Documentation Fees

outhere

again...profits are not what is in question here!
Considering what you have said...then why not just change from the term "DOC FEE" to "Additional profit for me after we have already agreed on a price for the vehicle I am selling and you are buying"?
I do agree, though, the dealer today is unfairly scrutinized.

cwjacobsen

In Indiana the customer is on his own when it comes to registering his vehicle. All the dealer does is tape a paper tag to the rear window with a date thirty days out prominently written on it. It's the customer who is then responsible for getting his vehicle registered before time runs out. Interestingly, this doesn't seem to stop dealers from charging "doc" fees which never seem to come up until after the customer thinks negotiating is over.

Look, any dealer has legitimate expenses and hopes to make his or her profit objectives. I have no problem with that. But let the price be the price.

I fail to see why any one particular expense should be arbitrarily carved out and surcharged separately from any other. You may as well spring a separate electricity expense fee on the buyer. The coffee on the sales floor and in the service lounge must cost you something. How about prorating that across the number of cars you sell and having a coffee fund surcharge. Why not an office supplies fee?

Electricity, coffee fund, and office supply fees don't exist because if a dealer tried to tack them on at the end of the deal, the customer would be laughing too hard to sign the papers. A documentation fee sounds just official enough (like sales tax) to convince some customers that this is something they can be required to pay in addition to the agreed upon price.

The expenses may be legitimate, but the back-end manner in which - in my experience most - dealers try to recoup them is nothing more than one last chance to try to sweeten the deal.

CWJ

rroyce10

*** All the dealer does is tape a paper tag to the rear window with a date thirty days. ---

Really, don't you ever read these posts, that tag has nothing to do with the pay-off, the sales tax, the title chase, the title flip - all this stuff is paid UPFRONT by the dealer .. remember the last vehicle you bought ..? That dealer paid all your sales tax upfront and probably wasn't reimbursed for a week or so .. who cares about the temp tag that the state charges me $3.50 for. Then, I have a full time person account for every flippin' one every month

Please Read: I have to pay $8.00 dollars an Hr, I also pay the gas, lunch and "depending' on what state, I pay the $6.50 per title flip and the $2.75 per reg.

Depending on how many titles, registration and Surety agreements, this guy will spend 3/4 hrs a day (min), standing in line waiting to drop off or picking-up the titles and regs .. so it's a lot more than that piece of paper that folks get handed at the dealership .. plus depending on the day, I pay someone to log the deals, do the pay-offs, print the deals and notarize all the paper work he gets handed, so add another 3/4 hrs a day there.

Kinda keep in mind, the dealers money is always Upfront, the vehicle, the paper work, the overhead and what most folks forget is - dealers pay All the sales tax upfront on the buyers deal waaay before we get paid ...

So unless someone has an easy $100,000 just sitting around per month, then there has to be some charge to the buyer.

Got it yet ..?

Terry.

mackabee

To paraphrase right out of the VADA (Virginia Automobile Dealers Association) brochure on processing fees, also known as document fees in some states. "In the state of VA, they are allowed by law but not required by law. The decision to charge a "processing fee" is made by each dealership and is strictly within the discretion of the dealer." "The Buyer's Order, One of the primary forms required by Virginia is the Buyers Order. This document contains a list of all the items associated with a vehicle's selling price. For a new car this may include the MSRP, any factory-added accessories, and any dealer added accessories. All charges must be included on the Buyers Order. In order to simplify the charges for services the dealership provides to customer that are not a part of the normal sellinag of a car, many dealerships assign them the collective category of "processing fee" instead of itemizing each of these. This processing fee is displayed on the Buyers Order. Some dealers elect to absorb these costs and not charge a processing fee" And there you have it. Pick one up at your local dealer if you live in Va. I agree with all of you, some of these fees are mighty high. Unfortunately, when one dealer raises their fee, the others follow suit. If you don't like them, contact your congressman. And I don't say this to be a wise crack, because sometimes these fees make my job a lot harder than it has to be.
: )
Mackabee

outhere

You seem to be very straight forward. What do you charge for a doc fee on a deal? And, does your doc fee include state registration charges?

tboner

I agree upto a point.

The title chase and the payoff however, are only valid if there is a trade in.

So if I walk in, sans trade (little French lingo here, ) and buy the car, then I think it is only fair for the costs of tracking down that car's title to be figured into either

a) My selling price
b) What you offered the "other guy" for taking in his trade.

If you go back to the beginning of this discussion, I did say I'm sure somebody is paying someone $10/hour to track all of these little bits of paper down and put them in the right folders or bureacrats hands.

BTW, on my last car two cars, I had to register them myself. One was a private sale, the other purchased from a dealer in another state.

But please don't get me wrong, I want car dealers to make money. I like cars.

But this has the appearance in many cases of charging the previous owner and the new owner for the same thing.

I know most of the dealers here are pillars of their communities, so of course, don't take anything said here personally.

TB
Wondering if wifey still has French Maid costume from Halloween, LOL

abtseller

also, you won't find one dealer more than $10 cheaper than another here for 100 or so miles. Another item of note, I, as an employee, have to pay it when I buy a car here, also.

Ed

outhere

You seem to be very straight forward. What do you charge for a doc fee on a deal? And, does your doc fee include state registration charges?

rroyce10

Wondering if wifey still has French Maid costume from Halloween, LOL

Yeeeeeaaah, you go boy ...!

But anyway (Slap) .. what were we talking about, oh yeah.!

I charge $99 with a trade and $49 without. Now thats me, I know other dealers charge more and I'm sure some charge less -- by the way, the reason why you did all your own work on the last 2 was .. one was private and the other one was out of state via dealer. Now sometimes I still have to do the work, cuz most states are recriprocol and I still have to pay all the taxes Upfront, then you get a tax paid sheet, then all you do is grab the tag when the 30 day temp starts to run out ..

Did she have a little feather duster .l.o.l..

I didn't say that .. or did I.

Terry.

rroyce10

landru2

Of course doc fees cover some legitimate expenses. Of course doc fees are used to increase the profit on a deal. And of course, everyone posting about them knows this. That so many are going to bat for the great uninformed masses is touching.

What's the big shock about this anyway? Are some people really naive enough to believe that they can continue to buy for invoice or less with no attempt by dealers to recoup this? How many people paid doc fees when they bought cars in the 50', 60's, or 70's? Very, very few. Profit margins on cars are at their lowest level ever thanks to many factors including the fact that dealer invoice is now common knowledge for those that care to look for it.

Someone doesn't like a dealer's doc fee? Fine. They're free to buy from whoever they like. But to whine about it like it's a total affront to commerce is ridiculous.

caramo

Doc fees are on the high side here. I don't like it myself, would prefer to have that money in the gross and get paid on it.

zueslewis

Just like the speed-pass (or whatever it was called) anti-theft system that was installed in every new and used car at a Ford dealer I wrote F&I for (for a very short period of time). The charge was $249.00 for this $15 item - to remove the item took less than 2 minutes, to decline took a line through the pre-entered price on the buyer's order. For every unit we sold, we made $234, for the ones that were reclined, there were no hard feelings.

outhere

who can argue with that amount. $398 or $499.95...just doesn't make sense. Shop the the doc!

audia8q

Don't bother shopping the DOC....it makes much more sense to shop the whole deal.

Do you really care if the DOC fee is $5 or $5000 if the bottom line is the lowest??

fdthird

If these fees are such a vital part of paying for your expenses, I wonder how car dealers survive in a state like New York that has a limit in the fees of around $40?

zueslewis

the system was abused and the dealers just have to deal with it.

alfox

by increasing the price of the car to generate the profits they need. Why is this all so complex? If a customer gets socked with a doc fee after the price was agreed upon, then there was a miscommunication.

If the customer failed to ask for an out-the-door price, including all dealer fees, it's the customer's fault. He/she needs to deal with his/her own failure and not blame the dealer.

If the customer DID ask for an out-the-door price including all dealer fees, and the salesperson failed to disclose the doc fee at that time, it's the sales-person's fault and the customer should consider not rewarding such behavior with a sale.

See - it's simple! Therefore I conclude that much of the angst in this topic must be generated from some other agenda, such as begrudging the dealer his profit....

ccotenj

"...such as begrudging the dealer his profit.... "

NO! say it ain't so!!!

-Chris

fdthird

Look, the big deal is that many customers shop price on the car...not the rest of the fees. If you think that's stupid, fine, but that's the way the world works. If dealer A gives me a bid of $25,398 and B a bid of $25,200 it looks like I am saving $200...but if he then adds $400 doc fees then it looks like I am being had!

Why not just charge what the documents cost to process and raise the price of the car $200? Obviously, if a state like NY has a limit on these fees there must have been at least a perceived sham going on!

alfox

No, I don't think it's stupid. Shopping price is a lot smarter than shopping payments, and I know a lot of people do that. But if you shop price without defining what "price" means, you leave yourself open for every trick in the book. It's just common sense.

There is no shortage of advice on car-buying that tell you about doc fees, ad fees, ADP (or whatever you want to call it), Mop & Glow, etc. Any buyer today who goes in talking just the purchase price for a car, ignoring all the extras that can be added, and then declares it a "scam" when the dealer tries to add to the sale, is trying to cover his own failing with anger at the dealer.

audia8q

I agree 100% with your last post. But as you know...we live in a world that has an excuse for everything and no personal accountability.
There are lots of benefits to playing a victim.

Rich

spright

to "add to the sale?"

zueslewis

by both the seller and the buyer, then the buyer considers himself a "victim" in the F&I office. If a salesman assumes you understand you're paying title, registration and doc fees on your car deal and you ask pointed questions, like:

"How much can I buy the car for?"

"How much will you give me for my trade?"

"What's my interest rate and term?"

The, when the buyer, who has failed to ask any further questions walks into F&I to sign up and finds another $200 in fees, sometimes they have a whole litter of kittens on the spot.

While I don't like dealerships that charge exhorbitant fees "just because", like charging a $250 doc fee when the Mom and Pop store down the street only charges $49; I dislike, even more, consumers with chips on their shoulders, feeling more educated than and superior to anyone in the dealership, who weren't educated or superior enough to ask a simple question - "What's your doc fee and how much are title and reg fees?"

Guess what? The salesman assumed you were smart enough to ask a question that you needed an answer to and because of that, you shouldn't whine about it later.

spright

The previous post was talking about adding ADP and Mop 'n Glo, etc, not just doc fee and title and reg fee.

It's easy for me to believe that when it comes to trying to think of non-TTL "add ons" that might possibly be added to a sale, someone who sells cars for a living will be able to think rings around a customer who buys cars only once every few years. What I can't understand is why some sales people express such contempt toward customers who are taken aback by this tactic.

zueslewis

the salesman and the F&I office are two separate entities. F&I people, in most states, have to be licensed to sell and disclose the majority of products offered. Most salesman are not authorized to disclose contracts, whether you're financing at the dealer, paying cash or going through your credit union.

Financial specialists are used in this instance as they are also the people who interview you concerning senstitive credit issues you may need to work through to retain financing.

Just like getting hit up for Scotchguard when you buy a new couch or the electronics warranty when you buy a new computer, the business (read: dealership) has the right to offer these services and you have the right to say "no".

One final point, sort of a question. If you went to Pep Boys to buy a new battery for your car and the person there didn't offer you new battery cables (always a good idea every 3-4 years) or a battery terminal cleaner, wouldn't you be pissed when you got home and found you needed these items? Not the same story, but it's the same concept.

alfox

that in an up-front store the salesperson will tell the customer the price, and then say "plus you will have to pay sales tax, doc fee, ad fee and state title application fee. That adds another $NNN to the price for a total around $NN,NNN. Our finance guy will have the exact numbers, plus some other options for you to consider, but I wanted you to know that these other costs will apply. So let's talk the total cost."

mirth

I've had the situation where I asked for the OTD price excluding tax, title, and license and they still didn't include the doc fee. They rationalized it saying the doc fee was part of TTL. Since it was only $40, which is reasonable, it didn't sour the deal, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. They KNEW I meant including the doc fee. They had the $40 as part of contract form instead of a write-in amount to make it seem like an unavoidable fee. I just don't like it when they play transparent nickel-and-dime games like that. Again, my problem is not the $40, it's the petty deceit.

zueslewis

and they didn't, that's unacceptable.

If you asked for a round number on just buying the car, that's another story.

cwjacobsen

My experience on my last three new car purchases.

On all three, my object was to negotiate a final price in dollars. In only one case was the price we negotiated the price we were expected to pay. In the other two, the dealerships tried to hit us with fees after we thought we had settled on price and negotiation was over. In one, the salesman and his manager had "forgot" to include the "administration fee." I'll repeat that. Both of them wanted us to believe that they had forgot about their own fee. The third dealership added a "delivery fee." Their explanation for its 11th hour inclusion being that I had asked about "administration," "advertising," and "documentation fees," but not "delivery fees."

Terry can lecture me all he wants on how much he pays his "runner." He also pays his utilities, lot boys, mechanics, accountants, cashiers, secretaries, local advertising, perhaps a mortgage, and goodness knows what all else. His, like any other dealer's, expenses are real. No doubt about it. Covering your costs and making a profit are what setting (or negotiating) a price is all about. And the price should be the price, not price plus certain expenses (but not others) arbitrarily selected by the dealer to somehow be outside the negotiated price.

Landru, I appreciated your post above acknowledging that these "fees" came into existence relatively recently primarily as a counter to the "invoice buyer." (Funny how dealers could pay their runners to spend all day in the DMV without them before. They must have been losing their shirts without even knowing it.) As Craig has repeatedly pointed out, you offer the public something long enough, say rebates, 0% financing, or cars at invoice, and the market comes to expect these thing as standard practice rather than extraordinary so I'm not surprised that these extra "fees" have arisen in an effort to make back what had been given up.

But as long as dealership personnel can conveniently "forget" these fees, or withhold their existence because the buyer did not use the exact same title for them that they use, please forgive me for calling the whole process of having to fight through to the final number "wearying," and not a little bit pathetic.

CWJ

alfox

as far back as the 60's. It's nothing new. It was always optional, though, and never sprung on me as a mandatory fee at the last minute. If the fee is a mandatory dealer fee (i.e., not tax, title or other registry fees - we all have to pay them) I want to know about it at the time we negotiate a final price. If they hide it, or "forget" it, I consider it sleazy and it could poison the deal.

All in all I don't care how they package their price - hell, they can break out their phone and electric bills and itemize them on the Billof Sale if they want, just be up front about it.

mirth

My mistake was say "everything but ttl". Next time I'll say "everything".

kkollwitz

My last few cars were negotiated via an out-the-door price. There were no extras or anything inappropriate during the sales processes.

cwjacobsen

except my new car buying experiences started in 1974, and I'd never encountered a separate dealer fee for anything other than the state's share, i.e.; TTL, prior to the 'nineties.

Dollars are dollars. Let's get to the price and I'll pay it. That's why I describe the whole hide the fee game as wearying and pathetic rather than angering and dishonest.

CWJ

zueslewis

perhaps, in the future, say "Oh, that's no problem - I don't mind fees, as long as what I'm paying doesn't change".

rroyce10

** Terry can lecture me all he wants on how much he pays his "runner."

I never lectured you about anything .. l.o.l.. it's the cost of doing business .!

Did you ever look at your closing costs on your last mortgage .?

Title search $498, it costs less than $50, credit check $70, it costs $4, appraisal $450, it cost less than $100, DOC FEE's $250/$500+ depending on were you live, costs less than $60, administration fee $300, don't cost much more than $75, add a point or 2, which happens to be the banks profit -upfront- then, add a little PMI at a 71% profit margin, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Most folks I know, drop $5,000/$6,000 in a closing on a $180/$200,000 home, it doesn't cost much more than $2,000 -but- that's ok .? .. and you are beating me up for $99 bucks, I bet you have your first communion money ..l.o.l..

Terry :-))

mackabee

Let's stop the bickering over doc fees. It's not rocket science, even an eleven year old can do it. That's what Mack Jr. did when we bought our 92 Camry. While mom and dad were busy shopping every Toyota dealer in town to save a few bucks. Little Mack was on the phone to the store where we ended up buying. It went like this:
Mack jr. grabbed the phone, called Toyota dealer and spoke to sales lady. "I'm looking for a 92 Camry DX, with the following options: xx,yy,zz. Do you have one in stock?" Saleslady : "Yes we do. What color would you like.?" Mack Jr. "Either the Almond Beige or the Wineberry pearl. I haven't decided yet. What would be the total price including tax, title, license and processing fee." Saleslady "Price of the car is $xxxx, tax, xxx, title, xxx, license, xxx, and processing fee xxx." Mack Jr. "What's your name again?" Sales lady "Laura" . Mack jr. "Thank you Laura. I will be getting back to you later." 5pm that evening Mom and Dad are exhausted, have jumped through hoops to get a decent price at three dealers with no success. Mack calls Mack Jr. to check up on the kids. Mack Jr. "Dad, I called this lady at xyx Toyota, her name is Laura and she will sell you the car for xxxx out the door!" Mack: "Really!" Mack Jr. "I wrote it all down in one of your notepads. I'll show it to you when you get home." Mack: "Ok, we'll be there shortly." Mom and Dad get home Mack Jr. and the two younger Macks are hungry and ready for dinner. Mom starts cooking dinner, Mack Jr. hands notepad to Mack Sr. Mack Sr. gets on the phone to xyx Toyota and asks for Laura. "Hi Laura, this is Mackabee, my son talked to you earlier about a 92 Camry. I was calling to verify the figures you gave him." (Mack reads figures back to Laura) Laura : "That's correct sir." Mack "In that case we will be over right after we eat, about 7:30 ok?" Laura "That's fine, what color did you want?" Mackabee looks at Mrs. M. and asks "Ok, what color do you want?" Mrs. M says "We already have a beige car, pick the color." Mack to Laura "Ok, we'll go with the wineberry. See you at 7:30."

alfox

Ah, yeah... OK. It might go just like that - once outta 35 tries, unless of course the quoted price is MSRP. Might go like that with a good price at your store, but not the ones I've ever dealt with, and I'm the guy who has had excellent buying experiences in most cases.

zueslewis

fixture, or the daughter of the owner.....

fdthird

It makes me a bit nervous that all you folks in the car business are very quick to point out stupid things that happen in other areas of our lives (rroyce10 re title insurance, etc)but can not for one minute ever seem to see the transaction process from the buyer's side. Yea, some people coming in the door are real bozos but most are just trying to get along in a process they are not at all comfortable with. Spright said it previously...this is what you guys do for a living..we don't do it everyday! Also, if you are like many and buy a car every 3-5 years, man have things changed in the business since 1997! Doc fees, advertising fees and all the rest...where did they all come from suddenly??? Yea, lets break out the phone and water and sewer bill at the dealerships too!

People in the car business keep blaming the customers for the cut throat attitude, but if someone cuts your margin to the bone and some other dealer sells him a car for that price, who's to blame??? In many cases your fellow dealers are your worst enemy.

It seems that this is one of those areas where very many on both sides will blame the other side for all the problems in the process. I think, however, the car dealer body is the one who sets the tone for the process and as long as you have so many con artists selling cars, the "good guys" in the business will be hard pressed to change the situation.

Too many forgotten fees, double billed items, and just out and out lies happen daily and the average consumers, who are nowhere near as savy as some of you think, continue to look at the car buying process as a scary thing.

Most of our big ticket purchases today make the consumer feel like he's running through a mine field, its just that the price you pay for a car is a lot more than most refrigerators or TVs. Not any harder perhaps but just more costly.

You know the old saying...fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me. Many people have been burned buying a car and that causes them to appraoch the deal with a very wary attitude. I'm sorry but adding an exorbitant doc fee or changing you shippings twice (one guy tried to do that to me a couple of years ago)just makes you feel like you've been screwed!

Is it all a problem on the consumer's end that car saleman are listed as some of the least trusted people in the country?? Don;t blame the consumer...police your peers!

mackabee

Remember, this is when I was not in the car business and me and the Mrs. were out shopping for the best deal. We were regular car buyers then. Now I don't have to worry since I get my cars at employee cost (invoice) for new and $500.00 over cost for used. Haven't bought a new car since the 92, I've now buy them 2-6 year old with low mileage and plenty of life left in them. Save more money that way.
: )
Mackabee
p.s. after driving the 03 4runner I'm getting the bug though.

zueslewis

Advertising fees have been listed on invoices since before I was in the car business ('92) - many consumers saw our invoices and saw the ad fee - it's nothing new.

Doc fees, that's a great argument for anyone. I was looking at a lemon law case from New Jersey tonight where there was a $443.75 doc fee.

Where the heck do you get $443.75?? Then I did the math. It was .025 of the purchase price, tax not included ($17,750). I laughed out loud - since when does it cost more to title and tag a car that costs $25,000 than one that costs $15,000 - the only difference in that state is the sales tax!! That, my friends, is a rip off and about $400 of undeserved profit.

prophet2

.. here in Paradise are based on vehicle weight, not cost of the car. The "sales tax" on the purchase price is separate. There are weight taxes for the state, plus the county.

Do any of the other jurisdictions charge a VAT (value added tax)?

manamal

is local, and is approx. 5% of the value of the car each year, but 70% of the first 20K is "fogiven";

rroyce10

** just makes you feel like you've been screwed!

I feel you are working with a chip on your shoulder .. What most folks kinda forget is, profit is not a 4 letter word. But it's ok for the furniture store to make $700 on that couch you are sitting on, it's ok for them to make $250 on that chair, $500 on the dining room set, etc, etc.

Just because folks know the cost of something, doesn't give them the right to buy it for that .. if you ever knew the cost for your attorneys time, would you ever pay him.? especially when you see the guy just made $900 of pure profit, for less than 2hrs in the court room .. you keep referring too being screwed, what does that mean .? Does that mean that a dealer made $5/$7/$900 on a investment of $20 grand, does that mean you should be able to calculate what you feel is Fair .? If so, it comes down too - buy, no buy or goodbye ..!

I'm not trying to be smart here, but all this "new" info, gives some folks the concept of "guess what, I know what you paid for this, so here's your $50 bucks" .. it just doesn't work that way in business. I know the cost of furniture, but I can't give them a $50 profit, I know the cost of boats, but I can't give them a $50 profit .. that dog just won't hunt. So I discuss it , I negotiate it and when we reach a figure that, the particular dealer and I agree on, then we shake hands and do business - or we don't .. it's easy. I don't feel I was being ripped off .. I might feel that his overhead might be too high or he has too many Ex wife's or whatever - and I go on. l.o.l..

Unlike most markets, there is a bunch of variables that go on 24/7-365. Most folks owe $12,000 on $9,000 vehicles ..or.. they owe $32,000 on a $19,000 vehicle, so pick your poison, it's still the same $$. The vast majority of this has nothing to do with the dealer, it has to do with the consumer. They will put little or No money down, they move themselves up to a $30,000 vehicle, when they should be looking at a $20,000 vehicle and this my friend goes on 24/7, and the Dealer get's the blame for a decision that was made by a 35 year old branch Mgr, with a Masters degree and living in a $400,000 home .. the dealer made me do it.! Stop.!

On many occasions, I will bring a customer into my office and hear "that last dealer screwed me" - I look at their paperwork, I see that the dealer made $2/$300 and put too much into a garbage trade and the buyer is trying to trade now after 20 months, and has All of $500 for a downpayment -- gheez who's blaming who for what ..?

Is there some Bad guys out there .. sure.! But sometimes, the biggest Bad Guy out there is yourself ...

Terry :-)

tboner

This is the 21st Century America. Personal responsibility is a thing of the past. You can't really expect that branch manager to drive a 20K car and live in a $100K house, can you, LOL.

TB
Lives in a $75K house and drives a $1K car everyday. Saves a fair amount of jack too.

rroyce10

... Slap me, what was I thinkin' ...!

zueslewis

Terry - "King of Consumer Reality".

zueslewis

the attitudes that people in the car business have created and car people should expect consumers to be afraid of getting screwed.

All the information is out there to research any aspect of a car deal. In nearly every other retail transaction, consumers don't have that access. Car business folks get hacked on because consumer feels armed.

On the other side of that coin, consumers walk into furniture stores, electronics store and clothing stores like cattle heading to slaughter. No sympathy here.

fdthird

You guys can say all you want, but the discussion here is about Doc Fees. In my car buying life I have had dealers try to charge me extra for standard items, double bill transportation charges, lie about the availability of a car, lie about the expected delivery of a car, and order a car in the wrong color. Sorry, but those things happen to people all the time and they are the kinds of things that go towards people fearing the car buying process. Do they fear buying a refrigerator, TV and furniture too?? Sure...but spending $2,000 on a new refrigerator that you need because your old one died is a different situation that plunking down $25,000 on a car.

I don't deny you the need make a profit and honestly don't really care what that profit is. Never said you should make $50 or $1,500 per car and in fact have really no idea how much you make. I know that there are consumers out there who beet the last penny out of every deal, then they spread the word via web sites like this and the next thing you know thousands of consumers who already distrust the dealer think they are getting screwed again. However, someone had to sell the guy who squeezes the last penny out of a deal that car. If one of your own did not give in to his tactics then he could offer as little as he wanted but would go no where if no one took the offer.

Look, I have a great local Ford dealer who I have bought 3 cars from in the last two years. I go in and he knows that I have researched the car, options and prices. He asks me what I show as the invoice on the car I want and if his figures agree, then he gives me a figure (say $200 over that invoice price)and we agree and do the deal. Painless, nice and very friendly. Is he screwing me??? Don;t know and don;t care, but he treats me well and I send friends to him to buy Fords too! Also get treated well in the service dept so its a very nice arrangement.

I go back to my basic premise thou which is that when a dealer charges $300 to $400 for Doc Fees most people will see that as a tactic to either (1) cloud the transaction process or (2)screw the customer. I suggest the place to make a profit is in the price of the car not in a fee like that. Again, would states like NY put a limit on this fee if there had not been abuses???

No my friend, I think that a lot of times you folks in the car business are the ones with a chip on your shoulder. Don't paint all of us consumers with the same brush and don't burry your head in the sand regarding the sleazy tactics some car dealers use...and if you are a honest guy, don't crawl into bed with the sleazes by defending them.

If it costs you $100 to get my title and reg and everything else, don't charge me $400 "because you can."