I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

berri

Those were kind of neat 4 dr ht's, especially the ones where the rear vent window also recessed into the door. 55/s and 56's - what color combinations and even tri-tones! My preferences for the 55 Dodge and Desoto are kind of swayed by the rear end on them. Now I don't really understand why because I'm also a fan of the 57 fins - but you know I also like the 59 GM cars and especially their flat tops with the wrap around rear window. Oh heck, color me psychedelic

andre1969

Yeah, those '56 4-door hardtops were pretty cool. Chrysler didn't have the money to make a dedicated 4-door hardtop roofline like GM did, so they merely took the existing 4-door sedan, removed the B-pillar, beefed it up as best they could to compensate, and took away the frames around the door windows.

However, since the 4-door sedan had a flip-out vent window, they compensated for the hardtop by making it pivot downward as the main window rolled down. I thought it was a neat trick, although I'd guess it was prone to leaks and rattles.

Also, by using the 4-door sedan as the basis, the cars were roomier inside. Cars that are designed from the ground up as a 4-door hardtop usually have less headroom, and less legroom in the back seat, to accommodate the swoopier styling.

imidazol97

I searched for 4-door hardtops in the 56 Chrysler. Can't find any good pictures of ones. Lots of convertibles. Lots of 2-door hardtops. The taillights on the 56 Chrysler were great: they exuded power in their design.




Found this that I'd never seen before of a concept car...the Plainsman by Ghia.
I don't want to hear anyone poke fun at the GM Aztek again--ever. Laughting out loud.

ab348

imidazol97 said:

I searched for 4-door hardtops in the 56 Chrysler. Can't find any good pictures of ones.

I found a few. The 2 pics below of the tatty-looking one show the rear quarter-window in the upright position from both inside and out, and the last pic shows a nicer car with it fully retracted.

andre1969

Here's a 1956 DeSoto Firedome Seville hardtop sedan...


Most 4-door hardtops had the C-pillar moved forward, to allow for a smaller roll-down window without the need for a spacer window, such as on this '56 Chevy...

imidazol97

Interesting point about the roofline and the spacer window.

I noticed the Imperial's body and the Chrysler body in the above pictures. The Imperial just has the same greenhouse with the body extended from the rear door rearward.

magnette

Tuesday evening at the local supermarket we were filling the boot with food (one Fiesta boot full feeds two hungry adults for seven days..) when a Maserati 430 parked just opposite us. This was the top the range saloon from the BiTurbo range from 1986-91 and it looked perfect. Chap who was driving it was on his way home from work, had had two of them before and said it was always reliable although not his only car. It looked immaculate and sounded great - a true classic in an understated way although you need to know someone who can understand them and the electrics and trim are probably hard to source now.

fintail

I can't recall the last time I saw a roadworthy 80s Maserati here. Most I see anymore are 00s models, some of them working their way down the depreciation change enough to acquire modifications of questionable taste.

berri

You know, those 55-57 GM 4dr ht's always seemed to have kind of classy lines and greenhouses to me.

Growing up in the Chicago suburbs there was a multi line foreign luxury dealer in Hinsdale I believe. I think it was called Continental Motors back in the old days. Among its product lines, I think it carried Ferrari, but I don't think it sold Maserati or Alfa's while growing up there. I don't recall seeing any of those two makes and they were pretty distinctive.

Mr_Shiftright

IMO, one would be hard put to find a prettier 4D HT than this:

berri

That is a nice looker as was the entire 2nd gen Corvair to me at least. Very clean looking styling on all of them.

stickguy

I always liked the looks of the facelifted Corvairs. A 65-66 Stinger or some such could be fun.

Mr_Shiftright

Here's a nice truck I saw today. '57 Chevy 3100, with 261 six cylinder, new old stock (!!) Chevy heavy truck engine, Isky camshaft, twin carbs using a '53 Corvette manifold, 3-speed manual trans with aftermarket electric overdrive, electric power steering, all kinds of period-correct options installed. Runs great, lots of "grunt". Neat as a pin, too. Not a mark on this truck top or bottom.

andre1969

imidazol97 said:

Interesting point about the roofline and the spacer window.

I noticed the Imperial's body and the Chrysler body in the above pictures. The Imperial just has the same greenhouse with the body extended from the rear door rearward.

Yep, Chrysler pretty much did the same thing that GM did throughout most of the 60's, with the Bonneville/Executive versus the Catalina, whereas an Olds Ninety-Eight or Buick Electra actually gave you a larger interior with the wheelbase stretch. I'm not sure about the Wildcat though...IIRC it was on the longer Electra wheelbase, but still used the LeSabre passenger cabin?

The wheelbase on the '55-56 Chrysler and DeSoto was 126". The Imperial stretched that out to 130" for 1955, and 133" for 1956. I think the initial 4" stretch was up front, ahead of the cowl, which gave a longer hood and fenders, and then the 3 extra inches was in the back, as evidenced by the Imperial vs DeSoto above. It's hard to tell though, because to me, the DeSoto and Imperial look like they have about the same-length fenders. However, looking at pics of the '55 Imperial, there's not a big gap between the rear door and wheel opening like on the '56.

I guess it's possible they added the 4" up front for 1955, but then for '56 gave it a regular-length front and added 7 inches in back? That doesn't look like a 7" difference to me in those two pics, but sometimes appearances can be deceiving.

uplanderguy

If I weren't into Studebakers, I'd be owning a second-gen Corvair next. Although, finding a competent mechanic around where I live would probably be even more of a challenge than one that would work on a Studebaker! The old saw is that most Chevy dealers had one dedicated Corvair guy, but of course in a very big dealer it would've been more than that I'm sure.

I don't recall contrasting paint color being an option on those Corvairs, but that black painted top looks nice regardless.

ab348

An acquaintance has one of those Corvair 4-door hardtops but it is painted the same light metallic blue as the lower body of the one shown, with no two-tone. An older restoration that he was telling me he will likely have to sell soon since he is getting older, lost his wife a while ago, and can no longer easily take care of it himself. Nice car.

bhill2

Mr_Shiftright said:

IMO, one would be hard put to find a prettier 4D HT than this:

I am in violent agreement with you, Shifty. I have thought those were extremely attractive from the time they were introduced. In addition, I had owned a '61 that I loved. In the '80s I even considered picking one up if I found a good one. The problem was all of the 4 doors had Powerglide. My '61 had a fou-speed stick. A Corvair with a two-speed auto gave me pause.

imidazol97

How many of the 4-door hardtops were built? Can't be many. I don't recall having seen one at car shows. Two doors. Yes. Convertibles. Yes. Post 4-doors. Yes.
Maybe I just didn't realize they were hardtops.

ab348

From the introduction of the revised 1965 body style until the end of production, all 4-door Corvairs were hardtops. No pillared sedans after '64.

berri

I don't recall contrasting paint color being an option on those Corvairs, but that black painted top looks nice regardless

Now that you mention it, I only remember some two tone 1st gen Corvairs. I kind of recall a few early version Corvairs with white tops. But even most of the 1st gen I saw were a single color. In fact, I don't really recall seeing any 1st gen Valiant two tones at all, but maybe a very few Falcons. Then I got to thinking, it seems that by the mid 60's two tones in general were fading and giving way to vinyl tops or single color cars.

How about 1st gen Larks?

Mr_Shiftright

imidazol97 said:

How many of the 4-door hardtops were built? Can't be many. I don't recall having seen one at car shows. Two doors. Yes. Convertibles. Yes. Post 4-doors. Yes.
Maybe I just didn't realize they were hardtops.

A little over 100,000 Corvair sedans, model 500s and Monzas. Just a guessitmate, but I think pretty close to that.

andre1969

c

imidazol97 said:

How many of the 4-door hardtops were built? Can't be many. I don't recall having seen one at car shows. Two doors. Yes. Convertibles. Yes. Post 4-doors. Yes.
Maybe I just didn't realize they were hardtops.

According to my old car book, production was as follows:
1965: 17560 500s, 37157 Monzas
1966: 8779 500s, 12497 Monzas
1967: 2959 500s, 3157 Monzas.

The 4-door hardtop was dropped after 1967. I'm pretty sure I've seen them, but it's been ages. I seem to recall a local Corvair club putting on a show at a shopping mall, and there was a good turnout, so there might have been one or two.

And I agree with the others, that the 4-door hardtop was beautiful. I think it's all the more amazing that they could pull off something so gorgeous on such a small car. Hardtop coupes aren't hard to do, because a coupe sacrifices practicality for style anyway. But a sedan, hardtop or not, still has to have some degree of functionality. It's also harder, in my opinion, to style small cars and make them still look good. I think it was Bill Mitchell who once said that styling a small car is like trying to tailor a dwarf. Now small, sporty cars, that's a different story...but a more practical, 4-door car, I just think it's hard to make the smaller ones look good.

Yet, the 4-door hardtop Corvair pulls it off beautifully. I've never sat in one, though. I wonder how comfortable one would be, compared to your typical car on a ~108" wheelbase?

thecardoc3

1954 Kaiser Darrin

sda

bhill2 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

IMO, one would be hard put to find a prettier 4D HT than this:

I am in violent agreement with you, Shifty. I have thought those were extremely attractive from the time they were introduced. In addition, I had owned a '61 that I loved. In the '80s I even considered picking one up if I found a good one. The problem was all of the 4 doors had Powerglide. My '61 had a fou-speed stick. A Corvair with a two-speed auto gave me pause.

Very nice looking, handsome. Was the turbo engine available in the 4 door?

Mr_Shiftright

Doesn't look like you could order a 4-door Corsa with turbo, no.

The turbo was a somewhat primitive design by modern standards, and it didn't do much until fairly high RPM; still, it could beat a 6 cylinder Mustang pretty easily. Probably, 0-60 in the mid 9 second range.

berri

Kaiser was innovative on designs, but I think lacked the capital to follow up on the innards.

uplanderguy

Never a four-door Corsa.

I am probably 90% certain that that yellow Kaiser was restored by the same shop that did my white Lark Daytona in my signature pic as a 'driver' restoration. The Kaiser was taken much farther, of course. The shop is Westmoreland Restorations in Blairsville in western PA.

bhill2

Mr_Shiftright said:

Doesn't look like you could order a 4-door Corsa with turbo, no.

The turbo was a somewhat primitive design by modern standards, and it didn't do much until fairly high RPM; still, it could beat a 6 cylinder Mustang pretty easily. Probably, 0-60 in the mid 9 second range.

I did some checking and you could get the 140 hp four carb engine, but I don't remember ever seeing one advertised in a 4-door.

uplanderguy

I saw a '66 Monza four-door, gold color, with the four-carb engine for sale a couple years back. Nice car and reasonably priced (as most all Corvairs are). I can't remember if it was a 4-speed or Powerglide, but I definitely remember thinking how unusual the four-carb engine on a four-door seemed.

uplanderguy

Now that you mention it, I only remember some two tone 1st gen Corvairs. I kind of recall a few early version Corvairs with white tops. But even most of the 1st gen I saw were a single color. In fact, I don't really recall seeing any 1st gen Valiant two tones at all, but maybe a very few Falcons. Then I got to thinking, it seems that by the mid 60's two tones in general were fading and giving way to vinyl tops or single color cars.

How about 1st gen Larks?

No factory two-tone Larks or later 'Lark-types' were made, although a fair amount of current owners have them painted that way.

andre1969

Mr_Shiftright said:

Doesn't look like you could order a 4-door Corsa with turbo, no.

The turbo was a somewhat primitive design by modern standards, and it didn't do much until fairly high RPM; still, it could beat a 6 cylinder Mustang pretty easily. Probably, 0-60 in the mid 9 second range.

According to my old car book, at least, the turbo was only offered in the Corsa, which itself was only offered as a hardtop coupe or convertible. Apparently, Motortrend tested a Corsa sport coupe with the turbo and a 4-speed, and got 0-60 in 10.9 seconds. That was with a full tank of gas and two people on board. That's still pretty good for the era, and would easily blow off any 6-cyl domestic compact of the time, except for maybe the Pontiac OHC-6 in a Firebird? It was probably quicker than many base V-8 compacts.

Here's a writeup about the 2nd-gen Corvair: http://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2004/08/1965-1966-Chevrolet-Corvair-Corsa-Turbo/1280856.html

Mr_Shiftright

Corvair could have been the "American Porsche". What a wasted opportunity.

fintail

Saw a typical rod style 55 Chevy today, and not much else, kind of surprising as the weather was pleasant.

bhill2

uplanderguy said:

Now that you mention it, I only remember some two tone 1st gen Corvairs. I kind of recall a few early version Corvairs with white tops. But even most of the 1st gen I saw were a single color. In fact, I don't really recall seeing any 1st gen Valiant two tones at all, but maybe a very few Falcons. Then I got to thinking, it seems that by the mid 60's two tones in general were fading and giving way to vinyl tops or single color cars.

How about 1st gen Larks?

No factory two-tone Larks or later 'Lark-types' were made, although a fair amount of current owners have them painted that way.

Just to add a note with info uncovered in my Corvair research (see above if you're really bored), you could get two tones in the sedan at least in '66.

stickguy

an early 70s big Benz convertible (the big one). 280SE? Driveing around with the top down.

then parked a plastic bumper C3 Vette, a late 70s. In period beige.

then, driving, an early 911, pre-bumper with just the rear overriders. Bright red, looked nicely restored.

ab348

Met an interesting fellow yesterday, a bit of a human dynamo. I don't know where guys like this fellow get all their energy. He works full-time as the head of equipment maintenance at a large commercial brewery here. But that is the least of his pursuits. He is in the middle of a down-to the studs full reno of a former rental property he owns which he and his wife are planning to move into and sell their existing larger house. The rental property has two large outbuildings on it that he built largely on his own over the years. The first he uses as a repair shop for vehicles, I believe 32x40, complete with a lift, tire dynamic balancer, large compressor, and every tool under the sun. The other building is 45x75 and he used that for car/motorcycle winter storage along with his own collection of memorabilia. The buildings are interesting because he uses in-floor heat in both along with lots of insulation and heat recovery ventilators to keep them comfortable without spending a whole lot on energy.

His own cars are odd. He seems to be an active importer of mostly American cars from the US southwest, keeps them for a little while, and then sells them locally for a good profit once they no longer interest him. He is big on original-owner, original-paint cars. None of them really do much for me other than that they are unusual these days. He has a '77 Pontiac Can-Am that has always been in a collectors hands, with very low mileage and looks brand-new though it is unrestored. He has a 1-owner 1980 Pinto wagon with 40K miles on it that looks near-new and is really unusual these days, but hardly desirable. He has an '84 Monte Carlo that is a time capsule but again not all that sought-after. His wife has a '68 Mustang, original paint, fairly loaded, but with the 200 6-cylinder. She also has an early 2000s Camaro convertible that never gets driven. He has hundreds of signs and various car and service station stuff. I guess it is all about just having these neat things than actually using them. But a very personable, friendly fellow, fun to visit with, and I marvel at guys like him who never seem to tire of working on things.

berri

My BIL restored Mustangs for people to help earn his way through college. He said the 67 (so I assume also the 68) were much better cars than the original ones regardless of which gen you prefer the looks of.

ab348

I have had occasional desires to get a Mustang over the years and a '68 is the one that I am always drawn to.

sda

I like the '67-68 Mustang, but I wouldn't mind having a '67-70 Cougar XR-7 either. I really liked the sequential tail lights, hidden head lamps and upscale interior. Convertible would rock, but with a/c. A Cougar with the rare sliding sunroof would be nice, too.

Mr_Shiftright

sda said:

I like the '67-68 Mustang, but I wouldn't mind having a '67-70 Cougar XR-7 either. I really liked the sequential tail lights, hidden head lamps and upscale interior. Convertible would rock, but with a/c. A Cougar with the rare sliding sunroof would be nice, too.

.

Cougars also generally are a little bit cheaper to buy than Mustangs, and they often come better equipped.

uplanderguy

Something I have noticed about '68 Mustangs since I was a kid, was that there were two styles of rear-side marker lights. One was recessed; the other was raised and outlined in bright metal. Never knew if they were a running change or different because of a different assembly plant.

iluvmysephia1

Something I have noticed about '68 Mustangs since I was a kid, was that there were two styles of rear-side marker lights. One was recessed; the other was raised and outlined in bright metal. Never knew if they were a running change or different because of a different assembly plant.

Need a visual on this.

texases

All the '68 Mustangs I found on the web have the raised light, some with a chrome frame, some with a body-colored frame.

Mr_Shiftright

All 68s built prior to Feb 15, 1968 have the recessed market lights, and after Feb. 15, the bolt-on reflector with chrome trim. Source: Page 114, Mustang Recognition Guide.

Feel free to impress your wives and girlfriends with this fascinating bit of information.

iluvmysephia1

All the '68 Mustang taillights I've ever seen are of the recessed variety - is this extreme Mustang nerdology going on here?

texases

Shifty-did you mean 1968?

ab348

texases said:

Shifty-did you mean 1968?

Must have been a typo. If they were building '68s in February of '69, he has a real scoop.

uplanderguy

Well, they did build (or at least sell) '69 Camaros until Feb. '70!

uplanderguy

Here's the one style (and I really like this car and color, and I'm not really a Mustang guy):
http://www.mustangdreams.com/tt1.jpg
Here's the other style:
http://www.oldcarsguide.com/ford/mustang/images/1968-mustang-side-marker-light.jpg

I used to see both in my hometown.

Anyone I ever asked in person about that over the years, even owners, would go, "Huh?". LOL

Mr_Shiftright

texases said:

Shifty-did you mean 1968?

Yes, typo! I corrected it, thanks. And yes, prior to Feb. 15/68 you get the recessed marker lights, and after Feb. 15th you get the bolt ons with the bezel.