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Comments
As a consultant myself, frankly (and nothing personal) I am insulted when a person wants to buy a vehicle that's listed at $40,000, and only wants to pay $150 over the dealer's cost. That's not frugality, it's just plain stingy.
I recomend you test drive both so you can compare. Hope this helps
second...if you have to stuff envelopes to supplement your income, then you are in the wrong business.
I'm not saying anyone should pay twelve or fifteen hundred dollars profit either, but that's an average markup, and it's sad that customers have become used to getting all of it. That's YOUR fault if you accept it, and again it shows how little respect you have for what you do for a living.
So I figured somebody here on Edmunds could give me their impressions. Local salesman says the 4wd "RIDES ROUGHER," but Olisito has had a different experience.
I appreciate your comments and hope some more folks who have actually driven both models can post their opinions. I'll deal with the subjectivity.
I've noticed a strange clock like 'tick-tock' noise, generally on start-up, but at other times as well. Lasts a few minutes, then seems to come and go. Seems to come from the driver's side dash/steering column area. Does not sound normal. Anybody else experience this?
As for the car salesman here...I'm crying my eyes out. I've just been all through the sales process, and I was pretty well fed up. You play your games, we'll play ours. In the meantime, you betcha I'll be fighting for every last dollar. I'm worried about supporting MY family, not the salesman/consultant/dealer's family.
lycanthe - The reason many people try and beat the salesman out of $150.00 is that most salesman bring NO VALUE to the transaction. 99 times out of 100 I am more knowledgeable about a vehicle than the sales person. There has NEVER been a sales person that helped me get the most out of my vehicle long term, most of them are gone by the time I make my first trip to the dealer for an oil change.
Bowke28 - Maybe you can get the word to Nissan since you sell them. Nissan service departments are terrible. I have had them leave the oil filler cap off of my automobiles twice, not fix obvious problems that were brought to them under warranty etc. I ALWAYS double check things after I take any of my Nissan's to the dealer, they should pay me for double checking their sloppy work. This isn't just the same dealer, I have had this issue with multiple Nissan dealers and their service departments. Once my warranty is gone, I go to independent repair shops.
The fault is not all with the consumer; the dealerships and the consultants have to accept the consequences of their own laziness and unethical practices. They need to either change or keep struggling.
Myself and a small and hopefully growing group of consultants are trying very hard to change this, to provide something of real value to the customer. You'd be surprised as the SALESPEOPLE who have told me that product knowledge isn't really necessary!
My complaint is that after demonstrating to the customer a high degree of professionalism and knowledge and a firm committment to really take care of them after the sale, they still don't feel that such service is worth much of anything. I've had enough success so far, though, that I (thankfully) really don't need the business of those who don't want to pay for excellent service.
Now, the sales consultant is in the middle of this madness, and he gets the short end most of the time. I have no problem with you or anyone supporting your family, but if you have a job, someone is paying YOU for what you do, usally without being able to negotiate, so you should care that that salesperson can support theirs as well. Besides, if you can't pay $1000 profit and still be able to support your family, you don't really need to be buying a $40,000 car, do you?
I'm fed up with the "process" too, and that's why I don't use it. The average new car today costs around $24,000; that's too much money for anyone to be playing games.
I mean, when you go to buy a house or anything else that can be negotiated, are you honestly concerned with making the brokers and the seller a tidy profit? I'm concerned with making the best deal I can for myself. if the seller doesn't want to sell at my price, that's his choice. Yeah, I can afford a 40k suv..but I sure as heck didn't get to this stage by making sure everyone made a tidy profit whenever I went to buy something. this is nothing personal. it's just business.
Now...anybody had any luck finding a locking gas cap??
If you got a truly good deal and the dealer made a truly fair profit, how is it that did you not gather that this was exactly what I was purporting? I don't think a dealer should expect sticker price for a vehicle, but neither should the buyer expect to pay invoice.
A car is not like "anything else that can be negotiated" for a number of reasons. First of all, if I buy something, yes I do want the seller to make a profit, but I'm biased because of the business I'm in. YOU might not care, but I do and that's another point I'm making. Also, a house is a pretty unique thing. There is only one that has the same design and is in the same location. There might be an identically designed one up the street, but you might not like the grade of the landscape. With a car, you can buy the EXACT same model from as many dealers as you are you're willing to visit, for the most part, so using a house as a comparison doesn't really support your point.
I think the "add-ons" and the other sleazy behavior are main parts of the reasons many people don't care about whether the sales consultant makes anything significant, and I can't honestly say I blame the consumer; they have been on the bad side of the abuse for decades.
Finally, consider that you HAVE paid huge profits to others whenever you have bought anything, from clothing to bedsheets to electronic products to dishes. The thing about cars is that you KNOW UP FRONT what the car cost the dealer, and with these other items you have no idea. I'm sure you didn't even worry what the clothier or the TV maker made on the deal, so not worrying that the sellers made a fair profit had nothing to do with your being able to buy a 40k SUV. Those are completely unrelated concepts.
Again, I'm not blaming the consumer alone; the dealerships are responsible too. I'm not defending or browbeating either one, I'm just speaking as one in the middle who would like to see things done better on both sides.
no.
That's news to me. I thought the dealer got holdback even on cars that people order from the factory.
Steve, Host
So when you pay "dealer invoice" on a Sequoia you are paying ~$1500 in advertising and holdback directly to the dealer. Then the dealer collects the holdback from Toyota later. Pretty good deal -you pay him the holdback and the factory ALSO pays him the holdback.
So I just don't buy that 1.25% return on 90 days -ESPECIALLY when you order a vehicle. When you order, there's no 90 day period involved (immediate sale upon arrival of the vehicle) and no floor plan expense for the dealer. Local dealers are happy to ORDER (not necessarily sell from their lot) all the Tahoes, Seqouias and Armadas I want at invoice plus $150.
also, the hold-back is paid at the end of the year, and gains are factored in with losses and paid in one lump sum, or collected the same way from the dealer.
some dealers pay cash for their inventory instead of borrowing the money. if they pay cash, then the published invoice is their actual cost of the car.
this is why noone knows the ACTUAL amount of holdback. you can estimate the initial amount, but it diminished day by day. if you order your vehicle, and it is delivered and reported the day it arrives, then the initial holdback amount on the invoice applies.
Dawg23- Every one of the 5 or 6 4X4 Armadas Ive test driven has been so smooth it surprised and delighted me all over again with each test drive. If the 4X2 is in fact smoother, it is probably only perceptible to seismographs and accelerometers, not the average human rear end. Even if it is perceptibly smoother, Id be surprised to hear of someone dissatisfied with the smoothness of the 4X4, even given the highly subjective nature of the concept of a vehicle's smoothness. Sounds to me like your salesman needs to move the 4X2's in his inventory-
Edloeser...amen, brother.
I'm the kind of guy who likes to leave some money on the table. Hell, I even have my kakhis custom made. I know that I'm paying more than I would from Lands End but the local shop is going to look after me, know my name (probably everyone but the senior people will even call me Dr. BlockIslandguy), offer me a cup of coffee, and maybe even fit the trousers right the first time. I can go back for alterations forever even on the Saturday afternoon after Thanksgiving. Its a real win/win. Everybody got what they wanted: I wanted great kakhis with continuing personal attention, the shop wants a decent profit. Unfortunately, no matter how much value a guy like Bowke28 will add, once the papers are signed , thats all she wrote. Everybody moves on. The F & I guy even gets to shout "Next...!"
Can you imagine how far usually a customer would get if he came back to the dealership in two weeks, mentioned that he had paid all the money for his new Armada, knowingly left some money on the table, and simply wanted to talk with the dealer principal about a slight problem?? Would he even get a re-heated cup of coffee? You know the answer to this. Unfortunately, the kinds of stores that advertize the lowest prices, sell the most product, and have the lousiest CSI are these kinds of stores. Yet, someone is shopping there. Heck the guy who sold the most cars in New England last year won the "Dealer of the Year" from his trade association and his stores typify this.
Now you've got me wondering if the Titan's aggressive pricing will steal Armada sales.
And that reminds me of the Town Hall chat tomorrow evening - November 19: SUV or Truck? The new debate. Look for the chat link on the left sidebar tomorrow.
Steve, Host
How much over invoice is considered fair for myself and the dealer?
How do I stop the dealer from putting any add-ons on the sale contract?
Is there any expense to be paid besides invoice price and profit?
I am entitled to Nissan VPP as a vendor of Nissan's. This entitles me to 2.87% off INVOICE for base price; but does not entitle to any discounts from Options; My wife and I drove Sequoia & Armada considering with my different relationships, etc. price was equal. We decided to make the decision based on "how the truck drives" and "feels inside". We both completely agreed that the Armada was much, much better in every regard (except that Sequoia back window goes down....kiddie memories). Also, the dealer not only discounted the invoice price on the base, but has discounted every other option as well...putting an SE COMPLETELY loaded with every available upgrade (smoke/graphite leather) at $42,352. This is a good price right? I have not spent very much time shopping around, just reading some posts here over the past few days. The Armada is very, very impressive.
I am enjoying our Armada. About the only complaint the wife had was not being able to navigate the steering wheel controls at night on her first time driving it
As a side note - this has been discussed here before and some of you may be interested who have not yet purchased an Armada for business purposes.
It is highly probable that effective Nov 17 the GVW for business vehicles qualifying for the max 100,000 179 expense deduction will be raised to 14,000 GVW from 6,000 GVW. However, to protect small business owners, those vehicles less than 14,000 GVW will be allowed a 25,000 max expensing deduction. This is being discussed in current legislative activity, but is not yet final.
The way the energy committee is working, however, the bill as amended by the Senate conferees would be voted on by the House today (18th), where it is expected to be rejected. House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Billy Tauzin (R-La.) told reporters Nov. 17 that the House Rules Committee is on standby to ensure expedited consideration of the measure. Then the original version of the Conference agreement would be voted on by the House, and is expected to pass. Thus, the unamended draft conference bill would then be sent to the Senate for floor action.
http://www.agriculture.com/worldwide/IDS/2003-11-18T004431Z_01_N1- 7411784_RTRIDST_0_ENERGY-CONGRESS-SUV.html
Unless Nissan completely changed the Vehicle Purchase Program since I bought my FX35 in March, my understanding is that the discount is taken off on the total invoice price of the vehicle, i.e. base price + factory-installed options (not dealer-installed), not just the base price.
I do know that, starting April, Nissan lowered the discount %ages, i.e. from 4.3% to 2.87%(?, what you mentioned) for Nissan and 3.58% to 1.65%(?) for Infiniti vehicles.
http://www.insidenissan.com/vpp/vendor/index.html
For NNA and affiliate employee sponsored friends and extended family members, the VPP price is calculated as follows:
- Dealer invoice This means the TOTAL invoice of the vehicle, not just the base vehicle invoice
- Minus VPP discount (Nissan 2.87% : Infiniti 1.65%)
- Plus dealer added options, Security Plus, etc.
- Plus 2.5% delivery fee of dealer invoice after VPP discount has been subtracted
- Plus destination and handling charge
- plus marketing assessment as applicable
- Minus applicable incentives
- Equals paticipant's purchase price
I just did not want you to think that the dealership did you any favors by including the invoice price of factory-installed options. Dealer-installed options are another thing, though.
See an oldie but goodie Nissan Vehicle Purchase Plan.
Of course what's final could always be retroactive to January 1, 2003. Or they could never pass it and you'd still have the $100,000 limit for ALL of 2003.
But as it's proposed, you'd already miss out on the $100,000 179 for SUV's being that the 17th has been here and gone and you'd be limited to $25,000 179 for an SUV.
Whether you'd be able to take additional regular and bonus depreciation is unclear at this time given the limited information from the proposal.
Being this is so late in the year, there may not be decent clarification of the details until after the first of the year, so consult your tax advisor or other experts before filing your 2003 return.
Another factor I like is that many safety, and creature comforts are standard on the Armada while they are optional on many other vehicles in the this class.The radio controls on the steering wheel (although they should have added the A/C controls as well) and the rear sonar are nice to have standard as well as all 3 rows having airbags which is optional on many of the competitors. A 305 powerplant isnt a bad standard feature either with only the 345 of the Escalade being higher but whose got that type of money rofl. All in all this is my favorite full size truck while the VW Touareg is my mid size choice.