A 6-sp Accord Coupe Hybrid would be far more attractive. Or an Accord V-6 with cylinder deactivation, getting excellent highway mpg. I agree, Show me an improvement that is significant, to offset the much higher cost. I know the American public keep buying these little SUV's. They have a less than desirable roll-over safety record. A good handling smaller car is a wiser, safer choice.
I don't know about you guys ,but I trust Edmunds a lot more then the Washington Post. Don't be so gullable, its obvious the guy in the washington post was lieing. Edmunds avg. 50mpg in city WITH the AWD. Dont believe me? Read the article.
After promising the debut of this vehicle for a good three years, Ford is finally bringing the highly anticipated Escape Hybrid to market. First shown as a concept at the 2001 Los Angeles Auto Show, the Escape Hybrid promises great fuel economy (in the range of 30 to 35 mpg) along with spirited V6-like performance. With the price of regular gasoline currently flirting (in L.A.) with $2.50 a gallon, the timing couldn't be better. Of course, there's also the benefit of reducing the consumption of a finite resource and reducing air pollution. But if Americans' appetite for gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs is any indication, it seems that those concerns aren't nearly as important as a serious hit to the wallet. In any event, we were eager to see if and how the Escape Hybrid lived up to the lofty goals Ford has for it. Could it really get nearly double the mileage of the V6 Escape without giving up zippy performance?
Looking at this Escape, you'd be hard-pressed to tell it apart from its "normal" siblings. A 2005 model, the Hybrid shares the same updates (such as a restyled front end and a console-mounted gearshift) that the whole Escape line received this spring. If you scrutinize the Hybrid, you may notice its unique wheels and "Hybrid" badges but other than that, you might as well be looking at any other Escape. And that's how Ford wants it — why mess with the styling of the top-selling compact SUV?
The same philosophy holds true for the cabin, where the gauge cluster looks fairly standard until you notice the leftmost instrument that shows whether the battery pack is "assisting" or "charging." Within the tachometer face, there is a small, two-line message center display that shows average fuel economy, indicates estimated oil life and displays warnings such as "liftgate open." There is also the option of a navigation system, located in the center stack, whose screen can display graphics showing the energy flow to and from the various drivetrain components.
As with Toyota's Prius, the Escape Hybrid operates solely in electric mode at low speeds (up to around 25 mph or so) and low-demand (light throttle application) situations. This is why it gets higher mileage in the city, where it's quite possible to stay in electric mode most of the time. But even at low speeds, if you step into it a little more, the gas motor will fire up and kick in, relieving the electric motor and allowing the permanent battery pack to recharge. High-demand situations, such as accelerating hard or running up a hill, will have both motors running in tandem. Like the Prius, the Escape Hybrid's gas engine shuts off when the vehicle is stopped or coasting, automatically (and almost instantly) starting back up when needed.
The Hybrid's 2.3-liter inline four is essentially the same Duratec unit found in four-cylinder Escapes, except that it uses what's called the Atkinson cycle. For you gearheads among our readership, this means that the intake valve stays open longer than normal after the piston starts upward on its compression stroke, reducing "pumping losses" and sending some of the air-fuel mixture back into the intake tract, thus reducing fuel consumption. Optimizing fuel efficiency in this fashion comes at the expense of low-end torque. But with a torquey electric motor on hand to get the vehicle moving from a stop and assist when more power is needed, this doesn't present a problem.
The gas engine is rated at 133 horsepower, while the electric motor is rated at 94 horses. When combined, they make 155 hp, which may seem odd, as you probably think it should be 227. But there is a formula used to calculate total output and it isn't simply a matter of adding their output figures together. Although 155 ponies doesn't sound like much, the broad power band of the electric motor means that the net result is indeed V6-like performance. On our driving loop, which included running up the Hollywood Hills and cruising at 75 mph on the freeway, the Escape Hybrid felt as energetic as an Escape V6.
In place of the usual automatic transmission, a continuously variable transmission (CVT) does a fine job of delivering the power in a seamless fashion. It's also pretty quick to step down to a lower ratio (we'd say gear, except it doesn't have those) when you want some pickup. To maximize efficiency, the Escape Hybrid employs regenerative braking that in effect turns the electric motor into a generator upon deceleration. When the driver lifts off the gas pedal, the spinning motor sends energy back to the battery pack.
Unlike a full electric vehicle, the Escape Hybrid never has to be "plugged in" for a recharge. The battery pack is kept charged by the gas engine and the regenerative braking feature. The pack itself consists of a relatively compact unit under the cargo floor comprised of 250 D-sized nickel-metal-hydride batteries. Those worried about the longevity of the pack can take comfort in the 8-year/100,000-mile warranty that Ford provides for it.
In the spirit of this vehicle's mission, our day started with a contest to see who could get the best mileage on a brief six-mile loop around downtown Culver City, Calif. We paired up and set out, keeping in mind the tenets of maximizing fuel economy: going light and easy on the gas and keeping any sudden changes in direction or momentum to a minimum. My driving partner and I had an all-wheel-drive Escape Hybrid, which Ford estimates will pull 32 mpg in the city and 27 on the highway. Front-drivers earn higher estimates of 37 city and 30 highway.
For the record, this leadfoot, who drove as if an egg was beneath the gas pedal, got 35 mpg and was near the top of the list (for the AWD models). Alas, the celebration was short-lived, as my partner got 50 mpg on her go-round! Of course, she had almost all green lights, while my efforts were hindered by a string of reds But all kidding aside, we were thoroughly impressed by the fact that we both soundly beat Ford's own city estimates for the AWD version. Our only complaint with the powertrain was a minor one — the engine gets a little buzzy while maintaining speeds of 55 mph or above on long uphill stretches.
Beyond the cake-and-eat-it powertrain, the Escape Hybrid performs like any other Escape. That is to say, it delivers a pleasant driving experience with handling that is more sport sedan than SUV. The electric power steering (exclusive to the Hybrid) was natural in feel, so none of the enjoyment of taking an Escape through a twisty road was lost.
We have to admit, there were some jokes going around the office about when Ford was finally going to bring the Escape Hybrid to market. "They're waiting for gas prices to go up." "It's a Ford, look how long it
"It's a Ford, look how long it took them to get the T-bird into showrooms." OK, so we had a few laughs at Ford's expense, but we're not laughing now and feel moved to congratulate the manufacturer. The company still managed to be the first to bring out a hybrid version of an SUV, a category that needs this fuel- and environment-saving technology a lot more than the small sedan segment does. The 2005 Escape Hybrid goes on sale later this summer and, considering how polished this first effort is, it's been well worth the wait.
It sounds like we need more real world test drives. One article says 30 mpg city the other 35-50 city. What I did not like was the 23 mpg highway. I did not see where Edmund's did a real highway 70 mph for a couple hours type test. If they can get 35-50 mpg out of that Escape, then put the same hybrid system into a Ford Ranger size PU. I would break down and buy a Ford.
""...started with a contest to see who could get the best mileage on a brief six-mile loop around downtown Culver City, Calif. We paired up and set out, keeping in mind the tenets of maximizing fuel economy: going light and easy on the gas and keeping any sudden changes in direction or momentum to a minimum. My driving partner and I had an all-wheel-drive Escape Hybrid, which Ford estimates will pull 32 mpg in the city and 27 on the highway. Front-drivers earn higher estimates of 37 city and 30 highway.
For the record, this leadfoot, who drove as if an egg was beneath the gas pedal, got 35 mpg and was near the top of the list (for the AWD ). Alas, the celebration was short-lived, as my partner got 50 mpg on her go-round!""
Duh!
I already commented on the non-usefulness of that very Short, 6-mile drive to maximize mpg. This is NOT Real live conditions.
I certainly trust the total average MPG the Wash Post Auto Critic got over several hundred miles, than this contest to maximize MPG that Edmunds offers in place of a serious MPG measurement.
The W post guy still got 30 city. I expected that. This is far better than any small SUV city numbers, even a small civic's. That is the advantage o fthe hybrid, engine shut-offs, brake regeneration of power, etc.
I also buy its 23 mpg highway, since the escape hybrid is 500 lbs heavier than a comparable non-hybrid, and on the highway, all the hybrid advantages abov edissapear.
The prius is rated 60 city, 51 highway. City is 9 mpg better,
if one accepts that the Escape gets 30 city, therefore one would expect to get 23 highway, 7 mpg less.
I must have missed something. There is no way in the world you can do a mileage test over a 6 mile loop. I cannot believe a legitimate reporter would try to push that off on someone. And if they used the electronic MPG as a basis that is even worse. The type data I believe is John in MN that keeps track over a long period of time. That is real MPG data. The WP test drive was probably closer to real world than Edmund's 6 mile she got all the green lights test.
Unfortunately I will have to take the side of the Wash Post. I believe their numbers are accurate. I can drive very carefully and easily get 60 MPG in suburban driving in my '04 Prius, but overall, when driving normally, I get 48-49 avg. Regardless, I can assure you that Ford will not have any trouble selling ANY Hybrid Escapes. Let's see the real world numbers for the Lexus/Highlander when they're finally test driven (in a few years??).
MPG numbers aside, that review in the Sunday POST's "Car Pages" leaves a lot to be desired. Aside from a few stats under the "Nuts & Bolts" banner, it hardly tells us anything about the vehicle's features. How well does it manage cargo? How comfortable are the seats? What about safety engineering?
So, o.k., the focus is on mileage and "performance". But, geesh, the guy seems to be BOWLED OVER by what, 23 MILES PER GALLON, vs. 21 EPA MPG for a comparable Hyundai Santa Fe? Whoa! I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for this car.
The review reinforces a conclusion I've been coming to. If fuel economy (and national energy-independence) is the issue, for the kind of driving most Americans do, in the heavier cars many of us drive, modern diesel is the way to go. Hybrids are at their best in light-weight cars, in stop-and-go city traffic (where the review reports a relatively decent 30 MPG). But for that kind of driving, why in the world do you want an SUV in the first place?
Once diesel fuel is CLEAN, maybe it will be a good alternative. For now, we have the hybrid technology as a stepping stone. I gave up a Liberty that was getting 16 overall and now I average close to 50 in my '04 Prius. Not bad!!!
The latest estimate is for the oil to dry up by 2026
I agree with your assessment of the greenies in Hollywood. I am curious where you got your 2026 figure for world oil depletion. The Vice President of the oil production in Alaska told me that they would still be extracting oil from Prudhoe Bay in 2050, long after he and I were retired. Alaska is a drop in the bucket compared to many of the world's oil fields. Just to stay on the subject of Escape hybrids. Any new mileage tests would be appreciated.
This according to a press release on media.ford.com. I don't know if I'm allowed to post it as I've been rebuked for posting other materials in the past.
Bottom line: Escape Hybrid is auctioned off for $40,000 to support a local CA environmental organization - "Heal the Bay".
This doesn't surprise me, why would the U.S. gov help Toyota and Honda and turn their back on GM & Ford ? - snip - American consumers thinking of buying next generation vehicles such as fuel cell cars or hybrid-electric models are in line for a series of tax incentives designed to drive up demand. The Detroit News is reporting that the Senate is considering passing a new bill that could yield tax breaks of up to $4000 per owner. http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room/1087902003.html
Calling the Escape and egg I feel is unfair. Renting a stripped down model is no comparision to a SUV which you would buy. Ever try parking a huge SUV in a tight parking lot? I can see why other countries laugh at the USA where a gigantic SUV, getting 12 MPG is used to carry one person running errands.
I hope any car manufacture can solve this problem.
I had almost forgotten that post. First the Escape they gave me in Hawaii was not stripped down at all. It had anything I would want except enough room for two people and our luggage. Not to mention I had paid for an Explorer sized vehicle and they claimed the Escape was in the same category. I am not a big fan of Ford in the first place. But when looking at property in Hawaii 4WD and clearance are a must. Quite frankly the Trailblazer I rented in May over there was a much nicer vehicle than the Explorer. Roomier, more power & better handling. And I have no trouble parking my Suburban in the places I shop.
I had almost forgotten that post. First the Escape they gave me in Hawaii was not stripped down at all. It had anything I would want except enough room for two people and our luggage. Not to mention I had paid for an Explorer sized vehicle and they claimed the Escape was in the same category. I am not a big fan of Ford in the first place. But when looking at property in Hawaii 4WD and clearance are a must. Quite frankly the Trailblazer I rented in May over there was a much nicer vehicle than the Explorer. Roomier, more power & better handling. And I have no trouble parking my Suburban in the places I shop.
It is a good thing they are making the Escape into a hybrid. As it is now, it is a bigger polluter than the Suburban and gets a paltry 3 MPG better mileage, with less than half the cargo space or 66 CF vs 132 CF in the Suburban. And the Suburban has a 600 mile range. I don't see a reason in the world to buy an Escape. It may be cheap to buy but will not hold it's resale value. My neighbor keeps offering me $20k for my 6 year old Suburban that I bought for $34k. The Escape has not been around for 6 years so by comparison a top of the line Explorer is worth about $7k right now and I'll bet it was $25k new. And I have not had to be jammed in a sardine can for the last 6 years. Except for the one day in Hawaii...
As long as you brought it up. Go into Edmund's and check out the consumer reviews on the 2003 Escape. Very poor reliability. Many said they would never buy another Ford. Listen to what the people that have owned one say... I'm done ranting..
Why read reviews of the 03 when the 05 is out. Yea it (the Escape) had growing pains but they seem to have been resolved, also the Escape is a bigger polluter than the same year Suburban ? I have no proof one way or the other but they are two different vehicles, kinda like comparing a Corolla to a Prius, apples to oranges. I keep thinking GM will pull the wraps off a 45 MPG Suburban or is that expecting too much from a company with 110 years under their belt with deep pockets ?
I thought the whole reason for miniature cars like the Escape was to get better mileage and less pollution. The Escape does neither. Go to the EPA website and pull up a comparison to any vehicles you like. The New Escape is a big polluter in it's class. I am sure that is why Ford picked it to try the hybrid design on.
I think if you check into Autmotive history Henry Ford was credited with mass producing cars. They have never been the leader in gas mileage. And I have owned a bunch of them.
According to the EPA, the Escape (in 4 and 6 cylidner's) pollution is about average for it's class. Even the same as the Toyota Rav4 for that matter. The "BIG" polluter for that category would be the Audi All-Road.
They also list 2004 models, let's not forget the 2005 Escape has a new base engine and new on board diagnostics system as well, which does much better with emmissions.
2005 Escape has a new base engine and new on board diagnostics system as well
Does that mean a whole new round of failures for the people that buy a 2005 Escape? The last post said they just got all the problems from the 2003 ironed out, now they are changing to a new engine. First year of anything is usually a lot of shop time. Maybe they should do what several owners suggested, just scrap the Escape completely...
I went to the green vehicle guide on epa.gov and the '04 Escape gets a "6" (so do other vehicles in its class) while a 1500 Suburban gets a "3" but hey the 'burb can tow more, seat more, has a bigger engine etc so apples to oranges comparison - I would guess the Escape is getting the hybrid treatment cause its a logical choice for it.
According to the EPA chart I am looking at the 2004 Suburban gets a 7 and the Escape a 6. And you are correct it does everything better except parking in a compact spot. And gets 3 less miles to the gallon.
"Does that mean a whole new round of failures for the people that buy a 2005 Escape? The last post said they just got all the problems from the 2003 ironed out, now they are changing to a new engine"
The problems related to the first Escapes, were not directly related to engine, moreso components overall. As for 2003, reliability improved 23% from previous year number's (according to Ford).
Secondly, the 2.3L I-4 is not a new engine. Ford has used this engine on the Mazda6i and Mazda3s. As well as the Ford Ranger. The engine is one of the better engines of it's class, and built to be pretty much bulletproof, so there shouldn't be a concern about it's reliability.
There's a version of this same engine on the Focus (engine 2.3L E) which allows the Focus to be classified as PZEV (Partial Zero Emmissions Vehicle) which is the version which will go into the Escape Hybrid.
"According to the EPA chart I am looking at the 2004 Suburban gets a 7 and the Escape a 6"
So the whining is about 1 point? Is it really an issue? No vehicle is perfect, point to one that is please.
As for the people having issues, ALL vehicles have issues. Even Toyota's and Honda's. What you mostly find online are the people complaining about the issue, over the one's complimenting the issue. How many times have you gone out of your way to tell a store manager that everything was great in the store and the service was excellent? Hence, people only speak when they have something to complain about, and that's what you will mostly see on such online boards.
I would be the devils' advocate against a MB or RR, if I see a bunch of unsubstantiated claims for a vehicle. That is how all this started. Some reporter saying they got 50 mpg in an Hybrid Escape on a 6 mile drive around LA. Only because they hit all the lights. That kind of reporting needs to be rebutted and I did. I just threw in my experience with the Escape for effect.
Thanks for the URL as a side note first maybe I should invest in this company? Have to do some digging. If the average person is to be expected to invest in Hybrid an incenitive would be nice. That amount is mucho larger than what I got for my doemestic "solar" water heater in 1979. Hopefully Ford and others won't use the incentives as a signal to raise prices? And yes the reliablity issue is an even bigger issue for me. The mechanics training at the dealerships isn't up to snuff for OBD II now, let adding the Hybid marketing snafu to the mechnaics problems. How many hours of labor is the public over paying now, while the teach themsleves??? One or two weeks of training in No way makes you an expert! I know for a fact they ARE! I and a group of car buffs (web site) (Contours/Mystiques and Mondeo owners) have been sharing and helping troubleshoot just he OBD-II. We've are using the same info that the dealers have for there mechanics. No matter how good the mechanic is we all really fell for those guys. I'm former electronics troubleshooter with 30 plus years with the phone company and military (radios). And now they want to add this Hybrid on them. I sure wouldn't want do that work and the conditions they have to work under. That's why diesel (common rail) should be the next step not Hybrid. (330vdc battery packs, 42 vdc operating systems, generator/starting motor and not mention additional CPU/software.) Oh yes EPA and clean air, give me a break, they are as out of control as the BLM, Army Corp of Engineers and the group doing R&D testing right now in area 51. Paul Echelberger N8BUU PM me, my bio has my e-mail or if your a Ham QRZ has my e-mail
So instead, we are to believe the worst case senario, of it making 20MPG, the experience of one (out of many) reporters? People are quick to judge and take the worst case senario, instead of taking an average of all the information and come to an average conclusion. That and nit-pick as an excuse not to buy something because it fell of their criteria by one point heh...
At this point we are arguing about a vehicle that does not exist on a dealers showroom from what I can tell. This thread started almost two years ago and nothing for the real world to pick apart. It may never make it to the showroom. So you are defending a non entity. The Prius, Insight & Civic HCH are still the only hybrids that a real person has bought and can give a fair opinion on. So that leaves me and anyone else to extrapolate what we will from experiences with the non-hybrid Escape. Which I think is a big disappointment to many that have bought them.
Then your accusing a non-entity as well since the Hybrid isn't out yet. The regular Escape has it's own board for complaining. What we are discussing so far pertains to the Hybrid, and how the media has received it so far. Real hardcore testing has yet to be done with it.
"Which I think is a big disappointment to many that have bought them."
I know numerous people with Escapes, and non have an any major issue or dissapointments with them. The closest was one who had a 2001, and she was called in for 2 recalls, and that didn't distract her from the enjoyment of her vehicle. But as I've mentioned, most of those you will see on these boards will complain because it's their mission to do so because they have a grudge of axe to grind.
I'm not a HAM operator, even had 2 look QRZ and BRM up in my acronym finder every ham I've known has really been sharp though ! I agree all the electronics (OBD II included) seems to have overwhelmed lots of mechanics and maybe the powers that be at Fo Mo Co will say enough is enough and really train their sales/service/parts force, who knows the Escape hybrid might do good things for other Ford vehicles as well. For sure the Escape hybrid needs to be a success from the get go or some will say hybrids are nothing but trouble or typical Ford and if that happens the Japaneese will come along and clean up - Ford really has a good chance at success, as someone just said the hybrid will use the same gas engine as the Focus, the chassis is tried & true, some of the hybrid parts/teck come from Toyota all that is left is to put the pieces together and make it work (easy for me to say) Whats closer ULSD or the Escape hybrid ? - Come on Ford make Henry proud !
Maybe Ford is smart not going head to head against Toyota & Honda. The Prius has had several years to work out the kinks. You got to wonder if Toyota sold Ford the latest hybrid technology or some of the older stuff. I don't think there is any love lost between them. Why would they sell the latest when they are having supply difficulty of their own. Especially batteries. Is Ford going with Panasonic for the NiMHs?
Then your accusing a non-entity as well since the Hybrid isn't out yet.
I am accusing Ford of doing what Bill Gates and Microsoft do. Get the public all fired up about a new widget then keep putting off rolling it out. If you remember the first Prius. It came on the scene with little or no fanfare. then as they sold and fixed the problems they got more publicity which was mostly good. If the Escape flops Ford will look stupid and lose a lot of market share.
OOPs Sorry I can proof-read until I'm blue in the face. Jeeze "BLM" And now my e-mail should be visible. It's hard to keep the 15 month old grandson entertained and concentrate. Not to mention my "Forgetter works way better than the "Remember-er"! Thanks for the complements about the Hams you know, however since the FCC relaxed licensing even Amateur community not what it was. Too much proprietary Everything in our throw away society is geared at the bottom-line, the poor engineer is not even allowed to think about reparability! Yes I to would love to see Ford introduce a decent vehicle, also, the country deserves better. I have to add, in honor of the Ole Marine who raised me, (in his words "luckily survived Iwo Jima") it's my duty to fight for what the WW II generation gave we Americans. E-mail me I'll give you the title of the book about the BLM and Corp, if you,re interested? Paul
" It came on the scene with little or no fanfare. then as they sold and fixed the problems they got more publicity which was mostly good. If the Escape flops Ford will look stupid and lose a lot of market share"
As the same occured with the Focus and Escape...they were introduced with some recalls, and got better as time went on. The Focus itself is now one of the most reliable entries in it's segment as Ford continued to fine-tune the vehicle.
If the Escape Hybrid doesn't work for Ford, the vehicle still is the best seller in it's segment, with 17% higher sales than last year's period. 20K Hybrids won't hurt it. The Escape (as with all techonology) will certainly have it's risks. If it works great for some people, (whatever their needs are) they will be rewarded, if not they'll use it as an excuse never to buy domestic ever again.
I took the change when buying my previous Lincoln LS in 2000. And was definately rewarded taking that chance, whereas I bought another recently. Again, a new vehicle with new techonology, platform, drivetrains, etc. will definately have it's risk. IN relation to the Escape, it's just a different powertrain overall, and some numerous upgrades from last year's version.
BLM = Border Liaison Mechanism or buzzword lifecycle management I would love to read about it, will e-mail you - hey gagrice what problems did the original Prius have, I heard the OEM tires weren't that great and the 12 volt battery was on the small side but what else ? There must be more so help me out.
I would go to the Toyota Prius 1997-2003 forum. There were a lot of little nit picky and a few major problems. Most were covered by a very generous warranty. It started out with an 8 year 100k mile bumper to bumper. They cut that back sometime after the 2001 model. Personally I think they are too new to take a chance on one that is not still covered by warranty. Hopefully they are transferable.
FWIW, the engine has a new Atkinson cycle so it's at least a new iteration of the 2.3l. There are several, actually, plain, VVT, PZEV, and now Atkinson.
It's like 31 flavors. ;-)
I think this thread would be a lot more interesting if people would lighten up a bit, on both sides of the issue.
I just got off the phone with a Ford sales manager here in San Diego. She said they had expected the Escape Hybrid by now. She has over 100 people on the list to buy. Now they are telling her September at the earliest. And then only two per dealer per month. She is so upset having so many people on the list and no cars to sell them. Sounds like the Prius scam all over. The problem is those people get all hyped up to buy a car they go looking for an alternative. Maybe a great handling high mileage Jetta Wagon TDI except in CA and those other 4 flaky states.
Did you hear the latest about the Lexus RX400h, supposedly it has now been delayed 6 months. Instead of December 2004, it will now not be available until June 2005
The FAQs on lexus.com say (the 400h) will go on sale this fall but that doesn't say much (start taking deposits in the fall ?) Where did you hear December now June is that your guesstimate ?
Now why wouldn't the Saudi's be interested in a hybrid ? - snip - TALK about ungrateful: Not a single Saudi official would come with me for a ride in a new hybrid, gasoline-sipping SUV. http://www.nypost.com/seven/06242004/business/23636.htm
See post # 208 on the Lexus 400h thread. I think we are seeing the demise of the hybrid before our very eyes. I thought it would take longer than this. See GM's announcement on post #1236 of hybrid vs Diesel. They are still the major player in the world. They sold 3 million more cars than either Ford or Toyota in 2003.
I saw lots of posts in the Lexus 400h thread. Wonder if there's any more info than whats on the forums here, you wish hybrids would go away but their not from what I can tell.
Sorry, there is so much activity on the hybrid boards,especially people communicating with John on the "diesel vs Hybrid " board, that I didn't have the exact message at hand, but here it is:
Gm the major player in the world? In sheer numbers, yes, but not in leading technology. Toyota, Ford & Honda are the major players leading out in technology. GM puts Hybrids in full sized pickups, that get a 2% increase in fuel mileage? Great idea.... Still, I think Hybrid is a short lived fad myself too. I'll be surprised, very surprised, if anybody is doing hybrids in 10 years.
I would not bet that Toyota, Honda & Ford are leading the pack technologically. There are many on this forum that would agree. I will wait till the fat lady sings. I hope she isn't banking on that hybrid PU truck. I agree about hybrids they are similar to Apple computers. Very clever but you have to go to the source for every little problem. Then they get you.
Comments
I agree, Show me an improvement that is significant, to offset the much higher cost.
I know the American public keep buying these little SUV's. They have a less than desirable roll-over safety record. A good handling smaller car is a wiser, safer choice.
Dont believe me? Read the article.
After promising the debut of this vehicle for a good three years, Ford is finally bringing the highly anticipated Escape Hybrid to market. First shown as a concept at the 2001 Los Angeles Auto Show, the Escape Hybrid promises great fuel economy (in the range of 30 to 35 mpg) along with spirited V6-like performance. With the price of regular gasoline currently flirting (in L.A.) with $2.50 a gallon, the timing couldn't be better. Of course, there's also the benefit of reducing the consumption of a finite resource and reducing air pollution. But if Americans' appetite for gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs is any indication, it seems that those concerns aren't nearly as important as a serious hit to the wallet. In any event, we were eager to see if and how the Escape Hybrid lived up to the lofty goals Ford has for it. Could it really get nearly double the mileage of the V6 Escape without giving up zippy performance?
Looking at this Escape, you'd be hard-pressed to tell it apart from its "normal" siblings. A 2005 model, the Hybrid shares the same updates (such as a restyled front end and a console-mounted gearshift) that the whole Escape line received this spring. If you scrutinize the Hybrid, you may notice its unique wheels and "Hybrid" badges but other than that, you might as well be looking at any other Escape. And that's how Ford wants it — why mess with the styling of the top-selling compact SUV?
The same philosophy holds true for the cabin, where the gauge cluster looks fairly standard until you notice the leftmost instrument that shows whether the battery pack is "assisting" or "charging." Within the tachometer face, there is a small, two-line message center display that shows average fuel economy, indicates estimated oil life and displays warnings such as "liftgate open." There is also the option of a navigation system, located in the center stack, whose screen can display graphics showing the energy flow to and from the various drivetrain components.
As with Toyota's Prius, the Escape Hybrid operates solely in electric mode at low speeds (up to around 25 mph or so) and low-demand (light throttle application) situations. This is why it gets higher mileage in the city, where it's quite possible to stay in electric mode most of the time. But even at low speeds, if you step into it a little more, the gas motor will fire up and kick in, relieving the electric motor and allowing the permanent battery pack to recharge. High-demand situations, such as accelerating hard or running up a hill, will have both motors running in tandem. Like the Prius, the Escape Hybrid's gas engine shuts off when the vehicle is stopped or coasting, automatically (and almost instantly) starting back up when needed.
The Hybrid's 2.3-liter inline four is essentially the same Duratec unit found in four-cylinder Escapes, except that it uses what's called the Atkinson cycle. For you gearheads among our readership, this means that the intake valve stays open longer than normal after the piston starts upward on its compression stroke, reducing "pumping losses" and sending some of the air-fuel mixture back into the intake tract, thus reducing fuel consumption. Optimizing fuel efficiency in this fashion comes at the expense of low-end torque. But with a torquey electric motor on hand to get the vehicle moving from a stop and assist when more power is needed, this doesn't present a problem.
The gas engine is rated at 133 horsepower, while the electric motor is rated at 94 horses. When combined, they make 155 hp, which may seem odd, as you probably think it should be 227. But there is a formula used to calculate total output and it isn't simply a matter of adding their output figures together. Although 155 ponies doesn't sound like much, the broad power band of the electric motor means that the net result is indeed V6-like performance. On our driving loop, which included running up the Hollywood Hills and cruising at 75 mph on the freeway, the Escape Hybrid felt as energetic as an Escape V6.
In place of the usual automatic transmission, a continuously variable transmission (CVT) does a fine job of delivering the power in a seamless fashion. It's also pretty quick to step down to a lower ratio (we'd say gear, except it doesn't have those) when you want some pickup. To maximize efficiency, the Escape Hybrid employs regenerative braking that in effect turns the electric motor into a generator upon deceleration. When the driver lifts off the gas pedal, the spinning motor sends energy back to the battery pack.
Unlike a full electric vehicle, the Escape Hybrid never has to be "plugged in" for a recharge. The battery pack is kept charged by the gas engine and the regenerative braking feature. The pack itself consists of a relatively compact unit under the cargo floor comprised of 250 D-sized nickel-metal-hydride batteries. Those worried about the longevity of the pack can take comfort in the 8-year/100,000-mile warranty that Ford provides for it.
In the spirit of this vehicle's mission, our day started with a contest to see who could get the best mileage on a brief six-mile loop around downtown Culver City, Calif. We paired up and set out, keeping in mind the tenets of maximizing fuel economy: going light and easy on the gas and keeping any sudden changes in direction or momentum to a minimum. My driving partner and I had an all-wheel-drive Escape Hybrid, which Ford estimates will pull 32 mpg in the city and 27 on the highway. Front-drivers earn higher estimates of 37 city and 30 highway.
For the record, this leadfoot, who drove as if an egg was beneath the gas pedal, got 35 mpg and was near the top of the list (for the AWD models). Alas, the celebration was short-lived, as my partner got 50 mpg on her go-round! Of course, she had almost all green lights, while my efforts were hindered by a string of reds But all kidding aside, we were thoroughly impressed by the fact that we both soundly beat Ford's own city estimates for the AWD version. Our only complaint with the powertrain was a minor one — the engine gets a little buzzy while maintaining speeds of 55 mph or above on long uphill stretches.
Beyond the cake-and-eat-it powertrain, the Escape Hybrid performs like any other Escape. That is to say, it delivers a pleasant driving experience with handling that is more sport sedan than SUV. The electric power steering (exclusive to the Hybrid) was natural in feel, so none of the enjoyment of taking an Escape through a twisty road was lost.
We have to admit, there were some jokes going around the office about when Ford was finally going to bring the Escape Hybrid to market. "They're waiting for gas prices to go up." "It's a Ford, look how long it
For the record, this leadfoot, who drove as if an egg was beneath the gas pedal, got 35 mpg and was near the top of the list (for the AWD ). Alas, the celebration was short-lived, as my partner got 50 mpg on her go-round!""
Duh!
I already commented on the non-usefulness of that very Short, 6-mile drive to maximize mpg. This is NOT Real live conditions.
I certainly trust the total average MPG the Wash Post Auto Critic got over several hundred miles, than this contest to maximize MPG that Edmunds offers in place of a serious MPG measurement.
The W post guy still got 30 city. I expected that. This is far better than any small SUV city numbers, even a small civic's. That is the advantage o fthe hybrid, engine shut-offs, brake regeneration of power, etc.
I also buy its 23 mpg highway, since the escape hybrid is 500 lbs heavier than a comparable non-hybrid, and on the highway, all the hybrid advantages abov edissapear.
The prius is rated 60 city, 51 highway. City is 9 mpg better,
if one accepts that the Escape gets 30 city, therefore one would expect to get 23 highway, 7 mpg less.
Perhaps the Wash post test Eacape Hybrid was the AWD, not the 2WD version.
Big difference. Even in the Edmund test, the 2wd got an alleged 50 mpg!
So, o.k., the focus is on mileage and "performance". But, geesh, the guy seems to be BOWLED OVER by what, 23 MILES PER GALLON, vs. 21 EPA MPG for a comparable Hyundai Santa Fe? Whoa! I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for this car.
The review reinforces a conclusion I've been coming to. If fuel economy (and national energy-independence) is the issue, for the kind of driving most Americans do, in the heavier cars many of us drive, modern diesel is the way to go. Hybrids are at their best in light-weight cars, in stop-and-go city traffic (where the review reports a relatively decent 30 MPG). But for that kind of driving, why in the world do you want an SUV in the first place?
I agree with your assessment of the greenies in Hollywood. I am curious where you got your 2026 figure for world oil depletion. The Vice President of the oil production in Alaska told me that they would still be extracting oil from Prudhoe Bay in 2050, long after he and I were retired. Alaska is a drop in the bucket compared to many of the world's oil fields. Just to stay on the subject of Escape hybrids. Any new mileage tests would be appreciated.
He drove an automatic Subaru Forester and commented that he thought it had a six cylinder engine.
Read his stuff, you'll see what I mean.
-juice
Bottom line: Escape Hybrid is auctioned off for $40,000 to support a local CA environmental organization - "Heal the Bay".
http://www.platinum.matthey.com/media_room/1087902003.html
I hope any car manufacture can solve this problem.
I think if you check into Autmotive history Henry Ford was credited with mass producing cars. They have never been the leader in gas mileage. And I have owned a bunch of them.
They also list 2004 models, let's not forget the 2005 Escape has a new base engine and new on board diagnostics system as well, which does much better with emmissions.
Does that mean a whole new round of failures for the people that buy a 2005 Escape? The last post said they just got all the problems from the 2003 ironed out, now they are changing to a new engine. First year of anything is usually a lot of shop time. Maybe they should do what several owners suggested, just scrap the Escape completely...
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
The problems related to the first Escapes, were not directly related to engine, moreso components overall. As for 2003, reliability improved 23% from previous year number's (according to Ford).
Secondly, the 2.3L I-4 is not a new engine. Ford has used this engine on the Mazda6i and Mazda3s. As well as the Ford Ranger. The engine is one of the better engines of it's class, and built to be pretty much bulletproof, so there shouldn't be a concern about it's reliability.
There's a version of this same engine on the Focus (engine 2.3L E) which allows the Focus to be classified as PZEV (Partial Zero Emmissions Vehicle) which is the version which will go into the Escape Hybrid.
"According to the EPA chart I am looking at the 2004 Suburban gets a 7 and the Escape a 6"
So the whining is about 1 point? Is it really an issue? No vehicle is perfect, point to one that is please.
As for the people having issues, ALL vehicles have issues. Even Toyota's and Honda's. What you mostly find online are the people complaining about the issue, over the one's complimenting the issue. How many times have you gone out of your way to tell a store manager that everything was great in the store and the service was excellent? Hence, people only speak when they have something to complain about, and that's what you will mostly see on such online boards.
If the average person is to be expected to invest in Hybrid an incenitive would be nice. That amount is mucho larger than what I got for my doemestic "solar" water heater in 1979.
Hopefully Ford and others won't use the incentives as a signal to raise prices?
And yes the reliablity issue is an even bigger issue for me. The mechanics training at the dealerships isn't up to snuff for OBD II now, let adding the Hybid marketing snafu to the mechnaics problems. How many hours of labor is the public over paying now, while the teach themsleves??? One or two weeks of training in No way makes you an expert!
I know for a fact they ARE! I and a group of car buffs (web site) (Contours/Mystiques and Mondeo owners) have been sharing and helping troubleshoot just he OBD-II. We've are using the same info that the dealers have for there mechanics. No matter how good the mechanic is we all really fell for those guys.
I'm former electronics troubleshooter with 30 plus years with the phone company and military (radios).
And now they want to add this Hybrid on them. I sure wouldn't want do that work and the conditions they have to work under.
That's why diesel (common rail) should be the next step not Hybrid. (330vdc battery packs, 42 vdc operating systems, generator/starting motor and not mention additional CPU/software.)
Oh yes EPA and clean air, give me a break, they are as out of control as the BLM, Army Corp of Engineers and the group doing R&D testing right now in area 51.
Paul Echelberger
N8BUU
PM me, my bio has my e-mail or if your a Ham QRZ has my e-mail
Then your accusing a non-entity as well since the Hybrid isn't out yet. The regular Escape has it's own board for complaining. What we are discussing so far pertains to the Hybrid, and how the media has received it so far. Real hardcore testing has yet to be done with it.
"Which I think is a big disappointment to many that have bought them."
I know numerous people with Escapes, and non have an any major issue or dissapointments with them. The closest was one who had a 2001, and she was called in for 2 recalls, and that didn't distract her from the enjoyment of her vehicle. But as I've mentioned, most of those you will see on these boards will complain because it's their mission to do so because they have a grudge of axe to grind.
I am accusing Ford of doing what Bill Gates and Microsoft do. Get the public all fired up about a new widget then keep putting off rolling it out. If you remember the first Prius. It came on the scene with little or no fanfare. then as they sold and fixed the problems they got more publicity which was mostly good. If the Escape flops Ford will look stupid and lose a lot of market share.
And now my e-mail should be visible. It's hard to keep the 15 month old grandson entertained and concentrate. Not to mention my "Forgetter works way better than the "Remember-er"!
Thanks for the complements about the Hams you know, however since the FCC relaxed licensing even Amateur community not what it was. Too much proprietary Everything in our throw away society is geared at the bottom-line, the poor engineer is not even allowed to think about reparability!
Yes I to would love to see Ford introduce a decent vehicle, also, the country deserves better.
I have to add, in honor of the Ole Marine who raised me, (in his words "luckily survived Iwo Jima") it's my duty to fight for what the WW II generation gave we Americans.
E-mail me I'll give you the title of the book about the BLM and Corp, if you,re interested?
Paul
As the same occured with the Focus and Escape...they were introduced with some recalls, and got better as time went on. The Focus itself is now one of the most reliable entries in it's segment as Ford continued to fine-tune the vehicle.
If the Escape Hybrid doesn't work for Ford, the vehicle still is the best seller in it's segment, with 17% higher sales than last year's period. 20K Hybrids won't hurt it. The Escape (as with all techonology) will certainly have it's risks. If it works great for some people, (whatever their needs are) they will be rewarded, if not they'll use it as an excuse never to buy domestic ever again.
I took the change when buying my previous Lincoln LS in 2000. And was definately rewarded taking that chance, whereas I bought another recently. Again, a new vehicle with new techonology, platform, drivetrains, etc. will definately have it's risk. IN relation to the Escape, it's just a different powertrain overall, and some numerous upgrades from last year's version.
It's like 31 flavors. ;-)
I think this thread would be a lot more interesting if people would lighten up a bit, on both sides of the issue.
-juice
http://www.nypost.com/seven/06242004/business/23636.htm
gagrice "Lexus RX 400h" Jun 25, 2004 2:49pm
Also, as mentioned above post #208 in the same message forum.
YMMV,
MidCow