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No. My occupation and compensation are irrelevant, as are yours. I would encourage you, however, never to pay me for something you don’t need or that has no value to you. Unless you are buying it from me, in which case, I’ll just ask you to be “Fair”.
”Until you show the salesperson you are the typical anal orifice customer you deserve fair treatment and a fair discount.”
Thanks for the advice. I’ll try to conceal the fact that I am a jerk. LD, you harbor an awful lot of animosity toward your customers. Is this helpful at work? With regard to “Fair”, what is this? Don’t we have to negotiate to find this point?
“I've always used a system that rewarded the salesperson with a decent deal.”
Rewarded for what? As someone else mentioned recently on this site, the salesman provides no value and has become an unnecessary evil. There is nothing the salesman can tell me that I can’t get more accurately from the published specifications and reviews. Skipping the salesman altogether seems to me to be the best alternative currently available for buying a car. If you live in or near a major metropolitan area, you can request quotes from all of the local dealerships in the area from this site for the exact vehicle you want and get a quote for what seems to me to be an acceptable price. In my experience, this price is generally as good or better than you can get from any salesman in less than two hours of “negotiation”. And barring the old bate and switch (which I have not experienced), it is ridiculously convenient. You don’t have to set foot into the dealership until you pick up the vehicle.
LD, you seem like a decent guy with a core level appreciation for capitalism, but “Fairness” and “Reward” have nothing to do with it. Whatever deal we arrive at is “Fair” (provided neither party is coerced externally), otherwise one party or the other would not agree to it. If the “Reward” for your work is “Unfair” then you should not perform the work – do something else. Every car salesman that “rips a customer’s head off” earns his money. I prefer to not even expose my head to being ripped off, and I generally avoid those I suspect as having designs on my head other that to give me a hair cut at a predetermined price that is deemed “Fair” to both parties.
LD, did you read the article on this site entitled “Confessions of a Car Salesman”? I would be entertained to hear your take on it. For the rest of you, this is a must read if you are going to spend the time to peruse this site at all. Useful information and high comedy all wrapped up in an hour or so read (it took me longer but I read slowly).
Whatever. I'm going to put my Armada in the shop for a week next month and fix the warped rotors, loose rear passenger/driver windows, bad seal on the A/C, and of course, the resonance issue.
Hopefully it'll all be done with at that point and I can get the vehicle I should have gotten in the first place.
-N
What I am talking about is the customer who comes in and takes a couple of hours of your time to discuss their needs, a particular vehicle, take a test drive and ask to discuss pricing. On the first go around I'm going to write the sticker price, trade amount if appropriate, down payment amount and the payment. If that's the one in a hundred customer they're going to sign off and we're finished. The other 99 aren't going to go for those numbers, and that's fine.
I have no problem with showing the invoice on the car. It will agree with the numbers here on Edmunds 99.9% of the time. It is the amount we pay the manufacturer for the vehicle, because any unit bonuses or anything else isn't guaranteed so we can only go with that invoice and anticipate it being "the number". I present it to the customer and tell them they can have the car for $200 over invoice, and that $200 is to pay me and the guy who's going to detail the car before they take it home and fill it with gasoline. That is a fair deal. Lots of them will walk out though and end up buying at a competitor for maybe $150 over. So for a lousy $50, a good bit of which they spend in gasoline and time just to get the extra $50 off, I don't get a sale.
That's the kind of situation you find quite often. The relevance of occupations is for those who think this is the way it should be. I'd like to know what they would say if it was transferred to their field.
As to my system, it's very simple and has always taken less than a half hour to buy a car. I already know before I go in what I want. I take a test drive just to verify there are no obvious problems with the car I'm about to buy. I use Edmunds numbers to get the invoice price of the exact car I want. Since Edmunds doesn't include advertising expense, and every car has it added in, I allow for that in my system. I take the Edmunds invoice number and add $500 to it. If I am going to trade in a car I use the numbers from edmunds and kbb and average them. I add $500 to that. I write both numbers on separate pieces of paper and seal them in separate envelopes labeled purchase and trade.
I get a salesman and drive the car I'm planning to buy. I tell him the amount I'm going to pay for the car is written on the paper sealed in the envelope. I tell him the way it's going to work is for his manager to give his best number up front. If his number is no higher than my number it's a sale. When he comes back with the number, if it's a sale, then I tell him to get a trade number. If it's no lower than my number they have a trade.
Here's where it gets interesting. Let's say my buy number is $21,432 and the manager comes back with $21,299. Let's also say my trade number is $8750 and they come back with $8900. That's a difference of $283 in my favor. I'll have the salesperson get the manager and I tell him I accept his offer of $8900 on my trade however I don't accept his $21,299. I tell him the price I am willing to buy the vehicle at is $21,432. That's the number I've already figured up is fair for their car. It's worth the extra just to see the looks on their faces when I first turn them down and then tell them the numbers required to make the deal happen.
An interesting side effect is that the manager always gives me his/her card and says call them direct for anything. It's amazing how every service appointment I've wanted has been available and they take my car in immediately. It's also interesting that even though the shuttle is only to work/home and back I've frequently been taken to and picked up from an area restaurant. They've always got a cold soda for me, even though they don't provide them to customers. I've even been fed pizza along with the staff at times.
Yes, I've paid a little more for a vehicle than I had to but the service has compensated far beyond the little bit extra I paid.
Just as all of the PC manufacturers have direct sales avenues, the auto manufacturers should have the same – even if it is still through the dealerships. Since I don’t need a salesman’s assistance to select the vehicle, I had rather not pay him for his non-service.
AND, when I walk in off of the street (or ride my bike in with my 2 year olds in tow), don’t ask for a test drive, don’t want any of the vehicles they have on the lot, and ask them to order me a very specific vehicle at a very specific (and “Fair”) price, and get two hours of crap in the process, I get a little frustrated.
In the case of which I speak I offered the dealership roughly $100 more than I expected to pay over the internet just so I could patronize the local dealership (BTW, I was not expecting invoice or waving of any dealer holdback or advertising fees) and the pleasure of riding my bike to pick up the truck once it was delivered. I didn’t tell him that I was going to order the truck over the internet if I couldn’t get the deal done at the dealership, and I gave him only enough time to close the deal that the 2 year olds could stand before they went ape. When the kids went ape I told the manager that he had 2 minutes to bring out the papers for me to sign at the price I wanted. When he came out with one more concession that resulted in only $1,500 more than I was offering, with the kids screaming I was left with no alternative but to say “BUZZZZ, time’s up. Good day gentlemen.”
On this particular occasion, I even mentioned to the salesman that he had a lot full of suckers dying to drive his cars, and as they say, “the feel of the wheel seals the deal.” Try as I might, I couldn’t force him to take my money and send me on my way. I couldn’t bear to hang around and cause him to lose any more opportunities, so I left.
Getting back on topic... ummm... how's that resonance thing going for everyone?
I'll make sure to avoid resonating vehicles though, even if that does keep me more on topic.
this is the most demeaning way to deal with a professional. say that to me, and you get a swift kick in the derriere. i will, however, warn you about the door hitting you on the way out...cuz im a nice guy.
On Sunday, I test drove an Armada and listened carefully for the resonance. I could notice it but during a brief test drive, I could not determine how annoying it would be on a longer drive. If I had the radio or CD on, I don't know if I would notice it. Guess I'm not too concerned.
We are looking for a large SUV for traveling and possibly for pulling a trailer in the future. I've been a Nissan or Toyota owner for the past 30 years, except for my 02 Mustang GT. Due to my good experience with the Mustang, I did look briefly at the Expedition and Explorer. The Explorer, even the alleged Off Road version, does not come with full skid plates. The Expedition has had too many problems, based on what I've seen on these forums.
While the Toyota Sequoia has a great reputation, it's towing ability is limited. I will not consider GM or Dodge trucks. So, I'm left with the Armada. Guess I'll take my chances on a first year product. As for skid plates, the salesman is checking to make sure the two not included on the SE can be added.
As for prices, I told the salesman I would pay about $500 under invoice. The responded later with $250 under invoice and I agreed to consider it. Stand by for the final result is.
81 Trekker
...and by the way...dont let the door hit you...
Were you referring to me or the way I was treated at the dealership? My method for buying a vehicle is not much different than LD’s. I just have a price and a checkbook – no envelopes – my approach is completely open kimono, no gimmicks. In my opinion, LD’s approach is even slightly demeaning – why should a CUSTOMER feel compelled to bring in an elaborate gimmick or reverse the childish “Four-Square” on the salesman. Furthermore, I don’t start the conversation with an adversarial prejudice towards the salesman. (At least I didn’t in this last case. In the future, I won’t even bother with him, the internet/fleet sales method is far easier and less troublesome.) I was hoping to buy the truck and be out of there in 30 minutes. The 30 minutes BTW is far more time that should be required anyway. When I got the quote over the internet, I called the dealership to confirm the options for the truck and the price and gave them a credit card number for them to charge the $800 that sealed the deal. This took 10 minutes and I didn’t deal with it again until I picked the truck up 4 months later. Signing all of the papers and driving out with the truck (with t kids and a wife in tow) took no more than an hour with a 30 minute tutorial regarding the features of the truck.
My point is that with some exceptions, the new car sales approach and most of those that have made it their “Profession” are anything but professional. When purchasing the previous new vehicle, I asked the Sales Professional if he could sell me a car on the lot for $500 over the invoice. He said Yes, showed me the invoice which jibed well with the printout I had from this site except for the regional advertising fee which he explained and I accepted and we made the deal, and I drove the car home in less than an hour. I was hoping for a similar experience from this (Toyota) dealership and got an endless runaround. What I experienced the second time mirrored the tale told in the article “Confessions of a Car Salesman” available from this site. So I learned about the internet/fleet approach and have adopted it exclusively – although I don’t buy cars very frequently.
say that to me, and you get a swift kick in the derriere. i will, however, warn you about the door hitting you on the way out...cuz im a nice guy.
Funny, you don’t sound like a nice guy to me. It seems when dealing with you I have two alternatives: Get my “Head Ripped Off” or get my butt kicked. Very professional.
I am still waiting for you (Bowke28 and LD) to read the article “Confessions of a Car Salesman” and comment on it. Do you find the “Four-Square” approach to be effective? Does the feel of the wheel seal the deal?
what do you think this is...buying socks? if the stars align properly, i can see it being possible, but having the paperwork ready and the finance mgr. being available are 2 totally seperate things.
what would you do if there were 2 customers in front of you?
confessions of a car salesman is a good story, but deals with the extremes...just like any layman's ideas of the car business. (yours included)
my experience (much longer than 2 months) is that for the most part, dealers are upfront and courteous. if you have never dealt with a professional in the car business, then you need to look harder, because we are out here. you might want to spend a bit of time on the "inconsiderate buyers", "inconsiderate salespeople", and "questions for a car dealer" boards. you might just learn something outside of a news article.
It is a bit funny that we all get bent out of shape trying to buy a car and not get taken for that last $100, when it seems that new cars sales are practically a loss leader for the dealer. From what I've read around Town Hall, the real dough is in service and selling the trade-ins.
Here's the Confessions link.
Let's take the dealer/buying stuff over to Nissan Armada: Prices Paid & Buying Experience please, and let the folks wanting info about Armada get back to it. Thanks!
Steve, Host
With regards to resonance, since I had a sunroof this was never really an issue. There was no resonance sound while driving at any speed. That said, the roof did at times shake rather noticeably at highway speeds. While this did not cause a resonance sound, it was rather annoying and I'm sure would make a DVD screen un-watchable. Took it to dealer who knew it was a problem, but had no solution. Took it to another dealer who moved the cross rail on the luggage rack all the way to the back, and this solved 90% of any shaking. So for anyone worried about resonance, I can say that if you have a sunroof and move the the cross rail this will not be an issue.
No problems with the brakes, though the pedal seems to have moved down a bit, as if they need to be bled or something. Will have dealer check at next visit.
As to build quality of interior, this has been very disappointing. Way to many squeaks, rattles and misaligned plastic interior trim. Truck was at dealer three times for this. New dealer has about 75% of this fixed, but still not up to par in my opinion. Makes the truck feel cheap. Probably can be fixed, but hopefully Nissan has solved this for current models rolling off the line.
Have sporadically heard the "helicopter" sound from the hood. This is easily solved by just putting tranny in neutral and revving the engine. This problem has been remedied, as I remember someone posting that their dealer replaced some sort of valve in the engine. Not a big deal I'd say.
Truck still drives great and engine still puts a grin on my face every time I step on it from a traffic light and feel myself being pushed back in the seat...there is no substitute for torque!!
Overall it's more or less what I expected. Buying a brand new model from a brand new factory is bound to lead to some issues. Resonance is a serious problem for some Armada's with no sunroof, but don't think anyone should be concerned if you have one with a sunroof. Squeaks/rattles will be addressed at factory with time I hope, and in my truck with each visit to dealer. Time will tell the long term reliability of the engine, tranny etc. Overall I'd give my truck a B+ with a chance for improvement.
On a side note, drove in a Durango. While the drivetrain is no where near as good as the Armada's, the interior was much better. No rattles, tight fit, etc. Shame on Nissan for releasing trucks with so many interior rattle/squeak/trim issues!!
Uhaul installed the hitch and hooked the wiring up to the rear lights. When a trailer is hooked up, the turn signals won't work. I believe it is sensing an overload and shuts the turn signals off. Unhook the trailer and everything works again. Uhaul says they can splice into the pig tail. I would prefer not to do this just yet.
Any comments would be appreciated.
FYI...SE,4x4,Smoke, 8300 mi, very little resonance, brakes starting to pulsate (rotor issue), when radio on CD player sounds like it is switching CD. Dealer says know issue waiting on how to fix?
From another website forum, someone posted this about the resonance TSB:
"The TSB just came out today. I read thru it and it entails this:
1. Removing the headliner
2. Using a special approved adhesive(about 1 tube per bow) between the bows and the outer sheetmetal. A small wedge is used to make a gap, as to allow the adhesive to go between the two. Allowing it to cure for 24 hours.
3. Replacing and spacing out some plastic/rubber spacers located on the tailgate, on either side of the taillights.
4. Shimming or placing rubber spacers on the rear glass hatch.
A dealer in San Diego has done about 10 of them already and it started out as a 3 hour job. The tech now does it in 1 1/2 hours. My local dealer has done 0. I'll wait until they have a few under their belts before I guinea pig my truck.
Take care,
John "
Anyone seen it? If so, please post it.
-Nathan
Nissan requested that I take it back in, to test drive with the service manager so that he could confirm that the problem still exist. Did that yesterday and he agreed it's still there.
I don't know what they plan to do next. I have been very patient but this is getting ridiculous. I think it's funny that you mentioned not wanting to guinea pig your truck because thats exactly how I feel like I'm being used as a guinea pig.
I would love to hear from anyone else who has had this done, to find out what their results have been. Mine was the first one done at my local dealership.
i would have the service mgr. call you after they have successfully fixed another. have him ask if the other owner will contact you to confirm it.
i understand that everyone is chomping at the bit to get this done, but now that the fix is known, dont you want it done right? be patient.
The reason I ask is because my (local) dealership (I purchased my baby 1 1/2 hours away) likes to write "Not Duplicated" on my sheets, especially when it is something big. I would like some kind of documentation before venturing into that battle...
Is anyone having trouble with their windows? Mine roll slow, and it sounds like the motors are really forcing themselves. Two parts have been replaced, but the rear windows make a groan when rolling up. The front two make four popping sounds while rolling down, and the driverside has gone off track three times now...
I've got mine scheduled to go in for the fix in early June. Maybe by then there will be some more knowledge out there about the issue. In addition, I am going to have them dynamat the crap out of the roof as well as put a dynamat extremeliner in the headliner. Maybe that'll help.
But I guess I expected this. I was kind of skeptical wether or not it would all go back in the way it was when I brought it in .
What was really disturbing was, when I got it back it had an awful smell. My husband and daughter said it gave them a headache. I thought it smelled like wool lite carpet cleaner only many, many times stronger! I asked the service manager if they had to use carpet cleaner or if they had sprayed some kind of air freshener and he said it was the smell of the epoxy glue they had used.
I had to leave my windows down for the entire weekend and forget about my new car smell it's gone.
For 600 miles on the trip I had to tow a 4000lbs load and the Armada laffed at the weight the entire time! No problems at all. For that portion of the trip I averaged 13.4 mpg. The terrain ranged from flat to very hilly and I TRIED to keep the speed at 65 mph but I swear I kept finding myself looking at the speedometer and the darn thing was saying 80 mph ;>). I know thats not very safe and when I did noticed I was going that fast I did slow down.
Over the course of the trip I made a point of listening/looking for any new problems.....I found none. The resonance problem, the rotor warping problem are both NON-EXISTANT in my ride. No new squeeks or rattles either. I did however hear that clicking/popping sound a few times when i moved the shifter through reverse. I took the vehicle to the dealership to fix that problem 2 months ago when I initially heard it and the sound had been non existant from that day until i went on my trip. This time the sound was only heard a few times...not like previously when EVERYTIME I passed the shifter through reverse or accelerated from a stop. I probably will take it to the dealer so they can look at it again.
I had one small occasional rattle coming from my dash area before the trip and i swear it has disappeared...i don't hear it anymore.
Before the trip, my gas mileage averaged 12.2 mpg (all city driving). I just calculated my mileage from the trip which was approximately 70% highway 30% city and I averaged 16.5 mpg. The best mpg I got on the trip was 19.8 and the worst was 13.1. I didn't keep tabs on exactly how fast i was going (I never use cruise control), but I'd have to say I averaged about 78-80 mph over the entire trip. For several stretches, I had the beast rolling at 90-95 mph :O)
Other than the portion when i had to tow, my cargo consisted of 3 adults (including myself), 1 child and luggage that filled up the area with the 3rd row seat folded down. The ride and handling were excellent, the seats were VERY comfortable, the responsiveness of the engine seems to have gotten even better......I HAVE NOTHING BUT PRAISE FOR THE ARMADA!!!!!!!!!
Oh yeah, over the course of the trip i only saw 4 other Armadas on the road. I saw perhaps 12 Titans.
I truly paid close attention for any "problems" and other than that clicking/popping sound, I can't find anything wrong with my ride. The clicking/popping sound disappeared for 2 months but since I seem to be sporadically hearing it again, I'll have to see if the dealer can take another look at it.
I test drove 5 other Armadas before I test drove the one that I purchased and I've never experienced anything that resembles the resonance problem in any of them. The fact that my gas mileage seems to be increasing is icing on the cake for me with this vehicle.
Come on Nissan, work out the few bugs this vehicle seems to have so that every owner can experience the joy Tigger and I are having :O)
IOW, if you are allowed to sell yours, why cant i?
Most of the dealer/salesperson talk (complaints or kudos) should happen over in Nissan Armada: Prices Paid & Buying Experience but it's normal for folks to find this board first when they start shopping.
We don't have an Armada Problems/Solutions discussion (yet anyway) so those threads wind up being a big part of this general board.
Steve, Host
I don't guess they gave you any details about what the "parts" are, or when they'll be available huh? If you get a chance, would you let us know after talking with the Nissan rep?
Thanks,
Nathan
tidester, host