Ford Escape Hybrid

djasonw

This is only the beginning. Toyota and Honda will continue to be the major players in the hybrid market. Diesels will have their place, but hybrids will ALWAYS overshadow them. It's DIESEL DOOMSDAY. Hybrids RULE!!! EAT MY VOLTAGE!!

gagrice

It may be doomsday for Diesel. I would never under estimate the ignorance of our bureaucracy. The hybrid is a long way from ruling anything. Only a few people that think they can save a penny by spending a dime. Smart money is not wasted on fads.

Sylvia

before we veer too far off the road here.

wco81

One of the anchors drove the Escape Hybrid. Said didn't have enough power for passing. And when he tried to pass, it sounded like a blender?

gagrice

ooooh! I love margaritas. Bring on the blender...I'll bring the Hornitos Tequila..

gagrice

It is very difficult to stay on the same subject for two years. And the Escape is now slated for September at the earliest. Plus only 2 per dealer per month. Hope no one was holding their breath. At least someone got to drive one even if it was a disappointment.

ANT14

The majority of people who dislike Hybrids, aren't even in the market for it. Just like I test drive FWD cars, but would never buy one...yet, do the favor for friends since most have no idea what to look for.

If one passes up a Hybrid, another consumer gets the chance to own one. At 20K a year, (Provided Sanyo can make enough battery packs since they are the reason that Ford can only provide 20K of them), it'll be enough.

djasonw

The Ford Escape will not ever garner the respect the Prius has received. Why? Because it's a FORD!!!!!!!!!!! They should stick to what they do best. Building conventional cars/trucks that need frequent service. Toyota and Honda will be the major players in the hybrid market.

gagrice

Your such a funny guy. Not that I am a big Ford fan. Honda & Toyota are not any more reliable than any of the other auto makers. It is all media hype. I have the repair records to prove it on Toyota, Honda & Ford. Just because a dealer treats you good does not mean they have reliable cars and trucks. If any auto maker has a reputation for reliablilty it is GM. That said I think you are right about the Ford Escape from the minimal tests that have been run. I also think that Toyota would be better off sticking with the tiny little Prius for their hybrid. Big vehicles and hybrid do not equate.

ANT14

Sorry but having had numerous Ford's for years, I've never had any issue with mine. Nor many people I know either which is why I have continued to stick with them.

Granted, Toyota and Honda have their pros and cons as well...Reliable, but when they break, your gonna pay for it alright...Dependable, but hope it doesn't get stolen. Styling and driving wise, just plain boring and appliance like, but that's just taste.

So it's a case whereas, if Ford doesn't develop a Hybrid, then people will whine "Look, they aren't doing enough for the environment"... Then when they do build it, it's more whining because it's just "not enough" and it'll never be because some people's perception are still stuck in old detroit of the 90's.

usbseawolf2000

"Big vehicles and hybrid do not equate."

Why? What is your reasoning?

Dennis

gagrice

Go back to post # 512. Here is one of the few real life people that have driven or seen a Hybrid Escape. He says what I think will be the problem with larger hybrids. Power to weight ratio. That does not mean they cannot get enough power. Obviously they pull huge trains with electric motors. I think the economy factor, which is the main reason most people will buy them, is not there. From this forum I am lead to believe that many of the new gas engines are very clean burning. Why hybridize an economy car if it is not economical to do it?

ANT14

Which was the issue with the Honda Insight. It wasn't the size that appealed to people, plus the price didn't justify it's size. Therefore, 2nd time around Honda improved things with the Civic, since it's a size that works for a bit more people. But at it's current price point, you could also buy a mid-size sedan. Prius did one step better, placing it in a package that would appeal to more people. Now next step up, SUV's.

Ford was testing a hybrid version of an Explorer, but because of the power/weight issue, the fuel savings were really less than 10%, so they abandoned that idea...while the 10% fuel savings of such a system has been gained by drive-by-wire technology, better calibration of the transmission shift-points, and a few other tweaks... And in the next tweaking, will receive a 6 speed automatic. Which in the end it would have made a Hybrid Explorer an unfeasable project anyways.

Displacement on Demand would have been another alternative to improve fuel economy by 7-9% as an example. So weight does become an issue at a certain level.

usbseawolf2000

"One of the anchors drove the Escape Hybrid. Said didn't have enough power for passing. And when he tried to pass, it sounded like a blender?"

Sounds like a typical CVT ignorance. First let me state that i've never driven FEH but driven Prius. Everything I say will be based on those experiences. Human senses are easily fooled. One lbs of golf ball will seem heavier than one lbs rubber balloon because golf ball put more pressure on our hand in more concentrated area.

To apply the same to the car, we tend to look for the "jerk" of shifting gear. The harder the jerk, the more we think the car is going to pull. CVT, either mechanical or electronic controlled, has the same smooth acceleration(increase in thrust). When the ear(noise of engine) do not align with the pressure on one's back(acceleration), the experience is considered "not enough power"? The electric motor in a hybrid vehicle has power control unit to smooth out the acceleration, so you don't feel the jerk like golf carts, which has only On or Off.

What I am trying to say is that you can't just rely on the "impression" of one's driving experience. You'll also need actual measurable numbers and keep in mind that your senses could be wrong when you test drive. Ford claims that FEH has performance equivalent of the V6 model(still have to see the numbers). This car does not lack power-to-weight ratio. The design of planetary full hybrids(Prius,FEV,RX400h,etc.) have faster passing response time than traditional automatic tranny cars because "increase in thrust"(downshift) for planetary hybrids comes in at the speed of electricity, without any shift lags.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"Ford was testing a hybrid version of an Explorer, but because of the power/weight issue, the fuel savings were really less than 10%, so they abandoned that idea"

Were they doing mild hybrid or full hybrid? I have no knowledge about that car. Lexus RX400h AWD(4WD-i) is expected to get more than combined 34MPG, compare to RX330 AWD combined 21MPG. That's 38% higher fuel economy with V8 power and performance.

"So weight does become an issue at a certain level."

I believe FEH is about 230 lbs heavier than EH V6. That's 6% extra weight and see how much lower the emission and fuel it can save.

Dennis

gagrice

Displacement on Demand would have been another alternative to improve fuel economy by 7-9% as an example. So weight does become an issue at a certain level.

Is that the system used in the new Chrysler Hemi?

ateixeira

I'm surprised, the Lexus dealer I last visited had a pretty long wait list for the RX400H. $500 cash deposits on all of them. Those folks will be disappointed.

-juice

ANT14

"Were they doing mild hybrid or full hybrid? "

This was a mild Hybrid. It was something they were testing and only insider's knew about it. The abandoned the idea when they saw the few savings wasn't enough.

Ford has a new diesel team of experts studying the feasability of diesel models, so expect to see more diesels if future legislation allows for low sulfur in fuel.

"Is that the system used in the new Chrysler Hemi? "

Yes. When cruising, it de-activates some of the cylinder's for fuel efficiency.

nvbanker

You said a mouthful there, pal. (remembering my Betamax). At least, I never owned an Oldsmobile Diesel.

teeitup

I ordered my Escape Hybrid today. Sort of. The dealer said that they would get 3 Hybrids around the end of August and I am second in line. They do not know what colors they will be or options they will have. Apparently they do not have a choice. The specific one that I ordered would not be delivered until the end of the year. So, I can either get one of the three in August, or if I don't like any of those, wait until December to get the one that I ordered.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

carguydc

Teeitup - I'd go back to the dealer and ask them to be more specific. The fact is that the order guide is available to them (with all options, etc) listed, and the price list is also available. They should be able to place a specific retail order just for you, to your specifications.

nvbanker

Of course, Argentina could have 5 new Presidents before you'll get it...

carguydc

Teeitup - I'd go back to the dealer and ask them to be more specific. The fact is that the order guide is available to them (with all options, etc) listed, and the price list is also available. They should be able to place a specific retail order just for you, to your specifications.

koker

I ordered mine a few weeks ago. Similar deal, only they allowed me to choose what I wanted. They basically said that although they expected the first one in to be the one with the options I chose, there is a chance that it would be another one, spec'd by the factory. I am first in line at that dealership, they said there were expecting 2 in end of august or first week of september. If it turns out that the first one in is not the ordered one, I get first dibs. Another dealer I had dealt with said he was expecting 10 (largest dealer in the area) but wasn't taking deposits or telling people where they were on his list. Don't really know what to think about what he was saying.

teeitup

carguydc - They did take my order to my specifications, options etc. but that order would not be filled until the end of the year. But, I could choose from one of the three that they get in August, if I wanted one of those, and then cancel the orginal order.

meyervilla

A recent review indicated that, unlike the Prius Hybrid in which the A/C compressor is driven by an electric motor, the Escape Hybrid has an engine-driven A/C compressor. This means that the A/C compressor stops running when the engine shuts down and the Escape is in electric mode. Is this true? If so the Escape is not for use in Phoenix.

djasonw

I drove the classic prius last summer just to get an idea if I would like it (I bought the '04). The classic had the same system and whenever you had the AC on, the engine would run most of the time and even at lights. It was even difficult to drive solely in electric when the AC was on. I suppose a future version of the Escape may have electric AC. I know how Phoenix can be in the summer! I don't blame you!

nvbanker

Another reason why I'm skeptical that Hybrid technology is here to stay as a long term solution for economy...

john1701a

> Another reason why I'm skeptical that Hybrid technology is here to stay as a long term solution for economy...

Where is "here" ?

Production year #8 for THS/HSD begins in a few weeks. Toyota's commitment to hybrid technology is rather obvious... especially since the very same components can also be used in a fuel-cell vehicle.

JOHN

nvbanker

I'm just not convineed that 2 engines in 1 is an efficient design.

djasonw

It's not too engines. Its an engine and an electric motor. Perhaps you should study the concept before you put it down. The classic Prius has proven it is a hearty system to be reckoned with. I couldn't be more happier with my 04 Prius. I can't comment on the yet to be released Escape. Hopefully it will continue the success of the hybrid technology.

gagrice

Production year #8 for THS/HSD begins in a few weeks

From all I have gathered on this and other sites. The 2004+ Prius II is the hybrid to beat. The earlier models had problems that were addressed and corrected. To my way of looking at things this is only the second year for a tried and proven design. Two big questions are yet to be answered. Can Toyota build the Prius and sell it at a competitive price over the long haul and are they planning to try and meet the current demand. It may be the best thing since peanut butter. If you buy something else because they are not available that is a lost customer for this emerging technology.

rfruth

The hybrids didn't have any problems unique to them, Ford should hope to do as well with the Escape.

nvbanker

"Perhaps you should study the concept before you put it down."

Man, I just love the openmindedness and tolerance of Toyotaphiles. Thanks for being so helpful. I'm not entitled to express an opinion here? Scuse me then. It is two motors in one then, and I remain unconvinced. Perhaps you should allow for someone else's viewpoint before putting THEM down?

I'm monitoring this thread for information on the Escape Hybrid in an effort to learn more about it. I am already quite familiar with the Prius, and don't like it much. But if Ford can make an Escape in that form that delivers good performance, I may be interested. The fuel efficiency is nice, but it's not my first priority - a functional good sized car is #1 for me.

Perhaps someone else has something helpful to contribute that would assist me materially in exploring this new technology besides implying I'm a moron for being skeptical?

john1701a

> I'm just not convineed that 2 engines in 1 is an efficient design.

Informed & Constructive discussions are only possible by using the proper terminology.

We have no clue what you meant by the statement above. Did you actually intend to say "1 engine and 1 motor" or were you making reference to 2 power sources?

The confusion comes due to the fact that there are 2 motors in front-wheel drive "FULL" hybrids, like Escape & Prius. Four-wheel drive "FULL" hybrids, like Highlander (and perhaps Escape later), will have 3 motors.

JOHN

gagrice

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,64132,00.html

This is an interesting take on the subject. To me the Escape is just a top heavy small station wagon. I would not even think twice before I made the decision to buy a Prius instead of the Hybrid Ford Escape. It is only slightly larger and half the fuel economy. Plus it will have several years of fine tuning to get where the Toyota Prius is at today. Ford and GM would be ahead to bite the bullet and buy rights to the Toyota hybrid and put on their own body. Why re-invent the wheel. I'm not sure what Ford bought from Toyota, but I doubt what they end up with will be comparable.

Good article on the Escape stolen from the battery debate...

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/070402.html

djasonw

Not too crazy about the Navigator but that's another chapter! LMAO!!

ANT14

What does a Navigator have to do with the Escape topic?

usbseawolf2000

"I'm just not convineed that 2 engines in 1 is an efficient design."

What are some of the things that make you unconvinced? Care to explain?

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"To my way of looking at things this is only the second year for a tried and proven design. "

5th generation Corvette just had recalls recently. Where do you draw the line between trying and proven?

Dennis

usbseawolf2000

"The fuel efficiency is nice, but it's not my first priority - a functional good sized car is #1 for me."

Are you also looking at Highlander Hybrid? It is a mid-size SVU with V8 like performance. It will be a good alternative if you can shell out a bit more. FEH will be cleaner than HLH, AT-PZEV vs. SULEV.

Dennis

gagrice

5th generation Corvette just had recalls recently. Where do you draw the line between trying and proven?

It seems every generation has it's own unique problems. What I was saying is this is the first year of what seems to be the second generation Prius. I have not heard too much negative about the 2004+ Prius, mostly positive accolades. I doubt that Ford will come out of R&D without some issues in the Escape. It is the nature of advancement in technology.

ateixeira

While I personally prefer the Prius, the Escape has a lot more cargo room and would actually meet my family's needs better than a Prius would.

With the seats in place the Prius has only so-so cargo room, and we don't pack light.

-juice

djasonw

Thanks Juice... nice to see you here. I enjoyed reading your posts in the WRX board (I sold mine). The Escape should be a nice ride and provide decent cargo capacity for a small family. I'm lucky... no kids!!

gagrice

I have not looked at the Prius hatchback trunk space. My friends on this forum assure me it has lots of room. I was stuck with an Escape in Hawaii last winter. Our two suitcases would not fit behind the back seat. Had to toss them on the back seat. Fortunately Budget had an Explorer for us the next morning. You should re-visit the Prius before you jump into an unproven vehicle.

john1701a

It's like some people haven't ever heard of a luggage rack, for roof and/or rear carrying.

Seriously, how often do you really need an enormous amount of storage space inside the vehicle?

JOHN

ateixeira

has lots of room

Rear passenger space is good, with good legroom and good comfort for 2, a bit of a squeeze for 3.

But the shape of the hatch limits cargo height and the capacity just isn't there.

Maybe if you're coming from a sedan, but wagons and SUVs have boxier cargo holds that can carry much more than the Prius can.

John: good suggestions but where is the factory roof rack and the cross bars? Plus, I have a roof top carrier and that lets things get wet (slightly).

To answer your question, yes, I routinely carry a full cargo hold and could not even imagine down sizing from my Forester. Our strudy stroller alone filled up most of the Prius' cargo area.

A Highlander I can imagine, but those will cost a bunch more.

I'm sure EPA volume for the Escape's cargo area is a lot more than the Prius offers. Break out a measuring tape if you want.

-juice

john1701a

A minivan is almost always the best choice for internal storage. And of course, the new breed of inexpensive boxy vehicle (like Scion & Element) makes the size argument for SUV even weaker.

Fortunately, all of them will eventually end up offering a hybrid option anyway.

As for Prius, it offers greater storage height than what first appears. The floor is false. It lifts out to reveal another 6.5 inches of depth.

JOHN

nvbanker

Now, that's information I can use, thank you! I was unaware that the Highlander was coming out in a Hybrid, and yes, I would consider it. The Highlander is nice looking, the Prius is just too wierd looking for me to drive.

ateixeira

John: I did the Prius drive at the event hosted just outside of Fresh Fields stores. So it was a quick drive around the block.

I did not notice that false floor, maybe I'll go take a 2nd look. I liked the way it drove.

Vans are great and definintely will be considered, but right now not one of them gets 20mpg in the EPA city cycle.

Element is fun, I like it, but it only seats 4 and a 675 lb payload is, pardon my French, pathetic.

Scion xB is nice, seems to have it all, but I wonder if that tiny 1.5l engine could pull it and a full load. I'd be open minded enough to try one, though.

I'm not pro-SUV, I'm pro-wagon. The Prius is a hatchback, though, not quite a wagon. Same with the Matrix, just a tad too small.

The Focus wagon is the right size, IMO, but I'm not crazy about those and the design is getting dated. The 2.3l PZEV is interesting, though.

-juice