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Acura TSX
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If documented substantiation were available, it wouldn't be speculation. Neither you nor I have facts to draw conclusions either way. One can only assume (or not, depending on what you have experience with) that more stressed engines will have greater tolerance built into them. This does not mean the lower stress engine has no tolerance of its own.
Let me ask you this. What did Honda do in the 1980s that qualifies as innovation and technical marvel, that it lacks today?
Cars made to please the crowds, not the enthusiast.
Look again. TSX is not a crowd pleaser. It has a very targeted audience. In fact, so is the Element, as well as the S2000. Far more offerings than Honda did in the 1980s.
Other than the S2000 and NSX there are no lower priced RWD offerings. No V8 engines either.
I don't remember any Honda sold in the USA with V8 and/or RWD in the 1980s. For most of the 1990s, NSX was the only RWD car offered.
April 7th and the MRSP will be less than 35,000.
I asked if that means 34,900 ? but they would not commit...only that it will be less than 35,000 cdn.
I want to look at the TSX, but also will look at the '03 TL once the '04 comes out. I think there will be some deals to be had and the diff between a TL and TSX will not be much.
For a V6 Accord buyer, a fire-sale price on an '03 TL would be a major score.
Psychologically, I was just about to bite the bullet on the TSX, regardless of price. I just wanted one. THEN, I checked on my main alternative: an EX Accord 4, no leather. To my surprise, my ideal family car can now be had for a measly $19.8. So the extra paychecks now required for a perkier powerplant and better handling in the TSX (besides some minor bells and whistles) amount to somewhere north of $5,000, and perhaps as much as $7,000. That's a ton.
And for those wanting a V6, I saw an ad in the Sacramento Bee (CA)a few weeks ago for an Accord coupe EX VL-V6 for only $23,888. They might even be less now, don't know. Still, the point is, the Accord is getting discounted at the same time the TSX is coming out at full retail, not a great combo for those looking to choose between those two particular cars.
Yes, yes, I know crude oil is temporarily high because of the war. But what people might be unaware of is that gasoline inventories are at 8 year lows, and (at least over the next year) it's very unlikely we'll see the kind of price break we saw after the last gulf war. $1.75 (out here in CA) will probably be the new floor in price someday, not the $1.25 - 1.40 we were used to. You wanna play, you gotta pay...
Test drove a used Lexus IS300, didn't like size or price for such machine. A used Acura TL maybe my best bet; I'm test driving a 2000 on Saturday.
Another thing that concerns me about the TSX is Acura Dealers will try to get sticker price for a few months to begin with; also I don't want to pay for premium fuel. The Saab 9-3 has more space for 5 people than this TSX.
Who knows Acura may sell TSX for a great value; we will just wait and see.
If premium fuel is a concern, Saab, IS300 and TL will also expect it. As far as size is concerned, if 94-97 Accord was too small and the current Passat is too small, TSX would be small too.
As long as the leather/power seats/HIDs/Bose aren't of interest, not a bad option. You still get a moonroof and ABS and the normal power options.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Actually, the 3.2TL uses regular 87 octane fuel.
But the 3.2TL Type-s engine is a different story. With a compression ratio of 10.5 (like the TSX), this would definitely need premium fuel. Regular fuel should not be used in this engine.
The newest Accord V6 also has a high compression engine (ratio of 10.0 ?) and runs on regular fuel but it is equipped with sophisticated knock sensors that would compensate for the high compression by sensing the onset of knock and making appropriate adjustments. I would however, feel much more comfortable in putting premium fuel in such an engine.
Later...AH
Keep in mind, with yearly production of only 15,000 on a car with lots of pre-sales hype and sizzle, don't be surprised to see a temporary premium over sticker. But a sticker at 25.5K makes sense. Much more would only drive people to the TL, or somewhere else completely. Anybody else want to weigh in with a guess?
they said they will be getting the first one on april 5. will be there to test drive.
Honda J30A (Accord V6) and J35 (Odyssey/Pilot) now have 10.0:1 compression but are advertised with regular gasoline. If they have knock sensors, and the engine was designed to use premium grade gasoline, there may be improvement in output from the advertised numbers. The J35A in MDX also uses 10.00:1 compression and delivers 260 HP (compared to 240 HP in Odyssey/Pilot), however, recommended with premium grade.
Toyota has long used 10.0:1 and above compression, even in Camry (I-4 as well as V6), and recommendation has been regular or premium, depending on the car. The 3.0 liter V6 in Solara was rated at 200 HP (198 HP with LEV rating) using premium, and the same engine in Camry was rated at 194 HP (192 HP with LEV rating) using regular. Both engines, I believe, used 10.00:1 compression.
Acura TL/CL Type-S and TSX engines have 10.5:1 compression. BMW's 2.5 and 3.0 engines also use 10.5:1 compression. S2000's F20C uses 11.7:1 in Japan and Middle East (for 250 HP/161 lb.-ft) and 11.3:1 (240 HP/153 lb.-ft) in most markets including NA.
Sport Package (Upgraded suspension, tires and 17" wheel)
Stability Control
Xenon Lamps
Upgraded Audio System
and skimped on minor things that people don't notice like stainless steel plate for door sill, improved leather seats (Accord's seats would have worked too), two power outlets (instead of one) etc.?
These could have allowed Acura to keep the base price low by about $3K (or $23.5K)? That would be about as much as Accord EX-L.
Adding xenon lamps, obviously mean that it would be replacing halogen lamps, that would have been present otherwise. If Halogen lamps with all its associated hardware, costs $1000, then the xenons would probably add another $200 to the price.
Implementing Stability control would not amount to a hill of beans, if the underlying ABS and the speed sensors on all 4 wheels are available, like with the Honda Accord EX 4-cylinder. Additional requirements would be for the CPU, to consider these additional parameters and brake individual wheels or cut engine power accordingly. Assuming 4-wheel ABS is available, stability control should be a simple thing to implement and should not cost any significant amount.
Again, when going out into the market for audio systems, unless these are high-end systems like Nakamichi or Mark Levinson (Bose is not a high-end system), wattage does not add any significant amount to the cost. Cost results from putting in a high-end brand. The TSX is not even equipped with a Bose system, let alone something high-end.
Again, "sport package" is replacing hardware that would otherwise have been there, with slightly different hardware, that would change the overall effect to either "sport" or "luxury" or "soft riding" or whatever. There is no significant hardware addition involved here.
What in my estimation would add real cost to the automaker ?
a) Adding a Torsen LSD or something similar to the ATTS of the Honda Prelude SH. Expensive piece of hardware here !!
b) Adding additional power features like 10-way power seats. Involves the additions of motors, electric connections etc., which would essentially replace rudimentary hand controls. Again, adds to "real cost".
c) Putting in high-end and light, forged alloy wheels. Adding Forged wheels by themselves would add to a price jump. The only Honda that employs forged wheels is the $88,000 NSX. Cast alloy 16" wheels being replaced with cast alloy 17" wheels would have a differential of around $50 for the automaker. Replacing cast alloy 16" wheels with Forged 17" wheels, would add at least $1500 to the price. The TSX 17" wheels are not forged and are cast-alloy.
Assuming that there is no price difference between a 5-speed Automatic TSX and a 6-speed manual TSX, the TSX (with Navigation) should cost around $1500 more than a 4-cylinder Honda Accord EX with leather/Navigation. At around $27,500, a TSX with Navigation would make sense. Reduce $2000 for a TSX without a Navigation system ($25,500). Anything more than that is paying too much. JMHO.
Later...AH
Oh, no question they could sell a TON of these things at $22 - 24, but then what happens to Accord sales? Toast.
No, I think they did it right. They want to squeeze into this modestly upscale 25K semi-sports-but-still-practical-car niche.
See you guys on the test track next week.
Later...AH
More to the point, when the board recently posted the internal dimensions, the TSX front seat room was nearly identical to that of the Accord's, with only the rear suffering from a 2" chop, which is incidental. (Let the kids back there suffer, as they're thrown from side to side!)
In any event, let's check the dimensions again. The word seems to be out that the TSX is essentially a jazzed up Accord from another country. Question is, how much more should we pay for the bells, whistles and facelift?
To me, two grand (from EX land) not five.
YMWV
The European Accord is shorter in wheelbase ond overall length than the US Accord. And since the TSX is essentially a Euro. Accord, the TSX is slightly less roomy on the inside.
If it is Accord LX vs TSX, then the interior space is 103 cubic feet (Accord) vs 91 cubic feet (TSX). 12 additional cubic feet here !!
Accord EX vs TSX, it is 98cu.ft (Accord) vs 91cu.ft (TSX). This additional 7 cu.ft should be felt and seen, pretty easily.
In both cases, in addition to the above, the Accord has more trunk volume too. 14cu.Ft (Accord) vs 13cu.Ft (TSX).
As mentioned earlier, the TSX is very similar (near identical) to the Honda Civic in interior size, than the US-spec Honda Accord. The Honda Civic LX, DX etc. are roomier than the TSX and the Civic EX has a shade less room than the TSX - essentially near identical, since the TSX is slightly taller in the rear thus adding to a shade more space.
Later...AH
bbartlow1: for better or worse the txs promises to have a very different driving character. it's more of a face lifted euro accord.
which brings to ways the tsx could of been cheaper. did honda have to out of their way to revamp the interior dash so as to not look like the accord's inside? this is where the euro accord and domestic accord are almost identical. this is where a lot of the costs went to.
hunter -- I paid $895 for my Quaife LSD and another $580 to have it installed in my Prelude by the Honda dealer's shop (with factory warranty still intact).
In terms of actual expense, it takes a bit more labor to install a LSD (it has to be shimmed and adjusted for pre-load) than a standard diffy, but I would think it could be done as a stand-alone factory option for $1,000-1,300.
The helical LSD in the CL-S is essentially a Quaife unit without the name on it. The nice thing about the Quaife is that it's built to be nearly indestructible and is warrantied for the life of the car, even if used for competition.
Headroom: Accord 38.3/36.8 TSX 37.8/37.3
Legroom: Accord 42.6/36.8 TSX 42.4/34.4
Hiproom: Accord 54.6/53.5 TSX 54.4/54.4
Shoulder Room: Accord 56.9/56.1 TSX 55.4/53.4
So except for the 2" less in the rear, where's the big difference?
(Btw, in order to compare apples and apples, the EX with sunroof has only 97.7 total cu.ft., not 103)
However, after seeing the TSX at the Raleigh car show, I've realized that (a) the TSX's rear seat looks and feels quite small (despite what the numbers suggest, it felt smaller than the Passat's); and (b) the interior, while nicely appointed, still employs either fake wood or fake titanium trim. Sigh...if a VW can have real wood, why can't an Acura?
What it boils down to, is that "numbers" can be deceiving. The TSX is a compact and sportier car than the US-spec Accord. If you carry more than 1 "standard-sized" passenger on a regular basis, then the US-Accord would be a better bet. JMHO.
Later...AH
I pretty sure that you weren't referring to the STI and EVO, as they are AWD, 270+ hp beasts that make no excuses for their lack of frills.
By the way, have you sat in a Lexus IS300? Two more inches in the rear seat's leg room, would have done wonders for my knees.
"You tout the tuning of Ford's Focus and Mondeo chassis, claiming Ford often tunes their chassis better than Mazda, citing the Focus over the Protege and Mondeo over the '6. A reason for your high expectations of the Mazda3 is its chassis sharing with the next Focus, codeveloped by both Mazda and Ford."
There's no doubt the strut Protege's platform trails behind the Focus platform. When similar level of handling is achieved, the Protege can't match the Focus's ride comfort & perhaps even steering feedback. & as far as the 'bone Mazda6's platform...
"However, Ford is using the Mazda6 chassis for the next Mondeo. It isn't codeveloped- Ford is using Mazda's design. Does this hurt your confidence in Ford or raise your confidence in Mazda?"
To give the Mazda6's platform the benefit of the doubt, I search back the Aug '02 Top Gear group comparison, which ranked the Mondeo behind the Mazda6 - the winner of this comparison. Later issues also ranked the 6 behind the new (Euro)Accord.
They never said, dynamic wise, the Accord betters the 6, just equal overall. It's the Accord's everything else such as engine, refinement & comfier (front)seats that nudged the edge out.
I can see taking the road-contact-angle advantage of the 'bone system from an existing car as a step up. But at least Top Gear never said that the 6's got better steering feedback than Mondeo's. What they've said was "The Six isn't perfection. There's an initial lightness that the steering suffers from as you begin to turn in to a corner that we'd like to see dialled out.(This might or might not have been dialed out in the U.S. version, since some article mentioned that the U.S. 6 got pretty heavy steering at low speed.) Yet, once that passes, the steering is spot on. So too is the way the chassis holds its line and controls the body through the corner, and it doesn't matter how bumpy the road gets, the Six does a better job of dealing with it than even the Mondeo."
So the 6's 'bone platform handles bumpy corners better than Mondeo, which doesn't sound good, 'cause the Accord/TSX is suppose to do it even better.
So unless the 6's platform's suspension travel will increase to match the Accord/TSX level, the next Mondeo might be behind Honda in this area. But I think it's possible to increase the travel & pretty much keep the same platform, since the 'bone Civic's platform got a travel increment from the '95 to '96 transition.
The steering feedback of the next Mondeo might not be a problem as Ford might be able to do something about the steering system w/o altering the 6's platform design.
So looks like the "whole world"(Honda, Ford & Mazda) is only willing to offer 'bone front suspension in their cars mid-size & up.
Another thing, even the winner of this Aug '02 comparison - Mazda6 w/ 16" - got criticized "the cabin does let in too much road rumble."
Top Gear still prefers the Focus RS as their "2003 Car Of The Year" & the "Best Driver's Car". But this "race-track car" is too hard core for me.
Yes I have sat in an IS300. I'm 6'6' and ended up buying a used GS300. Which I'll love until the Infiniti G35 starts selling at a discount.
If you need more interior space, buy an Accord or a TL. Many people do want that extra interior capacity. Which is why Honda sells more than 400,000 units of those cars and only expects to sell 15K of the TSX.
Once again, this is NOT the Accord for the masses. It was not brought over to please everyone. This is the Accord for those who miss the SMALL vehicle with good HANDLING and who think that the V6 RUINED the car in the first place. Definitely a niche market.
If I want something with the room of a Chrysler LHS, i'll buy a barge.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
From the Automakers' view, quite a few of these features don't cost much.
Based on your argument, factory installed options should be pretty cheap. How much would it add to the cost of cars like 325, 9-3, IS300, A4, G35 etc. to add Sport Package, HID, Stability Control and upgraded audio? BTW, while TSX may not have a "brand name" system (like Bose, Mark Levinson or whatever), but it is still an upgrade, not just in wattage from about 160-180W in Accord to 360W. It is a different system with 8-speakers (compared to six in Accord).
To give this a perspective, the difference between base 325 ($28K) and loaded 325 ($35K) is $7K. That is about 25% of the base MSRP in options.
I thought the TSX was built on one of the Accord frames, so how much different can it be?
TSX shares the platform with the Accord so the underpinnings are identical. The difference is in terms of size and chassis tuning. American Accord, sold in North America, parts of Asia (Middle East, Pakistan, India, Thailand etc.) and may be in Australia is on the larger side of American midsize market. Cabin volume ranges from 98 cu. ft. (EX/EXV6) to 103 cu. ft. (DX/LX/LXV6). TSX, OTOH, is comparable in size to the four-cylinder Accord era, about the size of 1994-97 Accord EX (may be slightly larger) with 91 cu. ft. cabin volume. Without moon roof (not an option), the cabin volume would be around 95-96 cu. ft.
American Accord is six inches longer and 2 inches wider than TSX, and sits on nearly 3-inch longer wheelbase. (TSX and Accord Coupe have identical wheelbase).
While American Accord is tuned with a compromise between sport and comfort (Touring Suspension), TSX goes for sport. Honda, for some reason, chooses to differentiate tuning of Accords more in the Japanese market than anywhere else. In Japan, the Accord with 2.4 liter I-4 would be available as,
24T: "T" implies touring package, and the chassis tuning resembles American Accords.
24TL: This would be Accord 24T with luxury oriented appointments.
24S: "S" is for "Sport".
For TSX, Honda opted to combine features from 24TL and 24S. Without "S", it would be like another American Accord, with more horses but smaller size.
As for eating up sales on either side (Accord versus TSX) is concerned, the targeted volume for TSX is quite low, about 4% of the sales that Accord takes. And even if people choose one or the other car, they are still buying a Honda. This, however, gives American Honda an opportunity to increase overall sales of cars in certain price bracket. If Honda were selling 250K Accords per year, they would have a growth potential in terms of Accord sales. But with 400K Accords being sold out per year, a saturation point may have been attained. TSX would allow some growth, and even if it takes away 5K Accord buyers (one of them could be me) per year, instead of selling 400K Accords, they could now sell 410K Accords + TSX. There is growth, and there is a car with the potential to compete in a higher price class with trims that may be launched in future.
Just out of curiosity, what are the interior volume measurements for the 3 series, A4, and IS300? The new Civic has a big interior. I'm willing to bet it matches those cars as well.
Cabin Volume/Trunk Volume without moon roof in Cubic Feet:
Civic: 91.4/12.9
325: 90.8/10.7
A4: 90.1/13.4
IS300: 89.2/10.1
Civic has more room than 325, A4 or IS300. Trunk is also larger except when compared to A4. BTW, BMW M5 edges out Civic in terms of interior volume (92.5 cu. ft) but it has moon roof standard. Trunk is smaller though, at 11.1 cu. ft.
TSX (non-nav): $26,990 w/ dest
TSX w/ nav: $28,990 w/dest
Please see the following URL to get the details. http://www.clubtsx.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1178