I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

lemko

...big 1969 Pontiac Catalina two-door hardtop in that familiar green. Car appeared to be in very nice shape. Also spotted a beige 1967 Ford Galaxie 500 two-door hardtop with black vinyl roof.

andre1969

did cars start switching over to dual master cylinders? I'm thinking it was 1967, but not sure. And that's kinda embarrassing because I had a '67 Newport and have a '67 Catalina, but I'll be danged if I can remember how the master cylinder looks. Actually, I keep picturing the Newport as having a single and the Catalina as having a dual!

My grandma's '85 LeSabre had almost total brake failure one morning, which prompted me to get rid of it. Up until then we were going to wait until the next emissions test and see how bad it was, and make the determination then on whether to get rid of it, but when the brakes failed, I decided that was the last straw...we weren't sinking any more money into it.

Luckily, I found out the brakes were gone while the car was parked. I had the car over at my condo, and one morning I went out to it to go to work, and when I pressed the brake pedal to put it into gear, it dropped right to the floor.

I did drive that car, brakeless, to my grandma's house. It actually wasn't that scary with enough planning. And since it had power brakes, if you pumped the pedal enough, you'd actually get a slight bit of pressure. I kept getting this mental image of Bugs Bunny saying "Lucky for me this thing had AIR brakes!" :surprise:

Basically, that trip just involved a lot of downshifting, and occasionally using the emergency brake. And I had a buddy drive ahead of me, in my Intrepid. I figured that if I was going to hit something, I'd rather it be one of mine!

seminole_kev

LOL Andre!

Actually, when I first purchase the ol' gal ('bout 3-4 years ago), the brakes didn't work (Front's (since replaced/upgraded) leaked big time). So I had to test drive it with the e-brake. But the thing is, the e-brake is on the left side of the driver, and it is a stick shift (which is to the driver right) and I found I'm just not that coordinated to steer, brake with left hand and shift with right! If it was with the shifter, I'd stood a fighting chance. I'm sure I looked more than silly trying to do all that at once with my feeble coordination! :surprise:

fintail

My fintail has dual circuit brakes...I think MB went to these in 62 or 63, but they were ahead of the pack in just about everything then.

Mr_Shiftright

1967 I think was when they were required by law but some cars had them earlier.

Yep, in most areas European automotive technology was about 10-15 years ahead of American in the 1960s....but we didn't need most of it so we didn't adopt it.

ncskibum

I spotted an late 60's VW minibus, the 21 window variety, followed by a 50's Korean War era jeep/willys. The jeep was following the VW to make sure that it got where it needed to be. No right doors on the VW and engine cover was propped open. Obviously a car in mid-refurbish.

andys120

Yep, in most areas European automotive technology was about 10-15 years ahead of American in the 1960s....but we didn't need most of it so we didn't adopt it

"European" didn't include the offshore islands, with a few exceptions British sports cars of the 60s were firmly rooted in 1930's technology.

seminole_kev

Well the Mk2 is a bit of both. Disc brakes all around and DOHC engine when it came out in 1959, but did have solid rear axle and Jag was woefully behind in the transmission department.

Mr_Shiftright

Well Jaguars were very advanced in the late 1940s but then they just stopped innovating is the problem. But the XK120 of 1949 was like a spaceship in people's eyes, like the Enzo is today, in shock value--but without the shock value of the price---it was a bargain. So picture a company producing an Enzo and selling it for the price of a Miata....well, maybe the price of a BMW 3 series.

ryan77300d

Can anyone tell me what year exactly the shift from 6 volt electrics to 12 volts was? I'm more interested in the European switch, as I'd imagine it was earlier than North Americas.

Thanks!

-Ryan

andre1969

I don't know about the Europeans, but the domestics pretty much all went 12-volt in 1956.

andys120

My 1965 VW Bug had a six volt battery tucked under the rear seat. Headlights and wipers were marginal. My next car, a '66 TR-4A had twelve volts, of course 12 English volts are more like 8 1/2 of ours.

Mr_Shiftright

Some Euro automakers did it very early and others much later. VW waited until 1967 I think.

fintail

This morning in the dawn light I saw a beautiful looking W108 (likely 280SE) sedan in the fast lane of I90, it was moving right along and looked brand new, almost certainly restored. It was black or dark brown...class all the way.

texases

Friend of mine has a '61 6-volt VW he bought in '62 - parks it on the ramp at work pointed downhill, has to use the coast start assist every few days.

Mr_Shiftright

Many people use special 8 volt batteries in their early Porsches and VWs (and Model A Fords). Works very well as a rule.

lemko

I'm not sure if I heard it here or not, but I recall a rumor about Mercedes considering going to a 42-volt system to handle all the accessories cars are acquiring these days.

I recall looking at a black 1950 Buick Roadmaster when I was in college. The car needed paint and the chrome was pitted, but the car ran well, the body was solid, and the interior was in fair condition. The seller only wanted $600, but even that was too much for a poor student. I'd love to have that opportunity today, but the seller would probably be asking $6,000 or more! Anyway, this car had a huge 6-volt battery that looked almost as big as one of those oil-filled space-heaters that look like an old-fashioned radiator.

texases

IIRC, several makers were looking at this about 5 years ago, but dropped it because of safety concerns (I guess 12V can't electrocute you, but 42V might, and at 42V you can establish a stable arc, leading to a greater fire hazard) combined with the improved electrical efficiency of some of the accessories.

oregonboy

My 1967 BMW 1600 was 6 volt, as was my '67 2000. The 2002 was 12 volt when intoduced in 1968 (I believe).

james

kyfdx

My '67 2000CS was a 12 volt... but, it had a '69 engine..

andre1969

this 1977 Bonneville is practically around the corner from me. I'd strongly consider getting this thing as a spare/beater car if it wasn't for the engine. I've always been taught to be afraid of the Pontiac 301. Very afraid! :surprise:

I think the one good thing about the 301 is that it uses the same transmission bolt pattern as the bigger engines, and a lot of other stuff bolts right up too, so if the engine blew it wouldn't be too hard to swap in a Pontiac 350 or 400. I guess a 455 would be pushing it with the existing transmission, which is probably a THM350, but I guess it could even be the little THM200 unit!

imidazol97

I didn't think the THM200 was used until nearly 1980... How early did it start showing up and start being used on eight cylinder models. It started with V6s IIRC.

fintail

Oddity

Freakshow

Unusual survivor, it NEEDS those stock caps or better yet the odd factory wheels I recall

Someone needs to take the hint

This has some interest

Bidding seems high even given it's a high option car

For such a dreary time car-wise, this isn't horrible

Steep, but it has some charm

Yeah, I am sure it will be pretty when (if) restored, but come on

MBs only 4 door HT, and a fantastic example at that, I like it

End of an era (not saying that's a bad thing

Thse can't be common

imidazol97

Last of Fintail's posts...
It is called a 1983 Cutlass, but it's a Ciera... great cars.

This is a Cutlass:


This is a Ciera? Right?


It doesn't work in transmission. Weren't there problems with nylon seals on shafts that wore and needed replacing on some of the early transmissions in transverse mounted engine cars?

andys120

Nice crop this week. The Italia/Torino is nice especially with the Ferrari like 5-spoke alloys.

The H/T Adenauer is hot! Rerfresh my memory, were those all H/Ts or mostly pillared?

fintail

I saw the ultimate today.

I am at work for a bit, and my office building looks over I-90, a major road here. Traffic is light, and it is raining lightly. What do I see driving eastbound? A Mercedes 300SL GULLWING. Silver. In the rain. I am still shocked. It looked right too, I really don't think it was a fake.

fintail

The earlier Adenauers were a more rounded pillared design. In 1958 I believe the hardtop model was introduced.

I'm looking at that car again, and I am blown away. That's probably the best Adenauer I have ever seen. If I had a powerball jackpot sitting in the bank...

Mr_Shiftright

They make some pretty good looking fakes though, unless you get real close or you know the cars very very well.

Here's one of them:

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/events/florida/vehicles/cardetail_list.asp?id=184- - - 187

Looks good, doesn't it?

RE: 4-doors: The 4 door hardtop you want is the 300d, not earlier cars, and stay away from the automatics.

fintail

Yeah it looked as good as that link. I suppose it could have been fake...but good ones are as rare as real ones aren't they? I know the proportions of the car, I think...I've been staring at it since I was about 10

The only thing that could top that for me would be a 500/540K or a 770 or something.

That pretty 300D Adenaurer is an auto, the borg warner unit, right? I can't imagine it being horrible...I would hate to select my own gears in something that heavy.

Mr_Shiftright

Well the later 300d has the better engine and moves out smartly with the stickshift. The BW is a slug, a real dog of a transmission. I suppose if you want to imitate a 1950 Buick and just take your time, then there's no problem. The 300d is more about stately motion, not speed or agility.

fintail

I wonder if the clunkomatic fintail fluid coupling transmission could be dropped in. It's not the most elegant unit, but it gets the job done ok.

I assume a 300d would have a column 4 speed...I suppose if the clutch was really light, it would be workable. But on that note, I am glad my fintail has an automatic.

Mr_Shiftright

Well you can see why the 300d would be vastly preferable to the 300c...the d has 180 HP and fuel injection pushing 4,300 lbs, but the earlier 300 sedans have 136 HP and twin carbs pushing 4,100 lbs.

If the Nitske book is right, then the 300d only came in automatic, with a 4.67 rear axle ratio (!!) to help move the Queen Mary along.

So forget the clutch thing...you don't want any old Benz with those diabolical Solex carbs. An FI 300d (as early as 1957!) is the only way to go.

fintail

I guess a 220SE fintail is even better....just under 3000 lbs and 140hp.

That old Bosch MFI is the way to go indeed. I've had my fintail for well over a decade...never had a FI problem yet (knock on wood)

Mr_Shiftright

It's a great system as long as some monkey doesn't start turning the adjustment screws this way and that without a manual to guide him (but then, monkeys can't read) ...easy unit to damage. And of course clean fuel. You should see those pumps inside---works of art. I'm amazed they work as well as they do, but they do. And you can still get them rebuilt, too.

fintail

Yeah...all I have had to do is set the idle speed now and then - it seems to be sensitive to temperature changes. And that's an easy procedure - I can do it anyway.

I remember when I bought the car, the FI system kind of scared me...so much plumbing compared to a normal car.

Classic old school German engineering...I am sure when it breaks, it breaks big...but it is a pleasure in 99% of cases.

fintail

Just to see a bunch of Andre-mobiles get smashed (and a Pinto drive off a very very tall bridge)

stickguy

a 503 ish (I guess) round one. I think it would be a ponton? The one before the fintails. Nice seafoamish green, looked in clean shape.

The real odd part was where I saw it. In a parking garage in downtoen Philly on Saturday night, just parked in a normal spot, not covered or anything, as if someone just drove into town and parked it there. Didn't seem that it was living there, since the spots weren't reserved.

andre1969

I didn't think the THM200 was used until nearly 1980... How early did it start showing up and start being used on eight cylinder models. It started with V6s IIRC.

I just did a little research, and it looks like I'm mixing terms up a bit. The THM200 originally came out in 1976, but without a lockup torque converter. It got a lockup converter for 1979, and that's when it was renamed THM200C.

My understanding is that it was originally intended to be a transmission for the Chevette, but once GM started making smaller V-8's and V-6 engines, they considered it strong enough to use in those applications. I think it mainly went behind engines like the 231 V-6, 200/229 V-6, and V-8's up to around 5 liters (301/305/307 CID range). I don't think the 4.1/250 straight six ever had it, though.

I think GM started using the 200 transmission in the 1977 downsized big cars and then the 1978 intermediates. The Nova stuck it out with the THM350 through its end in 1979 though.

However, GM also tended to mix and match transmissions, in a fashion similar to what they did with the various 350 CID engines. Often on the assembly line I think they'd just stick in whatever was available to keep the line moving. The 1977-79 period may be viewed as a dark time for the american auto industry, but it was actually a record selling time for GM, so they were probably in a rush to get the cars out the door as quickly as possible.

I had a 1980 Malibu 229 V-6 with the THM200 tranny, and never had any problems with it right up until I sold it at 100,000 miles. My Mom had bought it new, so I also knew its history. But then I had an '82 Cutlass Supreme with the THM350 tranny, that I bought used in 1993 with about 61,000 miles on it, and I had to have the tranny rebuilt within a couple months. But by that age/mileage, the blame is probably more on the previous owner than the way GM built it!

I think one key to the problems that the THM200 tranny had was the maintenance schedule that GM recommended. I have a 1979 Malibu brochure, and one of the selling features it lists is that the THM200 transmission can go 100,000 miles without servicing! 50,000 on the "severe" schedule. No wonder the things tended to fail!

andre1969

I was really impressed with that 4-door hardtop Benz, with the way it looks like the rear quarter windows aft of the doors even appeared to roll down. But then I saw them sitting in the trunk. So I guess that's how they did it...you just pulled them out and then stored them in those little pouches?

That would be an interesting way to make a poor man's hardtop nowadays: just make the rear window detachable. Of course, finding a place to store it might present itself as a challenge. It would have been an interesting touch though, on some of those wanna-be hardtops of the late 70's/early 80's like the LTD-II/Cougar, Mark V, '79-85 Eldo/Toro/Riv, and '80-83 Cordoba/Mirada.

I've seen old factory photos of a 1970 Duster 340 where they just took out the flip-out rear window and the post that it attaches to, giving it a hardtop look. It looked pretty sharp that way.

fintail

Yep, they used a little trick. That car was certainly a concession for the US market, as the 4 door HT is something otherwise unknown in German cars, or European cars as a whole. As MB styling tends to be conservative, I have to imagine that the idea upset some people, so maybe they just didn't want to bother. I know I have read that the fins of the fintail created a lot of dissent in the MB styling ranks.

It's funny, I didn't realize those 79-85 Eldos etc and the Mark V weren't really HTs until just a few years ago.

fintail

Yep that would be a ponton, odd sight indeed in that area. Like most everything else from that time, they were good rusters, so I wouldn't expect one to be out in the winter in Philly.

andre1969

It's funny, I didn't realize those 79-85 Eldos etc and the Mark V weren't really HTs until just a few years ago.

One devious (or deviant? :shades: ) little trick that they used in some of these fake hardtops was to put a little switch in the back seat of the car, either on the sidewall or the armrest, and at a quick glance it looked just like a power window switch. But it had a little label that read "reading light" or something like that.

I also remember a lot of Ford products, like the 1972-76 Torino/Montego coupes and Mark IV, actually started off their lives as hardtops, but towards the end of their run I think you had to pay extra for roll-down rear windows. Torinos were kind of funny too, where the back window actually retracted into the C-pillar instead of rolling down into the quarter panel, so if you had a model with the extra opera windows built into the C-pillar, such as on the Elite, then the retractable windows were made stationary.

I think on the Mark IV, the windows went back into the C-pillar as well. It had that oval opera window, so they only made the window retract about half way.

I guess with air conditioning becoming more and more popular, having roll-down rear windows became less and less necessary, but it's a feature that I miss.

fintail

That is funny, the higher models had less features. I too like rolling my windows down...I won't use AC until it is over 75 or so (that's warm for here)

Way back when my mom had the 73-76 style T-Bird, but I was so young when we had it I really don't recall if the back windows rolled down or not. I guess they probably didn't.

ghulet

Just saw this on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1950-MERCURY-CONVERTABLE-RESTORABLE_W0QQitemZ2300- - 86963538QQihZ013QQcategoryZ6882QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Anyone know if Pace Car replicas were produced this long ago? Strangely, I couldn't find Pace Car production figures anywhere on the internet. This certainly looks like it could be the real deal....it has some sort of modifications, I think, to the back seat area and side panels, and along with the rare-back-then power windows, it appears to have two switches on the left panel in the back seat...kinda strange. Lastly, and quite the opposite of what one usually finds on eBay, this seller doesn't say much of anything about the Pace Car insignias, or the possibility that this was the 'actual' pace car; usually you find sellers that have a nothing car but think it's the Holy Grail, this may be the antithesis.

andre1969

but here's a list of all the official pace cars that were used at the Indy 500 over the course of its life: http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-indianapolis-500-pace-cars

Here's another link with some pics and additional tidbits:
http://indymotorspeedway.com/500pace.htm

It does sporadically list production figures, but not for the 1950 Mercury.

Mr_Shiftright

The bids seem recklessly high--somebody might have to eat it big time on this car.

The seller has zero proof of any authenticity and the car is a mess.

Potential value of what....75K at Pebble Beach? Seems a long row to hoe with only $50,000 to spend on a resto.

Is it a real pace car (I believe they did make some replicas, yes) and how would you prove it?

Risky, very risky.

explorerx4

really enjoyed those little 'factoids' for various years of the pace cars. even back to the very beginning!
jay leno got ripped! if he gets asked to drive the pace car again, he'll just bring one of his own.

ghulet

that messed up Mercury is bid up to $35,100 now!

seminole_kev

On the way home from the airport this morning I spotted an Aston Martin Virage (at least that's what I think it was. Definetly an Aston Martin). Looked to be early 1990's and was in a nice red. Appeared to be in good shape.

fintail

Shifty mobile

Another one...he can have his pick

These are interesting

Surprised anyone would bother

End of an era

I love those gauge clusters

Not the kind of time warp I want to be stuck in

Fiat fintail

Wow

Odd survivor

Striking color

A nice earlier Adenauer

And the super elegant convertible

The black engine might have been a clue

Nice highline Olds

Odd Poncho

And my oddball spottings today were a couple of Peugeot 505s and a Pinzgauer.