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Acura TSX
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Anyway, here are my initial impressions:
The interior is what everyone seems to be saying, refined, comfortable, well-crafted, and stylish despite the use of faux materials (plood in this case). The front seats were very comfortable. As good as the new Accord. I'm 6'2" and 215lbs for reference. There was absolutely no issue with headroom, which came as a surprise to me (my head is too close to the roof in my TL). Visibility seems good in all directions. The back seat is snug, but not uncomfortable. The trunk is narrow at the wheel wells, but deep enough. The back seats fold forward.
I have one interior gripe. Both the steering wheel controls and shifter knob are made to resemble the metallic accents used in the ebony and quartz interiors. IMHO, it doesn't look quite right with the wood trim on the dash (parchment interior). The wood looks fine, but one tap with a fingernail gives away it's plastic credentials. I agree with Nowakj66, the blue-tinted tach/speedo looks great. I love that. All other controls were typical Honda.
I was afraid that the bottom-hinged gas pedal would be too short for my big feet, but that was not an issue. The clutch wasn't stiff and the length of travel was respectably short. Obviously, the car wasn't going anywhere, but I rowed through the gears and got the expected sense of precision. Plenty of leg and knee room with space to shuffle my feet.
The exterior looks good. The rims are a bit simple looking, but their size in proportion to the car give it a serious profile. Painting the brake calipers might give the tires some style. The high beltline bears no resemblance to the Corrola. Up front, the lights give the face some personality. Once again the car was partly wrapped up, but I was miffed about the character line running from the tail lights to the front wheel well. In pictures, it appears to be quite distinctive. In real life, it's too subtle.
From the driver's seat, this car has it all over my TL. It's far more stylish and just as comfortable. The exterior is a toss up.
$34,800 would be $2,300 more than an Accord EX-V6 in Canada....
My sister was crazy about the Mini Cooper. But as soon as she discovered the auto version lacks p/u... Who's gonna pay that kind of $ w/ full of compromises!
It is a nice car with a distinctive profile. Another fellow was checking out the TSX with his girlfriend while I was at the dealer and he wanted the auto. To each his own.
For me the stick coupled with handling and refinement sets this apart from the V6 Accord.
I want a Japanese sedan with manual for under $30k. This just might be the pick of the litter.
The WRX is sportier but a little more basic interior with less dealer care. Every time a blue WRX sedan goes by, my adrenaline surges. That is one sweet driving car.
The Accord is a great value in 5 speed leather but it is missing a few things I would like -- one is Blue car with black interior! Others are homelink, traction control and VSA and a decent sound system.
I have yet to take an 04 Maxima SE 6 speed for a test drive but the 03 I drove was very comfortable. The Max would be more expensive and probably not the handler the TSX is. But have more room.
I have driven the Mazda 6 but found the interior to be a bit weak. Actually preferred the WRX interior since it was not trying to be fancy. Only drove the 4 which was disapointingly low power. Maybe the 6 cy would be better.
Infiniti G35 is RWD only and more expensive. I like it but RWD in midwest can be a drag. But I need to test that as well.
Am I missing any Japanese sedans under $30k with a stick? The Camry does not interest me but I suppose I should give it a try.
Do I sound like someone trying to talk himself into a TSX? :-)
At this point the Subaru WRX, Accord EX Leather, and TSX are the real contenders for my $.
Then don't use premium fuel. It's only required for maximum performance.
My Accord is great, and I even like the body alot, but I wish I had a sportier suspension and Bose system. I don't know that this car will only sell for sticker, when I got my Accord in Nov. the Navi was brand new and so hot and I got it $100 over invoice. I think you will find dealers willing to deal if you get them on the right days.
I like the car, but I don't think I like it that much.
The same would apply for TSX, or just about any car. The TSX auto tranny advantage is that it has five cogs (hence geared closer), it is geared shorter and comes with Sport Shift. But, Prelude (4-speed) and TL (5-speed), also had Sport Shift, right? Now, here is a big difference. The TSX's sport shift allows control even in the first gear that was not available in the other cars.
Another point that is often missed is that, although TSX gets its peak power (200 HP) at 6800 rpm (reasonably high), 170+ horses are on tap at about 5500 rpm and 180+ HP at 6000 rpm. If one could rev Accord V6 to 6250 rpm for 240 HP or Mazda6s to 6300 rpm for 220 HP, why would it be different for shorter geared (than the other two) for TSX?
Honda announced the TSX's MSRP as 26,490. I don't know if that includes destination.
Same price for manual and auto. Only option is the $2000 navigation system.
A little bit more than I had hoped for, but not terrible I guess.
Peter
"Four or five times a day, the tach gets past 5000 rpm when I merge onto a freeway or have to pass another vehicle." - Robertsmx
Geez, where do you have to drive? I've got a 3,200 lbs CR-V with only 146hp and 133 lb-ft. I drive rte 128 and 95 around Boston, but the only time the tach goes over 3,500 rpms is when I'm "having fun".
discount looks very good. Even you are taking a risk with the tranny!
Also, who knows what problems are you getting in with a new generation of Acura's?
I expect the TSX would suit me better. Decent, but not aggressive, performance until I ask for more. The power will be there when I want it, and only when I want it.
That is simply a misconception. One would have to rev to 6000 rpm to get 184 horses from BMW 325 and 170 horses from A4/1.8T. And then, there is gearing. Shorter gearing automatically takes care of the extra revving part.
Must post this quickly!
From Honda, S2000 is a performance car. TSX, is a near luxury sport sedan.
Which makes me wonder ... with such renewed interest in RWD as a better basic platform for handling, and BMW and MB doing quite getting folks to ante up a considerable premium for RWD's benefits, why the heck hasn't a mfg come up with a small, 4-cyl, <$25K RWD sports sedan?
The old-timers in this group may fondly remember the Datsun 510 and Opel Manta from the 70's as great examples of this breed, cars that were very popular 4-cyl RWD sports sedans. These were wonderful cars, but when FWD took over in the 80's, and SUVs/AWD took off in the 90's, somehow the concept of a light, great handling, moderate power, fuel-efficient relatively cheap RWD sports sedan got lost. We've got some great FWD cars out there and some expensive RWD cars out there, but no inexpensive RWD cars. BMW has flirted with 4-cyl 3-series here and there, but always says they can't get the price down enough. Ok, maybe THEY can't, but I bet Honda can.
If the TSX was RWD, I think we'd all be lining up in droves to buy one. It can't cost more to produce a RWD car than a FWD car - in fact, when FWD was first introduced, it was more expensive because transaxles and sophisticated front suspension systems were required rather than simple drive shafts and rear differentials.
I don't get it. Why doesn't somebody produce a RWD $25K TSX? The only explanation I can think of is that to produce a $25K sports sedan with adequate content, the mfgs have to start with $17K ecomony sedans, and they're all currently FWD. And you can't decontent cars like the 325i and IS300 sufficiently to get them cheap enough.
But I think someone could justify a new RWD economy sedan - they'd be the only ones in a huge market space.
- Mark
I think it's pretty obvious that comments here regarding performance are to be taken within the confines of the sporty near-luxury sedan segment. IMHO, there's no need to append every sentence describing performance attributes with, "...for a sedan", or "...for the price".
"It can't cost more to produce a RWD car than a FWD car" - Markjenn
Platform sharing. Yes, it would cost considerably more to develop a completely different chassis, manufacturing line, and parts sourcing for a single car. You'd have to make several cars on that platform to make it worth your while, or charge a whole lot for the thing.
Clearly, if the mfr. doesn't have any RWD platform, then it'll cost more.
robertsmx -- I'm not knocking the TSX's capabilities (which appear to be downright spectacular for a front-drive sedan), I just can't fully agree with chillenhonda's assertion that the TSX is "about the 6-speed, the 7100rpm redline, the handling, and the performance."
Like you said, it's a luxury sport sedan, not a performance car.
markjenn -- From the sound of it, the forthcoming BMW 1-Series will be right up your alley!
Better for Honda to start for scratch for a RWD platform, which could easily facilitate the incorporation of IMA or even *gasp* AWD. Having a platform flexible enough to use in various models and drivetrain configurations is the key to profitability.
True. Having a platform would help. S2000's chassis may be the closest thing from Honda to deliver a sport sedan, but its production line is already clogged up. It is manufactured on one of the most specialized production lines that Honda uses, alongside NSX, and it is a small facility. Interestingly, the facility is also used to manufacture the small volume Insight. With 12K S2000s, 5K Insights and a few hundred NSXs per year, there may not be enough room to develop another car. Insight may be relieved of its duties, soon, but we don't know which direction Honda is going to take with the NSX, or if they have bigger plans.
That said, S2000 platform was probably developed exclusively for a sportster, and may not be practical enough for a near luxury sport sedan, at least at a reasonable price. Honda may be thinking on the lines of AWD cars in the near future. The recent prototypes tend to suggest that. That may not only satisfy a typical enthusiast's needs, but people living in the snow belt may also remain interested, like they are with Audi's offerings.
Just what we need, more electronic nannies.
Even the newest('87) & most expensive rwd Corolla GT-S only got solid rear axle. Only after '87, the rwd Volvos got ind rear, but only on their top-of-the-line models.
The upcoming 1-series is cool. It's 6" narrower than the 3-series.
VW is most likely fighting back w/ a "cheap" front engine/rwd Porsche.
A stripped IS200 should work. I doubt if the S2000 platform got enough suspension travel for decent comfort.
Yes it does. Flat torque curve = linear horsepower curve = more power at higher revs. Also, lower gearing is needed to make up for the (relatively) small displacement, low-torque engine, and upshifting negates that.
"You can go seriously fast in this car without realizing how fast you are going. Watch the speedometer, not the tach!!"
So are you saying the car is boring, that the car isolates the driver from the road, or both?
"I was hoping the TSX would be a 4-door Prelude. It's better."
Credibility... lost...
I hope to go test drive one of these this week or next, and I'll eat a sock if I agree with you on any of this.
Later...AH
Some background first--I'm 32 years old with a wife and a 1 year old daughter. We currently have an '01 V6 accord for family duty. I drive a "beater car" to work, while VERY occasionally driving my S2000 on sunny days. We had purchased the convertible before the kid came along, so basically the convertible sits now for long periods of time. When I first heard about the TSX, I was extremely interested. I thought, finally, a high revving 4 cyl. with a 6 speed manual, all with family friendly 4 doors! It looked promising as a car that could replace the now rarely driven S2000, while keeping driving fun and excitement at acceptable levels. For better or worse, here are my views on the TSX.
I test drove a light blue 6 speed, with Nav. Here are the positives:
Great fit and finish--At least on par with the S2000, and better than my '01 Accord. The body panel gaps are tight and even. Paint looked great.
The interior materials are impressive--I would say on par with VW/Audi, while the ergonomics handily beat the German manufacturers.
Looks better in person, than in photos. It has a very solid, buttoned down look to it, like the wind won't be able to push it around.
The engine is extremely smooth and creamy, and revs freely up to the redline. No coarseness here.
Very quiet interior, so "Lexus-like" that it leads to my negatives:
As it is being marketed as a "sports" sedan going up against BMW and Audi, I was expecting more of an engaging drive. The car is so isolated from everything around you (the road, the wind, the engine), that I just couldn't feel any "soul" coming from the car. I expect a rather "appliance" like experience in my family sedan Accord, but was expecting more from the sporty TSX.
The power felt underwhelming, considering I drove the 6-speed. I was again expecting more quickness. I occasionally revved it past 6000 rpm (not the best for the engine, I know), but never felt a great surge in power. In normal daily driving (i.e. revs staying below 4000rpm), my V6 accord feels (and probably is) faster, even though it has the same horsepower and is an automatic.
The weight of the car really plays against the driving experience. It's a heavy car, and there is no easy way around that. It really handles no differently dynamically from my Accord. Again, in daily driving circumstances, I feel the sporty setup of the TSX just doesn't shine out. Maybe on a test track the "sporty" suspension setup would prove more capable than the Accord.
The 6-speed shifts nicely enough (not as precisely as the S2000, but I doubt anything else does). However, at initial tip-in of the throttle at startup, there was an annoying hesitation. As I pressed down on the accelerator, there was a pause before the engine revs would catch up. This made smooth clutch releases tough, as the timing in letting the clutch out had to be "delayed" so as to let the revs catch up before full disengagement. Again, maybe I am spoiled by the instant throttle response of the S2000, but the TSX throttle still felt like it had a "glitch."
The price will be a negative, at least for a while. The saleperson said that the car was selling for sticker price. United Buying Service (UBS) lists the prices for all versions of the Accord at $160 over invoice, with no processing fees. That puts an EX-L 4cyl, at about 21k, while a V6 EX is about 24k. Assuming I could somehow get the dealer down a thousand off the TSX, the Accords are still 2-5 thousand cheaper. The driving dynamics and feature contents of the TSX don't separate it enough from the Accord to justify the price gap, especially if you insist on a manual tranny Accord (a 5k difference).
So, overall, you can see I was left feeling disappointed overall. I went in expecting to drive a sporty and engaging 4-door sedan, and left feeling like I had just driven my own Accord. When I get a chance, I intend on driving a manual V6 Mazda 6 (more power), and the BMW 325i (the "benchmark", according to the mags) in order to see if my expectations of a sports sedan are too inflated.
Again, sorry for the long post.
--Dave
Numerous reviews say that that the TSX and all new Acura models after the TSX will only have real wood, if any.
Low gearing is often not needed (it is quite tall in my Accord, and relatively taller in Prelude), higher redline can provide room for lower gearing. As for upshifts, it would still be lower than it would be, if it started tall.
BMW uses of short gearing, regardless of engine displacement. It helps in getting more effect out of any engine. In case of S2000, I wish Honda was a little more aggressive in gearing like they are with the new ITR. Overall drive ratio of ITR in first two gears is 15.55:1 and 10.10:1. In S2000, despite of having 6% more revs to play with, the overall drive ratios are 14.90:1 and 9.69:1 respectively, or about 4% taller. OTOH, BMW M3's Overall drive ratio in the first two gears are 15.00:1 (shorter than S2000) and 9.23:1 (taller than S2000).
So are you saying the car is boring, that the car isolates the driver from the road, or both?
I wouldn't associate refinement with isolation. These are two different things. Isolated driver may be as good as just sitting in the car instead of driving it. But without isolating the driver, refinement can come in the form of NVH suppression, and a linear power delivery from the engine. Prelude was more refined than Integra GS-R. That didn't equate to isolation, IMO and many have suggested that Prelude should have been an Acura, and Integra, a Honda. TSX is definitely an Acura.
The power curve from the TSX engine is apparently extremely linear, and people expecting a surge at so-called VTEC-switchover point are going to be disappointed.
http://www.clubtsx.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1137
Although it is EPA classified as a Compact, I found it to have more space than my 98 Accord listed as a Midsize. In my Accord, I have to set the seat as far back and down as I can. I had to adjust the seat forward at least 2" and raise it up in order to get into a comfortable driving position. I then sat in back with that adjustement and found as much room as in the Accord. The trunk seemed cavernous to me.
One thing I found/expected is that I was right at home in the driver's seat. The switch positions were all familiar easy to find. It was late and I wasn't able to test drive it.
The dealer did say they were selling at MSRP and had only 3 presold - all carbon gray. They had in stock 2 autos (silver and black) and 1 stick (blue). He also vaolunteered that the TL is going up a couple of notches in price and features - he said a dramatic departure from the current TL.
Varmint - the character line is subtle but IMHO noticeable. The doors look very tall - perhaps because there is no body side moulding to break it up. Overall, it has an agressive look.
The IS300? I was really looking forward to that car. Finally, near BMW performance but with Lexus reliability and service! But I'd have to put up with the styling. Ugh. I can't use the adjective that I'd like to describe those awful tailights. I hate the chronograph instrument panel. The interior in general looks cheap. And the rear seat is very, very small.
The G35 looked interesting. But I don't like the styling nor the interior, and Infiniti has had a few teething problems with it.
I have seen projected speeds for the Auto 5AT model on Club TSX, and it is quite disappointing. I was not expecting a rocket ship, but a 0-60 time of 8.3? I sure hope that projection is wrong, because thats seems awefully slow to me. Sheesh a 1992 Altima 4 banger had a better time of 8.2!