using transmission for cleanout of old engine

58vw

I have been advised from time to time by Grizzled Mechanics that one may clean up an old engine by putting in some transmission fluid (recommendations range from one cup to the entire amount) and driving about for s short distance before an oil and filter change. I have been told that the stuff stuck in the engine will "fly out" and jam in the filter.

I have an 85 Nissan maxima and a 94 Saturn both with essentially 250K miles.

Is this adviseable?

And PS having read the section on oil till I'm sick of it, what oil recs, given that I plan to keep both, the Saturn uses a quart about every 1500 (less if I cruse at 85 for any length of time, longer if I don't) the Nissan uses very little between 3K changes.

Thanks to all

58VW

fleetwoodsimca

I'd keep the transmission fluid out of the engine, but it works nicely in Harley-Davidson primary cases.
At 250K each on those cars, why not use whatever has gotten them to that mileage? Apparently it works well.(:oÞ

swschrad

if you really want to play at kicking out the sludge gobs, with all that entails, like maybe plugging some galleries or possibly thinning the oil film too much in some areas of stress, the thing highly recommended around here is to pour a quart of SeaFoam into the crankcase. drive until warm and evaluate what you're doing... if gutless, like I am, drain and refill with a new oil filter as well.

I do not recommend going 3000 miles on this mixture, but have never seen anything on how far to run it. this is a light petroleum solvent that is probably equal to Marvel Mystery Oil and a number of other fine old nostrums that have been around a lot longer than cars themselves.

much newer and safer are the purge pump systems at mechanics shops that run solvent under pressure through your engine.

again, though, unless there is evidence of serious crud buildup, I don't know about doing any of this. it's possible to kick a gob of crud loose that will stick in a lifter galley or worse, and can cause real issues if that happens.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't recommend this at all. ATF is not a good engine lubricant, but it is a high detergent oil.

Don't disturb whatever is going on in your old engines. Do not poke a sleeping snake with a stick to find out what might happen.

And stay away from Grizzled mechanics. This is 2002, and cars are way different than they were in 1972. If the Grizzly Guy is keeping up on his technical training, great, but if he drives a 1966 Dodge pickup with bullet holes in it, don't take advice on a 2002 car from him.

At 250K Mr. Sludge is probably your friend or at worst a benign companion.

Just keep changing your oil and filter, drive sanely and be happy.

58vw

Many thanks to all, I'll check out SeaFoam, leave well enough alone, including the multitudinous snakes in the area, what the hell is a nostrum, would you guys use syunthetic in these old cars? Thanks again 58VW

alcan

nostrum

\Nos"trum\ (-tr[u^]m), n.; pl. Nostrums (-tr[u^]mz). [Neut. sing. of L. noster ours, fr. nos we. See Us.]

1. A medicine, the ingredients of which are kept secret for the purpose of restricting the profits of sale to the inventor or proprietor; a quack medicine.

2. Any scheme or device proposed by a quack

speedshift

Well, I've run ATF through several engines (mainly to free up a sticking lifter) without catastrophic failure but I can see it could have unintended consequences. My concern would be that after all those miles the sludge may be what's sealing your engine.

Guess I should patch them bullet holes in mah Dodge.

bretfraz

This one seems to be well respected by oil enthusiasts and smart folks in the petroleum biz:

http://www.auto-rx.com

swschrad

didn't say what was in the stuff, though...

fleetwoodsimca

Jes' 'member Gol' Bon' Powder. It don't matter none what in it.

opera_house_wk

While pouring injector cleaner into a gas tank is fairly harmless, any cleaner in the oil is chancy if you don't know the current condition of the engine. I've used tranny fluid and diesel fuel to clean the valve cover area of engines with a brush and just allowed it to flush down into the pan. 50 miles later do an oil change. An extra 1/2 quart of transmision fluid has little thinning effect on the oil at engine temperature. Without having a good look at the internals, you can cause blockage of return passages and the oil pickup screen for the pump. Unless you are prepared to closely monitor the engine, you are better off doing a couple 1K oil changes to clean the engine. When I buy a repo car, it gets an oil change and another one 100 miles later. By that time, it's ready for another.

speedshift

I remember I put a quart of ATF in a 389 once and the engine felt so much freer I just left it in. Of course the engine was trash so there wasn't that much downside. I suppose I could have gotten the same effect just by using a lighter oil.

0patience

The problem with most of these cleaners is that while they do help to free up crust and gunk in the engine, that stuff has to end up somewhere.
Usually all of it ends up in the pan.
Now, if any of you have seen how low the oil pickup screen rides in the pan, you would know that it takes very little to plug up the screen.
A plug screen means oil starvation and an engine that is toast in little time.

Don't fall prey to the claims that are made about flushes and chemicals. Unless they chemically break down the sludge into a soluble mixture in the oil and is completely drained out, you are much better to leave it alone.

The ONLY proper way to flush an engine is to flush and then drop the pan and thoroughly clean the pan and oil pump pickup tube. Any other way is asking for trouble.

Now, I know that many are going to say that I am wrong, they have flushed their engines with no problems and all, but in the last 2 years, I have dropped the pans on 7 vehicles that had the engine flush done on it with in 30 days of an oil starvation problem. The only other one I have seen in the last 2 years with an oil starvation problem was one that had just had the timing chain replaced and the shop that did the work let the gasket material drop into the pan, where it promptly plugged the oil pump pickup tube.

well respected by oil enthusiasts and smart folks in the petroleum biz

Now why does that statement scare me?

fleetwoodsimca

...It scares you because it ought to? (:o]

swschrad

"allow me to introduce myself, I am Generallissimo Unter Grauhnd of the Royal Nigerian Air Force, having need to distributors of new additives for oils in those Untied States. For franchise fee of 2500$ Us...."

coming soon to an emailbox near you...

bretfraz

Unknown and unaccountable persons who post tales of doom and gloom on the internet,,,,,,, or someone who has developed a unique product and is directly accountable for its performance?

I have no professional affiliation with anyone in any automotive industry but I would hope that people who are interested in this type of product would do their own independent research and come to their own conclusions.

alcan

I've known Opatience for some time. He isn't unknown or unaccountable, he's the owner of one of the foremost automotive DIY technical information websites on the internet. I also know that he's done more heavy truck service than you can shake a stick at. If you're sold on this company's products, by all means use them then get back to us as to their performance. Btw, I've been a licensed mechanic for 34 years and have seen my share of spun rod bearings resulting from a restricted oil pump pickup screen after an application of the miracle formulation du jour. Let us know how it works out.

0patience

As Alcan stated, I am no way unaccountable, nor unknown. If you would like to know who I am, see Edmund's article on TSBs and Recalls.

Alcan is a member of a group of us who lend our expertise in the automotive industry to DIYers.

If you would like, you are more than welcome to click on my profile and go to the site listed and ask the folks there about my credentials.

To be honest, I don't care for credentials, nor do I care for having to defend myself.

We spend our time to educate the DIYer/consumer and to protect them. If there is a new product, then we would like to hear of it, but we will remain skeptical. We have seen the results of these great products and it ain't been pretty.

bretfraz

In nothing I posted did I refer to you personally nor did I use your words to make a personal point like you did with mine. I didn't imply anything personal; you inferred it. Alcan started the personal finger pointing, not me, so if you have a problem, it's with him. Don't involve me in it.

You don't care for having to defend yourself? Well, neither do I. Especially when my original post was simply to add to the level of information and research available for those who are interested in these kinds of products. You made the conscious decision to use my words to make yourself look good and to drive home a personal opinion. So who is attacking whom?

I have no reason to question your experience or knowledge but when it comes down to the bottom line, all you are offering is your opinion. That's it. And your opinions are just as valid as everyone else's.

I have no horse in this race as I have no need for any kind of flush/cleaning product for my car. I'm not defending or speaking for a product, company, self-interest, career, or any individual except for myself.

I appreciate the time and effort you guys spend in educating Town Hall members. I'm sure many people have benefited from it. But you two aren't the only experts in All Things Automotive and I (again) encourage others to do their own research and decide what is best for them and their cars.

zueslewis

Ease up, guys, we're talking about freakin' oil here.

I thought I knew a bunch about cars and the old transmission fluid flush is something I've done on all my older vehicles. I usually pop off a vacuum line and let the suction suck the fluid into the motor. I feel really dumb that I never gave a thought to all the crud that could be plugging the oil pump screen.

Luckily, I've never had an engine seize, but I'll change my methods from here on out.

Like they say, "You learn something new every day".

In my opinion, at least you SHOULD be willing to learn something new every day.

0patience

You posted;
[quote]who are you gonna trust? Unknown and unaccountable persons who post tales of doom and gloom on the internet,,,,,,,[endquote]

So tell me, how is a person supposed to take that?
If no one should take that personal, then why did you post it? You clearly had a point to make?

No one used your words against you, they were pretty clear to read.

Ha ha, Alcan and I never said we were the only "experts", But we are offering experience over opinions.

Have fun, I'm done with this one.

bretfraz

OK, this post is directed at your personally but is offered in a public domain so others can read it.

So tell me, how is a person supposed to take that? If no one should take that personal, then why did you post it? You clearly had a point to make?
Yes, I had a point to make and I made it. My point was in the second paragraph. Did you read that far? Everyone who read that post of mine should take it for what it's worth to them. You decided to take it personally eventhough it was not directed at you. I can't help that and I'm not going to.

No one used your words against you, they were pretty clear to read.
Then why not just let the words stand as is? Your defensive follow up posts were unwarranted if my words were truly clear to read.

But we are offering experience over opinions.
No you're not. You are offering your OPINIONS based on your EXPERIENCE. Since your EXPERIENCE is not proven fact and are not independently verifiable, all they are is a collection of personal anecdotes until they are proven FACT. I'll restate it for you: Your EXPERIENCES are only OPINIONS until they are independently proven as FACT. Postulate all the theories you want but that's all they are.

Have fun, I'm done with this one.

The wisest thing you've said yet.

zueslewis

it's just like me arguing on the Kia topic.

I got bashed to death over my opinions, which is funny, because I really do get paid to render opinions, to quote:

"Within a reasonable degree of certainly in automotive appraisal, automotive repair and maintenance, and dealership sales and service policy".

0patience does a similar job as mine, so his opinions ARE worth more than the "guy down the street". As arrogant as I am, I can honestly say I've learned something here.

bretfraz

Heck, I never intended to get started

But I don't care to be used as a doormat while others engage in self-aggrandizement at my expense.

There are lots of places online to learn and lots of smart people to learn from. Doesn't take much effort to find them.

zueslewis

Cool phrase - I had to look it up - I think I'll use that, if you don't mind.

If that's pointed at me, I don't accept it since I have no need to "make myself greater" or whatever. I have a great position in the court system and have already proved all I need to prove to whomever I needed to prove it to. I have absolutely nothing to prove to anyone here at Edmunds except that I'm here to help anyone I can in whatever way I can.

0patience

I think it was pointed at me. LOL!
No matter.....
Consider the source. Life goes on.

alcan

Well, I've re-read all this thread and am still puzzled by the "personal finger pointing" comment. I made 2 points, first that Opatience is a skilled, experienced mechanic who owns an automotive website; and second, that I've seen catastrophic results from some engine treatments. How that translates to personal finger pointing is beyond me. In any event, take it as you wish; self-aggrandizing, posturing, whatever, as it really is irrelevant to me. This is an open forum and you are free to opine, my good man.

bretfraz

This type of internet street fighting is a core skill of mine. If you want to continue, I'm game.

zueslewis

I take it you're only here for "internet street fighting". Bummer, because the rest of us aren't.

Anyway - I only know of a handful of people who get paid (very well, by the way) for their opinions. The average guy on the street doesn't get paid for his opinion.

For this matter, I'm required to do a bunch more research then the average guy in order to give a true, educated opinion. My opinions are also subject to cross-examination and get scrutinized heavily, picked apart and second-guessed.

You can either understand that I may have more experience in certain areas than the average guy and by that, I'm required to step higher for a basis for my opinion than merely a guess based on reading a magazine article or taking a poll at the local diner.

You can either accept the opinions of true, certified and qualified experts in the various fields of automotive qualifications, or not. Your loss, I figure. Many of us hang out here and compare notes. You can either benefit from our pool of information or continue throwing stones.

I've had stones thrown at me by $300,000 defense attorneys for several major automotive manufacturers - surely a fellow poster on Edmunds can't push my buttons. Have a great day.

7937

Yah, as they say in the classics - don't stir a pile of poo with a stick - it'll only smell worse.

bretfraz

Zues - Which one of my previous posts were directed at you and your comments? I don't understand why you are inserting yourself into this debate and why you are turning this topic towards yourself.

The primary point of contention I have with a couple of fellow TH'ers is the fact that they took personal umbrage at a non-targeted comment I made about unsolicited advice which they in turn twisted into a personal attack on me. I keep making my points as clear as I can but they seem to ignore or misunderstand what I'm saying. But then, that seems to be a major problem when one is trying to converse with people who think their opinions and views are more important than those from others. Kinda hard to hear someone else when you've got that old Mac Davis song playing at full blast.

I'm sure you've all noticed that I haven't posted my credentials. The reasons are because I am not positioning myself as an expert in all things automotive and I don't feel I need to impress others with what I do know. I'm not trying to build a fan club - I'm just encouraging others to be open minded about various automotive related products and listen to a variety of opinions from others.

zueslewis

same as me, unless I'm asked. I am in the same circle and very similar job position as the other guys and took direct offense to your "non-targeted" comments.

I don't need a fan club, I have a family. I am required, by position and title, to be an "automotive expert". That's what the legal field calls someone with my kind of background who testifies in court as an expert witness. Just like a doctor who also testifies on medical matters. Please get over it - it's my job, just like you do whatever you do.

Don't make blanket comments, attacking people you don't know, who have done nothing to attack you, and you won't have several other people who are offended by your remarks responding to you. Simple as that.

bretfraz

Don't insert yourself in debates that do not directly involve you and you won't be offended, directly or otherwise. You dish out a lot of commentary with an arrogant and condecending tone here at TH. it is not always appreciated.

The best way to avoid being offended is to not be offensive to people you don't know, like me. Simple as that.

zueslewis

bretfraz

But I'm gonna end it, that's for sure.

zueslewis

I'm here to talk about cars - you're the guy who stated your "core skill" is "internet street fighting".

You're angry that the rest of us don't want to play? Please give it a rest and let's get back to talking about cars.

0patience

First off, since your original post was directed at me, you create the situation. Then when I or someone else defends ourselves, we are being conceited?
[quote] Now, you didn't start it, But I'm gonna end it, that's for sure. [endquote]
You are? And how are you going to do that? Are you threatening someone?
I wasn't going to post to this topic again, but that sounds like a threat. Is it? If it is, why?

bretfraz

My first post was a simple link about a flush product that I thought was interesting. I added a few words about a few oil experts liking the stuff. That's it. That was the only post I ever intended to create in this thread.

0patience decided to take those few words of mine and deliver a little sermon about the dangers of flush products. What I took exception to was the fact that 0patience used me PERSONALLY as a doormat to make his point. When you use my words verbatim, you use me. Nothing ticks me off more than someone using my words to further some opinionated agenda. I don't care who they are.

After 0patience and a few others "responded" I felt the need to post a general warning to readers about unknown and unaccountable advice-givers. That wasn't directed at anyone in particular but a few decided to take it personally. The thread headed downhill when Alcan decided to defend 0patience and himself from what he perceived was a personal slight. 0patience also jumped on the bandwagon, taking me to task a second time.

I'm sorry but I am NOT going to put up with that type of conduct directed at me. All 0patience had to do was apologize for using me as an example and restate his comments from a different perspective and all would have been fine by me. The fact that Zueslewis decided to jump into a fray he had no business in and throw is weight around like some self-styled big shot only made me more incensed.

I'll end this little tiff by escalating the volume to the point where the mods will delete all the posts or delete the thread entirely. As of right now that is my main goal. If the mods delete the posts up to my original one where I included that link then things will be back to "normal".

I think this should be clear now. Any questions?

zueslewis

your credentials are in question since you're not very convincing.

bret - you did post #16, which relates directly to 0patience's post #13, where he disagreed with using transmission fluid due to some very valid reasons. You countered in your post by referring to "unknown and unaccountable" people posting "doom and gloom" on the internet, then picked the fight further by announcing that your "core skill" was as an "internet street fighter". Most of us don't come here to fight, but when blanket statements like yours are made, we tend to defend ourselves. This is not yours, or anyone's, personal "take a shot at someone" website. Relax, take a pill, whatever.

Can we PLEASE get back to talking about the pros and cons of using transmission fluid to flush out old engines?

fleetwoodsimca

I really don't think "old" engines can be safely cleaned by pouring solvent chemicals into the crankcase. The problems attendant to that approach are just too risky. I haven't torn down an engine now in many years, due to a lack of engine failures, but in the past I noted rather large deposits of "sludge" here and there. I would be curious to hear what today's engines tend to reveal at this level of exposure when they are torn down. I found that starting with a putty knife and ending with various solvents would clean up the castings and get them ready for machine work, etc. The lure of pouring solvents into a closed engine probably should be avoided-- NO?

speedshift

I can see that dumping ATF in the crankcase could be a bad idea, but what about feeding it in through the intake manifold like zues did? I assume the idea is to get it into the combustion chambers where it might clean out some of the carbon. Hopefully the debris would combust or get blown out the tailpipe.

zueslewis

I thought it would be effective to be introduced into the intake and clean out the intake manifold and all the gunk out of the heads. I've never put it in the oil.

speedshift

Once I dumped some stuff "specially formulated" for decarboning heads down the carb. It generated impressive amounts of smoke so I felt I was accomplishing something ;-).

zueslewis

fogging truck. Does anyone know if just introducing tranny fluid into the intake manifold (not the oil supply) causes any problems?

swschrad

much ATF has "friction modifiers" in it to provide a little "bite" to the transfer of power in the torque converter, and as I remember from an old 76 service manual, the Dexron stuff did that with little fibers. so there is a minor chance you could get another kind of buildup if you are using the stuff as a top cleaner only. on the other hand, engines deal nicely with little pieces of carbon that flake off all the time, so I'm not taking sides right now.

as for all the smoke... these top cleaners don't burn real well, compared to gas. may not be nice to the catalytic, but I haven't heard of any immediate "if A, then B" cat failures, so it probably is a break-even. you reduce unburned fuel over time, and that makes up for the gut shot now.

fleetwoodsimca

Now that you clarify the route of delivery, it calls to mind that as teenagers my buddies and I used to pour diesel fuel into the carbs of our cars, and watch the billowing white clouds. We had heard that it had some "cleaning effect" on the engines' upper ends. Back in those days of large V8 engines being the norm, my father instructed me to NEVER put any chemical cleaner into the crankcase of an engine-- especially if he was the owner! (:oÞ

bretfraz

They're coming out with new tranny flush and protectant products. I met with them at SEMA/AAPEX and the new stuff looked great. Certainly worth a look:

http://www.lubegard.com/automotive/index_trans.html

They'll be marketing a product with Aamco and I was told that product will be the "latest & greatest" from them. I imagine it will be easier for consumers to find locally.

BG Products makes many different flushes and machines for a variety of jobs. See all their stuff here: http://www.bgprod.com/products.html

Trans flush products are under "Drive Line Maintenance Services"

paul29

Chevron makes a product called Techron , formulated to clean combustion chambers and the fuel system . This may be a better alternative to some of the previous ideas stated , that is , if cc buildup is the problem to be solved .

zueslewis

our dealership sold them during maintenance services and we didn't have a problem, the BG guy seemed knowledgable and all, but I still have a problem with putting foreign substances, other than oil or oil treatments, in the crankcase.

bretfraz

I've heard nothing but good thing about their products, especially from dealer techs. But my only experience with them is using BG 44K.

Hopefully ol' Tony will chime in with his point of view.

zueslewis

I've used 44K quite a bit.

I'm rebuilding my 5.0 in the spring, it has 180,000 miles on it and I need to make sure it lasts - I don't know if I should use a cleaner in it or leave it alone.