Andergtr, try disconnecting the battery to reprogram your engine control module. Theoretically it takes a few "run" cycles for the computer to learn the proper idle and other information for your car (not all idle speeds are the same, apparently). It's an adaptive process.
In noticed my idle is pretty low, but my stick shift doesn't stall in the downshifting/stopping process, or in neutral. I could see how low rpm could be a problem.
The other possibility is some foreign matter in one of the vacuum control lines.
The final possibility is a faulty engine control module. You might try having Autozone read the control codes after you have had a stalling incident.
If that fails, ask Toyota for a courtesy free trade in for another. A friend had some persistent problems with a Honda, and by being assertive they gave him a new car (technically they bought back his old car and gave him a new one with no increase in down payment etc.; make sure you don't have to pay the sales tax twice.). This is better for them than a lemon car; it just tracks as a trade in and new car sale.
The nearby Honda dealer has an express oil change lane that accepts other makes. They are pretty careful there although, alas, they don't use torque wrenches to tighten the oil drain plugs.
I found out my Scion xA will accept a Fram "Sure Drain" replacment drain plug for simplified (no future drain bolt removal) oil changes. This is a new drain bolt with a rubber gasket that releases the oil when a drain hose is screwed on by hand. It comes with a hand tightened dust cap. In other words, after the initial installation, there is no need to put the bolt itself in and out of the drain pan. I thought this was designed for DIY's to save time digging the drain bolt out of the oil pan, but actually it's neat idea for avoiding overtightened drain plugs/replacing oil pans.
Anyway the Honda express lane people gladly installed the Fram Sure Drain plug for me. They also let me hang out so I could confirm the oil change. I think watching is always a good thing. They are very careful and it only cost me $15 based on me bringing in my own oil and filter. (I did this to ensure the right oil and filter; when I called my local Toyota dealers about an oil change, several of them told me they use 10-30 oil, which is totally wrong!)
This was my first oil change at 3k. I did depart from the manual by putting in Castrol GTX 5-20 instead of factory spec 5-30 (Walmart was out of Motorcraft semisynthetic 5-20 which is the same price and would have been my first choice). The Castrol satisfies the Ford WSS series test though. This is the test sequence that is run twice as many hours as required for standard SL/GF3 oils.
Although Toyota is still spec'd for 5-30 oil, I want to see how the 5-20 performs. It is much better engineered than SL grade 5-30; I used to be freaked out by the low viscosity rating, but after a lot of study think For and Honda have the right idea. A lot of our "performance" ideas are outmoded, based on 20-50 weight ideas.
As for the viscosity variation, I think since Honda and Acura use it, it should be ok in this Toyota, plus it's not like they changed anything in the engines at Honda - both Honda and Ford recommend 5-20 in their models going back 5-10 years, with a few exceptions. I just think Toyota is being a little conservative.
I will keep you posted on any consumption issues and mileage returns. My last tank was about 35 mpg.
i have to take the xB into the dealer for the first oil change (well, i get three free oil changes, so it's still cheaper than jiffy lube, right?), and so i'll have them check out a few things.
thanks for the advice on the buyback/trade/resale. hopefully it won't come down to that, but if the problem recurs, that's the route i'm pursuing.
...except my local dealers don't really have their act together.
The Berkeley dealer near home has an "express lane" and Saturday service, but actually it's just a different way to write up an oil change - it still goes into the regular service bays. They have Saturday service, but "express lane" service is only available 10-11 in the morning! No kidding, they told me they only run 3 bays on Saturday so they have to limit the express oil changes to that time slot.... The good news is this dealer uses Toyota Motor Oil.
The dealer near work has "express lane" listed but in fact wants you to leave your car all day. They use Pennzoil.
The Oakland Toyota dealer, also open Saturday, told me they use 10w-30 weight oil (maybe the service advisor was wrong? I got past the appointments clerk to the service advisor) and I would have to wait because it's too busy to get quick oil change on Saturday....
The Alameda dealer told me the same thing about being busy on Saturday, and they also use 10w-30 oil!
The Honda dealer which has a dedicated express lane that serves all makes, and lets me watch and make sure things are done right, got me in and out in 20 minutes, no hassle, no appointment.
I will save my free oil changes for the 15k and 30k services, to try to bring down the costs of those services. As for the third free one, I'll see. I thought I would do intermediate changes at convenient Honda shop, and 7,500 mile changes at the dealer, but now I am in a bad mood about dealer "service" again.
All I get from going to the dealer are excessive tire rotations and overpriced "intermediate" services not required by the owners manual. Since the Honda shop can't service the Scion, they don't bug me trying to sell me extra services.
the whole process took about an hour at the dealer, but i was able to kill the hour on my cell phone and doing some things that had been on the backburner.
I drove the xB and xA yesterday. The xB's got a crazy amount of room and its little engine did the job fine even with 3 adult males in the car. I was a bit worried about the top heavy swaying on corners. The salesguy said that a one inch lowering and the strut tower would reduce that. did you mod your xB in any fashion? going from a bimmer to that would require some changes for me to be comfortable that I wouldn't roll.
I also sped off in a xA with a 1 inch lowering, 16s, strut tower and CAI. Wow, that little car was unflappable.
Also heard TRD will release a supercharger for the scions within the year. 2k and it brings the power up to 140-150 hp. Not bad for a 2300-2400 car/wagon.
So did you change your car at all to make it feel tighter or a bit closer to your bimmer?
Oh and one dealer didn't have a manual scion and the other made me wait 40 minutes until the "scion guy" came back. Nice guy but come on, 40 minutes for a test drive?!
The Echo had a comfy ride but was highly susceptible to crosswinds. The Scion xA rides like a rock but is impervious to crosswinds.
The basic geometry of the xA and xB (and the Echo) makes it difficult to combine good handling and comfortable ride - the cars are narrow and tall. The wheelbase on the xB is longer, but not enough to overcome the need for a stiff suspension so the cars feel safe.
I really don't recommend the Echo. And I don't recommend playing with the suspension on the Scion because this car really needs a firm suspension for handling reasons. I would recommend driving a Corolla or Matrix to see how they feel, if you want to stay in the Toyota family. Outside the Toyota family, the Honda Element is viewed by some as a "bigger but less efficient and more costly" xB and my personal "small wagon" favorite is the Focus ZX3, which has a very supple ride and handles great. On sale, it is comparable to the Scion's in price, and although it doesn't have "Japanese" quality, the quality control issues seem to have been resolved.
the only thing i did is tint the front windows so that whole things looks matched. on my BMW, it's got tint on everything, including the windshield, but that's another story. it's illegal as all hell, but it sure looks good!
i take the xB through many canyon roads, such as beverly glen, mulholland, laurel canyon, and malibu canyon, and i have no problem throwing the car into corners. it doesn't handle like my BMW, but it doesn't handle like an SUV, either.
i love the car, but that aggravating power-stalling problem is coming up again. yesterday going to work i warmed up the car and then drove for about 20 minutes from sherman oaks to calabasas. upon hitting the exit (parkway calabasas), i downshifted from fifth to fourth to third, finally going to neutral from 20 mph down.
when i came to a stop, the car, which was in neutral at the time, STALLED again! aaron at the scion main office has been extremely helpful and diligent in trying to find a solution, and i've made now three trips to the dealer, but each time they can find nothing wrong. of course, the dealer keeps the car for one day, trying to recreate the problem, when i have told them time and again that i've had maybe six occurrences of this in about 5600 or 5700 miles. statistically, keeping the car for one day isn't likely to recreate the problem.
it would be one thing if scion or the dealer were to swap out the engine or the powertrain or replace the fuel line or whatever might be causing this problem, but they haven't. so far the response at the dealer has been, "we can't find it." it's gone through the dealer level to the regional level, and now it's a management issue at scion.
i would think that they would be willing to take the car back, swap me out into another one, and then keep this one for study to figure out what's wrong. to say the least, this is frustrating for an otherwise exemplary car.
I'm not th kind of guy that would say I told you so....but.... COASTING is a no-no on manual transmissions...I am no authority on the subject---but I have been driving manual trannies for thirty years and I NEVER NEVER coast...somewhere...in a few owners manuals I read that coasting is bad...something to do with the catalytic converter and other damage that can occur.
Please don't take my word for it...do some research...or better yet...try driving without coasting...I never see a reason to coast when coming to a stop...
I know it's easy to get defensive...but I bet if you experiment (and no damage has already been done) and eliminate the coasting....the problem will magically disappear....just my two cents...
COASTING is a no-no on manual transmissions...I am no authority on the subject---but I have been driving manual trannies for thirty years and I NEVER NEVER coast...somewhere...in a few owners manuals I read that coasting is bad...something to do with the catalytic converter and other damage that can occur.
Closing in on 20 years driving sticks. always coast. If I'm doing 60 and I can see a light in the distance is red - say quarter mile - I'll pull the car out of gear and just allow it do its own thing.
And I've never had a tranny, cat converter or any other problems like that. My biggest problems in cars have come from bad electricals and my old nissan's horrendous brakes (one more reason to coast).
Please don't take my word for it...do some research...
I see this on the boards but I've never seen or heard it from anyone with a clear reason why one would avoid coasting.
or better yet...try driving without coasting...I never see a reason to coast when coming to a stop...
Why use your/waste brakes or keep your engine and tranny pulling when you can let physics win the battle?
I know it's easy to get defensive...but I bet if you experiment (and no damage has already been done) and eliminate the coasting....the problem will magically disappear....just my two cents...
Stalling would have nothing to do with coasting as the engine is simply idling at that point. If idling causes stalling, then there is a problem.
You have to make sure that the tires aren't overinflated. My understanding is that new cars are routinely inflated to about 50 psi to prevent flat spots when being shipped. Salesmen are usually ignorant about this and customers then wonder why the ride is so bumpy. The correct tire pressure for the xB is 29 psi.
The xB does have a firm ride, but I think your experience may have to do with a bad test drive course or overinflated tires. I actually took a tire pressure gauge with me to the dealership before my test drive.
not many of us are an authority, but it seems to me if you have bad brakes, coasting is the last thing you want to do. down shifting and keeping the transmission in gear helps brake the car and saves brakes. coasting is harder on brakes..... my 2 cents.
not many of us are an authority, but it seems to me if you have bad brakes, coasting is the last thing you want to do. down shifting and keeping the transmission in gear helps brake the car and saves brakes. coasting is harder on brakes..... my 2 cents.
Okay, again if you're coasting, how are you using your brakes? Oh, you aren't. That's part of the concept behind coasting - no brakes, no gas, no gears - let gravity slow you down.
Oh and the bad brakes were a Nissan problem, not a result of anyone's driving style. The 91 Stanza is well known for having horrid brakes. CR had a scary black circle on the brakes when I bought the car in 95.
5 cars so far, only one with brake problems - known issue - so again, this goes back to how is coasting bad in a manual?
1st... coasting in gear slows you down faster and will need less braking to stop. coasting out of gear keeps the car moving faster and will need more braking to stop.
2nd... coasting at 20 mph seems like a safety issue. you lose some control of the car by not being able to accelerate if needed. all you can do is steer and brake.
i'm making an observation and not trying to be disagreeable. to each their own...
Sorry to hear about the on-going woes, John. Let Scion know you're active in a public forum on the web, so lots of people know about your case. They should be taking it seriously.
I hate to say this, but you might be better off E-baying that bad boy to someone in regions where it's not yet available, since demand may be high enough to offset the issue you are having.
On another topic, a local dealer advertised that they now have a Scion available for test driving - but you still have to order one. I guess they got one in advance to people could sample them. I found that interesting.
I dumped my VW for an almost identical issue. The dealer couldn't duplicate the missing, stumbling and hesitation, and wouldn't do a darn thing even after the check engine light came on and the car had codes for all 4 cylinders missing, #3 cylinder missing. They essentially told me to wait until the car died and had to be towed in so they had something more tangible to work with.
There is NOTHING WRONG with coasting. That's why its a stick shift. There is NOTHING UNSAFE about it - you can put it back in gear anytime (after all, the driver is always moving between gears anyway - going 35 in 5th there is no practical accelertion until you downshift to third or second).
The problem is the CARS not Andergtr's.
So get them to give you a new one. Write a firm but polite letter to them threatening to invoke the lemon law.
My xA hasn't stalled once. Something is wrong in the set up. I bet the dealer hasn't even put it on the scope. They need to duplicate your driving - for example, lug it in fifth at 35, then put it in neutral, try variations of braking (gravity effect) or just coasting. Also downshift out of fifth into third at 50, then dump it into neutral and brake.
I have been out with "test drivers" and you have to show them how to do it. They aren't that good, themselves; they don't try to duplicate how YOU drive, they drive like an old lady, once around the block, and say its fine.
Quite frankly I think its a "secret" way they deal with customers with low tolerance for this type of Big Stupidity. They passively aggressivly try to make you frustrated enough that you just dump the car. Then some poor person gets in an accident with it (like the Focus with its fuel line clogs) until enough happen to recall or fix it. Or, basically, some poor person just learns to suffer with it.
Personally, this is an enthusiasts board, and being asked to put up with problems like this, without really tyring to fix them, is unacceptable.
and coasting has never been an issue. mind you, we're talking about coming off a freeway offramp going from 70 mph down to 0. i went from fifth to fourth to third and then rode in third down to about 20 mph, and then put the car in neutral and braked to stopping. if i kept the car in gear and pushed the clutch in that final section from 20 mph to zero and kept the car in gear, that would be the same thing as coasting.
the problem is NOT in coasting in the final stretch of my deceleration off the freeway. the problem is in the vehicle.
here's what i've gone through so far...
1. first visit to dealer involved them keeping the car overnight and then checking for issues. none found.
2. second visit to dealer involved them keeping the car overnight again and then checking for issues after i explained to them that this occurred again. nothing found.
3. third visit to dealer involved the service manager at keyes toyota, john, sitting with me in the car as i drove for 30 minutes in all conditions from freeway speeds to city driving to stop-and-go, etc. basically, he concluded that it wasn't user error in my driving style. they kept the car overnight. nothing found.
4. fourth visit to dealer involved scion sending out the regional specialist to look at the car. again, the car was kept overnight. nothing was found.
this will be the fifth time i have contacted scion about this recurring problem. i have suggested to them that they swap out the car and keep this one as a case study. aaron at scion has suggested this to management, as well.
would cause stalling, but after all the trouble diagnosing the problem, have you tried coming to a stop w/o coasting?
I was taught to always have the car in gear when moving. Don't know why or whether it's correct or not. I was also told not to work down through the gears when coming to a stop for the simple reason that brakes are cheaper than clutches and transmissions. That one makes sense to me.
Why not try just leaving it in fourth or fifth and depress the clutch before the engine starts to lug? Worth a shot.
and i've decelerated with the car, downshifting through the gears...and i've pushed the clutch in right before the engine starts to lug. the problem has occurred in all scenarios.
i've driven sticks for 18 years, including an '89 acura integra, a '93 toyota corolla, and, currently, this car and an '02 BMW 325ci. in no other cars has this ever occurred.
i feel like i've done things their way and jumped through their hoops, and i've offered to let them take the car for a month or two, so long as they give me a loaner. that idea was shot down, and each instance the car was kept by the dealer for a single day.
i'm at the point now where the only solution is going to be either to start swapping out parts of the powertrain and the fuel intake line, or to just swap out the car entirely. more one-day inspections are just not going to do it.
i just think i'm past letting them try to prod and poke and theorize what's wrong with my car.
if scion REALLY wants to find out, it is in their best interest to give me a new car and to take mine as a case study. it might give them some insight into a build quality issue that might save them millions of dollars down the line.
or it might just solve a potentially bad PR issue for them.
Look at the Hyundai Elantra GT hatch if you are interested in a low cost alternative. For $15K or less, you can get leather, ABS, traction control, full power, VVTi, trip computer, heated mirrors, sunroof, AM/FM/CD/MP3, 4 wheel discs, side air bags, and a 10 yr. warranty. Hyundai has come a long way in quality and mine has been a gem for the first 40k miles.
Celica is a victim of the trendiness in the sporty segment, what's hot this year looks old the next. What also might have hurt it was putting that hot engine in the Matrix and now even the Corolla.
Scion TC is not replacing the Celica. Celica is not being discontinued. Scion and Celica are targeted at different demographic. Please do not start rumors.
I finally got to sit in some real cars after reading about them for all this time. The local dealership has them, even though they do not go on sale until February. The xA was not bad looking from the outside. It had reasonable front seat room, but the back seat is a joke. The luggage room is very small. Overall, the xA would serve a wonderful 2 seater. The xB did impress me. The exterior is cute. The interior has so much room. The luggage area seems more able to accomodate than the xA. I could see having a xB.
I also sat inside an xB in a dealer showroom. The feeling inside was surprisingly spacious, given the cute, smallish look from outside. The ground clearance looks low.
Unfortunately, the dealer cannot sell the car at this time.
BTW, I am thinking about buying a RAV4. The invoice conatins a ~$500 advertising fee that the dealer added on. What's that? I have to pay for the dealer's advertising cost??
The problem is that the definition of the "invoice price" for this particular dealer includes this bogus fee.
her: "I am selling this car *below* our invoce!" me: "how about $200 below invoice?" her: "it's a deal!" me: "wait, let me add up the invoice price for each option." me: "how come my invoice is $480 less than your invoce?" her: "hmm... Oh, it's the advertising fee that Toyota charged us." .... me: "I wish I could buy your xB, no hagle, no wasting my time."
A newspaper reporter would like to speak with Scion owners. Please respond with your daytime contact information to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than January 5. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com
I owe you an apology. Celica being canceled is not a rumor, it is a fact. You were only sharing information. Sorry to see the Celica go and to have it replaced by a Scion:(
I just got a chance to see the xB at the Washington DC auto show. The car looks pretty cool and has plenty of interior room. I guess my only concern is the apparent lack of horse power. I haven’t had a chance to test drive the car so I don’t thinks if fair for me to pre-judge the vehicle at this time. I am interested in the 5 speed manual transmission. I do have a few questions and would be interested to hear from some current owners.
A) Regarding the AEM Cold Air Induction System:
A1) Has anyone one had a chance to test drive 5spd xB’s with and without the AEM system?
A2) Is the extra “10hp” really noticeable? And if so is it noticeable at all speeds/rpm or just at high rpm/speeds?
A3) Is their any negative impact to emissions, mpg, engine longevity, maintains, etc. associated with a vehicle after the AEM system is installed?
A4) Is the AEM system something a do-it-your self-er can install or are there special tools/issues that only the Toyota service department can handle?
Regarding the Strut Tie Bar Brace:
B1) Has anyone one had a chance to test drive 5spd xB’s with and without the Strut Tie Bar?
B2) How does the Strut Tie Bar increase the car’s performance? To me it just looks like some flashing chrome that you can install in your engine compartment. I guess I just don’t understand how adding this bar increases the overall car performance?
B3) Is their any negative impact to emissions, mpg, engine longevity, maintains, etc. associated with a vehicle after the Strut Tie Bar Brace is installed?
B4) Is the Strut Tie Bar Brace something a do-it-your self-er can install or are there special tools/issues that only the Toyota service department can handle?
Jack, I don't have the cold intake nor the strut tie bar, but find the xB the most fun car I've ever driven. To me the Scion accessories are a waste of $. I find the power to be just fine although it may not be enough for whom power is a priority over everything else. The Xb weighs only about 2500 lbs and 108 hp is plenty, imho.
As a result of reducing chassis flex, the strut tie brace will cause your engine to self-destruct the day after the warranty expires. Additionally, it will cause you to fail emissions tests and only get about 11 mpg.
Some of these kits, the Scion one included, leave the filter element hanging out, unhoused, in the engine compartment. This doesn't seem good to me, especially in rainy season with big puddles. I used to have a '56 chevy that would suck water into its air cleaner. Then it would stall.
Maybe I am too worried. They will increase horsepower, at the price of noise (half the function of the airbox is to "silence" the intake).
It's worth paying Toyota to install it. Then the whole setup is guaranteed under the factory warranty for the run-out of the warranty period on your car (or at least one year, if you do it late in the game). Can't say that about any other cold air intake!
Comments
Andergtr, try disconnecting the battery to reprogram your engine control module. Theoretically it takes a few "run" cycles for the computer to learn the proper idle and other information for your car (not all idle speeds are the same, apparently). It's an adaptive process.
In noticed my idle is pretty low, but my stick shift doesn't stall in the downshifting/stopping process, or in neutral. I could see how low rpm could be a problem.
The other possibility is some foreign matter in one of the vacuum control lines.
The final possibility is a faulty engine control module. You might try having Autozone read the control codes after you have had a stalling incident.
If that fails, ask Toyota for a courtesy free trade in for another. A friend had some persistent problems with a Honda, and by being assertive they gave him a new car (technically they bought back his old car and gave him a new one with no increase in down payment etc.; make sure you don't have to pay the sales tax twice.). This is better for them than a lemon car; it just tracks as a trade in and new car sale.
I found out my Scion xA will accept a Fram "Sure Drain" replacment drain plug for simplified (no future drain bolt removal) oil changes. This is a new drain bolt with a rubber gasket that releases the oil when a drain hose is screwed on by hand. It comes with a hand tightened dust cap. In other words, after the initial installation, there is no need to put the bolt itself in and out of the drain pan. I thought this was designed for DIY's to save time digging the drain bolt out of the oil pan, but actually it's neat idea for avoiding overtightened drain plugs/replacing oil pans.
Anyway the Honda express lane people gladly installed the Fram Sure Drain plug for me. They also let me hang out so I could confirm the oil change. I think watching is always a good thing. They are very careful and it only cost me $15 based on me bringing in my own oil and filter. (I did this to ensure the right oil and filter; when I called my local Toyota dealers about an oil change, several of them told me they use 10-30 oil, which is totally wrong!)
This was my first oil change at 3k. I did depart from the manual by putting in Castrol GTX 5-20 instead of factory spec 5-30 (Walmart was out of Motorcraft semisynthetic 5-20 which is the same price and would have been my first choice). The Castrol satisfies the Ford WSS series test though. This is the test sequence that is run twice as many hours as required for standard SL/GF3 oils.
Although Toyota is still spec'd for 5-30 oil, I want to see how the 5-20 performs. It is much better engineered than SL grade 5-30; I used to be freaked out by the low viscosity rating, but after a lot of study think For and Honda have the right idea. A lot of our "performance" ideas are outmoded, based on 20-50 weight ideas.
As for the viscosity variation, I think since Honda and Acura use it, it should be ok in this Toyota, plus it's not like they changed anything in the engines at Honda - both Honda and Ford recommend 5-20 in their models going back 5-10 years, with a few exceptions. I just think Toyota is being a little conservative.
I will keep you posted on any consumption issues and mileage returns. My last tank was about 35 mpg.
thanks for the advice on the buyback/trade/resale. hopefully it won't come down to that, but if the problem recurs, that's the route i'm pursuing.
Read your warranty and maintenance book!!!
Your first 3 oil changes are free!
The Berkeley dealer near home has an "express lane" and Saturday service, but actually it's just a different way to write up an oil change - it still goes into the regular service bays. They have Saturday service, but "express lane" service is only available 10-11 in the morning! No kidding, they told me they only run 3 bays on Saturday so they have to limit the express oil changes to that time slot.... The good news is this dealer uses Toyota Motor Oil.
The dealer near work has "express lane" listed but in fact wants you to leave your car all day. They use Pennzoil.
The Oakland Toyota dealer, also open Saturday, told me they use 10w-30 weight oil (maybe the service advisor was wrong? I got past the appointments clerk to the service advisor) and I would have to wait because it's too busy to get quick oil change on Saturday....
The Alameda dealer told me the same thing about being busy on Saturday, and they also use 10w-30 oil!
The Honda dealer which has a dedicated express lane that serves all makes, and lets me watch and make sure things are done right, got me in and out in 20 minutes, no hassle, no appointment.
I will save my free oil changes for the 15k and 30k services, to try to bring down the costs of those services. As for the third free one, I'll see. I thought I would do intermediate changes at convenient Honda shop, and 7,500 mile changes at the dealer, but now I am in a bad mood about dealer "service" again.
All I get from going to the dealer are excessive tire rotations and overpriced "intermediate" services not required by the owners manual. Since the Honda shop can't service the Scion, they don't bug me trying to sell me extra services.
(Besides the fact that it's registered as a Toyota- Legally "Scion" does not exist)
Is that it's sold and serviced by the arrogant, even hostile Toyota dealers.
I also sped off in a xA with a 1 inch lowering, 16s, strut tower and CAI. Wow, that little car was unflappable.
Also heard TRD will release a supercharger for the scions within the year. 2k and it brings the power up to 140-150 hp. Not bad for a 2300-2400 car/wagon.
So did you change your car at all to make it feel tighter or a bit closer to your bimmer?
Oh and one dealer didn't have a manual scion and the other made me wait 40 minutes until the "scion guy" came back. Nice guy but come on, 40 minutes for a test drive?!
The Echo had a comfy ride but was highly susceptible to crosswinds. The Scion xA rides like a rock but is impervious to crosswinds.
The basic geometry of the xA and xB (and the Echo) makes it difficult to combine good handling and comfortable ride - the cars are narrow and tall. The wheelbase on the xB is longer, but not enough to overcome the need for a stiff suspension so the cars feel safe.
I really don't recommend the Echo. And I don't recommend playing with the suspension on the Scion because this car really needs a firm suspension for handling reasons. I would recommend driving a Corolla or Matrix to see how they feel, if you want to stay in the Toyota family. Outside the Toyota family, the Honda Element is viewed by some as a "bigger but less efficient and more costly" xB and my personal "small wagon" favorite is the Focus ZX3, which has a very supple ride and handles great. On sale, it is comparable to the Scion's in price, and although it doesn't have "Japanese" quality, the quality control issues seem to have been resolved.
i take the xB through many canyon roads, such as beverly glen, mulholland, laurel canyon, and malibu canyon, and i have no problem throwing the car into corners. it doesn't handle like my BMW, but it doesn't handle like an SUV, either.
when i came to a stop, the car, which was in neutral at the time, STALLED again! aaron at the scion main office has been extremely helpful and diligent in trying to find a solution, and i've made now three trips to the dealer, but each time they can find nothing wrong. of course, the dealer keeps the car for one day, trying to recreate the problem, when i have told them time and again that i've had maybe six occurrences of this in about 5600 or 5700 miles. statistically, keeping the car for one day isn't likely to recreate the problem.
it would be one thing if scion or the dealer were to swap out the engine or the powertrain or replace the fuel line or whatever might be causing this problem, but they haven't. so far the response at the dealer has been, "we can't find it." it's gone through the dealer level to the regional level, and now it's a management issue at scion.
i would think that they would be willing to take the car back, swap me out into another one, and then keep this one for study to figure out what's wrong. to say the least, this is frustrating for an otherwise exemplary car.
COASTING is a no-no on manual transmissions...I am no authority on the subject---but I have been driving manual trannies for thirty years and I NEVER NEVER coast...somewhere...in a few owners manuals I read that coasting is bad...something to do with the catalytic converter and other damage that can occur.
Please don't take my word for it...do some research...or better yet...try driving without coasting...I never see a reason to coast when coming to a stop...
I know it's easy to get defensive...but I bet if you experiment (and no damage has already been done) and eliminate the coasting....the problem will magically disappear....just my two cents...
Closing in on 20 years driving sticks. always coast. If I'm doing 60 and I can see a light in the distance is red - say quarter mile - I'll pull the car out of gear and just allow it do its own thing.
And I've never had a tranny, cat converter or any other problems like that. My biggest problems in cars have come from bad electricals and my old nissan's horrendous brakes (one more reason to coast).
Please don't take my word for it...do some research...
I see this on the boards but I've never seen or heard it from anyone with a clear reason why one would avoid coasting.
or better yet...try driving without coasting...I never see a reason to coast when coming to a stop...
Why use your/waste brakes or keep your engine and tranny pulling when you can let physics win the battle?
I know it's easy to get defensive...but I bet if you experiment (and no damage has already been done) and eliminate the coasting....the problem will magically disappear....just my two cents...
Stalling would have nothing to do with coasting as the engine is simply idling at that point. If idling causes stalling, then there is a problem.
The xB does have a firm ride, but I think your experience may have to do with a bad test drive course or overinflated tires. I actually took a tire pressure gauge with me to the dealership before my test drive.
Okay, again if you're coasting, how are you using your brakes? Oh, you aren't. That's part of the concept behind coasting - no brakes, no gas, no gears - let gravity slow you down.
Oh and the bad brakes were a Nissan problem, not a result of anyone's driving style. The 91 Stanza is well known for having horrid brakes. CR had a scary black circle on the brakes when I bought the car in 95.
5 cars so far, only one with brake problems - known issue - so again, this goes back to how is coasting bad in a manual?
2nd... coasting at 20 mph seems like a safety issue. you lose some control of the car by not being able to accelerate if needed. all you can do is steer and brake.
i'm making an observation and not trying to be disagreeable. to each their own...
I hate to say this, but you might be better off E-baying that bad boy to someone in regions where it's not yet available, since demand may be high enough to offset the issue you are having.
On another topic, a local dealer advertised that they now have a Scion available for test driving - but you still have to order one. I guess they got one in advance to people could sample them. I found that interesting.
-juice
There is NOTHING WRONG with coasting. That's why its a stick shift. There is NOTHING UNSAFE about it - you can put it back in gear anytime (after all, the driver is always moving between gears anyway - going 35 in 5th there is no practical accelertion until you downshift to third or second).
The problem is the CARS not Andergtr's.
So get them to give you a new one. Write a firm but polite letter to them threatening to invoke the lemon law.
My xA hasn't stalled once. Something is wrong in the set up. I bet the dealer hasn't even put it on the scope. They need to duplicate your driving - for example, lug it in fifth at 35, then put it in neutral, try variations of braking (gravity effect) or just coasting. Also downshift out of fifth into third at 50, then dump it into neutral and brake.
I have been out with "test drivers" and you have to show them how to do it. They aren't that good, themselves; they don't try to duplicate how YOU drive, they drive like an old lady, once around the block, and say its fine.
Quite frankly I think its a "secret" way they deal with customers with low tolerance for this type of Big Stupidity. They passively aggressivly try to make you frustrated enough that you just dump the car. Then some poor person gets in an accident with it (like the Focus with its fuel line clogs) until enough happen to recall or fix it. Or, basically, some poor person just learns to suffer with it.
Personally, this is an enthusiasts board, and being asked to put up with problems like this, without really tyring to fix them, is unacceptable.
Another idea - buy a cheap ODB2 scanner ($110 or so) and plug that in to gather more data. You can use it later for other stuff, even other cars.
-juice
the problem is NOT in coasting in the final stretch of my deceleration off the freeway. the problem is in the vehicle.
here's what i've gone through so far...
1. first visit to dealer involved them keeping the car overnight and then checking for issues. none found.
2. second visit to dealer involved them keeping the car overnight again and then checking for issues after i explained to them that this occurred again. nothing found.
3. third visit to dealer involved the service manager at keyes toyota, john, sitting with me in the car as i drove for 30 minutes in all conditions from freeway speeds to city driving to stop-and-go, etc. basically, he concluded that it wasn't user error in my driving style. they kept the car overnight. nothing found.
4. fourth visit to dealer involved scion sending out the regional specialist to look at the car. again, the car was kept overnight. nothing was found.
this will be the fifth time i have contacted scion about this recurring problem. i have suggested to them that they swap out the car and keep this one as a case study. aaron at scion has suggested this to management, as well.
we'll see what happens.
Start quoting that and it's case closed.
I was taught to always have the car in gear when moving. Don't know why or whether it's correct or not. I was also told not to work down through the gears when coming to a stop for the simple reason that brakes are cheaper than clutches and transmissions. That one makes sense to me.
Why not try just leaving it in fourth or fifth and depress the clutch before the engine starts to lug? Worth a shot.
i've driven sticks for 18 years, including an '89 acura integra, a '93 toyota corolla, and, currently, this car and an '02 BMW 325ci. in no other cars has this ever occurred.
i feel like i've done things their way and jumped through their hoops, and i've offered to let them take the car for a month or two, so long as they give me a loaner. that idea was shot down, and each instance the car was kept by the dealer for a single day.
i'm at the point now where the only solution is going to be either to start swapping out parts of the powertrain and the fuel intake line, or to just swap out the car entirely. more one-day inspections are just not going to do it.
I read my owners manual and nowhere can I find the section that says: "If you let your new Scion Xb idle, it might stall"
So, all this well intentioned advice musat be quite annoying.
Again, start quoting the Lemon law and let us know what they say.
http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/
if scion REALLY wants to find out, it is in their best interest to give me a new car and to take mine as a case study. it might give them some insight into a build quality issue that might save them millions of dollars down the line.
or it might just solve a potentially bad PR issue for them.
-juice
Celica is a victim of the trendiness in the sporty segment, what's hot this year looks old the next. What also might have hurt it was putting that hot engine in the Matrix and now even the Corolla.
Don't kill it, though.
-juice
: )
Mackabee
Please do not start rumors.
Unfortunately, the dealer cannot sell the car at this time.
BTW, I am thinking about buying a RAV4. The invoice conatins a ~$500 advertising fee that the dealer added on. What's that? I have to pay for the dealer's advertising cost??
Fees like that are designed only to separate the weak (I just gotta have it!) from their money.
You can make the fee disappear with one word: No.
her: "I am selling this car *below* our invoce!"
me: "how about $200 below invoice?"
her: "it's a deal!"
me: "wait, let me add up the invoice price for each option."
me: "how come my invoice is $480 less than your invoce?"
her: "hmm... Oh, it's the advertising fee that Toyota charged us."
....
me: "I wish I could buy your xB, no hagle, no wasting my time."
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
I just got a chance to see the xB at the Washington DC auto show. The car looks pretty cool and has plenty of interior room. I guess my only concern is the apparent lack of horse power. I haven’t had a chance to test drive the car so I don’t thinks if fair for me to pre-judge the vehicle at this time. I am interested in the 5 speed manual transmission. I do have a few questions and would be interested to hear from some current owners.
A) Regarding the AEM Cold Air Induction System:
A1) Has anyone one had a chance to test drive 5spd xB’s with and without the AEM system?
A2) Is the extra “10hp” really noticeable? And if so is it noticeable at all speeds/rpm or just at high rpm/speeds?
A3) Is their any negative impact to emissions, mpg, engine longevity, maintains, etc. associated with a vehicle after the AEM system is installed?
A4) Is the AEM system something a do-it-your self-er can install or are there special tools/issues that only the Toyota service department can handle?
B1) Has anyone one had a chance to test drive 5spd xB’s with and without the Strut Tie Bar?
B2) How does the Strut Tie Bar increase the car’s performance? To me it just looks like some flashing chrome that you can install in your engine compartment. I guess I just don’t understand how adding this bar increases the overall car performance?
B3) Is their any negative impact to emissions, mpg, engine longevity, maintains, etc. associated with a vehicle after the Strut Tie Bar Brace is installed?
B4) Is the Strut Tie Bar Brace something a do-it-your self-er can install or are there special tools/issues that only the Toyota service department can handle?
Thanks in advance!
Jack
Additionally, it will cause you to fail emissions tests and only get about 11 mpg.
-juice
Maybe I am too worried. They will increase horsepower, at the price of noise (half the function of the airbox is to "silence" the intake).
It's worth paying Toyota to install it. Then the whole setup is guaranteed under the factory warranty for the run-out of the warranty period on your car (or at least one year, if you do it late in the game). Can't say that about any other cold air intake!