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Comments
When a dealer offers to sell a car for $X, then I expect they'll go through with the deal, not stop and go, "Well, since you said you'd go $X, can you go $X+100?" If we expect this level of straightforwardness from the dealer, I don't know a customer shouldn't do the same. IOW, if you say you'll buy the car for $X, you should be willing to buy it for $X - period.
- Mark
I have no problem with giving them the credit card over the phone or in person. From my perspective, I am basically saying "here is my offer, if you accept then withdraw a deposit using my card". Dealers normally wants to see how serious you are to making the purchase and I don't blame them and I don't get offended they ask for a deposit up front if they agree to my offer.
About the negotiating tactic, I would like to add that if the dealer has 1 Pilot left and he just agreed with me for $32,000 and the next guy that walks in the showroom wants it and offer him $32,500 then I would not be happy if the dealer comes back "grinding" for more from me as I would expect him to live up to the agreement. I would live up to my words just as I would expect them to live up to theirs. I know people are saying how sleezy salespeople are and I agree for most part. But they look out for their best interests just as you would look out for yours. In the end if you both come to something both parties agree upon then that should be it. But if I happen to see another dealer offered same thing for less after we agreed, then I may be tempted to go back and say "hey, check this out and can you at least match it" and if he can't then I will just stick with it unless the difference in price is significant but for a couple of hundred bucks......back and forth......back and forth......
Sure, we all want to pay the lowest prices. Who wouldn't? But some methods of negotiating are "unethical". Well, at least to me they are. But hey if it makes someone happy and he/she are comfortable with saving a few hundred bucks that way then be it. But to say that others are "novice" or "inexperienced" just because they didn't use these tactics is another. Just my 2 cents.
Agree!
tidester, host
A credit card is a means to pay for a purchase, not an indicator of how "SERIOUS" a buyer may be. Social security numbers are for tracking my retirement contributions, not to determine whether I REALLY want that Honda. If a dealer wants to know how "SERIOUS" I am, he should offer me a fair price and see if I accept it.
Why anyone would trade some of their most important personal information in order to convince a salesman that he's worthy of receiving a price quote is beyond me. It's foolish at best to give away such easily abused information. Has anybody ever heard of identity theft? Not that a dealer would ever knowingly contribute to such a crime, but what do you think happens to your information if you don't arrive at a deal? Chances are the salesman puts your info into his computer (for later contact) and throws his notes in the garbage can (yeah, those notes that now have your name, SS#, credit card and telephone #). After all, he has no responsiblity to protect your information because you're not even a customer. Talk about a field day for identity thieves!
Conspiracy theory stuff aside, there's no valid reason to ask for this information until it's time to pay. If a dealer insists on some proof of how serious I am, I'd be happy to fax him a copy of my preapproved loan with all sensitive information blacked out. Tidester is right: it's all about control.
I made the mistake of giving a dealer my credit card ONE time. The salesman passed my card on to the manager and the guy wouldn't let me leave the lot! I had to threaten him to get my card back! In short, NEVER EVER GIVE YOUR PERSONAL FINANCIAL INFORMATION UNTIL IT'S TIME TO PAY!
The way I look at it is if I am worry that the car dealer or the sales guy would take my credit card and do whatever with it then I may as well never again use my credit card at Walmart or anywhere else since these cashiers can easily do something with it once I'm out the door.
As far as SSN, I would never give that out unless I apply for loans or credit cards or call into my bank where they need that in order to verify.
PS. If you guys want my credit card number, email me and I will be happy to give it to you. My Visa (with a credit line of $10,000) currently carries a balance of $9,990. But that's still 10 bucks of gas you can fill your Pilot with. Remember not to tell the attendant "fill 'er up" otherwise I will be penalized for going over limit.
:-)
I don't let any of my personal property out of my hand at the dealer, except my trade-in. And I drive them forever, so my trades are usually worthless beaters anyway :-)
Steve, Host
the "novice" and "inexperienced" buyer I was referring to was ME. In no way did I intend to insult fellow beginners -- much less, experienced pros.
Prior to purchasing this Pilot, I'd only bought one other car. In that case, I asked the dealer what was "fair." He gave me a number (MSRP + markup); I paid. I hadn't done any homework and had no idea what was fair. I trusted him to tell me the truth. See what I mean about "novice" and "inexperienced?" Later, I found out I'd overpaid by a ton.
This time I did my homework. Maybe the dealers would be fair with me and maybe they wouldn't -- but atleast I'd know for myself.
I didn't "grind" anyone -- I just kept telling them what their competitors were offering and asking, "is this your best offer? do you want to match or beat their offer?" There was nothing remotely unpleasant or ugly about it.
I never made anyone ANY promises during this process -- only kept saying that I'd be buying a Pilot from someone within 24 hours (and I did). No one ever asked for a credit card because we were just talking about possibilities. They knew I was shopping around because I was completely up-front with them.
I told each dealer how much I hate negotiating and that this was my way of avoiding it, yet finding a fair price. They all understood the process and no one EVER complained or opted out. Several of them actually said this was a good way to settle on a price: fair & competitive.
For me, the benefit was knowing that when dealers dropped out of the bidding process, they did so because there was no longer a satisfying profit margin for them. That meant I was getting close to the lowest point between sale and no-sale. And all I wanted to do was find that point. It seemed to me that that would be the fair price to pay: the dealer would be happy with the deal, and I would be happy with the price.
One last word to those of you who think I've somehow been disrespectful of dealers....
Not only are car salespeople "human," the ones here in Atlanta are incredibly friendly, gracious and eager to please. They want this, ultimately, to be a very satisfying process. They want the repeat business! As best I can tell, nothing about this was stressful or unpleasant for them --or for me. In my book, THAT'S the ideal car buying experience.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And as others have said, this is DEFINITELY negotiating. Fairly hard-ball negotiating, I might add. Glad you got the deal you wanted, but I would never recommend these ping-pong tactics to someone who says they want to avoid negotiation.
If you really want to avoid negotiation, you can go through Costco, credit unions, Edmunds, etc. or simply fax/email purchase requests to a number of dealers. You may not get the last $100, but you'll probably come close. Consumer Reports did a survey once of four or five different methods of purchasing a common car (an Accord) and all were fairly close with face-to-face negotiation doing the best, but not a whole lot better.
Final point: Don't make the mistake of saying that it makes no sense to negotiate the final few hundred dollars, since it represents such a small percentage of the overall cost. The only thing that matters is the amount you save and how long it takes to get it in the negotiation. Even if you're buying a $50K vehicle, if spending an extra hour results in a $200 reduction in the price you pay, that's $200/hour, regardless of the fact that it is only 0.4% of the final price.
- Mark
Once I had their numbers, I went to the dealer with the 2nd lowest price to test drive. After he'd invested 45 minutes in selling me, I told him I'd be glad to buy it IF he'd beat his competitor's driveout price (the lowest price I'd found via email). He agreed to beat it by $100, since he wanted to close the deal and I had cash in hand.
I then told him that, as a courtesy, I felt it was only fair to give Dealer #1 one last chance to give me his best "take it or leave it" driveout price. Dealer #2 would want that courtesy, right?
Then you recently posted saying:
I didn't "grind" anyone -- I just kept telling them what their competitors were offering and asking, "is this your best offer? do you want to match or beat their offer?" There was nothing remotely unpleasant or ugly about it.
you did SAID that you "would be glad to buy IF he would beat the first guy...."
And now you tell us:
I never made anyone ANY promises during this process -- only kept saying that I'd be buying a Pilot from someone within 24 hours (and I did).
I told each dealer how much I hate negotiating and that this was my way of avoiding it, yet finding a fair price.
Well, if you didn't think the price was fair, why did you tell him you would buy it IF he was to beat the first guy's price.
.........Let me have another Sam Adams and maybe that will knock some sense into my head.
I am in the process of obtaining internet quotes for the transportation fees. Could anyone out there give a recommendation for the transport company they used? Also, any problems or issues with the delivery?
If I can get a OR-Dealer to come within $500 of a MI price+ transportation fees, I would probably go with the OR deal. I don't know for sure, but it does not seem like the OR dealers are going much below MSRP. Also not sure if I would have to pay taxes in MI. OR has no sales tax.
I checked Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Fran and Detroit on Carsdirect and Detroit was the lowest. I am guessing that this may give a fairly accurate indication of market conditions in the respective regions.
TIA for any advice.
Thanks.
I don't have any personal experience with any of the local dealers except for a couple of service trips to a Nissan dealer. Cost of living is cheap here, but that may not translate into a great deal on a Honda.
The cheap internet store is up in Kellogg but I think they just do Chrysler and some GM models.
Steve, Host
Markup on these is around $3K, so $2200 under is a darn good deal. I'd be a little skeptical that CarsDirect can find such a deal, but perhaps they can. I'd certainly push a few dealers closer to you to see if they could come close enough to your price that you could work the deal without the hassle.
Final thought: make sure the Michigan car is not Canadian production and is the same model year. Be cautious, but if the stars align, perhaps its a good deal.
- Mark
i ended up paying 28861 plus ttl for a 2004 pilot exl at gillman honda in houston.
now, i just wish the pilot actually came with a sunroof. ha. can't have it all.
We (hubby and myself) just traded in our 1998 BMWis that we paid 33.000 for 2 years ago on a 2003 Pilot. The purchase price was 44.000 and we got 17.000 for out trade-in. This is all in Canadian dollars. So.......did we do okay? We were in the dealership for 3 1/2 hours!!
The way I look at it, if you're going to be returning to the dealer for maintenance you should walk out of there on good terms after your purchase. You're going to be seeing these people often in the future.
G
oh, and as far as good terms with the dealer, I agree... to an extent. After our 3rd service trip to our dealer, I've decided not to go back there anymore. The service department is not nearly as nice and customer-oriented as the sales department.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
1) The email quotes I have been getting have been trending down over the past month. I don't think there is a radical softening, but think there is definitely a trend. Given the way the new car market moves, the capacity of the pilot manufacturing, there is no reason not to expect steadily cheaper prices over the next couple of months.
2) Extended warranties, as one person already noted: "Regarding to the Ralph Schomp 7/100 warranty, you have to agree to use their services such as oil changes, ect. Otherwise, you warranty is not valid."
That is a very good point. Extended warranties, are the highest profit margin in any business, and as consumer reports notes, worth about $0.25 for every dollar you spend, and on cars often not worth it for free! (check the fine print you have to use their service on schedule and pay double to triple what you would pay at jiffy lube. Extended warranty sales are based on a known psychological phenomena known as "buyer's remorse" -- you spend a lot of money on something, feel some guilt but alleviate the guilt by spending more on supposedly "protecting" your purchase.
3) fog lights, mats, other "dealer options." I keep seeing notes from people saying they got a good deal but then seeing they got things they were not very interested in like fog lights, mats, lower trim amounting to $1,000 to $2,000 or more. The dealer profit on $1000 worth of dealer options is about $700...the vast majority of these options will add nothing to resale, and some will effectively increase maintenance costs. That $130 wood grain gear lever cost the dealer about $20. That $500 alarm can be put in your car at a circuit city for $150.
I will also give my two cents on integrated dvd systems. You would be NUTS to get one on any car. Just pick up a best buy circular or look on amazon, you can buy three better dvd movie players for what the integrated system costs. There are a dozen ways to hang them on the back of the seat and all come with car power cords. Not only are they way cheaper, but they will only get cheaper still. On top of that they are a precision mechanical device and will break. Do you want to have a honda one fixed for $500 or just buy two new ones for that price.
4) $950 towing packages. If you intend to use your tow receiver for a bike rack and say once or twice towing a small u-haul at half the vehicles tow rating, do not get a "towing package." A draw tight hitch for the pilot is about $120 delivered, and if you can't torque on the four bolts yourself, anyone will do it for $50 -- or $150 max if you want the wiring as well.
If you are going to tow a boat or anything over 50% rating, by all means get the towing package, but be aware that you can always get this after purchase from any honda dealer service dept, and for less then the price if bought at purchase. Do not be frightened by issues of warranty if you install a hitch for your bikes.
5) lastly I have seen some good advice and useful experience on these boards. But I have also read what is clear shilling (you can see it in the vernacular used) and more often people boasting about their deal on un-delivered cars with no follow-up as to how much actual drive-off prices was. It is natural that people want to get the lowest price, but it is also natural and evident that people don't say when they got bumped up taking the keys.
I think the edmonds true value pricing is the real diamond of information here. My advice, get as close as you can to the edmonds price without taking any "extras." and specifying in writing at deposit that you will accept no dealer options unspecified in that purchase agreement. Otherwise I promise you 80% of the dealers, especially the lowest price ones, will selling you that $130 wood shift lever handle, the $200 cassette add-on, and "special wheel" package and make twice the money you saved by negotiating the price over factory invoice
This is totally wrong. The manager of the service department, and the owner of the dealership, don't care if you took ten test drives through the sales department, wrang the salesmen through the ringer, drank the coffee, got the free key chain, and then went and bought your car at their hated competition down the road.
Just like they are not going to treat you any better if you were a sweet and compliant purchaser who paid more than you should have in belief that you are "establishing" a relationship."
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Some people say that their salesperson has gone to bat for them over some service issue, but most car salespeople don't last very long.
The service departments in most dealerships are a separate profit center from the car sales one, and most could care less where you bought your car.
It may be a good idea to remove the license plate holder that advertises the competing dealer up the road though.
Steve, Host
Even at a crass level, consider that your loose DVD players (you've used your money for more than one) injure, maim or kill someone in your car. It would take little in medical and/or funeral expenses to make up the difference that the "official" installation would have cost.
This is just one example. While your comments are more than appreciated, there is plenty of room for valid opinions that vary from your own.
qbrozen: I do agree that if you actively angered someone in Sales, there is some possibility that there might be a corresponding friend in the Service department who might make you pay (though I'm guessing that mutual distaste opinions being what they are between those two groups, it isn't likely!). However, bero is right that the profit to be made in Service will overcome a whole lot of potentially hurt feelings in Sales. Provided that the Service staff is pretty stable (probably much more so than the Sales staff is), it is worth the effort to focus on relationship development in that department instead.
Bero: That last statement above might well justify having your oil changes done at the dealership, even if it really is that much more than at Jiffy Lube (and it isn't here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area where the dealerships are trying to attract and hold maintenance business in an age of waning warranty work). What's more, I would much rather trust the dealer's Service department to get the filter and drain plug back on nice and tight, to notice that the fuel line is damaged, and generally to take a longer view on the overall state of my vehicle than the myopic, tunnel-visioned crew at a quick-oil-change shop. I've come close to disaster in trying to save a few bucks that way....
Geez, I guess why not go out and buy a Kia SUV that way we can save big bucks....and why not jack up the vehicle to change your own oil, that will save some more bucks right there.
All in all I will save a little over $1300. I would prefer to buy locally, but that is a little too much of a difference to ignore. I am thinking of using BT Auto Express to transport the car. Anyone heard of them?
- Mark
When I needed a warranty repair on my Chevy that I had brought over from the mainland, even the GM regional service rep couldn't get them to look at it for more than a month!
Of course, when you charge $10k over MSRP on every Tahoe you sell, you can afford to turn away some "Haole" cars...
I thought everyone over there bought used Sentras from the rental fleets anyway :-)
Steve, Host
$29,230 ($1000 over inv)
no options
Pruitt Honda
no problems
My price for a White 2004 EXL-RES was $31,830. I think (or so I am told) that I was getting accessories at cost. I got the following installed: (i) Fog Lights ($450); (ii) Roof Rail Cross Bars ($170); and (iii) Cargo Cover ($120). In addition, the week before I was supposed to get the Pilot, I called Faulkner because I wanted to add Mud Guards. They added them for free.
The best part about buying from Faulkner is that although they are a couple hundred miles away, they delivered the Pilot to me at no additional charge.
I do not know how good of a “deal” I got compared to other parts of the USA, but I am happy with the deal I got based on the prices I had seen in my area.
Andy
since i live in michigan i will go there...
does anyone know if oil filter changes are easy
for us do it yourselfers??? thank you!!!
Turns out I will not be buying from MI. The dealer in Corvallis, OR called me on Fri. They had a Black EXL that they have been having a hard time selling. Apparently Black is a harder sell up here. He told me that they were motivated to move it, because if they keep Pilot inventory on hand for too long it affects their allocation.
Anyway, he asked me if they could make a trade for a black EXL-RES, what would it take for me to buy the car. I really did not want black, but I told him $1200 below MSRP. He called me back and said that his manager gave the go ahead on the price and the trade was for a Midnight Blue EXL-RES with running boards, cross bars, splash guards and wheel locks. Well Midnight Blue was my original 1st choice and although I was not sure if I was going to go for any options, I figured that the options that the car had were ones that I would have considered, except for the Wheel Locks.
Anyway, to sum up my experience, I went from buying a car in Mi and shipping to OR to buying a car for immediate delivery in OR for $1200 below MSRP with $1100 of options that I may or may not have ordered. I also got a decent value for a trade in. I am fairly satisified with deal considering I do not have to worry about transporting my new car and stressing about any damage that might occur to it during transport.
I guess there are dealers on the west coast that are willing to deal if the circumstances are right. I think they pretty much need to have it on the lot though or readily available. It turns out another OR dealer called me about a Pilot EXL-RES on the lot that he was willing to do $1000 below, but I had already entered into contract.
in Ohio & Pa. $900-$950 OVER Invoice.
EXL was $1000.00 over Invoice.
No extras, $55-$75 Doc fees.
Peggy in Ohio was very friendly & helpful.
Dealer in Philly area seems good too.
I'll know by 10 a.m.
Regards,
Pete
Your comments are welcomed and appreciated.
You should/should-have AGGRESSIVELY negotiated the price though and perhaps shopped other dealers - you don't need to purchase the warranty at the same dealership where you bought the car.
Extended warranties have huge profit margins built-in - people who work in dealerships say that essentially all profit from new car sales is generated in extended warranties, credit life insurance, and various protection packages which are generally expensive wax jobs. (Which is fine with me - I never get this stuff, so others pay for me getting a bare-bones deal on the basic car.)
- Mark
P.S. - I checked the spelling and will from now on spell warranty correctly.