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Acura TSX
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Honda is offering a few variations of two engines in Japan. K20A (2.0 liter I-4 used in RSX) is the base engine, and good for 155 HP /141 lb.-ft. The upper trims of the car are designated as 24T, 24TL and 24S. These trims use the K24A (2.4 liter I-4, used in American Accord, CRV) and are rated at 200 HP / 171 lb.-ft (FWD) and 190 HP / 168 lb.-ft (AWD). This is also the engine used in the Accord Wagon. And then there is the lightweight performance version, Euro-R, using the K20A for 220 HP / 152 lb.-ft.
Acura TSX uses the K24A.
Features:
Accord 24T is the basic version with 'touring' chassis tuning. The springs are softer, wheels are smaller (same as American Accord with 16 inch rims), and comes with options. Accord 24TL is the luxury variation of 24T (Touring Luxury), with long list of standard features and some new optional features (adaptive cruise control, electronic card entry system, lane management system etc.).
Accord 24S is 'Sport' equivalent of 24T. The chassis tuning is for performance and apparently, it uses the same setup as Euro-R. This comes with 17-inch rims.
None of the 24-series Accords are offered with manual transmission.
Accord Euro-R is also reasonably equipped, but it is the performance version with about 150-200 lb. off the curb weight and the screaming engine from Integra Type-R (220 HP @ 8000 rpm, 152 lb.-ft @ 6000 rpm). 6-speed manual transmission (also shared with the ITR) is standard as no automatic transmission is offered.
Acura TSX would be along the lines of combining 24TL and 24S, or in other words, 24TL-S. The only other major difference is that the Japanese Accords use electric power steering instead of the conventional power steering.
In Europe, Honda is selling an Accord Type-S (with K24A delivering 190 HP, 164 lb.-ft via 6-speed manual or 5-speed auto), but its Type-S package is more about cosmetics than chassis tuning. In other words, sport package is not a factory option in Europe at this time.
I hope this answers your question.
European Accord took the honors in the midsize (medium) category.
Kinda funny given that the TSX version fills a slot not unlike the old Vigor.
First I have to say that it was the best Acura dealership experience I have ever had. I called ahead, was greeted promptly, and treated courteously. I was told immediately that they are the only dealership in the area not charging a premium over MSRP, and they are willing to throw in small extras to seal the deal.
Now the car...I liked the TSX a lot. It is very handsome in person, and the interior is very high quality and attractive, although a few cheap plastic trim pieces in unimportant areas is a sign of cost cutting, but perfectly acceptable.
The car is faster than I was expecting based on some other reports...about 7 secs to 60 by my seat of the pants. It is adequate below 3000 RPM but has good power above that...and it is a sweet, easy revving engine.
Handling was very flat, with just a hint of oversteer (yes, oversteer) when I took a decreasing radius on-ramp at about 8/10ths. It felt solid and tight, and did not feel like a "heavy" car.
The only real negative (and it's a pretty big one to me) is that the TSX didn't excite me. It does everything very well, and is a good value for the money, but it is uninspiring. It looks, sounds, shifts, feels, rides, and corners like a well put together Honda Accord...which in fact, it is.
It's a terrific, sporty sedan that does everything well and on paper, beats every other <$30K car in this class. It just doesn't have any soul.
Still, at $27,000 for a car with this level of performance, features, and quality, it may be hard to pass up.
Varmint - I hope you can do that. I will say that, at $27,000, the TSX immediately knocked the 9-3 and A4 off my list.
This is the first time I had seen that the Euro Accord has a wagon version. Now I've got another excuse to remain on the fence - waiting for Acura to import the wagon. Could be a long wait.
- Mark
M
I think you hit it on the head when you said "the TSX didn't excite me. It does everything very well, and is a good value for the money, but it is uninspiring." Even though I did like it, I still wanted to like it more than I did. Didn't have the "I WANT this car" feeling after driving it. Try driving an A4 quattro, I preferred it but for more a couple more $K.
Why bother buying an expensive, high-winding engine and not get all you can from it? You can run less than 91 octane in my Prelude, too, and it saps the power. For the difference of ~$3.00 per tank, it's an example of being penny wise and pound foolish.
Why not go for some other engine that is designed for regular, if that is an important criteria ??
Later...AH
TSX's engine is running 10.5:1 compression, which has become a norm to some extent. Very high compression engines (like 11.0+:1 used in S2000, M3 etc.) may not even be recommended with regular grade, premium only.
That said, I wouldn't mind premium grade. TSX/auto is rated at 23/32 mpg. Assuming mixed driving (50-50) to get 27.5 mpg, 1000 mile would cost $55 here in Texas using regular (87 octane @ $1.50/g), and $61 using premium (93 octane @ $1.70/g). Likewise, Accord V6 (21/30 mpg) would cost $59 with regular, negligible difference.
Depending on how much the engine management system adjusts the ignition advance to operate under the knock threshold, we could have an engine rated at 200Hp, possibly operating at 145-160HP, with regular fuel, if the engine management system is designed to prevent any knock whatsoever from happening (I think Honda being a concervative company, certainly would go this route than have failing engines). Now the question is, whether it is designed to operate "a bit under the knock threshold" or "safely under the knock threshold" or "well under the knock threshold for longevity of the engine" ???
I think it is advisable to stick with premium, if an engine is designed for it. Putting regular in, in an emergency (and driving moderately with the regular in the car) is a different matter altogether.
Later...AH
Engines knock under hot/high-power situations, so there are scenarios where you don't need all the performance the engine can deliver (e.g. a long freeway drone at moderate speeds) so you could use regular, save some money, and there would be no consequence.
But in general, paying more for a high-performance car so that you can make it run like a cheaper low-performance car makes little sense to me. Having said this, many people spend huge premiums to purchase cars with capabilities totally beyond their usage ... for example, most of the people buying Hummers these days.
- Mark
Stock HP: 271HP (at the crank as per specs)
Dyno-test in Michigan: 240HP (at the wheels)
Dyno-test in California: 188HP (at the wheels)
In both the Michigan and the California tests, multiple cars were tested and all of them yielded their HP ratings within a couple of HP to each other, thus eliminating any vehicle variances.
From 271HP, a loss of 31hp at the wheels (in the Michigan test) was a normal situation, due to driveline losses.
But at 188hp at the wheels in California, there was a driveline loss of 83hp, which was a lot.
The reason ?
93 Octane premium available in Michigan vs 91 Octane premium in California. The engine management system had adjusted the ignition advance aggressively to counter the lower octane rating (to protect the engine), since the EVO was a high-strung engine made for running at the highest octane rating possible.
Later...AH
I didn't care that much about the engine power. I wouldn't have compared the TSX to the four-cylinder Accord, because that model doesn't come with curtain airbags.
I ended up with the Accord EX-V6 because it provided about the same safety features as the TSX for, in my case, about $4000 less.
I never considered Passat/Audi (reliability) or Mazda (just didn't). Camry was out due to poor side impact ratings.
Just pointing out that some comparisons are made for reasons other than horsepower and torque.
How did you get below invoice pricing?
It's a waste of energy compressing at high ratio then wait till the piston drops before the ignition. What for? Both power & fuel economy are ruined.
Unless you calculate the price-difference of the high-octane fuel as higher than the trade off.
Ooo..., see that Evol's whopping-over-50hp drop from 93 to 91 octane?
I had never been in an auto show, but I wait until March(I live in Atlanta) to see the car in person and in terms of styling I made my decision that day. I wait until the first week of April and I drove a white with parchment interior with navi and I finally was done looking for the car of my dreams(29,000 dream). I liked the brushed chrome trim better(plastic) but I felt that I could not handle a black leather interior and the quartz looks too gray/blue to me.
Came back a few days later and the same guy start the tedious process of negotiations. I was aware that I was going to loose money on the G20, but I didn't want to loose that much, so I left that day with no car, no problem. I told the sales person that if they were not comming down on the price of the car I want more for my G20 and for him to call me with a better offer. He did call me but not with a better offer. So I went to another dealer and when a female sales person approach me about the car I was honest with her and I told her to not waste my time and hers if she could't do better. She gave me 800.00 more for my G20, the dealer manager took the white/parchment home, so they had to bring it back and I walk away that day with what I belive is one of the best car for the money.
I did consider the V-6 Accord with navi, but I have problems with the styling, and been so new, a year old and been sold at invoice or less. Also consider the A-4 but you can't get a well equipped one unless you go with a more powerful engine, and the navigation system in this one is one of the most sofisticated and with over 7,000,000 points of interests. Besides been a navi with voice reconition system, it has and advance trip computer, you can store up to 100 personal names, addresses with phone numbers per user(two users) and the system will take you to those places. I'm a designer and I have to go to at least 15 times a month to clients homes,also it has a calculator, etc and the list go on and on. In terms of fuel economy in the city/freeway I'm getting 24 miles a gallon, and I took it to Callaway Gardens, 94 miles mostly on the freeway and it gave me 33.4 miles a gallon. I could go to Orlando 440 miles away and not even fill the tank once, that's were my saving are.
The future in the cars are in the information computers with navi like this one. So I don't think this is unnecessary like some of you belive and until few years ago were paying so much money for a 1.8 litter BMW with not even a single CD player or power seats, at that point you guys called it a gadget and today a 6-cd changer is a selling/buying point. Trust me this is a fun car.
Did the lack of VSA in Accord concern you? What is the exact configuration for your Accord?
Thanks,
Al
For some buyers, perhaps. Personally, I've never understood the need for this feature in a car since there are more moving parts, making it more likely to fail than a single-disc player. And after all, you can only listen to one CD at a time.
Congrats on your new car! It sounds like you'll be getting lots of use out of the Navi system.
I have a 98 GS300 with an glove-box-mounted 6-disc magazine. The thing is a total PITA.
With a single disk player, you can head out the door and grab a CD on the way. Pop it in and listen. When you get home, pop it back out, put it back in the jewel case and be done with it. I listen to my whole CD collection.
With the magazine changers, putting a disc in take several minutes and involves keeping little plastic trays oriented correctly in the magazine, making sure the disc is put in correctly, etc. It is such a PITA that I avoid doing it. Doing it in traffic would be the safety equivalent of drunk driving. So I attempt to pick six CDs that are good for a few weeks, but invariably, I get really tired of them all before I feel like changing them again. And when you change all six, you've got six jewel cases rattling around which invariably find their way back into the CD collection, meaning that you spend 15-minutes refiling CDs when you do a six-disc changeout. Or you leave the six jewel cases in the car where they love to rattle around in a cubby somewhere.
The in-dash changers like the TSX (without magazines) are probably a lot better and I assume they can be used like a single-disc changer. It would not matter to me a whit if the car didn't have the changer.
This is definitely one of those things where one person's passion is another's poison.
- Mark
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The difference would be there even if TSX used regular. The difference would be there if the buyer chose Accord V6/manual as well (which is advertised to use regular, but premium can be used for extra power). That said, TSX/manual and Accord I-4/manual are two very different cars. One is tuned for performance the other is not. And a lot of compact-economy cars would have tough time matching the mileage that one could get from Accord I-4, anyway.
Depending on how much the engine management system adjusts the ignition advance to operate under the knock threshold, we could have an engine rated at 200Hp, possibly operating at 145-160HP, with regular fuel
Output usually doesn't drop like a rock. 1999-2001 Odyssey was rated at 210 HP / 229 lb.-ft with premium (205 HP, 217 lb.-ft with regular), with its relatively low compression engine (9.6:1). With MY2002 changes, the compression was up to 10.0:1, gasoline recommendation was regular, and the output is 240 HP / 242 lb.-ft. Accord V6 with premium grade apparently delivers 250 HP, and the output drops to about 240 HP with regular.
Now the question is, whether it is designed to operate "a bit under the knock threshold" or "safely under the knock threshold" or "well under the knock threshold for longevity of the engine" ???
I would say, an automaker like Honda, who takes pride in its engines, will have it all figured out. There is no need to panic unless they suggest against something and we choose to not follow. If they say regular can be used, it CAN be used.
The reason ?
93 Octane premium available in Michigan vs 91 Octane premium in California. The engine management system had adjusted the ignition advance aggressively to counter the lower octane rating (to protect the engine), since the EVO was a high-strung engine made for running at the highest octane rating possible.
High strung or not, turbo engines (especially high pressure as it is in EVO) are more finicky about gasoline grade. Any higher, and racing fuel may be required. The effective compression runs several times higher than any normally aspirated engine.
Congratulations on your new purchase. One safety feature that differs is that Accord comes with traction control and TSX has stability control (traction + yaw control).
Did $23,400 you paid is inclusive of destination charge?
3449gabi
Congrats! Keep us posted of your experiences. Looks like you got one with NAV.
himiler
Personally, I've never understood the need for this feature in a car since there are more moving parts, making it more likely to fail than a single-disc player. And after all, you can only listen to one CD at a time.
Cars by themselves are not getting simpler. More features, more cylinders (!), more airbags and more is becoming less. As far as CD changers are concerned, while one can listen to only one CD at a time, it takes away the need to change as frequently as I have to (my 98 Accord came with single disc, and it took another two years before Honda offered 6-disc in-dash CD changer as a standard feature in EX/EXV6).
You see, here in Illinois, we don't have corners. We have long, straight roadways, and we have intersections with traffic lights, where you have to slow down anyway.
There is, therefore, no need for VSA. Traction control is helpful, though, since snow and ice can make even those long, straight roadways treacherous.
If I lived in Northern California, where I grew up, and was able to drive those twisty mountain roads, VSA would be an important feature. Here in the Land of Lincoln, however, it won't have much opportunity to help me out.
The difference would be there even if TSX used regular."
I believe EPA still shifts at their preset mph points regardless of the gear ratios, by assuming us drivers are too clumsy to adjust to the close-ratio box accordingly.
Therefore, TSX's real MT mpg shouldn't be that much lower than Accord's. But then, putting regular in the TSX should lower the mpg.
Because the brochure is trying to sell you something.
Well, that and it is recommended, just not required. They were most certainly written by different people with different ideas of what is acceptable- my guess. Just as some manufacturers say only to use their own brand oil filters, etc.
Come to think of it- how 'bout new cars recommending 5w-20 oil? They do that to boost mileage by a small fraction of a mile per gallon, but it actually isn't best for the engine. Similar situation- different people, with different motivations and experiences, will recommend different things.
In regards to CD changers- yuck.
I for one would be fine with the engine and gearing straight out of the Accord, or even better a true six speed (not a close ratio one) that is slightly tighter than the Accord, but still has a taller sixth gear.
It would be well worth it to me to have to shift down once in a while going up a long hill, if I would have a nice relaxed engine most of the time. The Automatic is barely over 2,000 rpm at 60 why must the manual be nearly 2,500?
If Acura wants to continue to use 6-spd. trannys, it would be wise to keep the first five cogs close-ratio and adopt a "highway crawler" overdrive.
OTOH, my Prelude is turning just over 4,000RPM @ 80MPH, so a busy engine doesn't bug me too much. But, were there an aftermarket 6-spd. with a tall overdrive available, I'd line up to buy it.
Given that Honda already has cars more oriented towards smoother freeway cruising, their decision to go more towards the close-ratio side is understandable and I think a good design decision.
Keep in mind that a car with a very tall high gear will require a lot of downshifting during routine passing maneuvers. Given that the engine doesn't have a great deal of torque below 3K and is smooth, I think a few extra revs on the highway, while making the car slightly more noisy, are probably a good price to pay for better response.
An E36 M3 is very responsive on the highway, but part of the reason is very short gearing. I believe it turns around 2700 RPM at 60 mph. If you have a smooth engine, it is not a big deal.
- Mark
Which is why I don't mind how busy my Prelude is in 5th gear. But, smooth or not, a busy engine is a thirsty engine.
A taller 6th cog in the TSX just makes sense to me, since it's not a "track car," and most hard acceleration is long since over by the time you get past 4th.