Ford Escape Hybrid

stevedebi

Agree, this would be a better representation. However, the article is representative of what a "jack-rabbiter" (I think I just invented a word) would get for MPG.

But then why would a "jack-rabbiter" buy a Hybrid anyway?

ateixeira

Perhaps for the torque at idle that electric motor gives you, but naaaah.

-juice

ateixeira

What timing, I found this article today:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7324

He's not exactly known for his accuracy.

-juice

stevedebi

I think it was the board member who made the remarks to the press who was irresponsible. The press has to report everything it learns, or we won't have a free press.

ateixeira

Not sure how high he ranks for fact-checking, is all.

-juice

stevedebi

But the article I posted was a test drive by the author himself. However, I can't vouch for his math skills in computing MPG.

john1701a

> what a "jack-rabbiter" would get for MPG

Interesting that you should mention that... because I am!

When the light turns green, I drop the pedal and rapidly put several car-lengths between me and the next vehicle.

"BRISK" acceleration (a step below aggressive) is a benefit the HSD design offers. The responsiveness of the 50kW motor and the fact that an engine is most efficient when it is used at about 70% potential is a key to keeping those MPG numbers up there.

Prius is not slow, as many commonly believe. So judgment about the Escape hybrid should be reserved until a few of us get the opportunity to get behind the wheel ourselves.

JOHN

stevedebi

I suppose I meant "aggressive", or that they used it after the ICE kicks in.

ateixeira

Prius is definitely not slow, especially off the line is offers abundant torque.

I'm sure the Escape hybrid will offer similarly brisk off the line tip-in.

-juice

ateixeira

Careful, but some of the more radical "environmental groups" torched a bunch of Excursions and essentially created more pollution than those trucks would have caused in a lifetime of use.

Insurance covered them anyway, so Ford actually got a nice boost in sales.

I don't trust the ones that use radical tactics like that. Some also slap bumper stickers on SUVs, which is vandalism IMHO.

-juice

baggs32

http://msnvideo.msn.com/video/default.aspx?m=nn_thompson_hybrid_0- 40805&csid=Msnbc&setcp=B&autostart=0&undock=true

You can also see the video by clicking on the link below and "launch" the "free video" of the hybrid story from the box under the bottom left side of the top headline.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/

stevedebi

36/31 FWD, 33/29 AWD (City/Highway)

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=30&article- _id=8443

Based on vehicle size and weight, those test drives of AWD at 23MPG on the highway may not be too far off, considering the fact that EPA is often too high, particularly for SUVs.

f111d

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=9582 Unfortunately you will need to register, only because this is normally a subscription site. Every so many articles can be read. Due to Edmunds catching flack over cut/pastes you have to read off site. Now I remember why I posted the article intact. Being a technologist of hard knocks and not an engineer, English composition has always been a big stumble. Engineers, who know, have to take English and accounting courses.

   This article basically has the full-blown tree-huggers getting on Ford for to little too late.
Like I said before this technology has a way to go (maturity) before it can jump in and be affordable in several ways, the consumer can afford to save and so the manufacturer can make a sustainable profit. From my many contacts the battery is and will to continue for who knows long the number one stumbling block. The price right now to replace a battery is an unbelievable way overpriced. Collaboration has led me to believe dumbing-up factor or the fear of lawyers the packaging adds 85% to the cost. I recently watched John Stossel on C-span author of "Give me a break". It's good to see common sense might just reign again. It's very important to me since being raised by Ole Marine who luckily survived Iwo Jima. And also I fought for American's freedom rights, however I hate to see snake-oil purveyors running un-checked!
 
   And to finish the Common Rail Diesel (ohhh that ugly/dirty word thanks to GM in the later 70's, GM owes this country an apology) needs to made avaiable asap for all applications, till Hybrid or Fuel Cells become more affordable for the masses. Technology will then be mature. IMHO! I've read and heard much of what the Euro drivers already have, we're missing out big time to reduce out oil dependence.
 Of course those tree-huggers will be back again, if only those folks wen't so narrow-minded? Also check out www.dieselform.org it's amazed me just how clean diesel can be.

Paul

rfruth

I know what you mean by tree-huger and its probably not meant as a complement. Agree that GM owes this country an apology but anyone who bought a gas engine made to run on diesel got what they had coming, did they really think it would wash ? No wonder there is so much skepticism when it comes to HEVs we've been burned so many times.

Kirstie_H

Kerry & Edwards on the waiting list to buy the Escape hybrid:
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/special_packages/electi- on2004/9340653.htm

If they drive the vehicles, will that boost the Escape's popularity & sales?

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

gagrice

I wonder if they will get bumped to the head of the list. My dealer has over 100 deposits. She was told that they were only getting one Escape Hybrid per month per dealer. That means they would get one sometime in 2012.

ateixeira

Pretty good EPA figures. Even if not so accurate, they can be used to compare otherwise similar vehicles (at least other hybrids).

If Kerry does get one it can't hurt.

-juice

carguy1234

It could also hurt the popularity of these hybrids, if more and more multi-millionaires with multiple mega million dollar mansions start driving hybrids "for the environment". Hybrids are quickly being referred to as "hypocrite mobiles" in some circles.

I suppose a hybrid offsets the fuel waste from private jets use and maintaining 10,000++ square foot mansions, but sheeh! The hypocrisy!

rfruth

So carguy would you say millionaires should be forced to walk (should we punish achievement) Or is a hybrid better than a F-150 even if some one has a private jet ?

ateixeira

Well, noone really needs 25 bedrooms in one of their 6 mansions, and heating or cooling that sort of excess can be very wasteful.

Not that Kerry lives that way, any how.

-juice

rfruth

I don't have two houses of any size but many do, makes the 30 G for a Escape hybrid seem trivial !

baggs32

Not that Kerry lives that way, any how.

I live about 3 miles from the Heinz Estate which is where Theresa Heinz Kerry calls "home". Obviously John spends a lot of time there too.

The estate consists of at least 5 buildings situated on 87.19 acres. The main house is 5534 square feet and was built in 1918. I'm guessing a house that old is NOT cheap to heat and/or cool.

I have a relative (by marriage) who works on the grounds crew of that estate. So I have it on good authority that they don't do the work by hand if you know what I mean.

I think a hybrid tractor, actually a fleet of them I guess, is what John should be considering. A hybrid SUV is probably the last thing he needs in order to pollute less.

Anyone know what his house in Mass. is like?

ateixeira

I stand corrected. I had no idea.

I guess homes are more private but your vehicle is seen more in public, so it's all about the image being portrayed.

Same old, same old...

-juice

rcf8000

In my experience, SUVs get less than EPA highway mileage, whereas cars get as good or better. It probably has something to do with the greater drag of the SUV.

Sylvia

to the Ford Escape Hybrid. Yes, it's fun to go off-topic here and there but now it's time to come back to the theme at hand.

gagrice

As I am sure you know it would only be a token purchase to get political points. I doubt he would trade one of the 5 Suburbans in on the hybrid. Elitist will always be gluttons of all our resources. It is the American way.

gagrice

We have to keep this thread going for several more months till Ford finally dribbles a few of their hybrids onto the market place.

baggs32

Would you rather they rushed them out then? We know what happens when manufacturers do that.

baggs32

Don't blame us Sylvia. Kirstie started it back in post 634. We just went with the flow!

Kirstie_H

Ha! I was just trying to generate discussion about the popularity of the upcoming hybrid. With several manufacturers promising SUV hybrids over the coming year, the publicity could give an edge to Ford. The wait-list demand already seems high, though. Wonder if they'll be able to increase production?

ateixeira

I'm sure they have limits on the supply of things like the batteries.

And I agree that it would be a horrible idea to rush this to production. Lexus delayed the RX400H too, remember.

-juice

gagrice

Ford has stated flat out they will build 20,000 units in the first run. I don't know if they are going to sell at or below their cost as Toyota did with the Prius. My Ford manager friend is very upset as Ford originally led her to believe they were building whatever the market wanted. Now she has a big list of people that are going to be alienated by Ford's limit on the hybrid.

turboshadow

there will be huge legions of disappointed people. I don't think that there is the huge groundswell to buy hybrids that the media would have you believe.

With the amount of money the manufacturers are losing per unit, its wise on their part to 'dribble out units.' Keeps a waiting list going, and its cheap advertising.

Turboshadow

rcf8000

Given the small numbers of Escape Hybrids that are planned to be produced, the effect of this product on Ford's bottom line will be miniscule. Therefore, I can only conclude that the product is a publicity stunt, not a business proposition. Kinda like the Ford GT, but with an environmental spin.

john1701a

Selling a limited quantity a projected-market-value rather trying to squeeze profit from a brand new product immediately is a wise way to proceed. Don't slam Ford for taking a LONG-TERM approach. Not everyone bets the farm solely on quarterly profits.

JOHN

ateixeira

Limiting supply worked for Honda and the Odyssey and Pilot. They had wait lists for years.

Now they have a 2nd plant up and running and can meet demand easily, but prices have dropped significantly.

So Ford may be smarter than we think.

-juice

baggs32

I'm sure they have limits on the supply of things like the batteries.

Ford has stated flat out they will build 20,000 units in the first run.

All true. Sanyo, the battery manufacturer, can only produce 20,000 battery packs right now. However, it has also been printed that Ford is trying to get their hands on some more.

Whether that means they are pushing Sanyo to bump production or going elsewhere remains to be seen. I don't imagine they'll be able to find/build more than 5,000-10,000 more though. They are already pushing the limits at the KC plant with 4 versions of the same vehicle right now (Avon is officially closed) from what I understand.

stevedebi

"Limiting supply worked for Honda and the Odyssey and Pilot. They had wait lists for years.

Now they have a 2nd plant up and running and can meet demand easily, but prices have dropped significantly."

What happened is that the competitors came out with updated versions of their vehicles, and thus these two are not the latest and greatest. The fact that they still sell as well as they do is amazing. The Odyssey design is from the last century! But it was a good design...

ateixeira

Yep, '99 right?

And the outgoing model just won a comparo in Car & Driver. Impressive.

By the time the Escape Hybrid arrives the model will be essentially 5 years old. I think it came out in 2000, right? It's had one interior face-lift, but basically still uses the same platform.

I do think the 2.3l engine is fairly new, however.

-juice

baggs32

Yes. The Escape was released in late 2000 as a 2001 model and has remained largely unchanged over the years. The current MY, which the Hybrid follows, was face-lifted inside and out along with some structural enhancements to make it perform better in crash tests. Oh, and the spare was moved to the rear underside of all iterations (i.e. Escape, Tribute, Mariner, and Escape HEV) of the vehicle to make room for the battery pack. The non hybrids have styrofoam in that cavity to deaden road noise and help out in a crash.

Now here's the tricky part, the Escape platform was said to be all-new back in 2000 but it really is just a very heavily modified Mazda 626 platform and I don't remember how far back that platform goes. Probably back to the early or mid-nineties I would guess.

The 2.3L I4 in the hybrid is very new as it is the only version of that engine, part of the Duratec line but basically developed by Mazda, to employ the Atkinson cycle for improved efficiency. All of the other Miller cycle versions are fairly new as well but have been used before.

I think I typed all of that out correctly, but if not feel free to correct me.

ateixeira

First year for the 626 was MY1993. We owned a 1995.

They had a redesign in 1999, IIRC, but it was definitely not a new platform.

Escape got the same CD4E Ford tranny used in the 4 cylinder automatic 626, but at least it got the 3.0l Duratec engine instead of the smaller Mazda V6.

Any how, I guess the chassis for the Escape dates back to MY 1993!

-juice

ANT14

The Escape platform has kinship to the old Mazda626, but it's so much modified, it's really no relation. Many modificatons need to be implemented to morph it into a totally different vehicle.

Next Escape will morph into a new platform, C1 based (Euro Focus). That's not till 07-08 actually.

ateixeira

They sell a Focus-based SUV in Brazil now, I forget the name.

C1 is a good platform, they'll inherit some trickle-down goodness from the Volvo S40.

-juice

ANT14

The Fiesta based Fusion you mean?

stevedebi

"The non hybrids have styrofoam in that cavity to deaden road noise and help out in a crash."

What??? How does styrofoam help out in a crash?

ANT14

Absorbs energy. Large percentage of vehicles have some sort of styrofoam in their bumper's for force absorption. It's also inexpensive, light, and helps absorb noises.

baggs32

...and when compacted it becomes very strong. Go find a piece of styrofoam and squeeze it as hard as you can to see what I mean.

baggs32

The Escape platform has kinship to the old Mazda626, but it's so much modified, it's really no relation.

Right. That's why I said "heavily modified". The '05 Mustang is in a similar situation where they were going to use the DEW98 (Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type, T-Bird) but ended up modifying it so much that it really is an all new platform.

It's been a long time but IIRC Mazda did all the chassis and driving dynamics work on the Escape/Tribute while Ford took care of the powertrain. So it makes sense that they started with a Mazda platform.

The 2.0L Zetec was the biggest mistake. Thank God they changed that aspect. It was just never enough motor for such heavy vehicles and just barely adequate with an MTX.

ateixeira

I don't think they call it the Fusion in Brazil, but we might be talking about the same vehicle.

-juice

stevedebi

"...and when compacted it becomes very strong. Go find a piece of styrofoam and squeeze it as hard as you can to see what I mean."

Hmmm, anyone for a styrofoam car?