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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)
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Maybe by Ford or by journalists? In Europe, brand means as much as it does here, and a mass market brand will never hold equal clout to the market. It might have been 90% as good at 60% the price, but I have to wonder how much it was really cross shopped in Europe. The Granada actually became the Scorpio, at least in Continental Europe. If anything, the Scorpio did show how modern European/German Ford was compared to US Ford.
That Fairmont ES reminds me of a pseudo-sport package on the US Granada, the ESS. I remember coming across one for sale when I was a teenager in the 90s. It was black with blackout chrome trim, I think dark red interior, moonroof (!) wheels, etc - loaded to the hilt. Pretty rare car. The one I saw was all there, but far from mint, could have had it for around $500. I suspect any performance upgrades were small or maybe zero.
And speaking of Fords, I saw this poor thing parked in Portland today:
Also tons of old Volvos and Vanagons of course, an old MB 309 van, and I walked by a Jaguar dealer (Monte Shelton, known for odd cars) who had a Cord roadster and a Big Healey in the used car section.
Portland - loading up on those VooDoo donuts is going to suddenly catch up to you when you wake one morning and turn 40
Back in the day, I wouldn't have minded that '66 big Ford convertible. Looks like a smash and grab window on the side and a parking ticket or tow warning on the windshield.
I know the British Magazines Autocar and Car compared the Scorpio to the E28 5 Series; back then Munich was cranking out the 518i and 520i- a large majority of which served as taxis or company cars for low level management. So yes, I'm sure that they were cross-shopped.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
a real oddity. F/S on the side of Rt. 206 in Hillsborough (Joisey!) in someone's driveway. a 1989 Toyota Supra Turbo. White. Looked very clean, and at least from a quick look driving by, pretty well stock (wheels, body).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I worked part time at a veterinary clinic back in high school, and I remember the vet who owned the place had a Plymouth Arrow. I don't remember much about it except that it was white. And I remember the front-end having a strong family resemblance to the 1981 Dodge D-50 that my grandparents briefly owned. I don't know how good/bad/otherwise the car was; she never badmouthed it, but she never praised it, either. She traded it on an '87 or '88 Subaru, GL hatchback coupe.
No doubt Ford NA touted those comparisons between the Ford and German brands. Still hard for me to imagine them really being cross shopped, but I'll take your word for it
Was out on the road a lot today, saw several odd cars - 64 Chevy II sedan, Econoline pickup, ~66 GTO, and on some side roads in SW WA, there appeared to be a Ford convention - saw a couple 69-70 Mustangs, and a few Cobras - a couple of them actually looked kind of real, not as blingy as the modern fakes. I wonder...
In October 1983 the Brit magazine Motor tested the 525e; these are the cars that were referred to as "The Rivals":
Audi 100 CD Auto
Rover 3500 SE Auto
Ford Granada 2.8 Ghia Auto
Mercedes 230E Auto
Volvo 760GLE Auto
A couple of years later Motor tested the 518i and named the following as "The Rivals":
Honda Accord 1.8 Executive
Renault 25 GTS
Toyota Camry 2.0 GLi Executive
Vauxhall Carlton 1.8 GL
Volkswagen Santana 1.8 LX
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Fun stuff, I love old magazines and road tests. I wonder if actual consumers agreed.
I have some old W126 material like that. In "Autocar" - for a 500 SEL they list cars like Renault 25, Saab 900, Volvo 760, and Rover 3500 as "opposition". Saab 900? Renault? Must have been a parallel universe.
Another test by Autocar lists things like an Opel Senator, Audi 100, and the same Rover as rivals for the 280 SE. I don't know if that worked - the MB was much more expensive and had more tech.
Motor lists cars like an Alfa 6 , Audi 200, and the same Opel as rivals for the 380 SE.
And of course, the British mags list period Jags as competition, too. The pretty interiors must have masked the propensity for fall-apart.
I would have thought that the BMW 525e would crush most of those "rivals" except maybe the Mercedes. But then, maybe in 1983 they didn't have the foresight to see how bad some of the cars on that list would turn out to be in a few years.
As for an early 80s Jaguar, I'd be surprised if it even made it through the road test.
In those old comparisons, the magazines at least had the sense to list various 7ers as rivals for the W126. That's apples to apples. I still don't get some of them though, a Renault or Saab 900 against an S-class? The Jags were chosen just because the magazines were British, I think.
Germany is science. Britain is art
Seriously though, while the Brits are often good at things like math (great cryptography and code breakers during the war), they just too often don't seem all that good at factory production of goods. can't blame it on unions, because Germany has lots of that as well.
The British know how to beautifully craft an interior, and how to make some beautiful engines. Some of the metallurgy and electrics are where they fall short.
I watched a youtube video not long ago about British Leyland problems, using a factory originally designed for the Mini, but into the 70s with larger more complex cars, which needed many more workers.
My Triumph is 18 years old and any issues have been extremely minor. When Triumph was revived John Bloor knew that the marque only had one shot to prove that it could build a reliable modern bike. As a result,the early bikes in particular are built like tanks. Mileages north of 100k without a rebuild are not at all uncommon.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Of course, a bike has a lot less wiring to go wrong, and wiring seems to be where a lot of British cars go wrong. That being said, Triumph bikes might be the most durable British vehicle of the past couple decades.
A similar comparison can be made with BMW - you couldn't give me a 7er with 150K on it for free, yet I have seen numerous BMW bikes at 150K and they seem to be fine.
British know how to beautifully craft an interior
I'll buy that, even though I saw a mid 80's Rolls at car show this weekend and the dash looked pretty darn GM plasticky (for lack of a better description). But then I think they were using some GM parts as well in those days like trannies.
Also, by the mid 80's, I thought a Rolls started looking a bit like a ripoff of a Granada...which I find funny, considering the Granada originally tried to ape Mercedes Benz!
For example, with this car, the front-end makes me think of the Fox-based '81-82 Granada, while the beltline kick-up towards the back, and the C-pillar make me think of the '75-80.
I love the Spur in Cannonball Run II - maybe just because it's a nice color:
I definitely see the Granada similarity, especially with the clunky US spec headlights.
That is a nice shade of blue. Sort of reminds me of my old 1980 Malibu coupe. Also, one thing I'll definitely say for the Rolls, the wheels and tires fill out the wheel openings pretty well. They don't have that gaping, tipsy look that was still pretty predominant in those days. I think that's something the '75-79 Seville, as well as the M-body Diplomat/LeBaron/Gran Fury did pretty well...all small-ish cars, by domestic standards, but with 15" rims. In contrast, most domestics in that range used 14" tires, and they just didn't seem to give the car as good of a stance.
I wonder though, if those GM rally wheels that were optional in those days were wider than stock wheels? My '82 Cutlass had the color-keyed Olds Rally wheels, and they were just a 14", but the wheel openings seemed to fill out a bit better than in my old '80 Malibu, or '86 Monte Carlo.
I have those old magazines and the way they selected competitors was explained every year or so - it wasn't as silly as it looks.
THey compared apples with apples - BMW /MB etc, but also found cars which would do the same job in real terms for less - the Renault 25 was bigger inside than any MB or BMw for example and for someone who wanted a cruiser on motorways - here with speed limits rather than the autobahn - then the Renault was a viable contender - for much less money.
I went to Paris, with my two best friends from college, back in 1994, and I vaguely remember riding in a Renault taxi called a Safrane, or something like that. I tend to think of things like the LeCar or Alliance/Encore when I think of Renault, but that Safrane (or whatever it was) seemed like a fairly decent-sized car.
For a couple years here in the US, we had the Eagle Medallion, which I believe was a rebadged Renault something-or-other. I sat in one once at a used car lot. It seemed kind of weird, for lack of a better word, but also seemed pretty roomy for what really wasn't a very big car.
The Medallion was a Renault 21 that was spiffed up for North America. It came to Chrysler as part of the buyout of AMC. Chrysler agreed to keep marketing the Renault Medallion for 3 years or so after the purchase.
That was an art lost during malaise times - matching wheels with wheel opening size. And width was a problem too - get behind a car from that era, a less powerful car especially - the tires are like those from a bicycle, or motorcycle at best.
Funny thing, my fintail has little 13" wheels - but the car was styled to make the size not alarming, and I think maybe to make the car look bigger.
No doubt there were some amusing comparisons then - would have been like a Crown Victoria being compared to a 560 SEL or something - both big and V8s, but different handling, design, tech, build quality, etc - just like comparing it to a senior Renault.
Smaller rims. But much thicker sidewalks.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Subaru Baja in Marquette. Baja Yellow.
Will be a rare bird since only 30,000 were sold. Since this one lives in Marquette, it'll probably rust out in another 5 years (looked fine, but I bet it's half gone already for a ~10 year old car).
Chevy actually had the gall to compare a Caprice to a W126 once. I think it was around 1989. They were going on about how it had more shoulder room and trunk space.
The only leg up a 1989 Chevy had on a W126 was the much lower cost per mile to operate it.
Well, that and the shoulder room and the trunk space!
I know that nobody in their right mind would have cross-shopped the two cars when they were new, but now, decades later, I could see it happen. For instance, a Caprice is the type of car that I'd definitely go for. But, a few years back, there was an early 80's W126 for sale at one of the Carlisle swap meets, and it seemed a reasonable price. I think it was about $4200. I forget the details, but it was brown (but still tasteful enough that I could live with it), and just a 6-cyl. I was sort of tempted, thinking it would be neat to try something a little different. So, I guess in a convoluted sort of way, I'm cross-shopping the two.
The headlights and bezels make me think of a 1986 Chevrolet Caprice:
Spotted a light blue metallic 1978 Chevrolet Malibu Classic coupe with a medium blue vinyl top and Ralleye wheels on the NW corner of Bingham and Martins Mill Road in NE Philly.
>
And Detroit iron from that era had superior A/C
Re: 1986 Caprice
Hard to believe that the market has changed so much that GM can't sell a handsome RWD sedan like that anymore.
@omarman---touche--German AC in the 1980s was marginal.
Spotted today - chrome bumper MGB with minilite style wheels, and a real oddity - Isuzu Ascender.
I think the downsized 1977 Impala or Caprice, with the 350 and F41 (or whatever they called the upgraded suspension back then, gave the closest Mercedes counterpart a real run for the money, performance wise.. Unfortunately, instead of improving on a winning design, GM went on to make its cars larger and worse soon after the first down-sizing..
Well those stiff suspensions were fine on smooth roads, but they were not sophisticated in any way. Chevrolet really didn't produce a Euro-grade suspension until Magna-Ride or whatever you call it now.
I owned a '78 Pontiac LeMans (the first year of the first generation of GM's downsized intermediates), 305 V8 with the "handling Suspension" and the larger tires that came with the package, and the ride/handling proposition was surprisingly good. The firmer suspension took the wallow out of the ride, and provided good cornering and a pleasant ride proposition. I'm sure the suspension wasn't up to Mercedes standards, though, mainly because it had a solid rear axle instead of IRS. However, given the car's price, it was an excellent value in terms of space, functionality, utility, maintenance costs and styling.
Unfortunately, in 1985, at 114,--- miles, that car got totaled by another driver. It was still going strong. Fortunately, there the injuries were minor.
I also had a 1965 Mustang with the upgraded suspension, and the ride was punishing. In those days, the standard suspension was probably that Mustang's weakest feature, and the optional suspension gave a harsh ride. There were only two choices, and neither was good.
Brakes were another area where European cars were usually superior to the domestic ones. Detroit could have quite easily closed the gap with the Europeans on brakes and suspensions, while maintaining the advantages of its cars, if the short-sighted bean counters hadn't prevailed.
They could have, might have, should have, but they didn't, so it cost them, big-time. The upshot was that the Europeans stole Detroit's lunch on the premium end, and an indifference to quality and fuel economy gave the Japanese an opening on the low end. From there, it didn't take too many years for Detroit to also lose it's edge in the mid-price range. Management and the unions were complacent, and in a state of denial. It wasn't inevitable, but it happened.
By contrast, in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s and 1950s Americans made the best cars in the world, at affordable prices. American cars were the envy of the world, and exported to all continents. That's difficult to imagine now. Also, during those decades, American auto workers were the best paid in the world. Europe and Japan would have been much more competitive if they hadn't been embroiled in two world wars. That's another case of could have, might have, should have, but didn't.
That's a bit of an overstatement. In the '70s GM chassis engineers discovered that relatively soft springs combined with hefty anti-roll bars and proper shocks could deliver good handling without punishing the passengers with a harsh ride, unlike the traditional way of improving handling, which was adding stiffer springs all by themselves - the old "oversprung and underdamped" complaint. As was said, with a live axle you had limits as to level of sophistication possible, but don't dismiss a late-70s Caprice with the F41 option - it is surprisingly capable.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
The 1970-1981 Z/28s also handled pretty well.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That part is interesting. If one looks at most somewhat developed parts of the world say 75 years ago, a Buick or Packard or Cadillac had every bit the prestige and brand equity of a MB or BMW today. Even mass market American cars were much sturdier and more capable than similarly priced cars from anywhere, and were upmarket products when exported. The German brands existed, but were minor players in many or most markets. This would go on through maybe the mid 50s, but by the end of that decade, one could see the changes. Maybe the war taught some a lesson - it is better to dominate via economics and industry than military.
I would date the crossover date as about a decade later. I like the comparison Jay Leno made in his video about his '67 Imperial when he compared it to a Benz of the same vintage - as he said, the Benz would have had a 6 cylinder vs. the Imp's 440, the A/C would have been added on under the dash where the Imp had dual integrated air conditioners, etc. But the US industry really went bad beginning in the early '70s and was surpassed during that decade.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
On smooth roads no problem---but 70s suspensions on domestics are still relatively primitive---on rough roads, or when pushed into turns on bias tires, they go all to hell. You'll pogo stick all the way home. The sheer size, casual steering, and easily overpowered brakes and shocks, and the unsprung weight, chassis overhang, etc.---all works against you the harder you drive it. But yeah, compared to a 60s car, much improved.
You can make a stiffened up domestic car from the 70s and 80s look good against a European sports sedan, but you'd better pick your road and your driver.
I think part of that was due to ever-stricter emissions and fuel economy requirements, that GM and the others were having trouble keeping up with. In 1979, for example, they stricter standards had the 305-2bbl cut from 145 hp to 130. However, a 4-bbl version with 160 hp was introduced, but that first year, it was only offered in the midsized cars. Chrysler also saw a whack, as its 318-2bbl dropped from around 145 hp to 135. The Ford 302 didn't take as bad of a hit. In 1978, it had 134 hp in an LTD II or the mastodon LTD coupe/sedan (wagons started with a 351). In the '79 Panthers, however, it only had 129 hp. Oddly, the '79 LTD II had 134, the Granada had 137, and the Fairmont had 140. Kinda odd, that hp would go up as the cars got smaller...
In 1980, the Chevy 305-2bbl was dropped completely, leaving just a 4-bbl with 155 hp. They did, however, had the 267-2bbl V-8, which first debuted in 1979. Chrysler's 318 got choked down to 120 hp. Ford's 302 was at 130 hp in the LTD, 131 in the Thunderbird, and 134 in the Granada. It was dropped from the Fairmont that year, as well as the Mustang. Ford also started using a 4-speed overdrive automatic, to help out with fuel economy.
1981 was the year that GM started putting computer controls in their cars, with the ECU down in the passenger side footwell kick panel. They were troublesome at first, but by 1983 I don't think they were too bad.
Apparently, by 1983, GM was starting to get a handle on things, because they started using 305's and 307's again as the standard V-8's, and dumping those under-sized 260's and 267's. The Pontiac 265 was dumped a year earlier, for 1982. For some reason though, Buick saw fit to hold the 252-4bbl V-6 engine around through 1984.
A friend of mine had a 1980 Malibu with the 267. I thought it was a dog but not as bad as that abysmal 255 in my Dad's 1981 Thunderbird.
Took the Magnette to a local show out in Essex today - just an informal gathering for old cars on the village green around a cricket pitch with a pub in one of those villages which usually has a murder in the vicarage or something similar.
Quite a selection of cars present - from an Austin Seven and a twenties Rolls to a Lamborghini Avantandor and a Noble. Mostly sports cars like MGBs and Triumphs, Morris Minors and Minis, a fair number of Mustangs - it was a run for the local mustang club so there were more of those than usual - and some real oddities - two BSA cars from the thirties, a Jowett Javelin, Vanden Plas 4litre Limo and a pre-war Opel too....
Only about forty minutes drive for us through country lanes and it was just a case of park anywhere on the field but not the cricket pitch...
Quite nice really, and as with most shows a friendly crowd and no particular fuss over whether a car was concours or not...
I like events where it is not a judged show, and cars that are old and in old condition are welcome. The annual local MB club gathering is like that. I was a little leery attending the first time, as the fintail is a "10 footer" at best, but it received positive attention no less.
I took it out for a drive this morning, and spotted a couple oddities at the local RR/Bentley/Lambo etc dealer. First, this late run Corniche coupe - I think these are common in England, but much rarer here, especially a late 70s large bumper model like this:
And the most out of place thing seen at a RR/Bentley dealer, this piece of the 70s. 4-speed, odometer read ~50K I think.
Spotted today: a light gray East German Trabant on a car dealer's lot on Sumneytown Pike outside Kulpsville, PA and a beautiful teal green 1966 Chevrolet Impala SS convertible with black top on Route 73 in Montgomery County, PA.
You can still buy one of those Corniche coupes in really fine shape for CHEAP in the USA, especially if they are RHD, and if they need any work at all, for under $10 easily. I bought one in....let me see....2006....for $7500--running and quite presentable. Sold it back to the UK (it was a right hand drive car) and it promptly barfed its transmission. Luckily, it was sold to a RR mechanic and he hardly blinked an eye---just an "oh well" and left it at that. Good man! I thought about keeping it for a while, but when I went to the dealer and bought one pint of brake fluid and a master cylinder reservoir gasket for $66, I thought better of it. I inquired of a friend who works on them to give me a "best and worst case scenario on a brake overhaul" and when he started with "Well, from $6000 to...." I just held up my hand.
There was a 1970 Trans Am - same colors - in the August 14 issue of Automobile in the auction section. It sold for almost $46,500!
I think the market has definitely moved upward for 70s Trans Ams. Lots of restorations out there, and prices for later 70s ones have moved well into the 20s for good cars. Smokey nostalgia, or just the attraction of that bird on the hood?
I think the Corniche I saw was one of the good ones. I suspect it was a car in for service, not for sale. Condition appeared to be as-new, impressive for a high maintenance car that I'd guess was from around 1977. I should have checked the odometer. I'd never want one unless the hydraulic system was either freshly overhauled or given a clean bill of health from an expert. I like the Corniche convertibles, can't get much classier than that for a car made in the past 40 years.