Documentation Fees

british_rover

Of course they don't mention anything about fees or taxes. They simply vary too much region to region. Some states have the doc fee capped at like 50 bucks and in some places dealers get away for charging a ridiculous 699 doc fee. Taxes for cars in some states like NY vary from locale to locale so no way to figure that in.

If the doc fee is not too bad, say under 250 dollars, then I would just pay it and move on but otherwise work that into your negotiation.

raybear

That seems to indicate that the dealer is confident enough in his initial pricing that they're willing to disclose the doc fee, most do not.

Consider the fee part of the total cost of the vehicle when you compare to others.

bobst

I bought a car at Rosenthal Honda in Tysons Corner several years ago and they clearly disclosed their $299 (I think) Doc fee - on a sign about twenty feet up on a wall where no one normally looks. I guess it was there so the sales person could point to it and convince the buyer the fee in non-negotiable.

Incidentally, I like the Rosenthal chain of Honda stores in Northern Virginia. Our family has bought five cars from them and all of the deals have been very smooth.

mow

When they put at the bottom TMV price on Edmunds for example 24,392 on Titan Crew---is that their price including dealer fees or are they saying that price + dealer fees. Wouldn't they or any other site be better off saiying OTD prices which include fees?

bobst

No, they wouldn't. Dealer fees and the taxes that make up an OTD price vary from state to state.

A person who can't use the info on Edmunds plus some local knowledge to calculate an OTD price isn't trying very.

mow

Wow, do I disagree with that. If each state has certain fees then it would be beyond easy for them to first have you put in what state( I believe they already do a region adjustment)before giving you an OTD price. Your answer seems to indicate that their TMV price doesn't cover dealers fees. That being said---according to Edmunds and CD I should have gotten a good deal by paying 24,392 + my dealer fees($699) as a good indicator of price---when in fact my TMV turned out to be 22,700 + $699=23,399! That's quite a BIG difference if people are using these sights as indicators. If I was a car salesman, I believe I might like sites that give these TMV prices----giving me a nice paycheck! :mad:

geo9

In my area of Syracuse NY nissan is offering $2800
rebate and 1% 60 month financing on the titan.....

But still the nagging trim and brake problems even
on the 06s I see posted here, titantalk and elsewhere
scare me!
Good luck and proceed with caution !

The best deals on a titan are the used ones..............

bobst

Mow, when I mentioned the "info on Edmunds" I wasn't referring to the TMV price, which is often much too high. I was referring to the Pries Paid forum where people say what they paid, or claim to have paid, when they bought their car.

When we were ready to buy our Honda last March, I figured I would have to pay about $200 over invoice. However, one poster in Prices Paid said he got his for $500 under invoice. I found that hard to believe, so we went to the local dealer, offered $500 under invoice, and they accepted.

Therefore, the info on Edmunds saved us $700.

mirth

Mow - here's what I do when I go car shopping. After I determine which car I want, I price it here on Edmunds. Say that the Edmunds invoice is $20K, and the TMV is $21K. So I would be looking to pay in the $20,200 to $20,600 range (assuming no rebates - if there are any I would subtract those). Michigan tax is 6%, so that makes my range $21,412 to $21836. Add title and license which I believ in Michigan is $30, and my range is approx $21,450 to $21,850. I'd open with $21,400 OTD and close the deal if they didn't go over $21,850. They could throw in doc fees, ad fees, floorplan, and the kitchen sink and I wouldn't care as long as the bottom line was within my pre-determined range.

Note: the advantages of my system is that it will get you a good price with very little hassle (I wouldn't spend more than 15 mins negotiating). However, it won't get you the "best" price. The "best" price, which is probably $200-300 less than my good price, involves going from dealer to dealer getting quotes, arguing over fees, and pitting one dealer against another. In some places you can do this over email but not everywhere (depends on your local dealers). I hate that method because it's tedious and time-consuming, but that's me.

thebill

Whats the point of getting the TMV and then dropping it a few hundred bucks???

Everyone is so scared that they will pay a couple hundred bucks more than their neighbor.

Just relax and enjoy your new car. Consumers have made the process stressfull.

bobst

"Whats the point of getting the TMV and then dropping it a few hundred bucks???"

Because the buyer thinks they can buy the car for a few hundred bucks less than TMV. That's the point, Bill.

Kirstie_H

TMV represents the average price paid for the same vehicle in a particular geographic area. If a consumer thinks they're a good negotiator, why not make the attempt?? I would, and I'm a lousy negotiator.

exb0

TMV prices are so “good” that the Toyota salesman I dealt with yesterday has the printout from Edmunds site describing what the TMV is, posted on his office wall. If he is advertising TMV, I guess that the best they can do.

british_rover

This is probably the wrong forum to ask this question but since you were just here I will take a shot at it.

If TMV is really the true average price for vehicles paid in a certain area then why does the TMV of a Range Rover Sport for my area $58,286, $2,514 off of the Edmunds MSRP that is actually a $750 less then the real MSRP, when we are the only dealer for almost 50 miles and we have sold almost every Range Rover Sport for sticker. A hand full of people have gotten 500 or so dollars off mainly because of price increases from Land Rover and we stood by or original price quotes.

thebill

I show Edmunds pricing info sheet to all my new and used customers. Just because the invoice and TMV is on there, doesnt mean thats what you can buy it for.

I came to a great realization yesterday:

The people on here telling about prices they're looking for or supposedly paid are only a small percentage of the actual market, even with Hondas. Of the few hundred vehicles that I have sold, I can not recall one when I was directed to an Edmunds quote. I have, however, caught MANY consumers try to use the old "My friend halfway across the country bought it for ____." Just because people say that are being quoted a number, it doesnt mean anything. There are so many factors involved.

"Great! fax me the signed buyers order and I'll give you the same deal!" Amazingly, one is never produced.

Even with Bobst's method, OTD can be affected by many many things: Doc fees (ours is 379 and yes, even I had to pay it), tax laws, lic fees, trade in value difference juggling, etc...

Maybe its just my area. And I am very very glad that I dont sell in some of the markets described in some of these postings.

Furthermore:

WHY DO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO POST ON SOME OF THESE BOARDS AFTER THEY BUY A CAR????

You bought the car.

No, you didnt pay too much.

Who cares what someone else paid AFTER you bought yours.



*sigh*

Sorry.

rant complete.

thebill

"I've never understood why this is charged anyway. It's just another sore point in the process and I always thought it was included in the price of a car as a cost of doing business. After all, when you buy a couch at Macy's, do they charge you a fee to write the ticket up?"

No, they just dont mess with the price of the couch and the price has there expenses built into it!!!!!!

Thats why there is nothing wrong with paying MSRP + TLF.

The dealership bought the car, they cleaned it up, serviced it, demonstrated it capabilities, Arranged the financing for you, arranged the title work and lic. plates, will most likely give you price breaks on future service work, etc....

bobst

"WHY DO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO POST ON SOME OF THESE BOARDS AFTER THEY BUY A CAR????"

Maybe they have questions, maybe they want to brag, or maybe they just enjoy irritating people like you.

socala4

TMV prices are so “good” that the Toyota salesman I dealt with yesterday has the printout from Edmunds site describing what the TMV is, posted on his office wall. If he is advertising TMV, I guess that the best they can do.

Not at all. This is a simply a negotiation tactic that is intended to discourage you from negotiating, and to get you to believe that it isn't possible to negotiate. (After all, if you don't think that it is possible to negotiate, then you won't, and you'll pay more.)

When you put things in writing, people tend to believe it, because the written word carries a sense of legitimacy and authority in the minds of the average reader. If you walked into a shop and lit up a cigarette, the clerk is more likely to succeed in getting you to stop if he points to a sign that says "NO SMOKING" than he would if he simply told you that the rules don't allow it. We've been programmed to believe what we read, and to take authority more seriously if it has been put in writing.

TMV is an average, but it doesn't tell you the spread between the low and the high prices. Let's make up a hypothetical car:

Invoice: $20,000
TMV: $21,000
MSRP: $22,000

If TMV represents an average in this scenario, then I'm going to guess there are probably a few people who paid MSRP (possibly even above that) because they lack negotiation skills, have money to burn, or simply don't know better, while there are also a few at the other end of the scale who may have paid invoice or close to invoice. I don't know that for sure, of course, but in my book, shooting for TMV as a goal is a bit like going out of my way to become a "C" student.

On the topic of doc fees, understand that it is just another source of revenue for the dealer, nothing more. It is called a "fee" in the hope that you believe that something called a "fee" couldn't possibly be negotiable. If they called it "Extra Profit for The Dealership!", then chances are pretty good that you'd object, but give it an official name and suddenly, most people let it slide.

I'd say that you toss it into the negotiation pool along with everything else. There isn't one way to do it, but one way to potentially handle it would be to do it in the form of a "nibble", i.e. negotiate it toward the end of the deal, once you've negotiated the car price and your trade.

socala4

WHY DO PEOPLE CONTINUE TO POST ON SOME OF THESE BOARDS AFTER THEY BUY A CAR????

I enjoy putting deals together, whether in my own business or in buying cars. I really enjoy negotiation as a form of sport, and I genuinely hope that some small fraction of the people reading this will realize that negotiation skills are useful, that gimmicks and shortcuts meant to avoid negotiation are generally unproductive, and that negotiating is actually fun and pleasurable when done properly. I'm sure that most people won't learn this -- many people loathe negotiation and will never embrace it as an artform -- but hopefully, a few will learn from this and get something out of it.

new57

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but in south florida, every single dealer i went to... WILL NOT...waive the dealer fee.

no matter how much i kicked and screamed and walked out...each and every one assured me that one way or another...that fee would be going to dealer.

i used to be able to negotiate my way out of it, but no one will waive it anymore down here.

thebill

ours are not waived either.

However, ours stay the same, no matter how much you pay for the vehicle. We never raise or lower it. Heck, I even had to pay it when I leased my Ridgeline. Which I leased at 500 above invoice mind you! 500 profit even on a employee and I gladly signed to line!

socala4

I can't comment on South Florida, but I gather these are "doc fees" about $200-300.

If the "doc fees" include the cost of your plates and tags (in my home state, "doc fees" are just dealer charges, with DMV costs being entirely seperate), then I could see why at least some portion of it would not be negotiable -- the dealer makes no profit from the cost of the tags, and just passes the money on to the state. But otherwise, it's just markup, and if they treat it as some sort of sacred cow, then you may have to get it indirectly through the purchase price.

new57

in south florida doc fees are the registration fees, and the dealer must refund the difference between the amount you gave them and the acutal cost. i advanced 200, actual was 45, they sent me a check for 155.

the dealer fees...well since i paid 300 under invoice, and the dealer fee was 500, i considered it to be a 200 deal..which is always ok in my book.

these fees are very much a sacred cow down here, i was very suprised how rigid they are on this issue.

basically the salesperson gets screwed, because i just lower my price i want to pay by the amount of the fee. salesperson will see no part of that fee.

dino001

doc fees the registration fees, and the dealer must refund the difference between the amount you gave them and the acutal cost. i advanced 200, actual was 45, they sent me a check for 155.

Not really. What you are probably referring is "tag & registration" charged by the county. Dealer serves here as a broker and charges certain advance amount, obvioulsy higher than it needs to be just in case. County then probably prorates it until your birthday and the rest gets refunded if there is an overpayment (I once got a check from Tallahassee Ford). Amounts depend on if it is a new registration or transfer.

However, on top of it, FL dealers charge a fee, whatever they call "prep", "doc", "dealer's boat contribution", you name it. It runs from $150 (Carmax) to the sky; $699 or $799 is not rare, $300 is quite common. It is a simple profit generator: part of it will cover the clerical costs and say lot planning, etc.

They are introduced and jacked up solely to make the customer think they got a better price than they really did and advertise "below invoice" prices (when you add $799 it magically crosses the invoice at a comfortable margin).

It can be recognized by sales tax - county registration does not add to the tax base, dealer's fee does, so in fact it is treated by the state as an interal part of the sales transaction price.

cutehumor

I got three quotes out of 15 pontiac dealers who responded. I guess the dealers don't want me to shop their quotes around. So I went to the lowest one today. I was with the internet sales manager for two hours today. We test drove a 2006 vibe. wife didn't like the salsa color. so he looked it up on the computer to find one in either abyss, neptune, or moonstone. he found one at another dealer said he could swap it only cost an extra $60 to tow and for gas. Of course he wouldn't tell me where the car was located. He's offering invoice for the car and invoice for the options ( 4 speed auto, preferred package, monotone appearance package) which brings it to $17868. Edmunds TMV= $18197. MSRP for car and options = $19015. However, there's a $500 rebate on the vehicle. this dealership told me there is also another $500 conquest rebate on the vehicle if you own an import which I do (the other dealerships didn't mention this in their quote but this one did) Another $500 for GM march madness if I buy a Vibe built before 10/12/05. He had no luck finding one with my options closeby. So here's the jest of my deal: Invoice price -$500 rebate -$500 conquest rebate + $60 swap vehicle+ $249 doc fee + TTL. He snuck that doc fee at the end. When he said that, I asked about advertising fee he said there was none. Then said "I'm not trying to screw you over, we charge $249 doc/processing fee for every deal" One thing that concerned me was that when he was looking at cars in the area built before 10/12/05 for the march madness $500 rebate and the cars built in 2006 he was confused at the invoices and had to ask another salesman. The invoice of the car increased by almost $200 of the newer built model but the MSRPs stayed the same on both with identical options. good deal? This will be my first brand new car that I ever bought. Thanks

rroyce10

... **I got three quotes out of 15 pontiac dealers who responded.**


And good customers wonder why they don't get internet responses..? ..l.o.l.....


Terry.

raybear

The "spent two hours with the Internet Manager" is what got me...the idea is to save time and money for both parties.

bobst

Not knowing anything about a Vibe, it sounds like your price is reasonable. It looks like you are taking your purchase very seriously and thinking things through very well.

Are you sure you want a Vibe? The absolute best way to save money is to buy a car that you are happy to drive for 7+ years.

Did you look at the Vibe discussion groups to see if other owners like their cars and if they have had many problems?

If you are still concerned about paying too much, then you could look at the Prices Paid forum for some more info.

british_rover

It is really just a Cheaper version of the toyota matrix which is a fine mid sized people mover.

geo9

BR............Actually a Vibe is a BETTER choice !
More equipment std. for a lower OTD price.........

My toyota lovin' cousins FINALLY found that out twice !
They both have a vibe and a prizm each and saved major
bucks at purchase.
They keep them till the wheels fall off so resale is a
moot point...........LOL !!!!!!!

dino001

Vibe is actually more expensive on the sticket. What can make it cheaper are rebates, but there are not as many on Vibes, as use to be.

dino001

And what exactly is wrong with asking so many merchants for their price, Terry? I have a business to offer and I want to know if you have the product I look for and how much it is. I wouldn't probably send 15 inquiries myself, but 5 at least (if close enought to me). The idea is to get availability and price before showing up - save time, avoid switches.

For me would be important, because I always want something "strange" like a manual but not a stripper, which may not be available in the entire state (actually happened to me once).

rroyce10

..... So, you didn't pay your bill and your phone was disconnected and you couldn't call...? ..l.o.l...

I understand what you're saying .. but look thru the dealers eyes for a moment, especially nowadays ...

Do you like spam.? (and I don't mean the kind you eat) .. do you like opening up your mailbox and seeing 250 emails per day and after you've spent 3 hours going thru them - 15 are "maybe" legit and after you've spent another 3 days you find out that 4 are legit, but 3 of those are 300+ miles away .... so you're down to 1, and that "one" will only generate $100 profit, so that's a pass .... that's day #1, now try that for the next 29 days and see what your response might be, it becomes a diminishing return.

And that doesn't count the folks that write like this: "terri, reffered from friend -- need buy price on 06 fx35 awd wth tur + spt pk -- have price of 35 w/trde. must be in ivry color, wht clor only ..."

I'm sorry, but my name is Terry, not "terri" ... like I used to tell my girls, if you don't show respect you won't earn respect .... and if someone won't even take the time to print correctly for a $45,000 vehicle (let alone a $15,000 vehicle) I'm not going to take them seriously.

Someone like yourself might be a legit buyer ... but, you're paying for the guy/girl sitting at his computer pumping out his 37 requests in 5 states for a price on that Audi TT, new Civic or the new Benz just for the grins and giggles .. and he does that 4 times a day at work because he's bored and he's a "car junky" .... in-between times he's reading the Da Vinci Code and wondering if there is something buried in his basement .l.o.l..

I'm a firm believer in making contact ... when I travel, I call ahead, I speak with a hotel manager and I get alot of information and I have a name(s) and probably a little history, then they know who I am ...

When I purchase something, we've spoken many times .. they know who I am and I know who they are, plus I have names, dates and times and usually we end talking about something, it could be anything - but they remember it .. it's contact, it's a bond, it's a good starter kit ..

A good example would be my golf clubs ... the shafts weren't quite right, the driver nicked early so I had to send them back .... up north, spring is just hitting and every golfer is either buying, selling or fixing golf clubs, so the club makers are buried and most delays are going to be "at least" 3/4 weeks .... I spoke with the builder before and during .. "of course" we talked about golf and who was going to take Bay Hill and if Tony Soprano was going to be out of his coma come next Sunday on 3 different occasions ..l.o.l... .. mine were sent out on the 14th and I received them back yesterday ..

Or, I could have sent him this and waited til' May:

"terri, reffered from friend -- need buy price on 06 fx35 awd wth tur + spt pk -- have price of 35 w/trde. must be in ivry color, wht clor only ..."





Terry

dino001

"terri, reffered from friend -- need buy price on 06 fx35 awd wth tur + spt pk -- have price of 35 w/trde. must be in ivry color, wht clor only ..."

LOL. That's a good one.

I used to have more trouble with going ans seeing the salesman - mostly due to my own insecurities than anything else. You see - I still speak an accent - and will do to the end of my life. Even if you and all the saleguys on this Forum swear that it's not the case, I know it puts me immediately into at least some disadvantage, as salesguy will likely assume I stepped off the boat yesterday. It's inevitable. Over time I learned to deal with that, today I know I need about three-five minutes to wipe that off their mind. Before, I probably could not, so Internet was very vital part of my strategy.

rroyce10

.... I understand what you're saying .. and I do respect your honesty ... I grew up in a very ethnic neighborhood and I've had more Polish & Hungarian dishes than you can imagine ...

I'd kill for a "real deal" dish of Chicken Paprikash or some home made kotlet schabowy and dumplings ... and for dessert, how about some Dobos Torta (gawd, I love that stuff) .. I can remember many a day growing up and watching the Granny's making food in the basement kitchens ...

But you can't let language be a barrier, especially nowadays and being Polish ... gheez, I can hardly speak Inglish Anglish English and I was born here ..l.o.l...

.. potrzebuję (chcieć) żeby spotykać (wykonywać; napotykać) *cute* *blonde* dziewczyna w rogu (kąt)...



Terry :P

bobst

Dino, I bet all that matters to a sales person is the accent your money speaks with.

socala4

Dino, I bet all that matters to a sales person is the accent your money speaks with.

Dino has a point, people (not just salespeople) will judge you by a combination of factors, including your accent, manner of speech, etc. That's why behavior is important during negotiation -- the response that you get will be based, in large part, by what you communicate through your body language, expressions and how you act.

What I don't see is why Dino shouldn't turn his perceived disadvantage to an advantage. Since he knows that salespeople presume that he is naive, that is actually to his benefit if he games it properly.

For example, you can really wear out the salesperson by simply pretending that you didn't understand what he said, or because "this isn't the way we do things at home". The process of reexplaining things to you will frustrate him and wear him out, while the rules of the old country (whether true or not) will give you a deferral of authority trick because "you just don't do things that way." The result is that you should be able to obtain further concessions without offering a counteroffer or compromise of your own, all because you "didn't understand".

Playing dumb is one the best tools in your negotiation tool kit, and if the salespeople are going to get sloppy in their approach because they presume too much about you, then so much the better.

dino001

I don't have a "language barrier problem" , neither am I afraid to speak to a dealer anymore. I still occasionally see some some "ethnic" sizing of me, but not much and I'm secure about myself enough to not to worry about it. I see it more of the other side's problem than mine. Being afraid of a "newcomer ripoff" is pretty much thing of the past for me. :shades:

"Playing dumb" is somewhat against my personality, but I know a few people who could use that strategy to their advantage. I occasionally play a "Polish card", when get really annoyed with someone simply no listening in general communication situations. "I know my English is not perfect, but I thought it was clear that....". Otherwise, I rather play "smart" game - just fits my psyche better. Whether it is right card, I leave others to find out, LOL.

socala4

Otherwise, I rather play "smart" game - just fits my psyche better.

There are several problems with "playing smart" in this situation. For one, it will be easier to get the salesperson to what I call his "point of no return" (the point at which he is so invested in your deal that he will accept a rock-bottom price to close it, and won't let you walk) if you get his hopes up, which is going to be expedited if he thinks you're a bit dim.

For another, it raises the competitiveness of your negotiation. If you are a smart guy, then the other side is more inclined to ratchet things up a bit because you present a more obvious challenge.

And it also reduces the amount of information available to you. Because the other guy knows you're intelligent, he starts holding on to his cards more closely, because he knows that you are going to use that information against him. He'd be more sloppy, and even more generous with the information, if he didn't think quite as much for you.

If you have a certain personality that makes it obvious you aren't a complete hayseed, then I wouldn't encourage you to act like one, because then it would be clear that the whole thing is an act, and it won't work. Instead, I would try to stand outside of yourself and perceive you as others might perceive you based upon obvious factors (including your accent, but not just that), and then act accordingly with the goal of getting the other side to lower its guard.

rroyce10

..**>>>For example, you can really wear out the salesperson by simply pretending that you didn't understand what he said, or because "this isn't the way we do things at home". The process of reexplaining things to you will frustrate him and wear him out, while the rules of the old country (whether true or not) will give you a deferral of authority trick because "you just don't do things that way." The result is that you should be able to obtain further concessions**
======================



You didn't print that with a straight face, did you.? .. are you sure that's not some comedy skit off Saturday Night Live ..l.o.l..

Living in area where there is many different languages ... a salesperson will either understand the customer - or not ... they'll either get with somebody that speaks the language or they'll get those famous last words from the SM/GM: .. "go find yourself a buying customer" ... that will be the end of that and no time wasted.



Terry.

rroyce10

.. ** I don't have a "language barrier problem" , neither am I afraid to speak to a dealer anymore..**

Don't ya love the way this guy put's words in your mouth ..l.o.l....



Terry

socala4

Royce, we've already seen examples here on this forum of customers who can use a variety of methods to respond to dealer counters and demands.

Whether you like it or not, car dealers are subject to the same issues and constraints of other sellers, and your efforts to dominate and control the customer are very easy to overcome. Fortunately, dealers are highly predictable in their efforts to use aggressive tactics, but a tactic understood is not a tactic at all.

rroyce10

.. **your efforts to dominate and control the customer are very easy to overcome.**



People are people .. if you treat someone with respect, you get respect back .... and good communication is 90% of it (on both sides.!) ... your "theories" of blinking your left eye on Thursdays and stuttering on Tuesdays went out with the Edsel.



Terry :surprise:

socala4

your "theories" of blinking your left eye on Thursdays and stuttering on Tuesdays went out with the Edsel.

Well, thanks for giving me all of the credit, but actually,I learned this from professional negotiators. People will find references and links to their work on several of my posts.

I'd say that the Corolla provides a better analogy. Like the Corolla, dealer gimmicks have been with us for a long time, you can expect that they'll be with us for a long time to come, and they act predictably just about every single time. (And of course, they're cheap.)

The package might look a bit different from time to time, but at its heart, the concept remains the same. And thankfully, your arguments here provide a good dress rehearsal for what the customer can expect to hear at the dealership.

dino001

C'mon Terry, I didn't put words in his month - it was more in the context of my own strategies before and now. "Before" I was afraid of face to face or over the phone initial contact, as it would put me in real or perceived "newcomer" disadvantage. Today I'm not, even though the accent is still there. Just learned to overcome them (real disadvantage and fear of it).

That was all I wanted to say...

british_rover

Terry was saying that Socal was putting words in your mouth not that you were putting words in his. In my opinion he does have a tendacy to do put words in people's mouths as well.

socala4

Nice opinion, but let's look at what Dino said:

You see - I still speak an accent - and will do to the end of my life. Even if you and all the saleguys on this Forum swear that it's not the case, I know it puts me immediately into at least some disadvantage, as salesguy will likely assume I stepped off the boat yesterday. It's inevitable.

This was my comment regarding that insight:

Dino has a point, people (not just salespeople) will judge you by a combination of factors, including your accent, manner of speech, etc. That's why behavior is important during negotiation -- the response that you get will be based, in large part, by what you communicate through your body language, expressions and how you act.

I essentially agreed with Dino, but added my position that I don't believe that it has to necessarily work to one's disadvantage. But he's absolutely right that it does create a difference, in part because it's human nature to make assumptions about others within less than a minute after we've first met them.

Terry wants to deflect and pretend that sales tactics don't exist and that every customer is regarded in the same way. But anyone who has bought a car knows that this is simply nonsense.

This forum is driven by the fact that many consumers are confused by the car buying process, and that they often feel ripped off. Do you honestly think that a couple of posts on this board from salespeople trying to convince us that they're angels is going to change this justifiable perception?

msiseng

I read all posts spanning years. Is this not about documentation fees, lol? Anyway, I tell the dealers this fee is a deal breaker. Either they live with it or they do not make an offer to sell the vehicle. There is always the next dealer who will not charge.

If we all did this then the dealers would stop charging. It is pure profit and they are not goint to make it on me. The issue here is control. Most car salespeople are told to take control over the purchaser. You must take the control back and not pay the silly documentation fee.

Years ago dealers tried to charge for paint protection and undercoating. Consumers eventually began to say "no" and like someone mentioned earlier, the dealers came-up with a new gimmick: documentation fees.

I live in Maryland where they do not make the fee mandatory. Virginia is a few miles away and all the dealers charge, but somehow change their minds when you tell them "no." The salesperson in many cases is being pressured by a manager to make a deal. You are in control and there really is no pressure. Take everything and bite a little from holdback and they still make money. There are all kinds of hidden fees they profit from, as well.

1racefan

" tell the dealers this fee is a deal breaker. Either they live with it or they do not make an offer to sell the vehicle."

I don't have a problem paying a doc fee, nor do I want to spend part of my negotiation time arguing over it. I always try to find out what the dealer's doc fee amount is before I actually go in to negotiate, and then just look at this as part of the car. In other words, if I have decided I am spending $20,000 on a certain car, and the dealer's doc fee is $299, then I offer $19,700 for the car, plus the doc fee. I guess my point is that I won't walk over a doc fee, but I will walk if the total price is more than I want to pay.

For the last car I bought, I played dumb when I was talking to the salesman over the phone setting up our appointment. I said something to the effect of "I haven't bought a car in a while, what are the current fees associated?". He proceeded to tell me, "Tax is 3%, new tag and title is $69, and our doc fee is $399." This allowed me to work the $399 into my calculations at home before ever going to the dealership. I was able to structure my price around it, and didn't waste any time haggling over the doc fee.

The key is to find out what the dealer's doc fee is before you do your calculations so they don't try to blind side you with it in the finance office.

pgleason

:mad:
Regarding a recent used vehicle purchase with a $369.00 Doc Fee...

An exerpt from the Arizona Attorney General's Office Website regarding Consumer Fraud and Car Purchases:
Be cautious about purchasing aftermarket add-ons or treatments offered by the dealer. Examine the cost and need for such extras and whether you can afford it. Some add-ons are unnecessary or are significantly overpriced, and they may greatly increase the price or cost of your overall financing.
Negotiate on an “out-the-door” basis. Explain that you want to know the dealer’s total price, including everything except the costs for which the dealer will send a check to governmental agencies (generally only sales tax and registration and title fees). If you don’t, you’ll likely agree on a price and learn later that it’s the dealer’s “policy” to add fees for “document processing,” weatherproofing, safety inspections, dealer “prep,” destination charges, etc.
Copied and reprinted from the Arizona Attorney General's Office Website as Public Information currently available to any consumer.

A written response from a local Dealer regarding "Documentation Fee's

"The documentation fee is disclosed on the purchase order that all customers sign both during the negotiations and in the business office. The documentation fee represents a fee for services rendered on behalf of a motor vehicle purchaser for preparing, handling, and processing documents pertaining to the closing of a transaction and the subsequent titling of a motor vehicle. This fee is reported and validated with the state, and is mandatory on every car transaction at Dealership Name Undisclosed Here."

Vehicle Edge's Viewpoint

The "documentary" or "documentation" or "DOC" fee for the above mentioned transaction was in the amount of $369.00. None of the $369.00 was used in the course of titling or registering the vehicle. This is obviously a known problem, and the Attorney General's office clearly states that in the above exerpt. Why isn't anybody doing anything about this common fraud to consumers? To what extent is this fraudulent practice being abused? Consider the following: If this particular dealership sells 250 vehicles per month, and you multiply the $369.00 times the number of vehicles sold, this one dealership has just "scammed" over $92,000.00 from consumers. And that is just one dealership in one month! Yes, this is a serious problem.

Reprinted with Permission from www.vehicleedge.com website