I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

Fascinating stuff. I have a couple show numbers of Autocar...great pics. Autocar was also 1/- back in the day. I'd love to find another big lot of these, but they are very uncommon in NA.

kyfdx

1946 Crosley convertible.... perfect restored condition.. about the size of an original Mini, or an early Honda car..

Some kind of early '30s Buick coupe... with a flying angel hood ornament.. classy

1901 Oldsmobile.. looks like a cart with seats and a steering wheel.. rare curved dash model..

Three other pre-1919 Oldsmobiles... getting dizzy by this time..

'35 Auburn boattail

1911(?) Pope-Toledo..

Some other Pope-XXXX car.. pre-1915

ZR-1 Corvette...stored since new.. only 75 miles

"MACHO" Turbo Trans-Am.. 1979.. Some sort of special tuner edition.. only 75 made..

'31 Model A

About 10-12 other "brass era" cars... I tried to take it all in, but was overwhelmed.... only had about 15 minutes to see all of it..

Sheww... I know I forgot something important in there..

Mr_Shiftright

Vrosley: First USA car I believe, that offered disc brakes....tiny little engine first made by welding flat sheets of metal together! Didn't work so well so they designed a casted engine.

Pope-Toledo: they used to make bicycles before they made cars...quite a few of the early cars started out life this way. Studebaker made wagons for the Civil War

Curved dash Olds: First U.S. car made in any substantial quantity

Auburn Boatail: One of the best American designs ever, and worth a bundle of money today. A classic style--simple but elegant and every part in harmony with every other part.

kyfdx

All of those were in one guy's basement... :surprise:

lemko

Shoot, if GTO hardtops are going for six figures, then my Dad should really be kicking himself for getting rid of the 1965 GTO convertible he had back around 1975.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that '65 convertible if it were correct, with all the right options, the right color, and really nicely restored, could pull $75,000 maybe in the right venue, but the somewhat ratty '67 hardtop with the 400 that someone mentioned is probably only worth $20,000 on a good day and more like $15,000 if the body is really that wavey. GTO prices vary wildly by model, year and of course options. Probably the early convertibles and the "judge" are the only ones that could conceivably see six figures in the future....if they are re-done to the highest standards...which includes frame-off, total parts indexing, PHS documents, and lots of NOS parts, etc. In other words, a real labor of love.

imidazol97

GTO I understand.

PHS? means?

NOS? means?

british_rover

NOS means New Old Stock. Basicly original parts that have been in storage somewhere for years and never been used.

PHS I am not sure on.

fintail

PHS - Pontiac Historical Society, I believe

cacarfiend

Caught a '62(?) Ferrari 250 GTO. It was yellow and had the three cut outs on the top of the front end. Trailered, with no hood, but in otherwise good shape. Snapped some pics with the cell phone.

Nice. So, pulling off the freeway I see three cars ahead a yellow 360 driving toward my neighborhood. Never seen it before. Certainly doesn't live there!

andre1969

that they don't go by the moniker "Pontiac Motor Society" :P I'll admit that I've joked a few times about having "PMD" on the hubcaps of my cars...at least they had the foresight to go with "Pontiac Motor Division" instead of "Pontiac Motor Subsidiary" or somthing like that.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh sorry for the jargon. Yep, everybody got those right.

You sometimes also see in classic car ads:

NOM - non-original motor

build sheet -- this is a document from the factory that workers sometimes stuff in the back seat area or paste to the top of the gas tank---it contains vital codes/clues as to what your car really is and what options were put on it. Worth $$$ if you can find it....like a treasure hunt!!

matching #s: This is a much abused term, since very few cars matched the engine # to the vin #....so matching numbers can also be interpreted as a) it has the right type of engine, trans, differential, manifold, alternator, distributor, etc., because the #s on these parts are correct for the year and model....but none of this stuff matches an actual VIN.

date-correct: this means that date codes on various castings pre-date the build date of the car. If you had an exhaust manifold dated 0206(Feb 6) but a car build date of Jan 2, you have a problem.

SOOOOOOO....when you see an $80K GTO, not only is it the most desirable model, year, and optioned car, but it probably has a build sheet, and all the components have been numbers-checked, date-checked, etc. Also the restoration will be perfect down to the last chromed screw on the glove box door, and often New Old Stock parts will be used---sometimes at staggering cost say for a NOS front bumper ($3,000???). Even the lenses and glass are all date correct, and teh stitching on the upholstery is perfectly matched to original in pattern, color and thickness of thread.

As you can see, it gets pretty loony, but these details separate the car you see selling for big bucks on Speedweek, and the one you see in your local pennysaver...even though they are the "same" car in year, make and model. Their values might be TEN times different.

I'll take the GTO from the city pound, thank you very much...

imidazol97

Thanks for the info to everyone for the definitions.

lemko

Well, imagine if GM bought Willys. Then the center caps would say "WMD."

Mr_Shiftright

"factory replacement motor" --- this could mean an actually correct motor for the car but one without the usual factory numbers---these replacement motors were sold to dealers to replace original motors under warranty way back when. Better than a NOM but not as good as a matching #s engine.

re-stamped "decked" motor -- this means that when the original engine was rebuilt, by shaving the heads and the block, they had to erase the serial numbers on the block. So they re-stamp them. Tricky business here, as they need proof of all this.

"front clip resto" -- this means the front fenders, grille, etc. are lifted off the car, and the engine removed, and the exposed frame and firewall are all restored; the rest of the chassis however, and the rest of the body, is left intact and merely cleaned up as best one can.

lemko

...I recall a guy doing a frame-up restoration of a 1957 Lincoln. The bare chassis and engine with gleaming new brake lines, etc. looked so nice, it was almost a shame to put the body back on it. I doubt so much care went into the car when it was originally built.

Mr_Shiftright

In 1957? Oh, assembly lines were WHAM BAM in those days.

It's funny you mention that...on rare occasions you will see a "survivor" from the 50s or early 60s, unrestored, untouched, and the judges TAKE POINTS OFF for the sloppy factory work--LOL! Aside from orange-peel, you'll often see some pretty weird panel gaps, and lots of goop, putty and imaginative welding.

Still, in all fairness, for the price you paid, those cars were pretty much worth it anyway.

And also to be fair, in those days there really was more of a difference between a Cadillac and a Chevrolet.

By the 1980s, this difference disappeared...a Cadillac was just a Chevrolet with more metal and padding....if that....

In 2006, it's amazing how nicely put together even the cheapest cars are (at least superficially).

andre1969

I think cars today, by and large, are WORSE when it comes to orange peel. Now I can spot it on my '57 DeSoto if I look at it in the right light, but in contrast I can often spot it on newer cars from a good 20-30 feet or more! I wonder if part of it could be that the paints these days have a deeper shine to them, and perhaps that exaggerates the orange peel?

Seems like the worst offenders these days are the domestics. GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Nissan's pretty bad, too, if my buddy's '06 Xterra is any indication. But again lighting seems to be key. In some lights they don't look so bad but in others they just look like they should have "Grown with Pride in Florida" stamped on them!

Mr_Shiftright

you could be right...I saw a Mustang the other day with like 56 miles on it and the orangepeel was really bad....all over....of course I kept my mouth shut to the new owner, but personally I would never have taken delivery of it.

british_rover

Peel is just a thing on modern cars now. Audi's seem to be the worst offenders from the german side of things. I have seen plenty of brand new ones with heavy, heavy orange peel. Certain colors on Rovers seem to get it worse then others and all of the slab sided pannels on them make it seem worse.

magnette

I can remember the first time I went to the London Motor Show at Earls Court, with my parents; 1964 - I was 8 and among the new cars my father wanted to see the Austin 1800 and the Vauxhall Victor 101 which had just been updated - he bought a Victor 101 estate after the show, so it was worth it (also that was the first car I ever drove,a few years later).
The show seemed huge to me, and I can remember taking home dozens of brochures...

Re the magazines, these turn up at car shows here but it is obviously more difficult when trying to fill gaps, not to buy a pile of duplicates. I carry a list of what I don't have, so I can cross off, but sometimes it is just a bundle tied up, and I've been caught once by someone who sold a boxful, but half of them had missing articles ie the road tests or something.

martian

I always liked these cars-they had a nice color scheme-charcoal black interior with white exterior, and a crisp design. Anyway, how long did Ford make this model? What are the chances of getting a good one today?

Mr_Shiftright

I think 1984--85 only. You see them for sale now and then, but nobody really cares about them to pay extra. So figure $4,000 should be plenty for a decent clean driver.

joe29001

Actually, $4,000 should buy three of them.

british_rover

mini cooper. It was dark and it passed me going the other way but there is no mistaking that shape and that small little body. I couldn't tell if it was a LHD or RHD mini it passed me too quickly.

It was a nice medium blue color.

Mr_Shiftright

I love the original MINI---what a kick to drive!

british_rover

One of my clients has a restored 1969 mini cooper S that is RHD. He also has a new MINI Cooper S. They are both painted in the same color scheme.

I haven't driven his mini cooper yet but he does need help taking his cars to car shows from time to time and I have offered up my services.

andre1969

but I think the Fila might have gone through 1986. One of my buddies back in college had an '86 T-bird and it was one of those upper trim levels. Can't remember if it was a Fila or Elan, though. It was really well-loaded with a power sunroof, power everything else, a really nice, upscale cloth interior, trip computer, etc. Only problem is it was stuck with the 120 hp 232 V-6. It was kind of a medium blue metallic color. It was a real pretty car.

By 1987 I think they went to the more familiar jumble of letters naming convention, like GL, LX, etc. And of course the Turbo Coupe.

I think one of these, or a Cougar, with the 302 might make a nice ride. I prefer GM's personal luxury coupes because they're roomier inside and fit me better, but it seems like Ford paid a bit more attention to details like interior quality, fit and finish, etc on the T-bird/Cougar back then than GM did with the Monte/Regal/Cutlass Supreme/Grand Prix.

Mr_Shiftright

By all means drive it. Personally I think an original Cooper S is the most fun of any car in the world to drive, on curvy public roads. My friend had a modified one we called "the wild mouse" and it was really ferocious. In the 60s, they gave Corvettes fits on tight tracks...if a MINI passed you on a twisty track, you never saw it again usually.

fintail

Today I've seen an original/restored 1935 Ford 2-door sedan, and a red Porsche 928 GTS.

Yesterday I spotted a beautiful diamond blue 560SEL on a car hauler with a group of modern cars.

fintail

I think one of the motor show issues I have is from 1964. LOTS of ad copy/press about that Victor in that issue and some others, must have been a very popular car.

Those magazines are so hard to find here, one wouldn't have to worry about a list...just buy em when you find em, maybe ebay the duplicates. I've heard of people selling the road tests individually, too.

british_rover

I did not spot this car but I drove a guy around in our 1959 Rover yesterday and caused a lot of stares and near accidents with people stopping/swerving to look at it.

For nearly 60 years old that thing does drive very well.

Mr_Shiftright

Spotted an Amphicar of all things leaving a yacht harbor (but it wasn't dripping water). First one I ever spotted "in the wild" just driving around.

Also spotted a very nice Triumph TR6 motoring smartly in the left lane of Highway 101---from behind, it looked so small and square. I guess my eyes have gotten used to modern shapes.

andys120

The chances are you saw a 250 GTO replica, I saw one myself last summer and it looked fairly convincing but no one drives a $3 million dollar car on the street. I think the replicas are made on 240/260Z chassis.

I saw a TR-4 parked downtown today wearing an unflattering coat of white paint and chromed wires.

Mr_Shiftright

$3 million? Try TEN million, for a real 250GTO! And you're right, no one would drive one down the street---but (god bless 'em) people do race them--at least "at speed" in display vintage racing!

british_rover

You might find this interesting...

Homemade amphicars part one.

and part two.

This guy has not loaded up part three yet.

andys120

Going up the highway yesterday I saw a p'up with a covered trailer rig pulled over to the side of the road. The back was open and I could see the 19" wire wheel and upright gas tank of a ca. 1949 MG-TC.

lemko

Andre, you've got to check out the October 2006 edition of Collectible Automobile. They've got a great article on the 1971-76 full-size Pontiacs. My old roommate from college had both a 1972 Catalina and a 1977 Bonneville.

jlawrence01

I guess that I have seen a few dozen Amphicars so the surprise factor is gone. Never really saw anyone that really likes the vehicle. Most always seem to be the person's "worst purchase".

When I was at the LBJ Ranch in Johnson City, TX, the tour guide related a satory that President Johnson would always take new staffers out in the Amphicar. He would drive to the top of a hill and "lose control" of the car, run down the hill and drive it into the river. The staffers unaware of the Amphicar would go into a panic screaming bloody murder.

andre1969

called "The Alligator People". It was kind of a cool movie if you don't expect too much. Anyway, there was an interesting vehicle in it, navigating throught the swamps. At first I thought it was an Amphicar, but when it emerged it looked like a scaled down version of a DUKW, with a single rear axle and based on something about Jeep-sized.

It looked an awful lot like this. Anybody have an idea of what it could've been? Just some old WW2 military vehicle that found its way into Hollywood's hands?

british_rover

There were some DUCKW versions of jeeps made in WWII.

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-armour/amphib/allied.htm





http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/4/Ford/GPA/

fintail

Out on a few-hundred mile trip over the weekend, and other than the GTS and 35 Ford I saw earlier, I saw almost nothing of interest. The roads were amazingly barren this lovely sunny weekend.

fintail

Oh yeah, and speaking of those old magazines...I was at my mother's house this weekend and sorted through some junk...in it I found a Citroen DS brochure ca. 1970, and an English language copy of the Japanese "Motor Magazine International" May 1974 - with tests on the Datsun 260, Toyota Carina 1600GT, Holden Monaro GTS 350, stories on the Honda CVCC/1500, Mazda RX4 and REAPS RX3, and Subaru 1200, among others.

fintail

I just remembered something I did see...at a yard sale I attended, there was an unrestored and very sound looking blue FJ40 Landcruiser parked at a neighboring house. It had a junky yard debris trailer hooked to it, so it appeared to still be used as a dump-run jalopy. I almost thought about looking at it closer, as the following for those seems to be really strong and growing.

Mr_Shiftright

You can get $15,000--$20,000 for a highly restored one, so they are now officially "second-tier collectibles".

fintail

That's a lot more than say, a fintail. I did like those Landcruisers when I was little...but I can't see myself taking one on. Sooner or later someone will rescue it, unless it has one of those idiot "I'll restore it someday" owners...the type who are too poor to restore it, but not poor enough to need the money from it. But at least they could clean it up.

chuck1959

a Chevrolet "Classic". Will someone please remind me about this car....I am drawing a blank. Also I saw a Bertone (Fiat) Spider with a hard top (was that a factory option? sitting in a driveway just rotting away! :sick:

altair4

It looked amazingly like this model:



even the same color. Saw it at the Waterworks shopping center near Fox Chapel, PA. It was in amazingly pristine condition.

The owner lowered its pneumatic suspension for me. Incredible amount of leg room in the backseat. Beautiful car!

Mr_Shiftright

They were amazing for their time, and this basic type of Citroen is often voted as one of the most significant cars of the 20th century by automotive journalists. Why? For 1955 (first year I believe of production for the "type") they offered aero styling, active hydraulic suspension, radial tires, disk brakes in a very comfortable package offering superior fuel mileage and good highway performance. It was perhaps the first truly "modern" car.

british_rover

It was also I think the car used by McCloud on the Highlander TV series. :surprise: