It's ironic that the ones who scream about it being the PRINCIPLE of the thing come off seeming to be without PRINCIPLE. You miss the point that it's the OTD price that counts.
He's right about onr thing, though ..... he won't change my mind. But, I doubt if he's so altruistic as to be concerned about the poor smucks who pay high doc fees. That is too hard to believe ..........
Mortgage brokers finance only. And of course "loans do not appreciate", however, they provide the avenue with which to aquire an appreciating asset, ie. a home. Not a whole lot of people who can write a $200,000 or more check.
I should have stated that they (mortgage brokers) deal with a commodity which----unlike automobiles---appreciates in value.
Driftracer:
Also, I'm no mortgage dealer/broker, however, I have worked in the administration side of banking for 12 years and am now self employed doing credit analysis and loan review under contract for community banks.
However, since unlike an auto dealership a mortgage broker does not receive any part of the actual sale of a home (that goes to the realtor) how exactly would you have any mortgage company pay it's bills? They have to pay salaries and expenses just as an auto dealership does. So, IMO, your comparison of auto doc fees and various fees and charges from real estate broker's isn't valid.
what you're saying, and my issue isn't whether a certain business makes a profit - businesses have to profit for the good of their owners, employees, and the economy.
I just have a problem when folks think realtors and mortgage brokers are automatically above board while still charging $75-100 for a $2 credit check.
It just goes both ways, that's all I'm saying, and again, I've never seen a car dealership charge for a credit check.
Today, maybe ....... yesterday, no way! It was so windy that we had "horizontal" rain, trees toppling over and downing power lines, road closures, school closures. Not so much of a paradise.
Some people seem unable to grasp the larger picture, obsessing on how much profit the dealer makes on a particular transaction. The main point is how much do you pay for the car. Are you satisfied with that price?
My decision to buy was never based on the dealer who charged the lower doc fee. Sometimes, not even on the "lowest" price.
More consumers should adopt bobst's method and not worry about the advertising fees, doc fees, etc. Concentrate on the bottom line. Bobst has certainly picked up cars he liked (e.g. '01 RSX).
Oh, don't go ballistic if your neighbor got his deal for $50 less - it could have been timing, choosing a less popular color, or whatever.
Drift: what gets me is the recurring charge for a title search and title insurance when I'm only re-financing ..... with the same lender!
apples with apples and oranges with oranges when you compare an auto dealership with a mortgage broker. Drift: That is the reason I felt you making that argument was faulty.
An auto dealer makes money from new car sales (small profit margin), used car sales (larger profit margin) and from service work (some other profit margin). To top that off with a large doc fee does seem over the top IMO. Having some type of doc fee is reasonable. I guess the question is how large?
Auto dealers can make money on the front end (new and used sales) and the back end (F&I add ons, extended warranties, service work, etc.) while mortgage brokers have to make all of their income on the back end. I realize that many see the fees and surchages that mortgage lenders charge as excessive, but again, employees have to be paid and the lights have to stay on.
I guess my argument leans towards the complaining about doc fees - sure, there's a great potential to make money on every side of a car deal, but I've pencilled many a deal that was a loser in order to move a unit or meet a sales goal.
For what it's worth, we don't charge any kind of additional fees (normal state licensing fees, but no "paperworK' fee) at my dealer group.
So, customers should consider the mortgage brokers overhead when complaining about paying their fees? Sounds reasonable.
Shouldn't people also consider a car dealerships overhead when complaining about paying their fees? How come all we hear is "those thieves charging $299 to do $25 worth of work?"
Apparently the car dealership's employee salaries and lights don't matter like they do for other types of businesses.
I've been here all along. Rest assured, if we started charging fees to some customers and not to all, we'd hear about it. DMV isn't the only agency that looks at us.
Now, don't take this as defending doc fees; I'd be happier if they went away or were regulated to a sane level.
You still didn't answer my question. I'm not talking about charging some people and not others! You said that, "waiving the DOC fees was ILLEGAL." I checked with the CONNECTICUT DMV. Their response, short and to the point- "Sorry, however they are not regulated by the state."
So, again, who told you that it is ILLEGAL to waive them? Mr. Crabtree or the DMV?
Bob and Phil were talking about there purchase price on the cars that they bought at XYZ dealership.Bob told Phil he got a great price and he didn't have to pay the doc fee.Phil rushes to the dealership and demands a refund and is told no.Phil goes to his lawyer and says he got taken. Lawyer sees a lawsuit and contacts all customers of XYC dealership to find out if they paid doc fees.Now lawyer will represent them too. Goes to court and dealership will lose because of it. Dealership will have to refund all doc fees to all customers sold over the last 30 years. That could add up to millions.
Since I brought up the Mortgage broker analogy, I'll defend it. Mortgage brokers present their fees just as car dealers do, as non-negotiable, "out of my hands", "Sorry that's just the nature of this loan." It's BS. All that stuff is is negotiable. Not to the tune of a couple hundred dollars, but thousands of dollars. They still make a profit, but it's a question of how much. So, excuse me if I don't see much difference between the two.
Jocko, you said: "I realize that many see the fees and surchages that mortgage lenders charge as excessive, but again, employees have to be paid and the lights have to stay on." And you can't extend that courtesy to car dealers because?
Why don't lenders just bundle all their fees under one feel, call it Loan origination and processing fee? I'll tell you why, because you can have a lower percieved price, and you can get people to pay more when you a la carte items, as opposed to bundling. That's the same reason why car dealers have doc fees separately. They're protecting their nut.
My point is, WHO CARES. Determine what you will pay out the door, and offer that. Then it doesn't matter what the fee structure is one bit.
I have had dealers waive the doc fees on multiple occasions. All they do is drop the price of the car by the amount of the doc fee and leave the preprinted doc fee on the contract as is. This way the dealer is covered in case of the lawsuit and I get lower OTD price.
In the mortgage business all these fees are referred to as “junk” fees, and they are negotiable. Sometimes lenders quote lower APR and make up the difference in junk fees (I am not talking about buy down points either). Auto dealers’ doc and processing fees are also “junk” fees no matter how they are presented. IMO, any organization that charges excessive junk fees is sleazy and should be avoided.
I think what raybear means is that they can't legally waive the doc fee for one customer and then charge it for another. They also can charge a small doc fee to one customer and then a larger one to another. They can either charge every customer the same amount for a doc fee or not charge any customer a doc fee. The state just doesn't regulate how much they charge. I think every dealership out there charges one, so it's going to be one the bill of sale. If you say "I'm not going to pay it" then they'll just reduce the car's sale price by that amount but still have the fee in there.
Could be, but that's NOT what he said. My point is, if it is NOT regulated by law or by the DMV or whoever licenses new car dealers, then it should NOT be PREPRINTED on the sales contract and should be negotiated like everything else. It's still a SLEAZY move no matter whether they deduct it from the price of the car or not. It shouldn't be there in the first place.
I wasn't the one complaining about doc fees per se. I was stating that the comparison between mortgage lenders charging fees and auto dealers charging fees was not an accurate comparison. I don't begrudge anyone making money. Just pointing out the difference between a business which makes money from sales, service as well as back office add ons can't be compared to a strictly service driven business. I have no problem with auto dealers charging doc fees, the question is the amount I suppose. And as numerous people have posted, the OTD price is the one buyers should be concerned with the most.
Just breathe deeply, relax, ahhh ... Feel better? A doc fee is no different than shipping and "handling" on some items, some mortgage fees as have been mentioned, and many other nickel and dime fees and charges administered by many businesses. My personal favorite gouge is the eye doctor. "Oh, well if you want a copy of your prescription, then you must pay X. The prescription isn't included in our standard service." Okay, I'll be going to another doctor. Sleazy? No. Annoying? Yes.
If this keeps up, fastdriver's going to spin out and crash. Obviously obsessed and confused with this issue. He wants the pre-printed line eliminated: concerned with form, not substance.
WOW! What some people accept. That's why things are the way they are in this country. You need to open your mouth for things like that instead of letting them get away with it by just going to another doctor and letting him continue in this vein. You THINK that's okay to go to an eye doctor and then pay EXTRA for a prescription? Sleazy??? UNETHICAL for sure. Don't know where you live, but that would never fly in CT. The state medical board would be right on his back!
Enough said on this topic. It's like beating a dead horse here.
I had been going to a doctor for general care and for blood pressure medication. For long time patients like me, the nurse would read my blood pressure for free.
One day I went there and they said I would be charged for an office visit for them to take my blood pressure. I said it used to be free. They said they had changed their policies. I said I could change doctors, and walked out.
The RSX really is nice. It took me awhile to find the best driving position, and I reduced the air pressure a couple pounds to make the ride softer, and now I enjoy driving it more than ever.
I like the simple but tasteful design of the dash. We went to the Washington D.C. car show last week, and I thought the dash desings of the European cars were terrible - all in black, and just a bunch of stupid buttons.
I have never enjoyed any car as much as I have the RSX. The steering has a great feel, and it is like I am more in touch with the road.
It makes me feel younger all the time. Hey Prophet, is your daughter still unattached?
She has a new boyfriend who's in professional school in California. But, you know about kids in her situation: young; attractive (didn't get her looks from me, fortunately); educated (that was on my money!); got the world by the tail.
I hear ya, my point wasn't so much comparing the businesses as the similarity in practices. regarding the minutae of fees. I still stand by my points regarding bundled versus A La Carte pricing, and the representation of those fees as being non-negotiable.
"And you can't extend that courtesy to car dealers because?"
Prodigal, IMO (not to pretend to express another poster's thoughts), neither one is about courtesy. It's about business model. Car dealer: at a basic level, makes money by selling cars. Period. If they made money processing the docs, they wouldn't be a car dealership. Mortgage brokers: they work to complete the loan paperwork for you, etc. They don't make money off the sale of house--they are essentially selling you a loan. Is $75 for a $3 credit check excessive? Sure. But, the regulated nature of the business requires, to some extent, this detailed breakdown. Besides, as you pointed out, if all those fees total $2000, what is the difference if they do a "one-fee loan" (which I have started to see advertised) of $2000? I prefer the breakdown, in this kind of purchase. In any event, I don't use mortgage brokers and in my job, when a client uses one, it's creates more work for me and confusion for the client. Thus, I stick with a local bank whose rates are competitive and most importantly, they don't sell the loan or the servicing.
Finally, the doc fee itself doesn't concern me--you and the other dealers here are absolutely correct--the bottom line number is all that matters to me in this purchase. So, if you sell a car to me at -100 invoice and charge a doc fee of 400, I don't care--the final number is likely still agreeable to me. My only point is, for example, an MSRP buyer--he pays that in addition to the $400 fee--a fee that leads people to believe a dealer is recovering costs for something they may or may not be doing. That fee or a "services fee" is not the same as an origination fee. A dealers profit should come from the car, a broker's profit IS the fee. I suspect this is the biggest reason object to it being there.
"Mortgage brokers: they work to complete the loan paperwork for you, etc. They don't make money off the sale of house--they are essentially selling you a loan. Is $75 for a $3 credit check excessive? Sure. But, the regulated nature of the business requires, to some extent, this detailed breakdown. Besides, as you pointed out, if all those fees total $2000, what is the difference if they do a "one-fee loan" (which I have started to see advertised) of $2000?"
My point is, Twister, that they present these fees in exactly the same way that the car dealership does. Non Negotiable. And as you stated, there are excessive fees in there. Both practices are disingenous. I KNOW how the Mortgage broker makes their money, selling loans. Their profit should be factored into the Loan Orrigination fee, instead they pack it in the other BS fees in addition to the profit in the LOF. Now that I know how this works, I am not pissed off about it, I know how to negotiate all these fees down, because I know they're overhyped. My point is there t'ain't a difference between the way they present the fees and the way the car dealer does.
You are correct, the Car Dealer should make his money on the car. my point is, The Mortgage Broker should make his money on the Loan Orrigination Fee. All other fees are just attempts to get more dough out of the client/customer.
Yes if a dealer waivesa Doc fee they CAN get into trouble.
It's one of the things that the DMV checks if they do a spot audit. In FL, like most states, if I fail to charge just Customer a doc fee, forget it.
I have to refund EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER their doc fees.
I keep it simple and don't charge doc fees. I also work at my USED car dealership and don't make $300-400 a car so I don't need to charge them to stay open.
I negotiated an OTD price on a car over the Internet( dealer). I was faxed per my request the total charges .I found out my price was $400 above invoice( I was told it was $200.oo over invoice while negotiating). No one mentioned the Phila Assessment fee charged to the dealer .I requested a fax of my exact fees. The price is $400 over invoice. I was then told when I asked why $200 more about the the Phila $200 Assessment fee. The fee is on the dealer invoice. The dealer would not lower the price even $100.00.It was faxed to me IN the price of the car. I have not committed to buying yet. I do NOT live in Philadelphia.Do I have to pay this charge?.I believe it is added to the price of the car not written as an assessment fee to me.
...you do not have to pay this fee. You could not buy the car, or buy from another dealer. But if you want to buy from this dealer, sounds like you'll have to pay it.
In the end, it doesn't matter if the fee is "legitimate" (i.e. forced on the dealer by the manufacturer) or "made up" (i.e. dealer just tacked it on). What matters is do you think it's still a good deal at $400 over the Internet invoice? If so, buy the car anyway. I applaud you for asking for an OTD quote, because $X over invoice is notoriously variable. Whenever someone in these forums says that they got a car "for only $X over invoice", it tells me very little about what they actually paid.
I will most likely buy the car. Best offer I have seen with the options I chose from what I have read on Edmunds. I emailed Mazda they sent this message: "In regard to your inquiry, the $200 Assessment fee is a standard fee across the country. This fee is listed on the window sticker and dealers invoice." I wish they had told me up front .I negotiated price over the Internet. After all price OTD is what counts. Thank you for the response, you are right.
What is the 'assessment fee' for? Is it an extra profit line for the dealer or/and manufacturer? IF so it should be in the MSRP.
I would look to a different car company that doesn't 'pack' the sticker price. Ethics are a part of selling. I remember shopping a Buick dealer in a large metro area owned by a baseball team owner and the stickers had $500 of pack in them for strips, teflon spray on the seats, wax on the paint, etc. This was 20 years ago, but it really impressed me where not to buy a car.
this is a fee charged to the dealer by the manufacturer for regional advertising. In this case it's mazda. The reason it's broken out as a separate line item on the dealers invoice is due to different advertising costs in different regions...also the number of cars sold in the region play a role in the fee mazda charges it's dealers.
remember, everything you buy has an advertising fee built into the retailers cost...you just don't get to see the invoice on many things other than cars.
Thank you for the explanation about the assessment fee .I emailed Mazda on their web site they wrote that it is on the invoice and the sticker price. Mazda said it is a fee charged every where.NOT because it was on the invoice AFTER I questioned it .it was faxed to me per my request.BUt it was not on the sticker price. I negotiated as far as I could at the last minute. the day before I bought the car I saw a $50 coupon on the Internet persons web site( who I bought from).I faxed that back.I was told I bought my car 200 over invoice*16303) invoice.But with the assessment fee I consider 400 over(350 over-50 coupon.I think I did ok. I got the sedan i with a 2900 AT.AC and PP1.Plus college rebate.I got the same price with and without a trade prior to negotiation.( I mentioned trade after price as per Edmunds).
Recently purchased and Envoy XL. Dealership had a $349.50 Doc fee on the preprinted form. Turns out we qualified for GM Supplier pricing. F&I guy explained they could not charge us a Doc fee since we were using that program. It was preprinted so they subtracted that amount from the Supplier price and it washed when it was added back in. Worked for me.
I would really compare the DOC fee more to what really gripes me in other comsumer product sales. Most mail order and internet order sites charge a fee for Shipping and HANDLING. I'm not an expert on shipping charges, but when something I would think would cost no more than $2.50 UPS standard (probably less for a company that ships hundreds of packages via UPS per day) and the Shipping and Handing runs maybe $4.95 or $7.80, the overage goes to cover cost of warehousing, overhead, etc. If I buy the same product at any local retailer, I get the shelf price + tax, shipping, handling, etc included.
This type of thing is about the same to me as the doc fee. If I pay either of them, I have to add that to my bottom line cost. Just gripes me that each of these to me is a BS explanation for what I recognize as "We got to make a little more money somehow, but if we call it something other than what it is, you might like it better."
Comments
He's right about onr thing, though ..... he won't change my mind. But, I doubt if he's so altruistic as to be concerned about the poor smucks who pay high doc fees. That is too hard to believe ..........
How sad. Maybe where you're from there are NO altruistic people only self-centered ones like you seem to be!
fastdriver
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Mortgage brokers finance only. And of course "loans do not appreciate", however, they provide the avenue with which to aquire an appreciating asset, ie. a home. Not a whole lot of people who can write a $200,000 or more check.
I should have stated that they (mortgage brokers) deal with a commodity which----unlike automobiles---appreciates in value.
Driftracer:
Also, I'm no mortgage dealer/broker, however, I have worked in the administration side of banking for 12 years and am now self employed doing credit analysis and loan review under contract for community banks.
However, since unlike an auto dealership a mortgage broker does not receive any part of the actual sale of a home (that goes to the realtor) how exactly would you have any mortgage company pay it's bills? They have to pay salaries and expenses just as an auto dealership does. So, IMO, your comparison of auto doc fees and various fees and charges from real estate broker's isn't valid.
fastdriver
I just have a problem when folks think realtors and mortgage brokers are automatically above board while still charging $75-100 for a $2 credit check.
It just goes both ways, that's all I'm saying, and again, I've never seen a car dealership charge for a credit check.
Some people seem unable to grasp the larger picture, obsessing on how much profit the dealer makes on a particular transaction. The main point is how much do you pay for the car. Are you satisfied with that price?
My decision to buy was never based on the dealer who charged the lower doc fee. Sometimes, not even on the "lowest" price.
More consumers should adopt bobst's method and not worry about the advertising fees, doc fees, etc. Concentrate on the bottom line. Bobst has certainly picked up cars he liked (e.g. '01 RSX).
Oh, don't go ballistic if your neighbor got his deal for $50 less - it could have been timing, choosing a less popular color, or whatever.
Drift: what gets me is the recurring charge for a title search and title insurance when I'm only re-financing ..... with the same lender!
An auto dealer makes money from new car sales (small profit margin), used car sales (larger profit margin) and from service work (some other profit margin). To top that off with a large doc fee does seem over the top IMO. Having some type of doc fee is reasonable. I guess the question is how large?
Auto dealers can make money on the front end (new and used sales) and the back end (F&I add ons, extended warranties, service work, etc.) while mortgage brokers have to make all of their income on the back end. I realize that many see the fees and surchages that mortgage lenders charge as excessive, but again, employees have to be paid and the lights have to stay on.
For what it's worth, we don't charge any kind of additional fees (normal state licensing fees, but no "paperworK' fee) at my dealer group.
Shouldn't people also consider a car dealerships overhead when complaining about paying their fees? How come all we hear is "those thieves charging $299 to do $25 worth of work?"
Apparently the car dealership's employee salaries and lights don't matter like they do for other types of businesses.
Now, don't take this as defending doc fees; I'd be happier if they went away or were regulated to a sane level.
You still didn't answer my question. I'm not talking about charging some people and not others! You said that, "waiving the DOC fees was ILLEGAL." I checked with the CONNECTICUT DMV. Their response, short and to the point- "Sorry, however they are not regulated by the state."
So, again, who told you that it is ILLEGAL to waive them? Mr. Crabtree or the DMV?
fastdriver
Lawyer sees a lawsuit and contacts all customers of XYC dealership to find out if they paid doc fees.Now lawyer will represent them too.
Goes to court and dealership will lose because of it.
Dealership will have to refund all doc fees to all customers sold over the last 30 years.
That could add up to millions.
Jocko, you said: "I realize that many see the fees and surchages that mortgage lenders charge as excessive, but again, employees have to be paid and the lights have to stay on." And you can't extend that courtesy to car dealers because?
Why don't lenders just bundle all their fees under one feel, call it Loan origination and processing fee? I'll tell you why, because you can have a lower percieved price, and you can get people to pay more when you a la carte items, as opposed to bundling. That's the same reason why car dealers have doc fees separately. They're protecting their nut.
My point is, WHO CARES. Determine what you will pay out the door, and offer that. Then it doesn't matter what the fee structure is one bit.
In the mortgage business all these fees are referred to as “junk” fees, and they are negotiable. Sometimes lenders quote lower APR and make up the difference in junk fees (I am not talking about buy down points either). Auto dealers’ doc and processing fees are also “junk” fees no matter how they are presented. IMO, any organization that charges excessive junk fees is sleazy and should be avoided.
Could be, but that's NOT what he said. My point is, if it is NOT regulated by law or by the DMV or whoever licenses new car dealers, then it should NOT be PREPRINTED on the sales contract and should be negotiated like everything else. It's still a SLEAZY move no matter whether they deduct it from the price of the car or not. It shouldn't be there in the first place.
fastdriver
"MSRP isn't regulated by the state, but it _is_ printed on the sticker. Does that mean it's non-negotiable?"
It's NOT the same thing at all. Don't confuse the issue or try to lessen the SLEAZE factor! It's NOT printed on the sales contract!
fastdriver
A doc fee is no different than shipping and "handling" on some items, some mortgage fees as have been mentioned, and many other nickel and dime fees and charges administered by many businesses. My personal favorite gouge is the eye doctor. "Oh, well if you want a copy of your prescription, then you must pay X. The prescription isn't included in our standard service." Okay, I'll be going to another doctor. Sleazy? No. Annoying? Yes.
WOW! What some people accept. That's why things are the way they are in this country. You need to open your mouth for things like that instead of letting them get away with it by just going to another doctor and letting him continue in this vein. You THINK that's okay to go to an eye doctor and then pay EXTRA for a prescription? Sleazy??? UNETHICAL for sure. Don't know where you live, but that would never fly in CT. The state medical board would be right on his back!
Enough said on this topic. It's like beating a dead horse here.
fastdriver
One day I went there and they said I would be charged for an office visit for them to take my blood pressure. I said it used to be free. They said they had changed their policies. I said I could change doctors, and walked out.
I like my new doctors more.
DOC(tor) fees? :>) :>) :>)
How are things going with the RSX? My sister just got her '04 TL.
I like the simple but tasteful design of the dash. We went to the Washington D.C. car show last week, and I thought the dash desings of the European cars were terrible - all in black, and just a bunch of stupid buttons.
I have never enjoyed any car as much as I have the RSX. The steering has a great feel, and it is like I am more in touch with the road.
It makes me feel younger all the time. Hey Prophet, is your daughter still unattached?
She just LOVES her RSX, a typical "chick car."
Prodigal, IMO (not to pretend to express another poster's thoughts), neither one is about courtesy. It's about business model. Car dealer: at a basic level, makes money by selling cars. Period. If they made money processing the docs, they wouldn't be a car dealership. Mortgage brokers: they work to complete the loan paperwork for you, etc. They don't make money off the sale of house--they are essentially selling you a loan. Is $75 for a $3 credit check excessive? Sure. But, the regulated nature of the business requires, to some extent, this detailed breakdown. Besides, as you pointed out, if all those fees total $2000, what is the difference if they do a "one-fee loan" (which I have started to see advertised) of $2000? I prefer the breakdown, in this kind of purchase. In any event, I don't use mortgage brokers and in my job, when a client uses one, it's creates more work for me and confusion for the client. Thus, I stick with a local bank whose rates are competitive and most importantly, they don't sell the loan or the servicing.
Finally, the doc fee itself doesn't concern me--you and the other dealers here are absolutely correct--the bottom line number is all that matters to me in this purchase. So, if you sell a car to me at -100 invoice and charge a doc fee of 400, I don't care--the final number is likely still agreeable to me. My only point is, for example, an MSRP buyer--he pays that in addition to the $400 fee--a fee that leads people to believe a dealer is recovering costs for something they may or may not be doing. That fee or a "services fee" is not the same as an origination fee. A dealers profit should come from the car, a broker's profit IS the fee. I suspect this is the biggest reason object to it being there.
Then of course, there's the PREPRINTED DOC fee! ;-))
fastdriver
My point is, Twister, that they present these fees in exactly the same way that the car dealership does. Non Negotiable. And as you stated, there are excessive fees in there. Both practices are disingenous. I KNOW how the Mortgage broker makes their money, selling loans. Their profit should be factored into the Loan Orrigination fee, instead they pack it in the other BS fees in addition to the profit in the LOF. Now that I know how this works, I am not pissed off about it, I know how to negotiate all these fees down, because I know they're overhyped. My point is there t'ain't a difference between the way they present the fees and the way the car dealer does.
You are correct, the Car Dealer should make his money on the car. my point is, The Mortgage Broker should make his money on the Loan Orrigination Fee. All other fees are just attempts to get more dough out of the client/customer.
http://wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1630752
fastdriver
Your generalization is very offensive, in a number of ways.
You asked! I was just telling you what I thought! I didn't steal the car! I deleted it.
fastdriver
It's one of the things that the DMV checks if they do a spot audit. In FL, like most states, if I fail to charge just Customer a doc fee, forget it.
I have to refund EVERY SINGLE CUSTOMER their doc fees.
I keep it simple and don't charge doc fees. I also work at my USED car dealership and don't make $300-400 a car so I don't need to charge them to stay open.
Bill
In the end, it doesn't matter if the fee is "legitimate" (i.e. forced on the dealer by the manufacturer) or "made up" (i.e. dealer just tacked it on). What matters is do you think it's still a good deal at $400 over the Internet invoice? If so, buy the car anyway. I applaud you for asking for an OTD quote, because $X over invoice is notoriously variable. Whenever someone in these forums says that they got a car "for only $X over invoice", it tells me very little about what they actually paid.
across the country. This fee is listed on the window sticker and
dealers invoice." I wish they had told me up front .I negotiated price over the Internet. After all price OTD is what counts.
Thank you for the response, you are right.
( as far as my options).
Is it an extra profit line for the dealer or/and manufacturer? IF so it should be in the MSRP.
I would look to a different car company that doesn't 'pack' the sticker price. Ethics are a part of selling.
I remember shopping a Buick dealer in a large metro area owned by a baseball team owner and the stickers had $500 of pack in them for strips, teflon spray on the seats, wax on the paint, etc.
This was 20 years ago, but it really impressed me where not to buy a car.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
remember, everything you buy has an advertising fee built into the retailers cost...you just don't get to see the invoice on many things other than cars.
I can't tell you how much incorrect inforamtion we must "fix" from mazda customer.
enjoy your new car!!!
I would really compare the DOC fee more to what really gripes me in other comsumer product sales. Most mail order and internet order sites charge a fee for Shipping and HANDLING. I'm not an expert on shipping charges, but when something I would think would cost no more than $2.50 UPS standard (probably less for a company that ships hundreds of packages via UPS per day) and the Shipping and Handing runs maybe $4.95 or $7.80, the overage goes to cover cost of warehousing, overhead, etc. If I buy the same product at any local retailer, I get the shelf price + tax, shipping, handling, etc included.
This type of thing is about the same to me as the doc fee. If I pay either of them, I have to add that to my bottom line cost. Just gripes me that each of these to me is a BS explanation for what I recognize as "We got to make a little more money somehow, but if we call it something other than what it is, you might like it better."
Just my opinion.. Bill