Ford Escape Hybrid

pennipup

Some of us want a small vehicle that will position the driver high enough to be able to have some visibility in city traffic congested with conventional SUVs.

xcel

Hi All:

___I just received my Escape Hybrid Video CD yesterday and had the chance this afternoon to view the many segments. They (Ford) did an excellent job of putting this CD together. If your local Ford dealer has one available, I recommend the time to walk though it. Everyone of us Hybrid and educated non-Hybrid drivers alike already know the tech and accolades but a refresher never hurts … I would love to have the Escape Hybrid’s logo attached to my Insight in particular



___Now if it wasn’t reported to be so damned expensive over and above that of the straight 2.3 L I do however hope it’s a resounding success for Ford.

Escape Hybrid pricing is estimated to start from $26,970* for front wheel drive models and from $28,595* for four wheel drive models.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

carguy1234

I got the same information package with the CD in the mail too. I agree that they did do a nice job on it.

rfruth

I also got the CD and it's slick, now lets hope the vehicle itself is (should be, they've been working on it long enough ...)

baggs32

http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders/0407/19/c01-215227.htm

oldcarguy1

The Ford Escape Hybrid is the first Hybrid SUV to come to market, but uses older "First Generation" technology developed and licensed by Toyota. The upgraded "Second Generation" technology, also owned and developed by Toyota, should appear right after the first of the year on the new Toyota and Lexus SUV Hybrids.

 GM's limited Hybrid is bearly a Hybrid at all, and will only be offered in limited numbers. It is reported to be " clunky" and not all that efficent. GM wants to use it's own technology for Hybrid development, but is years behind Toyota. Hybrid development costs billions, so it is not surprising GM is banking on their developing Hydrogen powered cars that wont infringe on Toyotas Hybrid patents.

baggs32

but uses older "First Generation" technology developed and licensed by Toyota.

Just to clarify, Ford is not using the tech they licensed. They have their own tech which they developed themselves and for all we know is the same as, if not better than, Toyota's second gen tech.

The licensing agreement was made strictly to avoid litigation because the tech Ford developed was too similar to Toyota's. Plain and simple.

Everyone wants to jump all over Ford and cry foul because of the agreement with Toyota. The fact is, they developed the hybrid on their own and should be commended for it. Even if it fails which I highly doubt because they really took their time with this one.

ANT14

And let's not forget, in return Ford is allowing Toyota use some diesel techonology as well.

john1701a

> Everyone wants to jump all over Ford and cry foul because of the agreement with Toyota.

I've read rebuttals to that "claim" several times now, yet I haven't seen a single article making the orginal "claim" in the first place.

I personally think it is a fabricated ploy just to draw attention to Ford's hybrid, a publicity manuever to raise awareness about its existence.

Who is the "everyone" you are referring to?

And clearly the system isn't "better", since you haven't defined what "better" is in the fact place. But I have! HSD (in Prius) provides a faster electric-only cruising speed and it supports an electric-only A/C system. Both deliver advantages.

JOHN

PF_Flyer

Be sure to check out our Town Hall chat lineup for Tuesdays... First up, talk the latest in new automotive technology during the Hybrid Vehicles Chat from 12-1pmPT/3-4pm ET
NOTE: This is a NEW time slot for this week!

Hybrid Vehicles Chat Room

Immediately following at 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET, we keep the chat party going with the Mazda Mania chat.

Mazda Mania Chat Room

The Town Hall chats are a great place to take these message board topics LIVE. Hope to see you there this week!

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baggs32

And clearly the system isn't "better", since you haven't defined what "better" is in the fact place.

You can't define it because it's subjective. It all depends on what's "better" for you. If faster cruising speed and an elec.-only A/C system is "better" for you then so be it. Others, for example, might want something else, like "better" reliability/durability. The Ford may just offer that.

I've read rebuttals to that "claim" several times now, yet I haven't seen a single article making the orginal "claim" in the first place.

Here's one.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4485998

Clear your mind of the fact that Ford is not really using any of Toyota's parts or tech before you read it.

It makes sense now and you can see where Toyota was going, but back then it had a different meaning. At least to most of us anyway.

Who is the "everyone" you are referring to?

AND

since you haven't defined what "better" is in the fact place.

What does "fact place" mean?????

C'mon John, you knew what I meant. Lighten up a little huh?

john1701a

> You can't define it because it's subjective.

Since you were the one that claimed "better" in the original post, you just nulled your own comment. Interesting.

> Here's one.

That outdated report doesn't answer actual question. Once again, WHO is making a big deal out of this?

I'm certainly not. I couldn't care less who gets credit (or money), as long as someone builds it.

> you knew what I meant

No, I still don't.

> Lighten up a little huh?

Focusing on the person rather than answering the question is diversionary tactic I am quite familiar with.

JOHN

stevedebi

Sorry I can't find the article, I read it last week. Ford officials came out and emphasized that the agreement with Toyota was legal - not technical - in nature because the Ford hybrid drive (developed independently of Toyota) ended up using similar concepts as the Toyota systems. Therefore Ford decided to pay Toyota to avoid legal problems with Toyota patents.

What this means to Escape Hybrid owners is that you will be the real guinea pigs. This is the first year of a totally new propulsion system, and it is likely to have a lot of teething problems. The Escape hybrid would have been much more reliable (and a better first-year risk) if Ford HAD simply used Toyota technology. This is not a sheet metal roll-out over known mechanical components. This is a known sheet metal design over untried (by consumers) mechanicals. Best of luck to those who pay the $6,000 premium over the base 4 cylinder Escape.

Best of luck to those first year pioneers...

john1701a

You are quite correct.

Some of the confusion comes from republishing of old articles that focus on the original Escape hybrid, not this one. The original used the THS technology Ford acquired from Volvo, who had obtained the rights to use it.

However, THS wasn't designed for the power requirements Ford desired. So they abandoned that opportunity and engineered their own solution instead... which is similar in concept to HSD enough to fear a future patent infringement lawsuit. So Ford proactively addressed that legal issue.

The design is unique to Ford. The concept isn't.

It's like a graphic interface on a computer. Who cares if Xerox, Apple, or Microsoft thought of it. It's how they actually use it that counts.

JOHN

baggs32

Since you were the one that claimed "better" in the original post, you just nulled your own comment. Interesting.

I never claimed it was better. Read it again.

Once again, WHO is making a big deal out of this?

Start your reading back at post #1 of this thread. You'll find a wealth of information that will answer your question. Reading other pure Escape forums wouldn't hurt either. I bet there are even some Toyota forums that will help you out too.

Generalizations John. Not everything is fact. Especially not in an internet forum.

Good grief!

Focusing on the person rather than answering the question is diversionary tactic I am quite familiar with.

I won't argue about that one being fact. :P

john1701a

Circular responses are too.

Are you done now?

JOHN

rfruth

Wow saying Escape hybrid owners will be guinea pigs is kinda like saying I won't try anything that hasn't already been done and how does that saying go if you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always got ? I wish I had paid the premium for a '63 Mustang ...

i006129

And I wish I had hit the lottery. I think the point is that you need to walk into new technology like this with your eyes wide open. For every success like the Mustang, there are plenty of failures. Add to that the fact that first year cars (no matter what technology used)need a shake out period. With the Hybrid technology, all we have to hold on to right now are the early experiences from Honda and Toyota and promises from Ford. Given that the news is largely positive, a buy decision is easier. However, I wouldn't be surprised if a few minor/major issues popped up over time.

rfruth

To win the lottery and be able to ride like Lance Armstrong (I'll skip the cancer part though) Ford has had their share of failures (the Exploder with gravestone tires comes to mind) New technology just for the sake of the newness makes no sense but the hybrid Escape's time has come (its been here) after all we know who has who over a barrel.

stevedebi

That car was still an internal combustion engine, and the primary difference was the chassis - light, and the body - stylish. In fact what you had with that car was new sheet metal over proven technology - the opposite of the new Escape hybrid using proven sheet metal over new technology.

It didn't deviate from the current 1963 norm of the primary purpose to a car - to drive. That was due to the mechanical underpinnings of the Mustang. The new Escape has new and untried mechanical elements. I'm not saying it isn't going to work, just that there will probably be some trying times. Of course, this could turn out to be the one time that a new design is just right from the start... hmmm, better stop here.

nvbanker

I didn't pay the premium for the first Oldsmobile Diesel!! But then again, that was GM after all. A safe bet to not ever buy the first of.....

stevedebi

Actually, with those 1980's diesels, it was better never to buy ANY of them. They were very unreliable...

nvbanker

and I'm frankly waiting to see how the hybrids do before sticking my toe in the water on those too.

gagrice

When and if any of these larger HSD hybrids make it to the showroom, my bet is they are snapped up for a bit then cool down when people realize they are not much better on fuel and a lot more expensive. My Ford manager friend was really upset with Ford when they told her they changed the release of the Escape to 9/04. She has 100 people with money down and Ford said one per dealer per month. And she has the largest Ford dealership in San Diego. And there not here yet. My bet is they don't make it the first of September either.

john1701a

I simply refuse to accept comments like "when people realize they are not much better on fuel" anymore, without any numbers to actually support that claim.

SHOW ME THE DATA!
SHOW ME THE DATA!
SHOW ME THE DATA!
 

gagrice

There is no solid data. According GM, the Silverado hybrid will get 2-3 mpg better than a standard V8. I have seen auto mag speculation on the Escape from 23-40 mpg. Quite a spread. The only tests I know of are on a 6 mile course. That is hardly real world mileage tests. If the 23 mpg proves to be the norm and as Ford says it is priced, same as an Explorer. No one in their right mind would buy one.

rfruth

You said it gagrice there is no solid data (the FAQs at fordvehicles.com say 35 / 40 MPG city for the Escape hybrid, 16 MPG for the Explorer) where did you get the 23 MPG for the Explorer from ?

john1701a

Kind of makes you wonder about the EPA estimates...

Why doesn't anyone question the accuracy of them for traditional vehicles? Lack of data would be a good reason.

We know for a fact that northern owners get different numbers than southern owners, due to climate. But what are the specifics? How much of a difference?

JOHN

ANT14

EPA's system of measuring fuel efficiency is pretty much outdated, with standards from 15-20 years ago. They have admitted they need to re-evalute the way they measure fuel efficiency in vehicles...let alone, classification of vehicle classes as well.

I've been able to attain 15MPG on a Civic, while doing 19MPG in an Explorer. Or one trip I used a Mazda6i (4 cylinder) and averaged 13-14MPG, while a Mustang V6 did it in 24MPG.

Any which way, it's flawed and what's worse, how each of us drive's the vehicle, will affect it differently. Don't take the EPA estimates too seriously, just use it as an example.

gagrice

I knew I had read it some place. This is the closest I have read of a real world test drive of the Escape Hybrid. Not enough mpg to get me to pay the price of an Explorer.

"The Escape Hybrid did a good job of that, while averaging 23 miles per gallon on an 89-degree day with the air conditioner working".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52698-2004Jun18.ht- - ml

rfruth

The first words of the article are "I drove it hard" and he must have to get 30/23 MPG. But I thought you meant 23 MPG city for a Explorer which would have really made no sense.

Kirstie_H

Let's stick to discussing the Escape Hybrid in this topic - we already have a general Hybrid Gas Mileage discussion if you'd like to debate the merits of owning a hybrid for the gas mileage. Thanks!

Also, we're not here to "prove" anything, or to demand that other prove anything, so let's cut down on the challenges and personal comments.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

stevedebi

I read an article in which they tested the vehicle. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was in the high 20's (highway) to mid 30's (city), but what shocked me was the off road mileage: 13 MPG. I would've thought that electric motor would help at off road speeds.

I have seen some articles report 40 MPG in stop and go driving on city streets.

I'm betting real world mileage at mid-high 30's city, high 20's highway. However, it's a sure bet that many car reviewers (interested in testing the power in "real world conditions") will get 20% or so less.

teeitup

Does anyone know where I can find details about the navigation system in the Escape Hybrid? Is there a manual out for it yet?

teeitup

I found the Owner Guide. It's on motorcraft.com, Technical Resources, Owner Information.

teeitup

My dealer just told me that the delivery of the first Hybrids to the dealers has been delayed about a month until end of September or beginning of October.

Anyone else hear this?

gagrice

Did your dealer indicate how many he was getting? My dealer in San Diego was told only 1 per month per dealer. She was expecting them the 1st of September. I have not talked to her for 5 weeks, things may have changed. Drew Ford has a waiting list with deposits for 100 hybrid Escapes. Another delay will probably cost them some more customers.

stevedebi

This reviewer had a "factory" model, and got 23 MPG on the highway, 30 MPG in town. (To view the following link, I think that registration for the LA Times is required, but it is free)

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-escap- - e28jul28,0,1084574.story?coll=la-class-autos-highway1

hmmm, I get 27 MPG highway on my CR-V, though only about 20-21 in town...

john1701a

That is *NOT* a "real-world" report.

220 miles is a only test-drive, especially when it is done all at once.

"Real-World" means a minimum of several thousand miles over the course of several months. In other words, a small sampling of actual day-to-day driving. And even then, that doesn't take into account seasonal effect or the fact that the vehicle isn't even broken-in yet.

JOHN

baggs32

And even then, that doesn't take into account seasonal effect or the fact that the vehicle isn't even broken-in yet.

John is right (I can't believe I agree with him on something! ). Our '05 Escape Limited has about 1200 miles on it and I'm only getting roughly 21 mpg on the highway with it. Our old '02 was almost identical and we were seeing ~25 mpg on the highway with a few extra PSI in the tires. 23 or 24, which is what it's rated for, without the extra air.

Before break in city mileage is ~14-15 mpg. After break in it's about 19-20 mpg.

Even if they only get 20 mpg in the city that's still 10+ mpg over a V6 Escape. Not bad if you ask me.

Off topic:
Anyone waiting for the Lexus 400h is going to have to wait a little longer:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-08-02-hybrid_x.htm

stevedebi

"Even if they only get 20 mpg in the city that's still 10+ mpg over a V6 Escape. Not bad if you ask me."

You must have meant 30 MPG? I think the current model is rated at around 20 MPG city.

I have no doubt that the Escape engine will get better mileage as it breaks in. However, we are not talking extreme MPG, such as smaller hybrids achieve. The economic problem is that the closer the hybrid MPG gets to the ICE MPG, the less cost effective the purchase, and the Escape hybrid is expensive, around $27K if I recall correctly. And it won't have incentives...

Real-world has nothing to do with length of the drive - it refers (I think, it's hard to get a handle on this) to the rapid accelerations that people seem to think is normal in many US locations.

And we all know what will happen to MPG with jack-rabbit driving. Hopefully the Escape Hybrid will do better with more reasonable driving. Though there is that large SUV frontal area to consider...

baggs32

You must have meant 30 MPG?

Yes. Sorry about that.

The economic problem is that the closer the hybrid MPG gets to the ICE MPG, the less cost effective the purchase

Agreed. You have to really want to save some gas and, more importantly, live with the vehicle for a long time to justify the extra cost. It will take a few years of gas savings to recoup that extra up-front cost.

Finding a well maintained and "loved" used copy in a year or two will be the real deal. I would imagine most of the people who buy one purely for the tech will trade it in for the next great thing, when it comes around, making that scenario more realistic.

stevedebi

"I would imagine most of the people who buy one purely for the tech will trade it in for the next great thing, when it comes around, making that scenario more realistic."

Or when they realize that it only tows 1000 lbs! Goodness, what's the use of all that electric engine low end torque?

baggs32

Or when they realize that it only tows 1000 lbs! Goodness, what's the use of all that electric engine low end torque?

More weight would overheat the motor or battery maybe?

ateixeira

I love how some quote Warren Brown like he's the final authority on all things automotive. His columns are lame at best and are usually riddled with errors. I'd rate him some where below Motor Trend and above Family Circle magazine in terms of technical merit.

Just an observation. Other mags with better technical merit have managed excellent fuel efficiency.

-juice

gagrice

I believe all Auto Mag writers manage to get the mileage out of a vehicle to stress their point of view. We will not get real world mileage figures, until the Escape hybrid is on the market. If it ever makes it. What is the latest estimate, October?

ateixeira

He admits to driving it hard. Most editors do the opposite - they try to eek every mpg they can out of them. There are usually contests to see who "wins".

I guess Warran Brown lost. ;-)

-juice

Sylvia

The way our road tests and long-term updates work are...the vehicle is used by one of the executive staff members and their family everyday. That is their 'company car' so to speak - so it gets real-world driving. The person has to submit a mileage report, etc. on a regular basis.

Just an FYI.

john1701a

That's as it should be, a true representation of day-to-day activity... by actually using it as a regular vehicle.

JOHN

ateixeira

I can't agree more. Kudos to Edmunds.

If they do a track day I don't even think it should be included in the overall average.

-juice