vince8,it is quite apparent that your opinion is that Ford is a good product and that you think Nissan leaves alot to be desired.What I want to know is what does your last post have to do with 1)The topic of this board;2)The current discussions.They were on towing and why people chose their vehicles. It sure seems like a waste of time to respond to you because you say the same things and we respond and it is like talking to a wall.There is no discussion or communication.Why is that?
vince, Did you check out the torque curve for the 3.3L I found? I posted it on the web you'll have to download it, go to my past posts follow the link and download the 'article pg. 3.1' thats the one with the torque curve on it. the others are the rest of the article, I think that fordsporttrac wanted it. Have you found a torque curve for the 160hp 4.0L yet? Research those Ford sales figures yet?
First off, I am not an angry person, maybe a little irritated at what I consider a domestic manufacturer bashing forum. I decided to vent a little at a group that for quite a while have run off anyone but vince8 and fordsporttrac who had an opinion other than Nissan rules. You brag about running vince8 out of another forum. You must be so proud. Maybe you guys don't realize how you come across to the rest of the world. If so, the pity. A friend of mine is so into the fun of debate that he loses his perspective. I am not accusing everyone, just a few who have turn this into a private club.
malimali:let me get this straight, you question my driving qualifications and get upset when I question your salesmen qualifications. And then when I give you my qualifications, you make a smart [non-permissible content removed] remark. FYI I am not a profesional trucker. I have had a few jobs that required specialized driving skills which I possess.
keanac: You misinterpret my statements. The vehicle may be able to pull the weight, but there are other factors involved. You do not even know what type of trailer brakes you have, but trust a mechanic to keep them perfect. The mechanic is not going to hook the trailer up for you and it must be done right for the most effective braking. When your trailer is hooked up, is the frame of the trailer level? This is important for proper braking. I see too many rigs on the road with the trailer tongue too high or low. How fast are you going down the road? Does you trailer have a posted speed limit? Most do and it can be as low a 45 mph. As for the weights, every vehicle handles loads differently. The factors that the manufacturers use to rate vehicles for towing has little to do with the real world. I tested the current body F150 when they first came out. The 4.6 was suppose to replace the 302(5.0). I found that it was not suitable for good towing. The 5.4, on the other hand would make a great towing engine. The 4.6 is a good engine, but not for heavy towing. I would also never tow with any Jeep product because of the high failure rate of their brakes. Try testing your rig by doing some test panic stops over 20 MPH. I suggest that you work up to it. Now try it with your trailer brakes disconnected. This can happen more often than you would care to think about. Finally, think about the fools out there on the road. You may be the most careful driver in the world, but it is an insane world. We cannot prepare for everything, but we can give ourselves a margin of safety, especially if we are responsible for the transportation of the ones we love.
It's ashame that you and I can't communicate. Because eventhough I'm a salesman I do have quite a bit of expeirence towing boats. Not just towing around the lot, but across state driving. Now I will state this again as I have in the past, my towing is in good ol Florida, where the closest thing to a mountain we have is a bridge.:) The reason I have to know about trailering(unlike most dealers in FL) 100% of our sales leave on a trailer or in the bed of truck(our dealership is landlocked). I take great precautions to what trailer goes under each boat, I treat each sale as though I were towing it. It's funny too because I've put a better or the right trailer under a boat, it's cost me many sales, the competing dealer was sticking this trailer that's wheels were under the hull, rather than outside, which I do- it trailers much better. I've seen what you re talking about with careles or nonexperienced drivers. I've also seen the results of what happens when a full size Tahoe rolls down I-10 at 60mph, luckily my customer and his family walked away, or when a 30ft Scarab's tripple axle trailer blows a tire and the whole trailer twists because the customer panics. These aren't my only experiences just the most recent ones and only examples. For the record, you can check all of my posts and nowhere will you find me bashing Ford's products. I am by no means a die hard Nissan fan and after my '82 200sx bent valves I never thought I would ever own anothe Nissan product, but here I am with their p/u 14 yrs later. You should read some of the older posts and you see that I considered the 250SD still my favorite and after my lease (unless chevy produces a decent diesel)it will be my next truck. The thing I might question is when someone uses sales figures as a sole indicator for quality. Vince8 has a problem with defining what the numbers include.
"In my opinion - Nissans whole line of vehicles, although maybe not a flashy, or well styled as other companies, are quality vehicles. The prices are reasonable for the usually outstanding quality that you get." My sentiments exactly. I'm quite happy with my '98 Frontier regular cab. A basic truck, but it gets the job done. Only one tiny problem so far (a bad hose clamp, fixed under warranty). I also have a '90 Mercury (Ford) Sable ('nuff said.) Don't think I'll be going back to another Ford product soon!
So far once answer to your question - Nissan Canada thinks you are wrong! They say that they stand behind the 5000lb rating 150% - As long as the trailer being towed has brakes and a proper weight distribution; approx. 10% tonque weight. I specifically asked if it was dangerous to myself, or others if i pulled for long distances, they again said NO! They know I have a CC so they aren't trying to sell me one. So far, I haven't proved your theory/opinion. I will keep digging; and answer the rest of your questions.
As I said before; no, I don't know what kind of trailer brakes I have. They plug in with a round 7-prong plug, and I have a little black box with a sliding knob and a red light in my truck. All I do need to know, is that the BEST trailer shop in Sudbury installed them, they service them, and yes I do trust them. steve234 one thing I haved learned in life - you can't be an expert on everything - sometimes you have to pay others for their expertise! I do. I do not think that I am be careless with my life or others, I would hazard a guess and say that many others trust their vehicles to mechanics!
As for this being a Nissan bashing Ford - Import bashing domestic forum; I disagree! There are a lot less Nissan owners out there. Ford owners have just as much opportunity to say their piece. Why they do or don't is up for debate. But because many of us Nissan owners like our products, and might have had bad experiences with Fords, doesn't make us a__holes. Maybe the fact that many Nissan owners have had Fords and other domestics, whereas many Ford owners have had nothing but; makes a difference. Most Nissan owners I know personally have bought Nissans because of domestic vehicle problems.
If you don't want to participate because many people in this discussion dish Ford, that is your perogitive. I personally think maybe you should keep adding your 2 cents because I like to hear it, and other people probably like to to.
As to your final questions on trailer speed, and Manufacturer's not knowing the real world, and so forth; I really don't think i should respond. I am not a complete moron, and Ihave been towing a long time and with care. Also, I should think I would trust the vehicle manufacturer and engineers a little more than an unknown professional driver. Sorry.
With regard to your comment about stating facts - it would be much more valuable for you to disprove - in other words go find info to the contrary - rather than have someone use a bunch of links and proof for evrry point they make - that gets very cumbersome and we are not all lawyers and professors. Even then, it is up to lawyers to disprove what other lawyers say are facts. You spend a lot of time cutting down other peoples comments by asking them to prove it..I ask you to disprove what they say.. That is more effective and less negative. It tends to grate on people when someone is always telling poeple to prove whatever thay say, whenever.
As for sales does not equal quality...I stand by what I say. In math, when someone puts an equal sign between to parts...it must always equal or the statement is not true..would you like me to find a link to that statement and post it? (please take that last comment as a joke). It is very possible that sometimes sales does equal quality but that is by no means the norm.
as for your last two paragraphs, I don't think so. There are many, many products that are far superior in every way, but poor financing, marketing, business decisions, not to mention competitors sometimes underhanded and monopolistic moves cause products to fail. An example, Chrysler has a car called a Neon..My 71 year old babysitter had many problems with hers (see earlier post) and just weeks ago she bought another one to replace it! Bad product but the customer bought anyways.. One of the things the salesman told her was that Chrysler has fixed those problems..How many times have poeple been told that and believe it? She has bought Chrysler all her life and isn't going to change even if the product she has been buying isn't good. "If you build it they will come." is a quote from a movie about a dream; and that is what that statement is; a dream. I stand by that 100% and even though you might want proof, any good business school prof will tell you the same thing!
Fordsporttrac; What the heck are you talking about? How do you get disinformantion from third party sources with the sources identified? I said JD power IQ awards, 98-99, if you doubt that, you look it up and prove me wrong, I told you where I got it, if you want a link on the sales figures, the link isn't working right, but go to autochannel.com and look at the archives for may 3-00. And I am sorry, I was wrong, it was not up 56% it was up 63.9%! If you have to have some sort of figure, it was 9,144. And I disagree that you cannot compare percentages, that is the only way to get an accurate picture of performances, with your logic, it doesn't matter that my $100 stock was up 10%, just that it was up $10, you see no difference between that and a $10 stock going up $10??? ANd what could you possibly construe as an opinion? If you think that it is an opinion that these publications said all of this, then you need to take it up with them, not me, I don't know where they archive JD power IQ awards and CR you can't get into without being a member, so what do you want? If you want me to do more, you had better have a pretty good offer for me, otherwise, prove me wrong!
I am proud to say I have recognized that Ford finally builds safe,reliable,quality vehicles. I have had the opportunity recently to drive in a rented Ford Explorer while my friends Nissan Pathfinder was being repaired after a collision. I was so impressed with the Explorer that I am considering buying one. ANd my friend said he wanted to keep the Explorer and let the dealer keep the Pathfinder! I should add that I own a 1987 Ford Crown Victoria that runs excellent and has NEVER burned a hole in my wallet in the 4 years I've owned it. The most expensive repair I had was brakes at 400.00. My 1993 Isuzu Rodeo has cost me over 4000.00 in repairs in the past year that I've owned it. I think you should all consider Ford Products before making your purchases, sure every single car they build isn't 100% perfect, but they have come A LONG WAY!!
First off I'm not hiding nor in anyway did you shut me down!! www.crashtest.com, www.msn.carpoint.com, and JD powers..I gave you link after link to show you the Frontier rates poorly in crash test ratings, your response was " well I saw a Frontier get hit by a Semi and the people survived" Give me a break@! Stats are stats, especially when they come from 3 different sources. I also showed you the Ranger has a better performance rating, interior quality, and is ONE point below the Nissan in reliability ratings at Edmunds and at Carpoint... You continually dismiss everything I bring into a debate. Nissan sales are up slightly, but where can you go when you hit rock bottom???... And a very good point 56% from what?? I also noticed tonight Nissan is offering some serious incentives to buy Frontiers 3.9% along with cash back! You give Ford a bad time about doing this... Hmmm....
I'm sorry Vince, I must have misinterpreted the fact that you stopped showing up when you refused to answer the responses people made to your riduculous arguments and refused to answer up to the misinformation you put up and just dissappeared, I am sorry I so unjustly assumed you could not handle the heat and were hiding out like you usually do, that was a big leap on my part, I sincerely and whole hearted apologize for unjustly characterizing you. On the crash tests, you somehow forgot that I brought up the fact that there was no difference in real world injury rates between the frontier and ranger and that the tests were not conducted on 2000 frontiers after improvements have been made, also the crew cab was not shown there either. Yes stats are stats and they show no more injuries in the frontier than the ranger. SO you claim that the rager is safer, but have nothing to say about the fact that there is no difference in real world injuries between the two and you say the ranger is safer even though it takes 100feet longer to stop than the frontier, have you had time to research this yet, I notice you are still afraid to read the article even though I have offered to fax it to you numerous times. I don't dismiss what you bring up, I challenge it, and present another view, you ought to try it sometime. I don't remember criticizing the ranger for incentives, and the frontier has had a rebate for awhile now, so the point is...? and what do you mena rock bottom? The frontier still outsells, the S-10, sonoma, and B series which according to Vince logic means that the frontier has to be better than all of those right? but wait a minute isn't the mazda and the ford the same truck? So let's see, the ranger is better than the frontier, and the frontier is better than the mazda, seems perfectly logical to me.
You haven't answered my question about your two Fords. How many times have you brought them in for service/repair (except for oil changes) no matter how minor?
Vince, Have you d/l the torque curve on the 3.3L. I posted it for you. This post challanges you because you said when the 'joke' 3.3L reaches 2800rpm and is at its peak torque it has nowhere to go but down. While the 4.0L is still climbing. Not true, in fact the 3.3L actually holds it's torque alot longer giving the operator a longer rpm range of max torque. So tell me if you looked at it or even saw the numbers that I posted. This is one of YOUR points not mine. I didn't post the article for any other reason except for the torque curve, the one you couldn't find. A response would be good since I posted this 3-4 days ago, no response on this matter will tell me that you saw it and admit that you were mistaken because you made those earlier comments without researching the torque curve of the engine.
Maybe I didn't explain my self well enough. I thought I did but ok one more shot.
keanec I'm not asking you to prove everything just if you are making a statement that is an opinion use IMHO. If you are stating a fact provide a link or a reference. I don't think we should research your facts we're not stating them. A bunch of the posts by Vince include a link but all I here from you is opinion stated as if it was fact.
If you seriously think "sales does equal quality but that is by no means the norm". Why have you stated that the CC is better quality than the Ford. Why have you stated over and over that you will not buy a Ford. Why did you buy your CC? I seem to remmeber you saying the Nissan CC is a better vehicle, better company than the Ford/ST. It sounds to me that you like the Nissan experiance and are disapointed with Ford. Sorry but I still feel that Quality = Sales and that is more the norm. There are always exceptions but the norm is Quality = Sales.
cncman If anyone thinks this compairison can be done by percentages they are wrong. To use the stock example. Your $100 stock goes up 63.9% and my $10,000 goes up %10. I guess you must have done better because your stock went up 63.9%???????
And I'm not saying you made up anything but you state JD said this and Consumer said that. Well your reading it some where so you must already have it. Mahamai scaned and posted his article. Why don't you???????
fordsporttrac, your knowledge of finance seems to be as weak as your knowledge of trucks, using your example, if you put the same $ amount in both stocks, lets say $10,000, your preference would be for the return of $1,000 than the return of $6,390??? Well, I would love to be your broker. Let's put it another way for you, let's say ranger usually sells 300,000 units a year, frontier 100,000. If the ranger sales increase 3% that is an extra 9,000 units a year, (agreed very oversimplified, but the idea works) frontier sales increase 63.9% that is an extra 63,900 units a year! And you still have to wonder about which has a better performance??? I got the resale quote by CR from the current buyers guide on the newstand, I paged through it, did not buy it, go to your library or buy it, the JD power award you can see in various magazine ads throughout that year, I don't know where they keep archived JD power awards. I am not going to spend my money and free time to prove a common knowledge point if you don't agree with common knowledge facts, do the work yourself.
You believe quality = sales for the most part, well that would hold true wherever you go right? They sell more yugos in yugoslavia than they do fords, so you agree that a yugo is better quality than a ford? And you also have to agree that the frontier is better quality than the mazda, well you can't have it both ways, which do you choose?
Sorry I just can't agree with your points. I will not accept that quality = sales. There are way too many different variables some of which have been mentioned in the last couple of posts. There are many more than that. What I would like you to do is follow your own lead and go find proof that quality = sales is the norm. Some suggestions: e-mail a couple of business professors,; look in some business & marketing magazine; maybe try to find a copuple of case studies..Did you do a case study on this at your Business course? If you have give us a link... otherwise, unless someone else proves your point for you, state is your humble opinion. By the way I think I said Sales could equal quality not Sales does equal quality. If I said "does" that was a typo. And I wonder who sells more vehicles in Japan Nissan or Ford? Ford must have the worst quality then.
As to your point that % change can't be a good indicator. I agree. For example; it is alot easier to have a 100% increase if you only sold 1 car last year than if you had sold 1000. It is nice to no what base you are working from. But don't use investing as an example because that is a very poor example and wrong. You measure return almost strictly on percentages; whether you invest $100 or $1000.
"cncman If anyone thinks this compairison can be done by percentages they are wrong. To use the stock example. Your $100 stock goes up 63.9% and my $10,000 goes up %10. I guess you must have done better because your stock went up 63.9%???????" Here is another opinion that is acutally wrong and can be proven wrong. The results for either scenerio are exactly the same!! The person who invested $100 did equally as well as the person who invested $10,000! That is FACT!!! Please feel free to ask any financial person. Bye the way - the person who invested $10,000 does have more money!
With regards to the Frontier increase versus the Ranger increase your point could go either way. Ford has many more (I think, I don't have facts) dealerships and a much bigger marketing budget than Nissan. Therefore it is just as hard for Nissan to get a 50% increase as Ford. A good way to test this theory is for someone to try and indentify how many dealerships Ford has and Nissan and then look at the increase/dealership. Just a thought.
AS for my opinions, I will try and make sure that I put the much needed IMHO in front of everything I say that is not a stated fact. I will continue to quote sources and say things without that as long as i state where I heard it, saw it, or found it.
keanec; on the percentages point you are saying that there is no difference in a company that usually sells 50,000 units a month increasing 3,000 units one month and another that usually sells 5,000 a month and went up 3,000? that is absolutely ridiculous. You really mean to say that they are both doing equally as well or am I misinterpreting what you say? When there is a difference in base valuation the only fair way to compare performance is on a percentage basis, basically, what are they doing now vs what they have historically done expressed as a relative number. If you look at a trade publication like automotive news you can see an article like the one I read last month, they always quote sales increases, decreases and production increases and decreases as percentages, are you saying that the entire automotive community and press are completely wrong in doing this? Anyway, that's how I look at it, maybe this is getting a little out of hand, oops, I am sorry, I meant IMHO maybe this is getting a little out of hand. please explain how either investor did equally well, I was a registered representative and have no idea what you are getting at.
I am curious,hasn't this all been discussed before? Why are we hashing over the same subjects again?vince hasn't said anything new,just the same old things and gets the same reaction.Why try and convince him?He has his Ranger and that is good enough for him.Heck,he might be one of the people who could only get financed at Ford,and that is why he bought it. I can see where the debate that quality equals sales is valid.It does happen that a quality product will generate better sales,but,for some who are saying this may be an absolute or close to,you have to consider the inverse. Sales equals quality.That is not always true and there are many examples of sales actually making the quality go down. The sales figures that has been flying around about Ford I am sure are true,but I have to ask which sales figures are these?Are these total sales as they seem to be?If so,then it would be an unfair comparison to Nissan and any other foreign manufacturer.I would like to see the figures for consumer sales.Take out the governement sales,fleet sales,etc.Just sales to the regular guy on the street looking for a truck.That at least puts it on a level playing field.If you cannot provide those,then what is the use to debate it? The percentages for Ford would be inflated over Nissan.At least the Nissan figures are based on the average consumer going in and purchasing the vehicle.Ford,on the other hand may have sold 25,000 Rangers to the Federal government this month.
My credit rating is AAA, along with, I paid cash for my Ranger.. I notice you don't mention how Nissan financing and rebates are overflowing... I wonder if Renault is subsidising these? Nissan took one huge hit this year also again in the financial area, I notice you fail to mention.. cncman... Anyone, can go an look for themselves and see the Ranger outscores the Frontier in crash rattings. www.crashtest.com, and www.carpoint.man.com. They can also see the Ranger outperforms the Frontier at Edmunds and is only 1 point behind in reliability.. and see that the Ranger outdoes the Frontier in QUALITY at JD powers. What else do you want?? As far as Torque the Ranger reaches its 225ft/lbs of torque at 2750rpms, vs the 200ft/lbs of Torque the Frontier reaches as 2800RPMS, Hmmm.... doesn't take a math genius to figure out which engine would be better for towing.... After the Frontier reaches its 200ft/lbs where does the extra torque come in? The 3.3 is weak and just live with your choice. The supercharger Nissan is putting on the 3.3 will give Nissan the ability to match NORMALLY aspirated engines of Ford/Toyota/GM.. Its a bandaid... I am reading however the new 3.5 is going to make it into the Frontier in about 2-3 years...
Vince, please explain nissan's financing and rebates are overflowing? Nissan has cut incentives over 50% in the last year and a half, and sales are still reaching record levels, so what exactly is your point, and yes vince we have all seen the data you posted, as this seems to be the only info you have, blah, blah, blah, what about the responses I have made concerning the data you posted? no response? I think gooba has the right idea, vince just puts up the same old junk, and won't respond to the rebuttal, well, you've made your points on the issues and I have made mine.
vince,as for all the things you just posted,and it means........?All I am going to comment on is the wisdom of paying cash for your truck.Not a smart move on your part. When i bought my CC I took the cash for the truck and invested it and now the bank makes my payments for me and the leftover interset payments add to the account.I did not lose my asset and I am in fact building it.
On the otherhand, I started investing when I was 19, I am now 35. I own stocks like Merck, Intel, Microsoft, J&J, McDonalds, Pfizer, GE, Emerson, Oracle and Cisco to name a few. To make this short, I will retire between 50-55 very nicely and very comfortably. If I wanted to I could probably retire at 45-50...I wish there were some way I can prove this to you.. I have plenty of stock and investments to more than make up anything I may have lost. I know I am going to hear all kinds of smart remarks and people not believing me, but I know where I sit and that is what counts.. Cncman, why doesn't the Frontier even show up on the top 25 if sales are skyrocketing? The only auto that is holding Nissan afloat are the Xterra and the Maxima. The Xterra is a fad and fads end. The Max on the other hand is a fine auto. I am tired of arguing with brick walls. Anything I post or link is immediatly dismissed anyway. Basic fact is the Ranger is better in crashtests, and performance, and sits ONE point below the Frontier in reliability. JD powers rates the Ranger ABOVE the Frontier in quality. FACT.
Congratulations vince,I hope you are able to retire when you want,but,that still does not address the original premise.Your decision to pay cash for your truck means you lost that capital asset.You are no longer making anything from it.You also lost an offset on your taxes.Again,I question the wisdom of your paying cash,which I did earlier and you came up with your story insted of addressing the question. All the other stuff about fads,JD Powers,etc,means........?Not relevant,nor is it worth discussion over again.
Comments
It sure seems like a waste of time to respond to you because you say the same things and we respond and it is like talking to a wall.There is no discussion or communication.Why is that?
Did you check out the torque curve for the 3.3L I found? I posted it on the web you'll have to download it, go to my past posts follow the link and download the 'article pg. 3.1' thats the one with the torque curve on it. the others are the rest of the article, I think that fordsporttrac wanted it. Have you found a torque curve for the 160hp 4.0L yet?
Research those Ford sales figures yet?
malimali:let me get this straight, you question my driving qualifications and get upset when I question your salesmen qualifications. And then when I give you my qualifications, you make a smart [non-permissible content removed] remark. FYI I am not a profesional trucker. I have had a few jobs that required specialized driving skills which I possess.
keanac: You misinterpret my statements. The vehicle may be able to pull the weight, but there are other factors involved. You do not even know what type of trailer brakes you have, but trust a mechanic to keep them perfect. The mechanic is not going to hook the trailer up for you and it must be done right for the most effective braking. When your trailer is hooked up, is the frame of the trailer level? This is important for proper braking. I see too many rigs on the road with the trailer tongue too high or low. How fast are you going down the road? Does you trailer have a posted speed limit? Most do and it can be as low a 45 mph. As for the weights, every vehicle handles loads differently. The factors that the manufacturers use to rate vehicles for towing has little to do with the real world. I tested the current body F150 when they first came out. The 4.6 was suppose to replace the 302(5.0). I found that it was not suitable for good towing. The 5.4, on the other hand would make a great towing engine. The 4.6 is a good engine, but not for heavy towing. I would also never tow with any Jeep product because of the high failure rate of their brakes. Try testing your rig by doing some test panic stops over 20 MPH. I suggest that you work up to it. Now try it with your trailer brakes disconnected. This can happen more often than you would care to think about. Finally, think about the fools out there on the road. You may be the most careful driver in the world, but it is an insane world. We cannot prepare for everything, but we can give ourselves a margin of safety, especially if we are responsible for the transportation of the ones we love.
although maybe not a flashy, or well styled as
other companies, are quality vehicles. The prices
are reasonable for the usually outstanding quality that you get."
My sentiments exactly. I'm quite happy with my '98 Frontier regular cab. A basic truck, but it gets the job done. Only one tiny problem so far (a bad hose clamp, fixed under warranty). I also have a '90 Mercury (Ford) Sable ('nuff said.) Don't think I'll be going back to another Ford product soon!
As I said before; no, I don't know what kind of trailer brakes I have. They plug in with a round 7-prong plug, and I have a little black box with a sliding knob and a red light in my truck. All I do need to know, is that the BEST trailer shop in Sudbury installed them, they service them, and yes I do trust them. steve234 one thing I haved learned in life - you can't be an expert on everything - sometimes you have to pay others for their expertise! I do. I do not think that I am be careless with my life or others, I would hazard a guess and say that many others trust their vehicles to mechanics!
As for this being a Nissan bashing Ford - Import bashing domestic forum; I disagree! There are a lot less Nissan owners out there. Ford owners have just as much opportunity to say their piece. Why they do or don't is up for debate. But because many of us Nissan owners like our products, and might have had bad experiences with Fords, doesn't make us a__holes. Maybe the fact that many Nissan owners have had Fords and other domestics, whereas many Ford owners have had nothing but; makes a difference. Most Nissan owners I know personally have bought Nissans because of domestic vehicle problems.
If you don't want to participate because many people in this discussion dish Ford, that is your perogitive. I personally think maybe you should keep adding your 2 cents because I like to hear it, and other people probably like to to.
As to your final questions on trailer speed, and Manufacturer's not knowing the real world, and so forth; I really don't think i should respond. I am not a complete moron, and Ihave been towing a long time and with care. Also, I should think I would trust the vehicle manufacturer and engineers a little more than an unknown professional driver. Sorry.
As for sales does not equal quality...I stand by what I say. In math, when someone puts an equal sign between to parts...it must always equal or the statement is not true..would you like me to find a link to that statement and post it? (please take that last comment as a joke). It is very possible that sometimes sales does equal quality but that is by no means the norm.
as for your last two paragraphs, I don't think so. There are many, many products that are far superior in every way, but poor financing, marketing, business decisions, not to mention competitors sometimes underhanded and monopolistic moves cause products to fail. An example, Chrysler has a car called a Neon..My 71 year old babysitter had many problems with hers (see earlier post) and just weeks ago she bought another one to replace it! Bad product but the customer bought anyways.. One of the things the salesman told her was that Chrysler has fixed those problems..How many times have poeple been told that and believe it? She has bought Chrysler all her life and isn't going to change even if the product she has been buying isn't good.
"If you build it they will come." is a quote from a movie about a dream; and that is what that statement is; a dream. I stand by that 100% and even though you might want proof, any good business school prof will tell you the same thing!
What the heck are you talking about? How do you get disinformantion from third party sources with the sources identified? I said JD power IQ awards,
98-99, if you doubt that, you look it up and prove me wrong, I told you where I got it, if you want a link on the sales figures, the link isn't working right, but go to autochannel.com and look at the archives for may 3-00. And I am sorry, I was wrong, it was not up 56% it was up 63.9%! If you have to have some sort of figure, it was 9,144. And I disagree that you cannot compare percentages, that is the only way to get an accurate picture of performances, with your logic,
it doesn't matter that my $100 stock was up 10%, just that it was up $10, you see no difference between that and a $10 stock going up $10???
ANd what could you possibly construe as an opinion? If you think that it is an opinion that these publications said all of this, then you need to take it up with them, not me, I don't know where they archive JD power IQ awards and CR you can't get into without being a member, so what do you want? If you want me to do more, you had better have a pretty good offer for me, otherwise,
prove me wrong!
I should add that I own a 1987 Ford Crown Victoria
that runs excellent and has NEVER burned a hole in my wallet in the 4 years I've owned it. The most expensive repair I had was brakes at 400.00.
My 1993 Isuzu Rodeo has cost me over 4000.00 in repairs in the past year that I've owned it. I think you should all consider Ford Products before making your purchases, sure every single car they build isn't 100% perfect, but they have come A LONG WAY!!
I must have misinterpreted the fact that you stopped showing up when you refused to answer the responses people made to your riduculous arguments
and refused to answer up to the misinformation you put up and just dissappeared, I am sorry I so unjustly assumed you could not handle the heat and were hiding out like you usually do, that was a big leap on my part, I sincerely and whole hearted apologize for unjustly characterizing you.
On the crash tests, you somehow forgot that I brought up the fact that there was no difference in real world injury rates between the frontier and ranger and that the tests were not conducted on 2000 frontiers after improvements have been made, also the crew cab was not shown there either. Yes stats are stats and they show no more injuries in the frontier than the ranger. SO you claim that the rager is safer, but have nothing to say about the fact that there is no difference in real world injuries between the two and you say the ranger is safer even though it takes 100feet longer to stop than the frontier, have you had time to research this yet, I notice you are still afraid to read the article even though I have offered to fax it to you numerous times. I don't dismiss what you bring up, I challenge it, and present another view, you ought to try it sometime. I don't remember criticizing the ranger for incentives, and the frontier has had a rebate for awhile now, so the point is...?
and what do you mena rock bottom? The frontier still outsells, the S-10, sonoma, and B series which according to Vince logic means that the frontier has to be better than all of those right?
but wait a minute isn't the mazda and the ford the
same truck? So let's see, the ranger is better than the frontier, and the frontier is better than the mazda, seems perfectly logical to me.
Have you d/l the torque curve on the 3.3L. I posted it for you. This post challanges you because you said when the 'joke' 3.3L reaches 2800rpm and is at its peak torque it has nowhere to go but down. While the 4.0L is still climbing. Not true, in fact the 3.3L actually holds it's torque alot longer giving the operator a longer rpm range of max torque. So tell me if you looked at it or even saw the numbers that I posted. This is one of YOUR points not mine. I didn't post the article for any other reason except for the torque curve, the one you couldn't find. A response would be good since I posted this 3-4 days ago, no response on this matter will tell me that you saw it and admit that you were mistaken because you made those earlier comments without researching the torque curve of the engine.
keanec
I'm not asking you to prove everything just if you are making a statement that is an opinion use IMHO. If you are stating a fact provide a link or a reference. I don't think we should research your facts we're not stating them. A bunch of the posts by Vince include a link but all I here from you is opinion stated as if it was fact.
If you seriously think "sales does equal quality but that is by no means the norm". Why have you stated that the CC is better quality than the Ford. Why have you stated over and over that you will not buy a Ford. Why did you buy your CC? I seem to remmeber you saying the Nissan CC is a better vehicle, better company than the Ford/ST. It sounds to me that you like the Nissan experiance and are disapointed with Ford. Sorry but I still feel that Quality = Sales and that is more the norm. There are always exceptions but the norm is Quality = Sales.
cncman
If anyone thinks this compairison can be done by percentages they are wrong. To use the stock example. Your $100 stock goes up 63.9% and my $10,000 goes up %10. I guess you must have done better because your stock went up 63.9%???????
And I'm not saying you made up anything but you state JD said this and Consumer said that. Well your reading it some where so you must already have it. Mahamai scaned and posted his article. Why don't you???????
your knowledge of finance seems to be as weak as your knowledge of trucks, using your example, if you put the same $ amount in both stocks, lets say $10,000, your preference would be for the return of $1,000 than the return of $6,390??? Well, I would love to be your broker. Let's put it another way for you, let's say ranger usually sells 300,000 units a year, frontier 100,000. If the ranger sales increase 3% that is an extra 9,000 units a year, (agreed very oversimplified, but the idea works) frontier sales increase 63.9% that is an extra 63,900 units a year! And you still have to wonder about which has a better performance???
I got the resale quote by CR from the current buyers guide on the newstand, I paged through it, did not buy it, go to your library or buy it, the JD power award you can see in various magazine ads throughout that year, I don't know where they keep archived JD power awards. I am not going to spend my money and free time to prove a common knowledge point if you don't agree with common knowledge facts, do the work yourself.
You believe quality = sales for the most part, well that would hold true wherever you go right?
They sell more yugos in yugoslavia than they do fords, so you agree that a yugo is better quality than a ford? And you also have to agree that the frontier is better quality than the mazda, well you can't have it both ways, which do you choose?
As to your point that % change can't be a good indicator. I agree. For example; it is alot easier to have a 100% increase if you only sold 1 car last year than if you had sold 1000. It is nice to no what base you are working from. But don't use investing as an example because that is a very poor example and wrong. You measure return almost strictly on percentages; whether you invest $100 or $1000.
"cncman If anyone thinks this compairison can be done by percentages they are wrong. To use the stock example. Your $100 stock goes up 63.9% and my $10,000 goes up %10. I guess you must have done better because your stock went up 63.9%???????"
Here is another opinion that is acutally wrong and can be proven wrong. The results for either scenerio are exactly the same!! The person who invested $100 did equally as well as the person who invested $10,000! That is FACT!!! Please feel free to ask any financial person. Bye the way - the person who invested $10,000 does have more money!
With regards to the Frontier increase versus the Ranger increase your point could go either way. Ford has many more (I think, I don't have facts) dealerships and a much bigger marketing budget than Nissan. Therefore it is just as hard for Nissan to get a 50% increase as Ford. A good way to test this theory is for someone to try and indentify how many dealerships Ford has and Nissan and then look at the increase/dealership. Just a thought.
AS for my opinions, I will try and make sure that I put the much needed IMHO in front of everything I say that is not a stated fact. I will continue to quote sources and say things without that as long as i state where I heard it, saw it, or found it.
on the percentages point you are saying that there is no difference in a company that usually sells 50,000 units a month increasing 3,000 units one month and another that usually sells 5,000 a month
and went up 3,000? that is absolutely ridiculous.
You really mean to say that they are both doing equally as well or am I misinterpreting what you say? When there is a difference in base valuation the only fair way to compare performance is on a percentage basis, basically, what are they doing now vs what they have historically done expressed as a relative number. If you look at a trade publication like automotive news you can see an article like the one I read last month, they always quote sales increases, decreases and production increases and decreases as percentages,
are you saying that the entire automotive community and press are completely wrong in doing this? Anyway, that's how I look at it, maybe this is getting a little out of hand,
oops, I am sorry, I meant IMHO maybe this is getting a little out of hand. please explain how either investor did equally well, I was a registered representative and have no idea what you are getting at.
I can see where the debate that quality equals sales is valid.It does happen that a quality product will generate better sales,but,for some who are saying this may be an absolute or close to,you have to consider the inverse. Sales equals quality.That is not always true and there are many examples of sales actually making the quality go down.
The sales figures that has been flying around about Ford I am sure are true,but I have to ask which sales figures are these?Are these total sales as they seem to be?If so,then it would be an unfair comparison to Nissan and any other foreign manufacturer.I would like to see the figures for consumer sales.Take out the governement sales,fleet sales,etc.Just sales to the regular guy on the street looking for a truck.That at least puts it on a level playing field.If you cannot provide those,then what is the use to debate it? The percentages for Ford would be inflated over Nissan.At least the Nissan figures are based on the average consumer going in and purchasing the vehicle.Ford,on the other hand may have sold 25,000 Rangers to the Federal government this month.
cncman... Anyone, can go an look for themselves and see the Ranger outscores the Frontier in crash rattings. www.crashtest.com, and www.carpoint.man.com. They can also see the Ranger outperforms the Frontier at Edmunds and is only 1 point behind in reliability.. and see that the Ranger outdoes the Frontier in QUALITY at JD powers. What else do you want?? As far as Torque the Ranger reaches its 225ft/lbs of torque at 2750rpms, vs the 200ft/lbs of Torque the Frontier reaches as 2800RPMS, Hmmm.... doesn't take a math genius to figure out which engine would be better for towing.... After the Frontier reaches its 200ft/lbs where does the extra torque come in? The 3.3 is weak and just live with your choice. The supercharger Nissan is putting on the 3.3 will give Nissan the ability to match NORMALLY aspirated engines of Ford/Toyota/GM.. Its a bandaid... I am reading however the new 3.5 is going to make it into the Frontier in about 2-3 years...
please explain nissan's financing and rebates are overflowing? Nissan has cut incentives over 50% in the last year and a half, and sales are still reaching record levels, so what exactly is your point, and yes vince we have all seen the data you posted, as this seems to be the only info you have, blah, blah, blah, what about the responses I have made concerning the data you posted? no response? I think gooba has the right idea, vince just puts up the same old junk, and won't respond to the rebuttal, well, you've made your points on the issues and I have made mine.
When i bought my CC I took the cash for the truck and invested it and now the bank makes my payments for me and the leftover interset payments add to the account.I did not lose my asset and I am in fact building it.
Cncman, why doesn't the Frontier even show up on the top 25 if sales are skyrocketing? The only auto that is holding Nissan afloat are the Xterra and the Maxima. The Xterra is a fad and fads end. The Max on the other hand is a fine auto. I am tired of arguing with brick walls. Anything I post or link is immediatly dismissed anyway. Basic fact is the Ranger is better in crashtests, and performance, and sits ONE point below the Frontier in reliability. JD powers rates the Ranger ABOVE the Frontier in quality. FACT.
All the other stuff about fads,JD Powers,etc,means........?Not relevant,nor is it worth discussion over again.
this topic is being "frozen." Please continue these discussions in Topic 2026 Nissan Frontier Crew Cab vs Ford Explorer Sport Trac - II. Thanks!
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