BMW 5-Series Wagon 2004 Redesign

bmwseller

The die has been cast. That's it. There really is nothing more to wait for. There is no doubt in my mind that the car will be a home run for BMW. In fact I've sold a half dozen of them already. But, is that the test of a great car? If one really wants to know what the car is all about, go to your local center and drive the car, feel it. The car is an achievement in the sense of doing what a car is supposed to do. I feel the passion here at my center, at the point of the ultimate moment of truth. I hear the oohs, ahs, wows and laughter. You can't get that on your PC.

erickpl

A couple of points.

I can and will compare the 5 to the LS. Why? Because I can. Also, size-wise, and performance wise, the LS is comparable. The 5 is supposed to be the segment leader right? Okay then. The LS is targetting the same segment, so why can't Joe User? Your statements that the 5 and LS don't compare almost sounds like somebody trying to have another person avoid the comparison.

I saw the 5, and personally like it. I still want to drive the various versions though. But that does NOT mean I won't consider the LS. In my test drives of the LS to date, I've been very impressed with handling, quietness, comfort (those A/C seats are great!), and the price/value. I personally hate Fords, but will consider this one.

As a seller, you sure seem very sure of the 5's future. You should be promoting the advances in the 5 and encouraging these comparisons. Right now, you sound a bit uncertain.

I am hoping the 5 continues to be great for BMW and for the drivers. It is controversial. It is radical. It is innovative. For those reasons, it may succeed, but for those same reasons, it may be doomed.

-Paul

designman

bmwseller, although I disagree with you and question your sincerity, I do admire your enthusiasm... kind of like when Robert Preston sang "Trouble" and "76 Trombones" in Music Man. I wonder if there is a Shirley Jones around here who you can sweep off her feet. Better do it with an X5 though... seems she would have been the SUV type. ;-)

Kirstie_H

Yes, we need to be careful that we're not so over-the-top enthralled with any one brand, lest we be blinded to the shortcomings. Every car has faults, tho I continue on the quest to find the perfect vehicle.

joatmon

Just got back from the sales meeting, eh?

bmwseller

I walk the walk also. Hey, guys look at whatever car you want. Compare it to a ford, a kia, whatever. Give me some feedback about what the car drives like. GO DRIVE THE CAR!!! I wish that you could stop by here. I'd give you the "full meal deal" and treat you like a million bucks. It would be fun.
    In comparing the lincoln to the BMW consider what is most important to you!! And, make sure that you get absolutely the biggest discount possible because that thing has depreciation written all over it. Total cost of ownership in a 3 year time period is WAY less on a 'bimmer. Not to mention it takes better than two full car lengths more to stop the Ford in a 0 to 70 panic stop. Wouldn't want to rearend anyone.
    How 'bout those headlights, WOW!

mch2

With all due respect, I don't need to drive this car to know I don't want it. While I have no doubt that the car accelerates, handles, etc. like a dream, perhaps even better than my 2003 530i, the bottom line for me is I do not like the way the car looks, and that is not going to change. I do not remember ever changing my mind about whether a particular car appeals to me asthetically after first seeing it and I am absolutely certain that driving it won't change my mind. When I was buying my 530i I had a chance to drive a 7 series (long story) and it is truly an unbelievable car in terms of performance and comfort, totally first rate. In spite of my high regard for the cars abilities I still would never buy one because it's looks simply do not appeal to me.

bmwseller

the 2003 530i was a great selection, obviously. I have a '95 525i (my first 'bimmer) and I love the classic style. I always show it to my clients. It's a testament of durability and style. I wanted to trade it in and get the new one but can't quite pull the trigger. They are all just temporary in my mind. This new 5 is getting a BIG response. Either negative or positve as the old cliche' goes ,and in this sense I believe is appropriate, 'there is no such thing as bad publicity'.

ateixeira

That could be a good marketing strategy: blind fold customers! They'd all buy. Just don't let them see the styling first. ;-)

-juice

beemer4me

controversy over styling when the E39 was introduced? I wasn't in the market for one when it was introduced so I can't remember- think I was still pricing out used Honda Civics back then! All I can say about the present situation is :BMW better be very careful here about losing its current customers and maintaining its aura of class and style. BMW has a built up a gold mine here I tell you- I bought my first BMW (530) back in June and since then, owners of waaay more expensive autos ( Denali's, Eddie Bauer Expeditions, etc) have asked me how I was able to afford a BMW.

joatmon

Hey, I love BMWs. Have an 03 530i, wife has 03 X5 and my son has an 03 540i6. I'm sold on 'em.

Now that we have that out of the way, my concerns:

1. Styling doesn't say, "work 2 jobs and skip lunch to own me". It's ok, notice that's a small ok. A year old E60 will have more door dings than a 15 year old has pimples. That stuff may work on a Z4, but not on the family sedan.

2. Lots of new techno stuff. Given the track record of BMW's introduction of new gizmos, I'm at least 2, maybe 3 years away, from where I'd jump on board. But, that's why I'm driving an 03.

3. The BMW 6 rules, but needs poked out to 3.3 or even 3.6 liters. When the Altima, Accord and Mazda 6 have more grunt, it doesn't work. The E39 was seven years old, so it was forgiven. BMW needs to look at Nissan, Honda and Mazda, not as competitors, but as the low water mark of performance expectations.

I may live with a car from 3 to 7 years. I just don't like buying a $50k that doesn't have the torque of the pizza delivery guy driving the Altima. Yeah, I know, them's BMW horses and all. But, I expected better from a "new" car from the "ultimate driving machine" people.

/end rant

/start rest of life

bmwmrc

I had an oxford green 525i with premium wheels, 6 cd changer and absolutely loved the classic lines and the car. I now have a 2003 525i and love my new car. As much as I loved my first bimmer, the 2003 car beats my last one in refinement and handling. I just wished the car had a tad bit more HP from a dead start. But once I'm up to speed this car flies! BTW I have the PP, SP, 6 cd changer and xenon lights.

I personally think the style for me was equal. Now, the 2004?---I just don't know. Aesthetically, the car does absolutely nothing form me. I will wait and see.

ergozoom

I'd be more than happy to discuss design/and or cars with you. However, without even knowing who I am, or what I do, or what cars I have, you seem to have categorized me in a certain way. This, my friend, disqualifies you from continuing this dialogue.

Have fun at Bangle bashing.

bmwseller

Looking at the sedans in this segment than which would we rank 1st for exterior styling.

Not the Jag.....it's old fashioned and a lot of the components (taillights, door handles, trunk) are really not up to par for what you expect in this class. Back end looks like a Taurus.

Not the Lexus GS430.....atttractive but uninspiring maybe even boring. Fit and finish is good but it does little to distinguish itself. Headlights are cheap looking in a way which is surprising with fat clumsy-looking rubber seals sticking out awkwardly and the lower reflector looks like someone just stuck it on the car. nit picking, maybe but blah..

Not the Cadillac.....almost a cool shape but that front grille arrangement with the verticle headlights is almost as dumb as the rear with the blacked out area in the center. The closer you get the tackier it is.

Not the Mercedes E.....Long high hood is really sort of cool but it has nothing to accent it and ends up making me wonder what happened to the rest of the car. Tiny windows make the car look small and the trunk just drops off into nothing. A closer look leads me to question quality of hardware here (is that a durango door handle or a town and country trunk latch?) I want to like this car, too bad.

Not the Lincoln LS.....no no no

Any other suggestions?

mch2

My vote would go to the Mercedes E. Right now I think it is the best looking car in this class.

karmikan

E Class & A6, they just exude restraint, style and class. I seriously considered both earlier this year but the E39 matched them in design and handily beat them in driving dynamics

If I was in the market now, I'd buy the E320. The appearance of the E60 would stop me at the showroom door. This isn't Bangle bashing, just personal taste.

joatmon

Well, maybe old E34 or E39. The old E28 and E34 M5s are a blast to drive.

zhangqj

The best looking car is a 2 or 3-year old E39 M5. Cost about the same with the new E60, much better looking and a hell of a car itself.

x021627

i was waiting for the dealer to put my plates on my new '03 530 and they had a blue with tan interior 04 in front of the showroom door. I was looking at it from the back and thought of the new accord......hummmmm and for 52K.

tasillo

Stopped by my BMW dealer yesterday to eyeball the new 5 as a likely replacement for my '00 740iL. Three 530's in stock, drove the premium pkg/automatic w/Xenon's. About 51k. First impression, best driving car, ever!!! The new 6-speed automatic make great use of the 225 hp and for me makes the V-8 unnecessary. In 10 miles I was very impressed. But... I'm afraid BMW's continued use of I-Drive will eliminate BMW from future consideration. Any device that makes changing radio stations a mandate for pulling out the manual is absurd, in my book. I hated the new 7 for I-Drive as well as a cockpit that strayed too far from the driver oriented layout BMW had had for years. I thought the 5, with return to floor shift, etc., would allow me to overlook the I-Drive, but I can't.

Guess I'll have to reconsider the new E-class and perhaps the Audi A6 4.2 for the same money. I'll miss you, BMW.

rroyce10

...... Don't feel bad, your not alone .. the new "7" has been sitting on the lot's now for longer than a BMW dealer will ever admit to (only the Accountant knows) .. it's not a good thing when these dealers are looking at 6/9 months of expensive inventory and not going anywhere in a big fat hurry .. and the ones that have been sold are sadly being traded down the street for other models, which means their re-sale is going Plop Plop and no Fiz Fiz ...

       Right now, the dealers are waiting, hoping with baited breath that the New "5" will be a BMW vehicle that actually sells .. I guess we will hafta to see and hope it's not traveling down the road of the new 745 .....

                      Terry.

bjoye

I drive an '01 Steel Blue 525i with black interior and it's gorgeous. But my wife and I both LOVE the new 7's and new 5's. If you hate the new style, then don't buy it. Whining about it isn't going to change the shape of the cars rolling off the line this year. If enough people don't buy it because of looks, then they'll change it. But if it's selling and you're complaining, I'm quite sure it won't change. So why keep on with it? Why not just go find a better car?

karmikan

Take it easy tiger!

This thread is called "BMW 5-Series 2004 Redesign", ergo the discussion is about the E60. Some like it, some don't but that's the point of the discussion. This thread will end soon enough when the subject becomes tired.

oriente

In case you have not noticed, Edmunds New Cars has posted the data.
I hope BMW reconsiders and offers the items in the Sport Package as separate, individual options; I care about the Active Steering (provided it works as I think it does), but cant take any more Sport Suspensions or the silly run-flat monster tires, where the size is different for front/rear......just letting my frustration out!

merc1

Now wait a minute......your post #475 was spoke like a true salesman...come up ridiculous things about other cars to make the 5 look good. Don't you know that by not ridiculously slamming the compeition you'll earn the respect needed to sell this new "radical" 5-Series? The crack about the E-Class' trunk latch and door handle was just a plain lack of knowledge about the competition on your part.

M

speeds2much

With so many ppl disliking the E60 styling, thought I'd throw this out: Recently I discovered the Pontiac G6 prototype, and it's hands-down one of the best-looking exterior designs I've ever seen in a mid-sized sedan. Should be available in Fall 2004, complete with supercharged V-6 and AWD. Might give the BMW 5-series a real run for its money, esspecially if the economy/job market deteriorates in 2004.

bmwseller

when you sit in the back seat of the mushy-benz and look at the center console arrangement and the back of the seats it looks real Mopar to me. I opened the trunk of the mb and it felt like a cheap flimsy hard plastic piece that might pinch and the 'bimmer has a very smart rubber push pad that is definitely a better design.
I don't "ridiculously slam" the competition when I have a client here at my center, but it's fun in a forum such as this.

BMW should do OK against the pontiac. I think that the people who are truly potential buyers on a 5 will have the $$$ and drive right by every GM store when they are car shopping.

karmikan

I haven't agreed with many of the things you have said on this forum and you definitely apply a sales slant to your posts. However, you are enthusiastic about your product, take the time to read and submit to these forums and you seem to be a "car guy". This is refreshing in an industry sadly lacking in these qualities IMO.

Only time will tell if you're flogging a dead horse with the E60. Personally, I think that the E60 will be trumped by the E class MB, future Audis and others.

designman

Speeds2much, good post. The G6 exterior gets high marks on my sheet also. BMW had better hitchhike onto this minimal, rough-hewn look that is definitely the trend in autos for the near future. We already see it in present models, namely the A4, A6, G35, Maxima, 350Z, Altima, CTS, XLR and many SUVs.

I'm wondering if this look translates up to the larger, majestic sedans. However, I believe it works for the 3 and 5 series.

Check it out here:

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/detroit/highlights/h1- - - - - - - - - 3-pontiac-g6.html

http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/83142/page012.html

merc1

Thats pure salesman-based rhetoric. I see a lot on Pontiac in the new 5 myself.

M

designman

bmwseller, if you took $2K off MSRP for a newly designed BMW which hasn't even arrived for delivery, I would think it's over even though I could be very wrong (who cares). Actually, I thought they'd go until January at sticker.

Seems X5 and X3 are going to be bread winners. They're ugly too, but so are most SUVs, make that all SUVs. It's crystal ball time: Ford Freestyle FX and intelligently-designed "crossovers" (hate that term) will be a hit. Utility vehicles need lower weight, lower CGs and we are starting to see it. The convertible top enables them to do this without sacrificing utility. Would have expected more from the Germans in this area, but their marketing skills do not measure up to the engineering.

ateixeira

E class takes the cake. Porsche-influenced front, beautiful from every angle, looks expensive.

Next is the A6, even after this long. Inside Audi may even take 1st place.

Then comes the Volvo S80. They have a very nice corporate look, identifiable and purposeful. Not beautiful, but definitely not ugly.

Next I'd say Jaguar. Classical look for the conservatives.

Then Cadillac for the opposite reason, they're bold and very radical. The CTS-V looks sharp.

Then Saab's 9-5, a little quirky but off center and nice overall.

Then the GS430. Guigiaro did the last GS, then CALTY face-lifted it, and didn't quite get the details right.

The BMW 5, in my opinion, comes in last place. The eye brows up front with the fat rear end force you say "but she's got a great personality". Even inside it looks dull, the opposite of a cockpit feel you'd expect from a driver's car.

-juice

bmwseller

BMW doesn't control what the selling price is, the dealer does. We can sell any model for whatever we want to. This is Peoria, Illinois not Denver, San Diego or Brooklyn.

DESIGNMAN the return of the Amigo.

Suburu's are great in S. America. Plus, I might start taking the Pontiac a little more serious when I have a client tell me that they are considering one.

The eyebrows are so superior in form and function guys. Someone really get in there and compare just the headlights. We've got our winner!

msgreen

I wish BMW no ill. I have an E39 that I planned to trade on a new E60, but was initially put off by photos so waited to see the car in person. I must admit that the exterior was not as "bad" as in the pictures; however, I still don't like it. What really did it for me was the interior. The design team must have been on a three day binge before drawing that one up. The ergonomics alone are atrocious with poor switch placement, etc. No doubt there will be an initial "rush of sales" on any new bimmer, but let's see how things go after the first six months or so. I am sure that the new E60 is a wonderful road machine, it is just too bad that so many people, myself included are so turned off by the styling.

designman

Juice, LOL. Right on the money! Good post.

manybmws

I owned a '99 528i and now an '03 530i. From what I am seeing of the performance tests of the '04 530i it seems like the car may be slower by up to .5 seconds than an '03.

Car mags should do a comparison between the two cars :-)

karmikan

The November edition of Automobile mag has short reviews of the Aston Martin DB9 "The DB9's exterior is elegant but has definite DB7 overtones..." and the Ferrari 360 Modena "...four years old yet still looks fresh..."

Got all worked up over the sheer beauty of these rolling works of art. I needed to take the equivalent of a cold shower by looking at pics of the E60. Whew!

bmwmrc

Here are my impressions of the new 2004 530i. In person, the side body panels has a muscular look to it, while the "Dame Edna" eyebrow light cluster is less pronounced than the pictures, but still not as aesthetically pleasing as I think it should be. The pointed up corners of the light cluster was IMO, unnecessary.

The back of the car design looks like an afterthought. A cross between a Honda and a Subaru. In person, the trunklid still looks bad, just the way it looked in the numerous pictures I've viewed. Not too long ago, I read an article in Automobile magazine, where Bangle was quoted as saying "The 5 series looks better in lighter colors, while the 7 series looks better in darker hues." Well, I would have to disagree with his assessment of colors with the new 5 series. I saw two new 5's. One was jet black and the other one was titanium silver. The black car looked much better in person than the lighter silver car. The black car also enhanced the front end of the vehicle, making the signature grills look less "Pontiac-like" than what I have seen in pictures. Overall, the exterior was OKAY, but nothing so wonderful and radical that I had to have this new generation 5.

What I was really disappointed in was the interior. I have a 2003 525i with PP, SP and xenon lights, and my car's interior feels larger, and the fit and finish seems better. I love the fact that there is wood surrounding the entire interior of my car. The new 5 has a thick wood enhancement across the lower middle of the dashboard and on the console, but that's it. The doors are leather and chrome, and I thought the quality was lacking. My business partner noticed one of the chrome door handles was already badly scratched. Other impressions of the interior: (1) the headliner seemed cheap, (2) more cupholders, which is good, but the one for the driver is misplaced badly, (3) the climate control is back to turn buttons on the dash, like my old 1995 5 series. I'm sure this has to do with the new I Drive, in that I sat in the driver's seat, but did not turn the vehicle on, (4) the back seat did not feel roomier than my back seat, nor did it real feel any wider, (5) the back armrest is nice with two large cupholders built in, and finally, (6) I liked the spaceousness of the trunk, which appeared to be slightly larger inside than the E39 version.

In sum, I was not very impressed with this new iteration of the 5 and I am thrilled that I pulled the trigger on a new 2003. I will test drive the car this Friday, when I drive several of the BMW models on behalf of the Susan Komen Breast Cancer fund. I will give you my impression of the drive quality after this Friday.

merc1

RE: Post # 494, exactly!

M

bmwseller

I expect those of you that just bought a 5 at the end of model cycle to love your cars and be confident that you made a great decision, and you did. After all, you just spent 40 grand or so who wants to go around thinking that you mande a 40 g mistake. It goes without saying that the car you bought is fabulous. If you were in the market today you may have a bit more of an open mind about the advancements in the new 5.....keep in mind also that this is the same company that built your car.
Having said that as an impartial expert in the field I can assure you that the new 5 is a better car. Better comfort, better roominess, better handling, better ergonomics, better technology, better safety, better style.
It's really the only car that's better than our old 5's.

ateixeira

Thanks, M.

I would add that among the wagons, the Audi Avants take the cake. From some angles the wagons look better than the sedans.

The Benz wagons aren't as nicely sorted as their sedan counterparts, but they're still OK.

Saab has a nice looking wagon, too.

Any non-camo pics of the new 5 wagon out there?

-juice

designman

A high-performance wagon with rear convertible top would be the ultimate total vehicle in my book. Totally agree with your Audi take. Problem is, my distrust in Audi reliability goes back to the early 70s and I'm not hearing what I would like from current Audi buyers. At half the price, the Outback suits. Would like to see more commitment here from BMW and Porsche. Cayenne and 90s excess... what a shame.

bmwseller

bmw wagon sales in the states are not good. A 'wagon' option might be X3 which should arrive at dealers the day after thanksgiving (demo models). To me it looks like a wagon anyway and no doubt will be the segment leader in performance, safety and technology. I like what I've seen so far.

ateixeira

Price shop an X5 and a 5er wagon, though, and the wagon is a better value. It also handles and performs better, IMO.

Bless BMW for offering wagons here, they are all too rare.

I drove them back-to-back at an event where they were donating money to that cancer foundation for every mile you drove. I sampled every car they had. Purely for charitable purposes, of course! ;-)

-juice

bmwseller

remains to be seen if E60 wagon will be available in the states. Correct, juice, it's a dynamite car and looks incredible with sport pk. They are a good value upon purchase but a lot of dealers will turn and run if someone wants to trade one in. At auction they are significantly cheaper than comparable sedans.

joatmon

Re: Price shop an X5 and a 5er wagon, though, and the wagon is a better value. It also handles and performs better, IMO.

I like the 5 wagon, and I would like it even more if they would put the 3.0 liter in it. The wagon handles better than the X5, but the X5 is superior to the E39 wagon in terms of roominess and hauling kids and all the obligatory things that go with them. Ever try to haul 2 kids across town w/o cupholders?

Just MHO. Buy and drive what you like,

Jack

bmwmrc

I am looking forward to test driving the new 5 this Friday, but I have to respectfully disagree that the new 5's "ergonomics" are better than my 2003. In fact I found the ergonomics to be very weak in head-to-head comparison and I love my interior and the fit and finish so much better than the new 5. To say that the new interior is a bit austere is putting it mildly. I HATE the side door treatments and the chrome. IMO, it cheapens the car.

I am willing however, to have an open mind still and look forward to driving the new car, especially testing out the new adaptive steering and the new and less complicated I-Drive system.

BTW, where is the central locking system button on the new car? I could not for the life of me find it in the cockpit. Is it attached to the key/driver's knob or I-Drive?

ateixeira

Cheaper than sedans used? Interesting. I'll keep that in mind...

haul 2 kids across town w/o cupholders?

I wouldn't dare. ;-)

-juice

mch2

bmwseller, you may be underestimating the level of dislike for the way this car looks and the degree to which those of us who bought 2003 5's are able to look at the new 5's objectively.

Obviously I cannot speak for other contributors to the board but I know I am being totally open minded. I bought my 530i at the end of July and my wife loved it so much she wanted one too but it just didn't make sense since her car was fairly new. Well as it turns out her car was destroyed by a large oak tree when Isabel rolled through Maryland and we are in the market today for a new car. The new 5 is NOT an option because of it's looks. We will either buy a 3 series (before those get screwed up as well) or the MB E320.

As I said in an earlier post I do not doubt that the new 5 may be superior in many respects but for 50k a car has simply got to look good. To buy a unattractive car because it performs well would be the same as preferring a 75 year old exotic dancer over a 25 year old because she is a "superior dancer". Looks count and sometimes they are the deciding factor.

Finally, if the car was a knockout I don't think anyone on this board would have any trouble acknowledging that, indeed I think we would all be looking forward to our next 5 series. As it is unless some drastic design changes are made to this car for many of us this will be our last new 5 series.

muddog

It's on the center dash, as it is with the MB E Series.

My wife likes the new 5, much better than the old one. It DOES have quite a bit more room (closer to my 2001 E 430).

But, my sister-in-law's 1998 BMW 540i Sport wagon is my all-time favorite rocket ship, uh, car.

It's in the eye of the beholder. I agree that if you don't like it, buy something else. (My $.02 psychology comment -- BMW lovers wanted so badly to love the new 5, aesthetically and technically, that the ones who don't like the looks are so disappointed that they are lashing out at Bangle and whoever else gets in their face here. They are just P-O'ed, and can't do anything about it . . . except complain here.)

MD