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Comments
Here it is: I predict that the Maxx will tank because there is no reason to select it over things that are out there already.
There is no reason to waste development money on a middling car, with middling looks, and middling performance. They should have learned that from the first generation Malibu. It started out as a good idea and then they just let it die. Until GM learns they have to enter the market with something better and then keep improving it they will keep losing market share. One of my favorite comments from my old thesis advisor was: Different is not better. Only better is better. The Maxx is different. Its not better than other stuff thats already out there so there is no reason to go and buy one.
"The Maxx rear seats are designed to either fold flat, roll up, or possibly to be removed all together. Racks are always options in cars like the Maxx."
Yes, this is a good idea but it cannot be the only draw. Most minivans so this and have lots more room. Most wagons have folding seats too that will give you about the same amount of room. Racks should be standard but its not a deal killer for me.
"The idea is to have a car with a roomy rear seat for two adults that can then be reconfigured to near cargo van interior."
Once again, a good idea but its a VERY small niche that would buy a car just for that reason. People who really want room will get a minivan, SUV, truck, and so on. How much room? None of this has been released. The Buick Regal has lots of rear leg room and so does the Camry. How much more does one need? Unless one is over 6'4" most passenger cars are fine in the back seat and SUV and minivans have even more room. I doubt the seats will be removable but if you really need that kind of room why not an SUV or minvan or wagon? Still, once again its interesting but as a major selling point? Perhaps for a low volume banner car but I dont think thats what they want for the Maxx.
"Nematode, most of the vehicles you discuss in #41 are going to compete with the Cadillac SRX. I just do not even follow the argument at all. "
Then let me be more clear. You are confusing 2 separate points. GM can go two ways with the Maxx. Either sell it cheaply (less than $20k well equipped) as a larger Vibe but then it should have stayed in Pontiac for better visibility. OR go after the higher end stuff in which case it better come with AWD, ABS, and everything else standard. In this case it should not have been put under Chevy. Also the 3800 V6 will not fly in that company. Its got lots of grunt and I like it overall but its simply too unrefined to even come close to the Honda and Toyota (and some other GM) offerings.
"Maxx should be less expensive. Now you are saying it should be more deluxe."
Its not confused at all. The Maxx needs to offer more for less. Thats the only way it will sell. If they dont put something out there that has a fighting chance to expand sales. Its gonna tank. If GM wants to carve out a new segment then it needs a impact maker. A little extra leg room is just not enough. I'm saying that the Maxx needs to cost less and offer more to have a chance no matter what price target they set. Its that simple. GM is the under dog here. Not the dominant make.
So I think the new Malibu is a good idea. The Maxx was a waste of development money that could have gone into making the Malibu better. GM is losing market share because they are not putting out products that compete well. I dont think the Maxx, going after a niche market that may not even exist, is a step in the right direction.
I would have rather seen GM put its development money and Subaru owner ship to good use into making the Malibu an AWD full content vehicle on a modified Episilon platform. Then take direct aim at the Camry and Accord. AFTER the Malibu name started to mean "better than the Asian makes" then I would have tried something like the Maxx (but much higher performance).
The rest of your points are not points at all, but prejudices to something new.
As the Maxx will be nothing more than a reconfigured Malibu (thus its name) developing it is not that expensive.
The Pontiac Grand Am will be a variation of the Malibu so who is to say Pontiac will not have a Maxx like vehicle as well?
The Maxx is a niche vehicle -- projected 20k units per year are niche numbers. Making it profitably is possible because it will borrow its design and workings from existing vehicles.
GM is not losing market share. It gained market share last year, and will gain this year. Making a niche vehicle that may draw buyers who otherwise would not buy a Malibu does not hurt market share, it helps market share.
Your statement that wagons are a hit is a gross exageration. Wagons are doing better than they have. I am not aware of any wagon that sells much beyond 20k units per anum.
The Maxx should sell for around the same price as the Malibu. You have never once made a cognizable argument why it should not.
I dont really research things before I post them. I do it from memory or post my opnion. When I'm wrong I admit it. I'll tell you where I stopped about 1 month ago in this case:
Opel Signum:
19.4 cubic foot (seats up) approx 550L
49.4 cubic foot (seats down) approx 1400L
Pontiac Vibe
19.3 cu. ft. (seats up)
54.1 cu. ft. (seats down)
Unless my conversions are way off its smaller than the Vibe. The Maxx is not a simple cut and past issue. Which is why I kept bringing up the Vibe. The Maxx appears to be a larger Pontiac Vibe (which even looks like the Signum). If you make it wider and longer you get the Epsison platform that Saab uses now for the 9-3. If its the size that I think it is then it has to be on that platform. If you further stretch the wheel base another 4-6in you get the Maxx. Its like comparing the Corolla to the Camry. Similar but not at all the same thing.
If its based on the Signum then its going to be tiny. If its based on the Epsilon platform (like I think it will be) it will be about the size of the last generation Camry. Dont kid youself. Developing a larger vehicle, even based on an existing platform, costs a ton.
"GM is not losing market share."
Really??? Please see the link below. You do know that GM is down to about 27% (including fleet sales) right? They have had years where they have gained slightly using low finance rates or huge rebates only to fall fruther than they started. Its been going on since the mid-70s. They used to sell about 75% of the cars in this country. Soon it will be 25% because they dont produce mass market products that compete well. Thats not only my opnion.....its public opnion. Its fact.
http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/48483/article.html
http://www.ebnonline.com/story/OEG20010727S0052
http://www.forbes.com/2002/12/17/cz_jf_1217flint_print.html
http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_gm_halt_shrinking/
This one is also interesting:
http://www.autofieldguide.com/columns/upham/0600ind.html
"Your statement that wagons are a hit is a gross exageration"
Really? How about the Subaru Legacy / Outback line. I bet they sold at least 20k of those. I think Subaru sold about 90k cars (Legacy based cars) last year and since the OB is their best seller I bet its a good chunk of that number. What about the Vibe and Matrix? Impreza and WRX wagons? If you dont consider them wagons then I see your point. I think they are all wagons.
"The Maxx should sell for around the same price as the Malibu. You have never once made a cognizable argument why it should not. "
I never even tried to make that arguement. I said that GM would overprice the Maxx and kill it before it got a chance. Where did I say that the Maxx would not sell for the same price as the Malibu? IF the Maxx came in at $18-20k fully loaded it would sell. I think I even posted that the range should be $15-18k to get good sales. So, I'm really not sure what you are getting at. The current Malibu FULLY loaded with everything GM offers sells here for about $18.5k (or less). I dont know what the MSRP actually is but the price is pretty good for what you get. I have a feeling that GM will bring in the Maxx at more like $25k or more. It simply will not sell there without being a full content vehicle. You can get a lower end Malibu brand new for about $15k. I know that for a fact because I looked at it before I got my Protege. If the Maxx were to come in at $15-18k it will sell. I think I said that already. If it goes over $20k then its going to have problems because there are plenty of other / better options. If it gets near $30....it has no
Sounds like the Maxx has more passenger space than the Vibe, but not more cargo space. Plus it'll pamper them a lot more, and offer a V6 I'm sure.
Subaru sold 55k Foresters, 95k Legacy/Outback models, and 35k Imprezas in 2001. So the Impreza wagon might be the only one under 20k (they don't split it up by bodystyle).
-juice
GM's market share increased to approx. 28% last year and appears set to increase to approx. 28.9% this year. What is going up cannot be going down, opinions notwithstanding.
The Vibe/Matrix will sell about 140k units combined. The Corolla more in the area 300k units. The Vibe/Matrix are doing all right but they are hardly market captains.
The Camcords (and by the way, Toyota and Honda both dropped their wagon versions of the Camcords) combined sell something like 800k units per year. All the models you mention do not even come close.
You are confusing the current Malibu with the new Malibu sedan set to debut next year as an '04 model. (Or perhaps you do not realize that GM also plans to launch a Malibu sedan next year) The '04 Malibu will also be based on the epsilon platform. In short, it will be the same car underneath as the Malibu Maxx. Thus the name -- Malibu Maxx. Funny how that works, huh?
I am not aware of GM having distributed any pricing for either the '04 Malibu Sedan or the Malibu Maxx. Whatever the prices are, the Malibu Maxx will probably base in the middle range of the '04 Malibu price spectrum. The Malibu SS, which will be a super sport version of the sedan will be the most expensive. I doubt that the even the SS will be anywhere near 30k.
And yes, GM has suggested there may be a Malibu wagon as well.
Again, I respectfully suggest you are confusing several issues here.
1) Opel Signum is not the same as the Malibu Maxx. That was your original claim. Not mine. The Signum is smaller than the Pontiac Vibe. Its not as simple as just selling it in the US. A wider, longer, more US friendly version needs to be developed. The Signum is tiny whereas the new Malibu will be the same size as the previous generation Camry. That is the standard Epislon (family car/Saab) platform. The rest are derived from it but are not the same thing at all.
2) The aforementioned development, even from the Malibu plarform, will cost money because its not the same platform as the 04 Malibu. Its similar, but not the same. The frame will be stretched about 4-6 inches to allow for the trick back seat. The base (not Maxx) Malibu and the Saab 9-3 will be on the same platform, be roughly the same size, and may even share some parts. A Malibu wagon would be fantastic. GM has made some nice moves to buy some interest in Subaru. They should offer an AWD Malibu tall wagon. That would be cool and worth the development cost. However, I suggested that since its going to look an awful lot like a larger Vibe is should have been under the Pontiac badge. I think it fits better there. It can still be a stretched Malibu but sell under a different name like the Regal/Grand Prix.
3) I think that if it comes in at $18 for a well equipped vehicle then it has a good chance. IF it comes in at $25k it will tank unless it becomes a full content vehicle. I dont think it has a shot at 20k a year at that price. I would say it would sell more in the range of 5-10k a year. I have no idea what they are going to charge for the Maxx. All I suggested is that they have to decide if its going to be a full content vehicle OR sell in the $18-20k mass market range. I also suggested that it would do well in the the $18-20k range rather than the over $20k because there are better options for space and transporting people when you get close to $25k.
4) Wagons are selling very well as far as I can tell. Your claim was that most did not sell 20k a year. Thats clearly not true. Juice provided more numbers but most wagons are selling more than 20k a year and a well designed wagon from GM would also sell more than 20k a year. BUT they should let Juice or I design it
5) Toyota and Honda dropped their plans for wagons because of the development cost involved. When they have SUVs (Highlander, Pilot, RAV-4, CR-4) selling a couple of hundred thousand units a year at or above MSRP why would they spend the money to develop a wagon? Thats nuts. Honda and Toyota also have minivans that really sell well too. When we were looking at the Honda minivan most of the quotes we get were at or above MSRP. They are in high demand so their buisness model would suggest put all your money into production when sales are not. Development is nice too but when things are selling well there is really no reason to throw something new out there. Still, Honda has the Element on the way but I'm not sure who it for. Has to be younger kids because it just looks screwy to me.
6) GM used to sell 2 out of every 3 cars in this country. Since 1970 their market share has ben trending down to a low near 2000/2001. As of late it has been hovering between 27-30% INCLUDING FLEET SALES. Without fleet sales its acutally lower. It has been going up which I'm happy to see because I want GM to do well. BUT the reason for the bump from 27 to near 29% is the low finance rate and HUGE cash back allowances. Its fine too but its not going to last. Its not the same as putting out a competitive product. Its not just the Asian makes either. DC, VW, and the Korean makes have also taken a chunk. It was just a side point but GM needs to focus on making mass market cars that, not only compete with, but are better than the Camcord. Its their only hope of getting back market share in chunks. My hope is that the new Malibu will be that car that gets GM back in the game. I dont want them to screw it up by throwing it out there with an inflated MSRP that scares away potential buyers. I also dont think they need to waste their development money on low volume vehicles at this point. Perhaps when the Malibu catches on but not now. I think their goal should be to put out a mass market car that is more refined and more reliable than the Camcord. I hope the Malibu is that car. The Impala was also a good start but its just not as refined as other in the segment. Once again, they start something out well and then just let it flounder without improving it. As far as the Maxx, I dont think its a good idea because that money could be better spent making the Malibu better. The fact that I think its ugly and people will not buy it just based on that is up for debate. So what? Thats my opnion. Sure, I would love a Malibu wagon with AWD for $20k but I would rather see a Malibu that as better than the Toyota and Honda mass market offerings.
You are wrong about the Vectra/Signum -- Malibu/Maxx. The Opel Vectra has roughly the same dimensions as the Malibu will have. The Opel Signum has roughly the same dimensions as the Maxx. The US versions might be a little wider and a little longer to suit US tastes, but not by much.
The biggest thing they could screw up is drop in an old-school American powerplant that has gobs of torque but horrible mpg. Ideally (but it won't happen in this 1st half of the decade), is they drop in a latest gen turbo-diesel that has all the torque Americans love but with maybe 38 mpg!?
Also, I want either an advanced manumatic of a buttery-tight stickshift. Now I know loads of you will think why doesn't he just get a Passat Wagon (I have one) or maybe a new Mazda6 wagon. That's an option, but they don't have the back seat / cargo coolness of the Signum.
BTW, the Honda Element is indeed very cool, but it is a small tricket that doesn't get very good mpg. Again, an Element with 38 mpg, 150hp and maybe 230 foot-pounds of torque at 1,500 rpm would be total coolness.
As for gobs of torque and GOOD mileage, I have an Impala LS that gets over 30 mpg on the road. It is the foreign makes that do not get good mileage or have poor torque.
A fuel cell? Someday. Won't be in five years, though.
There is a good chance, however, the Maxx will come with a V6 with DOD that will get close to 38 mpgs.
You most likely will see a manual and a 5 speed automatic. Possibly a CVT.
The GM DOD has not been released on any available vehicle, I believe (other than the failed Caddies from the 80's). I think that's something that will need to be consumer tested before we can pass a judgement on it. If it works as advertised, I see it as a complementary technology, not as a primary one. Imagine a modern common-rail turbo-diesel WITH DOD. Now we're talking! :-)
Forget about the turbo diesel and You will likely see a 5 speed available only with the 2.2L Ecotec engine option. I am hoping for a CVT or a 5-speed automatic.
Detail should be out in the next week or two.
I have read some reviews by journalists who have driven prototypes the new DOD engines. They are positive but very short on details.
In order for people to accept them, the shift from 6 to 4 (and possibly to 2 by one account) cyls. needs to be virtually undetectable. Of course the engine also has to pop right back to 6 cyls. when the drivers want them.
GM did not have the computer technology in the 80s it has now. It will be interesting to see how this idea works.
I have a Volkswagen Passat Wagon 1.8T. It's a great car. It's unbelievable what I've been able to transport with it! My sons always marvel that it just seems to be just right sized for everything we need to haul. And my onboard computer says I get 30.6 mpg averaged over thousands of miles in winter. I remember my summer logs showed around 32 mpg.
My only real issue with the car is that its rear seats are just there, non configurable and dumb as can be. They do fold perfectly flat, but even that could be accomplished in a more swanky way.
I like the configurabilty of the Opel Signum. Look at the photos of the back seats. They move fore and aft, so that when I'm getting my parents at the airport, for instance, I can slide it forward to accommodate their luggage, but when they've dropped off their stuff in the guest room, the car becomes a very cool limo by sliding the seats back. My Passat hauled the luggage nicely, but during the 2 week stays, when we would have liked more passenger space than cargo space, the VW is dumber than dumb.
Of course, with the Maxx in regular usage, my 2 sons would get their own seats, with a center console and everything! How cool is that? And all this comfort and versatility with a car that'll get sedan-like mpg (the sedan, incidentally, is the dumbest car of all, and a U.S. epidemic) and sedan-like sticker price. And let’s not forget the safety, maneuverability and good-citizenship of a car as opposed to a mastodon SUV with similar functionality.
If GM brings this sweetie in the U.S. with good motorization and intelligent pricing, IT WILL SUCCEED.
In fact, my aunt saw a Signum recently and when I am next over in Europe I'll be sure to take a picture of it for you all to see.
Just a thought. They may still be too small for what you want, of course.
-juice
Will the Maxx have this?
Really? I could be wrong so if you can find numbers that go counter to these please post them. If the Maxx is based on the Signum it will tiny:
Opel Signum:
19.4 cubic foot (seats up) approx 550L
49.4 cubic foot (seats down) approx 1400L
Pontiac Vibe
19.3 cu. ft. (seats up)
54.1 cu. ft. (seats down)
The Vibe is bigger inside with the seats down and about the same size with the seats up. Thats in European specs as far as I know them.
The Signum I have seen is very small relative to American standards. It would have to be stretched about 6-10in in length AND 4in in width to make it US friendly.
Pictures
http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/index.asp?id=10102
So I'd call it a non-extended, plain old hatchback.
-juice
It is also a hatchback, not a wagon, or at least in Europe where they plan to sell a Vectra sedan, a Vectra version of the Maxx, and a Vectra wagon that is based on the Maxx wheelbase, but with a proper wagon body and extra rear overhang. The wagon must be a very large car by European standards.
I have a suspicion that the Maxx may get unveiled at the Toronto auto show in a few weeks. The website for the show says GM plans to have 5 world premiers, and the Maxx would be a good one. Hopefully then we will see that it looks like the Signum.
The factory-installed remote starter sounds like a great idea whose time has finally come. This may be the first time a remote starter has been offered by an OEM, at least in this price range.
I didn't realize Chicago draws more visitors than Detroit. That's pretty impressive.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5751
Chicago is a much bigger city than Detroit and is better connected to the rest of the country and Midwest as well.
While Chicago gets the people, Detroit gets the press. In fact, as Toronto gets the Canadian press, I am surprised the Maxx is not heading North. It could be it will be at Chicago this weekend then head to Toronto next week.
Saw the Malibu sedan in person at the Baltimore Auto Show. It's not bad, but doesn't really turn me on. Kind of vanilla with a Chevy corporate front. The Saab 9-3 shares its platform but is far more handsome IMO.
It was on a stand so we couldn't get in, but it was getting a fair amount of attention (given the show was almost empty - we had 8" of snow outside).
-juice
Going to the Toronto show next Monday as I have a day off to kill anyway. Should be fun. Can't wait to see what the Maxx is all about. It should be better on gas than a van/SUV so it may be a good alternative for our family.
Look forward to yours as well.
We have a digital camera at work. I understand I can hook it up to my I-Mac USB connection and download them so I can post it here.
So I'll take pictures of tne Maxx and any other Chicago debut and bring them here.
There are two forces at work here:
People think it should reasonably be like the Signum because the Signum is the crossover-hatchback version of the Vectra, which of course provides the platform basis of the Malibu...
But also, the marketing people in Europe are also calling the Signum an 'extended' so the fact that marketing people in America are calling the Maxx the same, it makes people think that they would logically be similar.
But the spy shot on the page and the fact that they think it will be a la 626 makes me think this car won't have much of a basis on the Signum.
seems logic1al to me...
I can't imagine GM developing a Malibu extended hatch derivative that required a substantially different bodyshell than the Signum, with which it will share a common platform/running gear.
I like the 626 hatch, in fact I was bummed that Mazda only showed the sedan at the Baltimore show.
-juice
I'll take some digital pics also and try to post them (though I'm not sure where).