Documentation Fees

jb_turner

As per Edmunds 16,641 is the TMV price so your price is on the high side. Just compare apples to apples (Different Dealers) and get the best price. If you choose to negotiate the dealer has a HUGE advantage as they know the prices involved. Get the best OTD.

craftycheetah

For the EX, the TMV price is $17,669 which does not include tax (or title for that matter). The Out the door price they are quoting me (which is the lowest I've found) is then less than the TMV once I factor in the 3% tax here. Did I figure that correctly?

rebelrich

Is the Documentary fee added at signing standard and can it be negotiated away?

nova

I have never paid doc fee's. The dealer will tell you that it is printed on the paper and they can not remove it. You tell them take it off your negotiated price. If your price was $24,000 plus $200.00 in doc fee's than change it to $23,800 and let them leave the doc fee showing on the work sheet

jb_turner

They made up for the doc fee in the price of the car.

zhangtao9703

Hi,

Does anyone have experience buying Scion tC? The price is NOT negotiable, so I don't know how to get Doc fee removed by lowering selling price. The dealer charges $140 doc fee, which is not very high.
But I just wanna know how much doc fee you paid when you bought the TC.

Thanks a lot.

rolson1

Let's take another tac here. How would you like to pay the actual Doc Fees on your transaction? So if you lost your title and the dealer replaced it, or the name on your title wasn't spelled correctly, or the original dealer didn't put down the actual serial number or you had to pay $17 more for the payoff and pay that pesky sales tax to the city, county and state because you live in colorado....

"We don't charge a flat rate for Doc Fees...we add it all up when all of them are in and then send you a bill....it could be $11 or $493...gee...we just don't know"

ohdaddy926

How would I find out if there is a mandate caps fee in Tennessee?

cadillacmike

What you aree referring to are what's known as TTT, Tax, Tag and Title fees, which are set by the state, but may not be fixed or absolute amounts. Tax varies with the sell price, tag and title often vasy too.

boonchilla2

Are documenation fees, contract fees and detailing fees are these fees that are REQUIRED to be paid for by the consumer? My step mother in law is in the car business and has told me to never pay a doc fee...they are bogus fees that the dealerships come up with that don't ever have to be paid....I"m wondering if that in fact is the truth? Also, she said that a person with a credit score between 700 and 800, you are NOT required to put a down payment down on a car...she said the only thing that does is just put money in the dealerships pockets...it doesn't do anything to lower the cost of that car....now I'm not really understanding any of this....can someone give me some insight on this? We are in the market for a van in the next few months and I'm the one doing the homework on all this and it's all so overwhelming. I just recently came from Carmax and their doc fee is $149. I didn't say anything about refusing to pay it because they are a no haggle dealership...anyone have any knowledge of how Carmax works as far as that goes? I'm just trying to get the best deal without getting ripped. Thanks a lot for any help. :-)

Casi

mirth

Don't worry too much about the fees. Use Edmund's TMV, plus what people say they paid in the forums (take with a grain of salt) and figure out what would be a decent price to pay. Then, however the dealer wants to arrive at your number, you don't care. For example, do you care whether it's:

$20,000 + no doc fee

OR

$19,851 + $149 doc fee

That's the way you have to look at it. Let them pile on whatever fees they want as long as they hit your target number.

basscadet

Do you have any idea how much it costs to pay the business office staff to handle the dozens upon dozens of pages of paperwork each sale includes as well as the expenses in mailing/faxing/archiving that paperwork? Do you really think it only costs $20? Maybe if you live in China and can get away with paying people $1.90 an hour.

$300 is ridiculous. $150 is industry standard.

mirth

At my Nissan dealer, it's $45. I believe that in California they mandate that it only be like $50. $150 is the industry standard? Dream on, my friend.

But again, it doesn't really matter if they want to charge $150 or $1500 for a doc fee, as long as the total price is acceptable. People get too caught up in whether a fee is "legitimate", and lose track of the big picture. Who cares how much the dealer has to pay the office staff? Ultimately, you just have to look at the deal and see if the price is right. You can fairly easily get an idea of what a "good" price is right here on Edmunds by looking at the invoice and TMV prices, and going on the "Prices Paid" forums. If the dealer hits the sweet spot, buy the car. If not, politely decline and go the next dealer.

Of course, if you're someone who really worries over $100-200 in a car deal, then the above strategy will not work for you. You will have to contact every dealer in your area, spend hours determining who is lowballing you and who is not and going back and forth between dealers with quotes. A miserable time, but it will get you the rock-bottom price.

basscadet

Ok, $150 is an industry standard outside of California (a state that does just about everything differently, including appointing poor film actors as their heads of government).

It doesn't matter if the $150 comes in the "deal" or outside of it, they're getting their money.

mirth

...I'm from Detroit and I've never paid close to that for a doc fee. So I guess add Michigan to the "different" states.

And they're "getting their money" if they offer the car for around the same price as their competitors. If all else is equal, and the competitor only charges $50 for their doc fees, they're probably getting no money at all.

Frankly, dealers don't need a doc fee. They could accomplish the same thing by selling the cars for more money. However, the reason they don't is because the doc fee is a psychological trick. You make the customer think they're getting a great price on the car, and then hit them with this "small fee" after they're well into the buying process, which basically changes the deal. After investing all that time, the customer caves and just pays it. They shouldn't, but I suspect most do.

Note that I'm not saying that doing the documentation is not a legitimate expense. It is. So is paying the electrical bill and the floorplan financing. But I think it's pretty obvious that the whole notion of dealer-specific "fees" is just another way to make more revenue without scaring the customers out the door.

2099

Excellent answer concerning doc fees. The last three car purchases I was involved in (self, wife, and niece) at three different dealerships all had a "doc" fee of $50-$150 pre-printed on the sales order which wasn't shown until after we agreed on a price. Two removed it with no argument when I said we didn't negotiate that..the third said it was "required"..I said okay if you can't take it off lower the price of the car or my niece is leaving. Then it came off. I agree it can be a legit item...just tell me before we settle on a price. BTW all three also had a temporary tag and title fee of $15-$20 which I understand totally and agree with. This fee is shown "below" the line where sales tax is charged and tax is NOT charged on this fee. The "doc" fee is above the sales tax line and is taxed which means (in Ohio anyway) that its part of the price of the car.

Tom

mirth

my dealer did the same thing to me - I made an offer and said it included everything but TTL. They agreed, and then later I got the sheet with the pre-printed $45 doc fee that they tried to pass that off as part of TTL. Sigh.

heywood1

Not if you're paying cash. And when I do, I'm quick to point out that there is relatively little paperwork involved. When I'm told that the doc fee covers the cost of notary fees, I offer to bring my secretary to the dealership and let her notarize the paperwork.

mirth

...also cover filing the DMV papers, paying the state tax, etc.

And you think it won't take time and money for the dealer to have your secretary come over and notarize the correct papers? What a pain for them.

Basically, I think $40-50 for a doc fee is reasonable, $200-300 is not. If you don't think you should pay a separate fee, let them jack up the price of the car on you by $50. Would that make you feel any better? ;-)

kyfdx

Would that make you feel any better?

Yes... it would make me feel better.. I really like to pay the price I negotiate, plus TTL..

In other words, if the price I'm offering isn't good enough, then just say so..

regards,
kyfdx

mirth

I'm not talking about the dealer trying to change the deal later on by springing the fee. I meant if you knew about the fee up front.

kyfdx

You are right.. I wouldn't care...

But, in my experience, it never happens that way.. Unless, you think to ask ahead of time..

heywood1

Actually, yes.

Virtually every other purchase I make includes the cost of paperwork and office overhead. Have you ever bought living room furniture, a pool table, or a vacation package where the documentation was billed as a separate line item?

So why don't car dealers have a separate charge for the gas bill and the night watchman too? Where should it end? I'm in the real estate business. Should I charge a $25 document fee for preparing a lease for a tenant?

'Doc fees' should be built into the price of the vehicle. It's the cost of doing business.

purplebug

When I got my purple people eater (which is FANTASTIC). I think I got a pretty good deal. But since I was ordering the car, I was told that this is the price and no negotiating. I gave him a scary look and said fine. Then I let him write out the whole contract, without saying a word. When he asked me to sign, I read the document from top to bottom. Then I said , "I am not paying this, I am not paying that, no negotiating," and then I smiled. He laughed, crossed out this and that, and we had a deal. After all my research, all I cared about was that the final price was within the range I wanted to pay. $22,500 OTD for a 2005, Limited 4A with heated fron seats, ABS, spoiler, and chrome was okay by me. :shades:

hedden

I really wish dealers were more up-front about this cost. It seems sneaky to the customer. The other indication is that it varies so much from dealer-to-dealer and state-to-state. In SC many dealers have no doc fees, but in NC I talked to three dealers whose fees were: $299, $349, and $399. I got that info beforehand and calculated it into the final price, along with state taxes and title fees.

But if you don't know to ask, it can be a shock to some.

mirth

I agree, and here's something I posted about it a month or so ago:

Frankly, dealers don't need a doc fee. They could accomplish the same thing by selling the cars for more money. However, the reason they don't is because the doc fee is a psychological trick. You make the customer think they're getting a great price on the car, and then hit them with this "small fee" after they're well into the buying process, which basically changes the deal. After investing all that time, the customer caves and just pays it. They shouldn't, but I suspect most do.

Note that I'm not saying that doing the documentation is not a legitimate expense. It is. So is paying the electrical bill and the floorplan financing. But I think it's pretty obvious that the whole notion of dealer-specific "fees" is just another way to make more revenue without scaring the customers out the door.

hedden

The dealer I eventually bought from had a sign posted in the finance office that said something to the effect of:

'We charge a $299 documentation fee on every vehicle sold. This fee is not negotiable and is charged to every customer regardless of the final vehicle price.'

Since I negotiated based on an 'out-the-door' price, I was expecting it, but I imagined people sitting down to sign the papers, seeing that fee and complaining only to have the finance guy point over his shoulder to that sign.

audia8q

Has anyone noticed that a alot of industries have adapted the "doc fee?" It seems quoting one price and then adding a list of fees after the fact has become the norm with alot of things..Take a look at your recent
cell phone bill.....
rental cars charges.....
hotels.....
they have all invented a laundry list of fees that don't appear in the purchase price of the service/product.

some of my personal favorites... "concession recovery fee, 911emergency fee, resort fee, mandatory valet parking fee (even if you don't have a car), subscriber line fee, etc.....

geo9

A fuel surcharge fee ?

kyfdx

I see nothing wrong with those...

regards,
kyfdx
(in the shipping business.. )

audia8q

Two weeks ago I rented a car in ft lauderdale...Two day rental. These fees arent new but they are similar if not worse than dealer/doc fees.

Rental Time Charge $73.98
Concession Recovery Fee (10%) $7.49
Customer Facility Charge ($2.75 per day) $5.50
State Surcharge ($2.03 per day) $4.06
Sales Tax (6%) $5.52
Vehicle Licensing Fee ($0.47 per day) $0.94
Total Estimated Mandatory Charges (USD) $97.49
Estimated Grand Total (USD) $97.49

mirth

...is one of the worst for "taxing" car renters, because they know they can get away with it.

bobst

Makes sense to me, because most of the people renting cars in Florida are not residents of that state. That's why they also have a high sales tax to get money from the tourists but no state income tax to hurt the residents.

mirth

ronsteve

There is one fundamental difference tho...

The fees you see on your car rental receipt are per-transaction fees, not set by the rental agency, that are paid to other entities. When you buy a car, TTL is like this too... set by the state and paid to the state.

Doc fees, on the other hand, are set by the dealer and used to cover overhead. They are part of the gross profit, no doubt about that.

jhs70

Huh? I think the FLA residents also pay that same high sales tax, and a lot more often than the touristas!!!!

mirth

...you don't have a mandatory 2-3% taken out of every paycheck.

audia8q

I don't believe all of those fees are state mandated....Of course sales tax is legit but I couldnt find anything in the state of fl website that says they must charge consumers the all the other fees. I don't want to turn this into a rental car debate....but my point is other market segments are getting into adding fees after the fact..

jettaracer

Does anyone know why the document fees in Florida average around $600? Not to mention another $600 dealer fee? Why is this allowed in Florida? I've heard it happens in the southeast. Anybody know? :confuse:

nortsr1

I "strongly" suggest that you find another dealer. There are plenty of Florida dealers that only charge for Tax Tags and a very small document fee. In fact, there are plenty of dealers that even advertise "no hidden fees".
Your bio does not show where you live in Florida and you did not state what dealership wants this crazy fee. Who and where and what type of dealer...Ford, Chevy, BMW???????????

jettaracer

Hi nortsr1!
I'm talking about South Florida. Toyota, Honda, VW all charge an enormous dealer fee, as well as document fee. Check it out yourself. If you go onto toyota's website and locate a south florida dealership, then price a car in the inventory, you will see these fees listed. When you go to buy a car, the fee is already printed on the paper, like it's not negotiable.

nortsr1

For Toyota, I know that there is a fee for the port installed items that is mandatory for dealers to charge(Southeastern region)...as for VW and Honda..., if the fee is preprinted on the sales form and it is not on the "invoice" than I would have to assume it is negotiable.
Whatever vehicle you are interested in... get your numbers from the Edmunds site under new cars...get the MSRP and Invoice prices of exactly what you want...go prepared and make "an offer". They will either negotiate that price or simply walk out!!! I live in Melbourne Beach, Florida and have never had a problem negotiating for my vehicles.
I don't know what type of vehicle you are looking for...but for example....Honda has great deals on their (for example) 2005 Accords and Rav4's right now. go to the Prices paid forums and check it out.

cadillacmike

That's the problem, the sign is in the F&I guy's office, which customers don't get to until AFTER they "negotiated" the car's "price" :mad:

cadillacmike

In Hawaii last week, I had a $125.00 rental turn into $189.00 after taxes, fees, etc.

Good thing you all paid it (gov't business, and reimbursed). :P

cadillacmike

It's probably a TOYota dealership.

Dealer doc fees range from zero to 600 (And I thought the local Cadillac dealer was nuts with a 499 doc fee)! :surprise:

sbell4

$400 x 300 cars per month = $120,000

all fees should be disclosed before you enter the business office and count the doc fee as profit when you negoiate your deal

fastdriver

cotmc-

Isn't United Auto owned by Roger Penske? They recently bought Inskip Motors- BMW, Rolls Royce, Audi, Lexus, Acura etc.- in Warwick, RI.

I guess with the size and "test tracks" they have at some of their facilities, they need that outrageous DOC fee to put it all together.

Here in CT. the DMV has NO control over DOC fees!

fastdriver

juicymoose

I found information on the WA dept of revenue site that said legislation from 2003 allowed dealers to charge a fee of "up to $35" for a documentation fee. So anything more than that is money you shouldn't be obligated to pay.

little3

This saying applies to anyone who pays doc fees. Credit card companies used to charge "annual fees" until people said "Shove your card". I said this once to Mastercard and have never paid another "annual fee" on any card. The same applies to doc fees. FYI, no state "requires" doc fees but some do at least limit the extent of "stealership shafting" by putting a cap on the "fees". Remember "dealer prep" and how it "had to be paid" until the public learned this was a lie. I bought a car about 16 months ago. When I said I would not pay a "doc fee" or the deal was off, the "necessary fee" was removed. You can do the same. No dealer will lose a sale just to get a "doc fee" unless their greed overwhelms good business sense.

raybear

Around here we have to charge the doc fee to all no matter what...no getting away from it but you can negotiate it into the OTD price anyway, which is what you should be concerned with.