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Comments
take alot of truck like abuse and still carry around all of your stuff. The sport trac is more for the folks who would buy an SUV intead of a truck, but want the bed to throw stuff in that you wouldn't put in an SUV, so if you want something you don't mind getting dirty or scratched up and do alot of work in the CC is probably right for you, if you want leather and extra creature comforts and occasionally cary some bags of dirt or a grill around, the sport trac is a better choice, which all of this is great because the consumer gets to choose, Nissan opened the door to an explosive new category of vehicles, now others are stepping up to the plate to fill different niches that the CC doesn't. This is making the CC
better for the 01 model, better design, leather is an option, nicer features, so it is nice we can see the evolution of this new exciting category.
Well sorry for the rant, but just some thoughts I have.
Driving a Ford you better get used to now always following the manual and listening to service guys outside of Ford. Do you know anyone who drives a Windstar? If you did, you would probably find a second transmission in their vehicle if it is over 40k miles. I was told it has the same paragraph about using overdrive. I have at least 4 friends who made the mistake of buying the Ford Windstar. Every friend has changed tranny's once, one has changed twice. Guess what? We are from the Great White North and they all pull small trailers while in overdrive. Ask any reputable tranny shop if when you should use overdrive and most of them will tell you when you are the highway, and you have a light load and are driving on a fairly level plain. If your vehicle starts gear hunting, get out of overdrive; forget about what the manual says. Unless your tranny has a grade logic feature to slow it down, you will also be ahrder on your brakes. I am not a techie, this is just what I have been told by many different service people.
Vince8 - You are still spouting about what somebody else wrote (Truck Trend). I checked it out at Chapter's and it is by Motortrend. My only problem about listening to a magazine that is for profit, is that the advertisers are what pays the bills, and since Ford is a big advertiser...I think you know where I am going. Stop spouting off numbers and opinions from other people and go check out these two vehicles for yourself, if you haven't. You will probably see that even if the ST's fit and finish is as the magazine says, the Nissan is as good (and IMHO, better) as the ST.
As for comparing apples for apples, the Chrysler minivan is not a good example. Did you know if you loaded up a Grand Caravan, it would be equal in everyway (at least in Canada) as the Town & Country; except for it would be $4000 cheaper. People who buy the T&C do so because of the prestige and not because of features or quality or price. I know, I have bought a loaded GC instead of the T&C. Because something is more expensive and upscale doesn't make it always better. It just means the car companies are smart enough to realize people with more money will sometimes pay more just to show they paid more. Why do you think all the car companies make bigger margins on their upscale models?
I disagree that these 3 vehicles are not competing in the same market; they are! All 3 companies are trying to position their vehicles in a different light to achieve the same ends. Ford happens to be going after the "money" people. That is why there vehicle is so much more (in Canada, when fully loaded, there is a $8000 difference). When push comes to shove a small truck with a small bed and four doors is a small truck with a small bed and four doors; no matter how the companies position (ie suck in)their vehilces.
Ford has a ton of poeple who drive explorers who have found out that they would like to carry things outside and have more room. Earlier I think it was Vince8 who said Ford would outsell Nissan 3 to 1 and I agree; but not for the same reason. Ford is going to sell the ST to mostly present Explorer owners (which there are plenty) and some new owners. Nissan CC are going to be mostly new Nissan owners taken away from competing truck brands until GM, Toyota, Mazda and so forth come out with there own CC's.
In response to 214
I do not understand your response. You sound upset that someone has an opinion that doesn't agree with you. First my response was nothing but polite and "In my opinion".
Second I spoke of Target Markets. Look it up in the Library or ask cncman what a "Target Market" is. He works for Nissan maybe he can explain it better.
Third, I asked you where you got your information on Over Drive? Where can I READ it. I didn't insult you, I simply asked for it in print. You keep replying with a tec told you. I'm simply asking for something in print that I can read.
Just to refresh you memory you said;
>It is even recommended to only have
>the od on when you plan on traveling at
>highway speeds and this is with NO LOAD
>in or towed behind the vehicle.
You say the hp/torque specs are not based on marketing material. So what independent resource did they come from. Any manufacture can skew their specs to look as good as possible and still be accurate.
I specifically remember someone arguing that one vehicles torque was at a different RPM range, and the torque figure was misleading because of that. So which is it? All the specs are equal or they are skewed to appear the best they can. It may not of been you but who ever it was stop arguing both sides.
Mahimahi
In Response to #215
I never gave any real world data I simply asked for real world data.
Second, I guess you do not understand how to read internet humor. I fully recognized that your glove box statement was a joke. My comment was followed by
<-- That's a very very big grin.
In case you didn't understand I was making humor at your humor.
Third, I ask you to re-read my post and point out to me where I wasn't civil. Maybe I'm not seeing it the way you are.
You do however point out your immaturity in your Infinity Q45 / 6 Cylinder Diesel statement. I made a statement and preceded it as my opinion. I would not tow a 5000 lb vehicle with a 6 cylinder. Did I really need to say 6 Cylinder, Gasoline, Truck?
Some where way back in the thread someone asked Vince if he ever had his own opinion. Was it you? Because you apparently don't like it when other people have opinions.
In response to #217
As far as your question on keeping this a Nissan / Ford battle. CC vs ST is the Topic of this thread. If you want to add other vehicles I vote you start a new topic. Its already confusing enough.
keanec,
In response to #219
Ok lets play the game. I'll go get a new Transmission at 30,000 miles and you go and get a new Rear Main Seal now.
What is my point???? I don't know! Whats yours? Are you saying that the 2001 Ford Sport Trac has the same Transmission as the 1994-96 Ford Winstar. and you know they haven't fixed the problem yet? Are you saying you know the problem was the overdrive?
You also said later;
>Ford is going to sell the ST to mostly
>present Explorer owners (which there are
>plenty).
Ok, There are plenty, how many Explorer owners do you know with new transmissions?
You also made the comment; "if your vehicle starts gear hunting, get out of overdrive." If you refer to my post that is exactly what it says in the ST manual. So why is you point ANY different that what I said in my post. If the truck isn't hunting WHY would I turn off overdrive?
And if I "option up" a Caravan and it equals a Town & Country what happens when I "option up" the Town & Country?
Your saying if I "option up" the Dodge Caravan and don't do the same to the Town & Country I'm comparing Apple to Apples???? I disagree!
When did I say the Caravan was better than the T&C or visa versa. The words NEVER came from my keyboard. I was talking about TARGET MARKETS. I was using the 2 as a market comparisons. Where are you getting your comments from?
You also Said AND I QUOTE!
>I disagree that these 3 vehicles are not >competing in the same market; they are!
>All 3 companies are trying to position their
>vehicles in a different light to achieve the
>same ends. Ford happens to be going after
>the "money" people.
Going after the Money People!!!!!!!!!!
THAT'S WHAT A TARGET MARKET IS!
I do not need to go to the library to look up target market.You brought in "target market" in the same reference that the Sport Trac is not a competitor to the Crew Cab.cncman's explanation was well done and I agree with what he said. The way you stated your case it gave me the impression that you had to have something to do with the development and marketing of the Sport Trac.If this is the case then I stand corrected,because you would know what Ford's intentions were when they decided to enter this arena.If not,then you are like the rest of us and interpreting the available data and coming to a conclusion.
Back to the overdrive.If you will re-read my last response on this you will note that it was not a "tec". It was from tranmission rebuilders and service managers.It was their recommendation based on what they have seen.There is nothing in writing I can refer you to.It is based on their experience.
Okay back to the hp/torque debate.Back in the late 1960's car manufacturers would employ different methods to get a hp rating on their engines. This was somewhat misleading.So,they standardized the testing methods and all engines are tested the same.I was one that argued the torque ratings.Here is where it gets fun.Both the Nissan engine and the Ford engines are tested the same to get their hp/torque readings.Each maker deigned their engine to reach a peak torque/hp rating at a certain rpm.The Nissan reaches it at 2800-3000rpm.It attains its max hp/torque reading at a low rpm. The Ford reaches it's max hp/torque which is more at a higher rpm 4000-5000rpm.One person says that the higher hp/torque reading means that the Ford has higher hp/torque than the Nissan. This is true but at such a high rpm.My argument is show me the torque/hp curve of the Ford engine at the lower "usable" rpm and compare them. I personally do not want to turn my street engine that high. Most people would not.It creates more wear amd tear.
I've been sitting here thinking about how to respond to your post and I've decided to keep it simple and not personal. I promise not to call YOU any names!
1. The data I gave you was real world data. I work at a boat dealership (sales) and am sharing with you my towing experiences which btw every boat that leaves the that dealership does so under a trailer. We aren't located on the water. So I am just curious, what real world data or experiences you have towing that helps you discount what I have experienced?
2. I totally missed your , sorry.
3. I was simply in agreement with gooba, in saying that this should be kept civil. I never said that any one wasn't. In fact me saying that, in my subconscious ,was probably an apology for the comments that I was about to throw at you.
4. You know what's funny is that I knew exactly what you meant with your V-8 comments. I also have a feeling that you knew what I and others meant in some of our general comments. So I decided to show you that nitpicking statements that have an underlying 'common sense' meaning was absurd and not necessary here.
5. I didn't ask vince8 for his opinion, but I don't mind his opinion. It's just that his opinion on towing isn't based on real world data and if it is he hasn't proven it to me. You have even discounted what he said on towing, even if you didn't mean to.
6. The topic is fine re-read #217 and show me where I want to add different vehicles. I just wanted to know if everybody wanted to keep attacking each other or if we could compare our vehicles in a non-vicious manner, I'll play however you guys want. I just thought there were some who didn't want get involved if we are all slamming each other.
Now that that's over with I've got a question for the Nissan owners. I've got the SE 4X4, have you guys noticed when you fill up where the gas nozzle ends up? I know...in the filler hole..haha, but really the handle rests against the fender flare. I have to twist it a little so it won't hit. This probably isn't a big deal for the XE owners since theirs isn't painted. Does anybody know if they have changed it for 2001?
Hey fordsporttrac,
If your still reading this, I'll see your rear view mirror and raise you one fuel filler.
I have to ask you,in your experiences in the boating area do you find 4wd and or the limited slip to be beneficial in some of the areas where you launch?I have seen some vehicles that lainch here have a difficult time getting back up the ramp.
Tranny: I used to Windstar to make a point - not that it has the same tranny (maybe it does, I don't know) but my friends are blowing MAYBE because they are being driven improperly in OD. Vans are big and have wind resistance and can carry a lot of weight (without realizing it) and when you have people talking and the radio on, you don't hear or feeling the tranny working. This is just a thought, I do stand by my comments that OD is for flat highways and no towing. Previously, to my CC I owned a CR-V and towed 2000lbs with it in OD. When I told "Pete" Honda's service guy, he said the even if it isn't hunting all the time it is still causing strain on the Tranny. I DO NOT have anything in writing (are you a lawyer by any chance?) because I don't read magazines very often but i do watch car shows and they have mentioned this fact (motoring 2000, autoweek, so forth) as well as like Gobba said many car professionals who don't write just fix and observe. My point about the Windstar is because I know lots of tranny deprived Windstar people. I do not know a single person with an Explorer anymore so I can't use it as an example. The only person I knew sold it for a pathfinder for bwetter quality.
As for the rear seal? I only saw one person post about a problem, if it happens, it is not because of something I could have prevented and Nissan will take care of me, for free by the way, like they have for my last 5, almost problem free, Nissans. You on the other hand would have to pay big bucks if that tranny lasts till after your warranty period. So, I will take the main seal now - it is much easier on the pocket book.
Now for that good old lesson in target marketing that you are trying to give me - don't bother. I very much understand Target Marketing. The point I was trying to make wasn't disagreeing with the marketing aspect. What I was saying was just because they are going after a "niche" in the 4 door truck/SUV market they are still going after the 4 door truck/SUV market. My point about the Town & Country was that the exact same vehicle is being positioned in two different Niches, that doesn't make the T&C any different than the Loaded Grand Caravan. YES I know ford is trying to go after the more affluent part of this market, but it is still the part of same market.
The Nissan CC goes after the whole 4 door small truck market. It has a Base stripped option for the comman folk, and a almost loaded SE vesion for rich folk who care more about the appearance of money than actual value. Nissan doesn't do well in this portion of the market as they don't load up all those extras nearly as well as Ford.
Ford goes after the top end of the same market because they can convert many of there present Explorer owners. I am not saying this is wrong, I think it is a good strategy. But that doesn't change the fact that the Ford is a 4 door small truck! AND it doesn't make it a better vehicle because of its market.
Now here are some other peoples feelings; who own Explorers:
#174 of 339: Add me to the list. (erik17) Fri 08 Oct '99 (07:45 AM)
My '95 Sport had transmission problems at 50,000.
Total cost was $1,700. These problems are the
subject of Technical Service Bulletins (TSB's) at
Ford, but at this point they don't rise to the
level of a recall. Strangely, as klonedmonkey
noted, I'm getting ready to trade it in for a '99
#175 of 339: Transmission problem (dianet) Mon 11 Oct '99 (08:43 AM)
I have a '96 Ford Explorer XLT. On my way home
from work last week, the truck was having trouble
getting out of first gear. I spent $1200.00 to get
it fixed. The second and third bands in the
transmission needed replacing. The cost of the
part came to less than $200.00 and the labor was
over $1000.00. I'll be trading it in.
I just checked the Townhall "Ford Explorer transmissions (Topic #33)" at one point. There are many more complaints about the Explorers trannies, Maybe the Windstar does have the same Tranny? Or maybe it is the Fact they are both Fords?
After all is said and done, we can go on and on but the fact that remains is you own an ST and I have a CC. I am immensly happy with mine and I know from expererience, I will PROBABLY have many years of trouble free motoring. I am sure you can say the same about your ST.
The Windstar had transmission problems in the 95/96 Models only.
Ford sells thousands upon thousands of Explorers, and continues to do so even after 10 years! The Ford Explorer continues to be the number one seller in the SUV market, why? If they are all such terrible vehicles why do people continue to buy them in droves? I know quite a few people who own Explorers, none have had transmission problems, some minor problems I will admit. All are happy with their Explorers. I think you will find the majority of Explorer owners are happy with their purchases, this is why the Explorer continues to sell.
Sorry V, I had to go there on the Sport Trac
New Ford manual transmission stalls on design problems
published: 23 February 2000
date of revision: none
source: Internal Ford Motor Company documents
Ford Motor Company and Mazda are teaming up to build an all new R4 manual transmission for use in the following vehicles:
U152 4x2, 4x4 (Explorer Sport Trac)
Ranger 4x2, 4x4
UP207 4x2, 4x4
P221 (F150) 4x2 with 4.2L engines, and all 4.6L powered trucks.
Specifically, the R4 will replace the following transmissions:
- R1HD in the Ranger (U/P 207 and U152) 4.0L SOHC applications
- R2 for P221 (F150) with 4.2L and 4.6L engines.
Even though the R4 has been on the drawing board since 1998, many engineering problems are still unresolved which could either delay or kill the entire project.
One major issue is that the transmission oil is surpassing the maximum limit of 150 degrees. According to the internal documents, "At high speed in fifth gear, fluid temperatures are exceeding the 150 degree temperature limit. The problem is due to increased counter shaft speed inherent to the design and air flow reduction due to revised package." On average the temperatures are 10 degrees higher than the transmission they are expected to replace. To solve the problem "Air management devices, such as deflectors, air passages, scoops or air dam removal are being evaluated for all applications. External coolers (with and without a pump) are also being evaluated." Ford believes that the oil temperature problem can possibly (medium confidence) can be solved with air management devices.
The second issue is a Gear/Rattle/Rollover/Clunk. "The problem is due to a driveline system/vehicle system incompatibility. Efforts are ongoing to define root cause as well as to define actions to mitigate the problems. Ford is currently considering a dual mass flywheel; however, it is very cost intrusive or a less costly long travel clutch damper or a driveline damper. "Addition of an idle stage to the clutch is planned for U152 and will likely be required for Ranger and U/P 207." Ford has a high confidence that a dual mass flywheel ($80 increase) will solve this problem while they have a low to medium confidence level that other designs will correct the problem.
The third major issue is a gear whine. "3rd and 5th gears are exhibiting unacceptable noise levels." According to the report, 5th gear noise is coming from the transmission and some structural changes are being examined. A revised tailshaft extension housing design is currently in the works to cure the problem. Ford has a medium to high confidence that the noise problem will be solved to acceptable levels.
The fourth issue is the transmission's shift quality. The "Shift feel is not achieving the desired levels - notchiness and upshift crunch have been observed." Ford has a medium to high confidence that the shift quality issues will be resolved.
Based on the development problems, Mazda wrote a letter stating "We suppose it would not be realistic for you to come back to the finance committee and get approval for the additional C/L and assume that the risk of R4 cancellation would be very little. . . .However, this should not be taken as a precedent and, if the unrealistic case of R4 cancellation should be a reality, we will rely on Ford to be flexible, to the extent possible, in handling this consequence."
This is the same reason the ST will do so well. It has looks, functionality, and performance..maybe all better than the Nissan. I tend to rate a vehicle on reliability first and foremost.
Windstar -- give me a break!! It is not just the 95-96 Windstars. The newer ones have tranny (and many other problems) too! They just haven't reached the age/mileage (read..warranty over!)to see the premature failure. And yes, premature failure is anything under 150000km. Wife's Uncle 1999 Windstar - replaced 1 tranny at 12000km; also replaced front tie rods. Best friends 1998 Windstar - 2 trannys replaced and he is just reaching 96000KM (he is a sales rep).. I can go on. Enough said.
I wish someone would find some graphs for you Vince8 to let you get over the Torque thing! Torque/HP is not the end all be all. If you don't have the curve in front of you, stop making comments like you bet the ST has 200ftlb at 2800; you, and nobody else on this board so far has proved it.
Now, the dealer up the street has 5 or 6 STs sitting on their front lawn at the corner of our busiest intersection. The doors are wide open on all of them and they look good! I wonder though, how many buyers in my area are going to look at the crew cab f150 sitting beside them and say for the extra $1000, why don't i get a bigger box and more room? the gas mileage is the same and the F150can definetly out-pull the ST or CC (that one is for you Vince8). But like fordsporttrac knows, the Target Market of the ST would not buy the F150; they are just not smart enough to see a better bargain!
Oka
What's your point? As far as I know that tranny is still being developed. And that's why it's still in development, because it's not perfect yet. When it is, they'll produce it. If it still sucks, then you can complain.
"U152: Due to the design characteristics, only the R4 package can be used. If the R4 is delayed, no manual transmission will be available. A modified R1 will not work; therefore, the U152 team is supporting the R4 and would require about 13,000 units annually."
When they build a vehicle that runs - then I'll stop complaining :-)
You said;
>The problem I have is that you jumped
>in and the "tone" of your earlier posts
>was of a adversarial nature.
You also said;
>I am going to give you the benefit of the
>doubt and figure that you did not
>intentionally try to upset myself and maybe
>some others on this message board.
The problem is I am writing words that can
be interpreted in different ways. Yes some of
my comments were adversarial in nature. I could
not have an opposite opinion with out being
adversarial. My words do not have a tone. You
are interpreting what you think my tone is. I ask again, re-read my post to you and let me know where you believe I was insulting to you and NOT expressing my opinion. When you point it out I may understand better.
You said;
>I do not need to go to the library to look up >target market. You brought in "target market" in >the same reference that the Sport Trac is not a >competitor to the Crew Cab. cncman's explanation >was well done and I agree with what he said.
Ok lets look at what I said in my first post;
I said in my original post #208
>IMHO, Ford is marketing the ST in the SUV 25-40
>year old (have kids) market and NOT the Truck
>market. The 3 CarSeat points, lower ground
>clearance and soft suspension are a dead give
>away.
In post #209 you responded with;
>I have to disagree with your first statement >about the comparisons. The Sport Trac is a >competitor to the Frontier Crew Cab as well as >the Dakota Crew Cab.
But you now say cncman's post #218 is correct.
Cncman said;
>Even though these vehicles are in the same class
>and do compete with each other, they are marketed >differently.
Is it that you changed your mind or cncman explained it better.? Or maybe you get your jollies nitpicking what people have to say?
You said About Overdrive;
>If you will re-read my last response on this you >will note that it was not a "tec". It was from >tranmission rebuilders and service managers.
Tec = technical person. That should cover transmission rebuilders and service managers.
You said,
>I've been sitting here thinking about how to
>respond to your post and I've decided to keep it
>simple and not personal. I promise not to call >YOU any names!
I get the impression you think I was not justified In my reply to you. (calling you immature) Let me refresh you memory.
You said;
>Ok... guys according to fordsporttrac, we need >to trade our trucks in and get a Infinity Q45. >Come on why not it's a vehicle and it's got 8 >cylinders. Well, that's if you want to tow 2.5 >tons. Now here is the question, taking into >account the ridiculous statements you made. What >about the Dodge/Cummins combo? huh? That's right, >it's 6 cylinders.
In the interest of moving forward with a civil debate I apologize to you for my comment.
Moving on you said;
>We aren't located on the water. So I am
>just curious, what real world data or >experiences you have towing that helps you >discount what I have experienced?
My real world data consists of towing a tandem PWC trailer or a 19' Chris Craft. The 19' was all local. The PWC's are local and 500 mile round trip runs to upstate NY lakes.
Because I just purchased the ST my only experience is towing using my old 4Runner.
During these runs I never turned off the Overdrive My old 4Runner was a 3.0 V6. If it hit a steep hill it would drop out of Overdrive itself. I traded it in with 100,000 miles.
Review my posts I NEVER discounted what you said. I'm simply looking for an article, a bulletin, a white paper anything I can read. I don't care about the HP vs Toque vs Gears. All I care about Is "If what you and others say about Overdrive is true." But you are speaking as if operating the Overdrive in the way you explained is fact. All I am asking is, if this is such I widely known fact someone, somewhere, must have written something about it. I would like to read it. Right now I have, the Mechanic told the Service Manager, The Service Manager told gooba. Gooba told me And a bunch of 1995 Ford Winstar with unknown Transmission problems.
You said;
>The topic is fine re-read #217 and show me
>where I want to add different vehicles.
I re-read it, Your right, Sorry. You did NOT say that. I'm not sure where I got that from but I agree, its time to come down a notch.
You said;
>Hey fordsporttrac,
>If your still reading this, I'll see your rear
>view mirror and raise you one fuel filler.
Ok, lets see I'll raise you a jammed hand trying to adjust the drivers seat with the drivers door closed.
You said;
>I don't know) but my friends are blowing MAYBE
>Because they are being driven improperly in OD.
An MAYBE it's a design flaw.
You also said.
>This is just a thought, I do stand by my >comments that OD is for flat highways and no >towing.
That's fine and I stand by my request for some type of information I can read about Overdrive.
You asked;
>(are you a lawyer by any chance?)
No I'm a technical person in the computer field. I get hundreds of calls weekly from people with misleading information and hearsay. I've learned a big lesson about listening to hearsay. It may be true but if your concerned follow up and investigate.
So I hear that towing with Overdrive is a no no. I said to myself. Ok several people are saying it, that could be worth investigation. I ask, anybody have anything I can read? Nope.
I ask myself what is the original source of my
information. All Nissan owners. Suspicious.
Hey maybe your right but It wouldn't hold up
In court.
You said;
>So, I will take the main seal now - it is
>much easier on the pocket book.
Remember this, to change the rear main seal
they have to remove the engine. How many
new problems do you think will occur because
of that. So if I must choose between Rear Main
Seal and Transmission I choose Transmission.
However I hope neither happens.
You said;
>My point about the Town & Country was that
>the exact same vehicle is being positioned in
>two different Niches.
That was EXACTLY my point in my previous post
that you disagreed with. If you prefer to call a target market a niche so be it,
You put several posts from other threads but they Continue to be from the 95 & 96 years. Has ford fixed the problem since then. I guess I'll find out in 4 or 5 years.
Your Followup Post 227;
You Said;
>Windstar -- give me a break!! It is not just
>the 95-96 Windstars. The newer ones have tranny >(and many other problems) too! They just haven't >reached the age/mileage (read..warranty over!)to >see the premature failure. And yes, premature >failure is anything under 150000km. Wife's Uncle >1999 Windstar replaced 1 tranny at 12000km; also >replaced front tie rods. Best friends 1998 >Windstar - 2 trannys replaced and he is just >reaching 96000KM (he is a sales rep).. I can go >on. Enough said.
WHO CARES ABOUT A WINDSTAR.
What does a Windstar have to do with this Topic?
You also Said;
>But like fordsporttrac knows, the
>Target Market of the ST would not buy the F150;
>they are just not smart enough to see a better
> bargain!
Up until that very last comment I thought you were trying to be civil. Now I can see you really don't like other people opinions and that you feel yours is the only right one. Based on your comments the dumb people have the money, and you're one of the smart ones.
Enough of you.
I hope with this response, I don't bore you or confuse you, but towing in general is an art form, especially a boat. If you tow...you know..hehehe(ok it was corny,sorry). I feel that I need to explain my answer.
The area I tow is north FL(panhandle) and the west coast of FL(Tampa/St. Pete area). The reason I put these two places is because of the differences in the ramps of these areas. Most of the N. Fla. ramps that I use are located on some of the rivers. What this means is they aren't nearly as affected by tidal changes as ramps located directly in a bay or the intercoastal. There are few (luckily) that are steep. Now the ramps in the Bay Area(Tampa Bay) are completely the opposite for the most part. They are much steeper because of their location on either the Bay or Intercoastal. I haven't needed to use the 4 wheel drive yet on the crew cab. I didn't need to use it on any of the trucks that I tested either(I did take them all to the same ramp). I know what you are saying about people spinning their tires. I've sat and watched some do it. Most of the time I think it's people getting over zealous, they feel the truck roll back after they take off the parking brake then punch the gas pedal. Both of our full-size chevy(1500), a '91 silverado extended cab w/a 350 and the other one extended cab w/a 305, are two wheel drive and I've never spun the tires even with a 26ft. 6500lbs rig. So, I guess it depends on where you are launching as to whether or not 4 wheel drive is necessary. One more factor too, the skill(or patience) of the driver. If some of these people would understand that they just need to keep slowly increasing the the gas. Let the torque work. One trick I used to use on my '94 2-wheel drive S-10 SS, was (now this can be tricky)I would keep my left foot on the brake and right on the gas. Basically as you release the parking brake keep the left foot on the brake and slowly increase the gas and slowly release the pressure on the brake with your left foot. This should help keep the wheels from spinning. I didn't have to use this technique alot, usually when the ramps where very wet from heavy use that afternoon. You know the biggest problem I've had at the ramp is the rig sliding about a foot or so, just as you start to back over that little hump in the ramp, even with ABS.
I really can't compare the differences between the 2 wheel and 4 wheel CC with the limited slip diff. 'cause I didn't drive a 2WD model. I'm sure it would do fine, like I said I haven't spun mine yet.
In my opinion, when it comes to towing 4 wheel is surely beneficial but not absolutely necessary.
I've been wondering...why chevy seems to be the only manufacture to take the weight of the 4 wheel drive components into a trucks towing cap.? It seems to make sense that a 2 wheel truck should have more towing cap. if you take the weight difference. I know it not much but, the specs should at least be true.
Once the back wheels hit the slime they start sliding. (at high tide its covered by the water) The correct thing to do is hit the brake and try and hold using the front wheels which are still on dry wood. But they usually panic and floor it. The rear wheels don't grab and into the water they go.
Some are smart enough to hit the brakes but if they are able stop sliding, after a few seconds they try and drive out again. Thats when the hit the water. :-)
I watched one guy start his boat and use it to help push the truck up the ramp while his wife floored it. He came back down in 4WD.
I know what you're saying about the written proof. To tell you the truth, I think that the only place I actually read to turn off your OD was on a visior of a truck. What's funny is I read this after everyone I worked with at the dealership(boat) told me not to use the overdrive. I myself have replaced a transmission in every truck that I've owned 2 were manuals(suzuki & Toyota both with over 100,000 miles each) the third was a '94 S-10 (the only one I ever towed with, almost every weekend...3000lb. 19ft Cape Horn). The s-10 had 39k miles on it, the warranty ran out at the typical 36k. I raised hell, because they weren't going to help me out, we ended up doing a P-50. I didn't see anything from Chevy about taking my tranny out of overdrive while towing, but you know that it was the very first question the service manager asked me when he called me after they checked it out. I used to tow in overdrive until(about 10k miles worth, but not everyweekend 'cause I didn't get the demo until I worked for the dealership) I worked for the boat dealership and everybody convinced me not to. I know this isn't related to our topic, but IMHO chevy's transmissions are absolutely horrble. I say this with my dealership replacing two on bothof their truck and a friend of mine's '95 Z-71 is starting to slip. I've experienced the 'hunting' while towing in certain vehicles-actually did it on porpose with one of the company vehicles-just once, I'm sure they didn't replace the tranny causeof me. So, I know it can happen even here in good 'ole flat florida.
So I guess my point is that I have never read in a book or magazine that you need to turn off your OD, it's always been said. See, i always wondered if a truck can haul a payload of whatever its cap. and you don't have to turn off the overdrive, why can't you tow w/the OD on. I answered myself with "maybe because a truck can usually tow more than it's playload". What I've begun to do with my customers is find out what their vehicle is. Sit down with them and their manual(if it doesn't say anything about OD), find out what the payload an tell them I recommend that they turn off they OD(if the boat pkg. is more than their payload). Plus, since I'm not in the auto industry, I tell them to check with their dealer.
I haven't made it by the dealers yet, been very busy this week, but I'm going to try to get by this comming week. I'm interrested in knowing what they have to say.
I know that this is the hardest part of being a truck owner or boat owner- trailering. I seen marriages breakup right there at the boat ramp!
You said,
>I didn't see anything from Chevy about taking
>my tranny out of overdrive while towing, but you
>know that it was the very first question the
>service manager asked me when he called me after
>they checked it out.
I had a Toyota MR2 years ago and my transmission started acting up at 30,000. He took me on a test drive so I could show him the problem. It only happened if you were trying to get into traffic in a hurry. In other words FLOORING IT.
Anyway when we got back to the dealership he said that I abused the car and that it should never be reved that high. (I think Red line was around 9k Yellow was 8K and I hit around 6K.)
I handed him the owners manual and said show me where it says that 6K is abuse. Toyota paid to have it fixed.
My point is I would rather run the Truck like it should be run and have it break while under warrentee than baby it and have it break when its out. If taking the truck out of overdrive is considered normal than I will. If its babying it then I will not. That is the key reason I want to read something on it.
If you do speak to the dealer how you phrase your question is important. If he thinks you have a Ford with a bad tranny and your asking if Overdrive should be off while towing he's gona say yes no matter what.
If you phrase it something like I just brought a new ford and what is your recomendation for the use of overdrive. When he answers if he dosn't include towing then ask "what about when towing".
BTW,
I'm gona check the visor of my truck tonight. I'm also gona try and contact one of the TV shows like MotorWeek to see If they are willing to respond. I think they have an Email address.
>I seen marriages breakup right there at the boat >ramp!
I thought it was the boat that usually cause the marriage to break up.
You asked;
>I have a question for you.I have seen a few posts >in other areas about the limited slip >differential pro or con. My question is does the >Sport Trac come with or offer as an option this >differential and would you consider it an >advantageous option?
I have the limited slip option and the Payload Package. I did NOT want the payload package but it was the only one on the lot. Well it was the only one within 30 miles. It came in that morning and I brought it 8 hours later. I paid $750 over invoce. I'm sure I could have done better if I ordered it but there it was complete with all the options except the cage and tounneu cover which I ordered at invoice price when I broght the ST.
I buy a vehicle every 6 or so years (that way its paid off when I trade) I liked the looks on TV of the Dodge ?dakota? and I was tired of trying to fit junk in the back of my 4Runner.
I test drove the Dodge but it had very limited options and was too big for my wife to drive. I have a very stupid reason for liking the lower ground clearence. First I do not go off roading. Second every time I slid out of the 4Runner I hit the button on my pager and turned it off without knowing it. Yep stupid.
I've never had limited slip before and it does take getting use to. Going around tight turns when the tire hits the gravel on the side of the road I get a VERY SMALL chirp and I can feel it kick in.
It handles great and the transmission is smother than my 4Runner but I wish I didn't have the Payload Package. I test drove one with out and it was softer ride. The payload package makes it a firmer ride. I don't know exactly what the package is but I guess its stiffer suspension.
MY rule is If you have a back seat it has to have a door. I have my first child on the way and the 3 child seat hard points were a plus.
Ohh well its late time to leave work. Back on Monday.
The limited-slip seems to work good, I've only been to the ramp three times though, and haven't had the wheels spin yet. I notice I can't seem to get that backend to kick out when I go around corners, like my '81 toyo 4X4 did!
I agree with you the blk fenders accent the solar yellow nicely. I got the SE that I have, because I wanted everything, all of the options. I got spoiled, the vehicle I traded for this C.C. was an Acura Legend LS fully loaded. I bought the Acura thinking I needed a 4-door car for business. I bought it because nobody made a 4-door pickup two years ago. I couldn't take it any longer, I had to have a truck again. I absolutely love this truck, I just have to be careful of the colored flares and (I forgot to mention) the painted air dam under the bumper. Which by the way those of you thinking of doing alot of 4-wheeling take those painted surfaces into account, especially the air dam. I do alittle offroading which is one reason I got 4wheel drive, but only during duck season. Just thought you wanted to know.
I know you probably won't read this until Mon. but, on my way home from work(after I wrote #236, I think) I did stop at Freedom Ford in Clearwater. Of course, service was way gone but, it was 6pm. I wanted to get a brochure that Ford puts out just on towing. I had this brochure 'til I finally bought the Nissan. I picked one up at a boat show here. I was hoping that it had something on the OD. Anyway, I parked in the back(for fear that I would run into Vince8, no vince, just kidding)so the salesmen would talk to me. My intention was to go in quietly and grab a brochure, get out as fast as I could. But as soon I as I rounded the corner I got caught, a sales man snagged me. So I told him what I was after, the brochure, the reason I gave him was because my brother and I were in a discusion about towing and OD (wether or not to use it).I also told him, he(my brother) was looking to buy the ST. So, he told me that they were out of all the info on the S/T and the brochure I was really after. He proceeded to look through all of his sales guides on the Explorer, he didn't have one on the S/T yet, on towing specs. I wish I had gotten this kind of service back in February, when I was shopping, I had to hunt down salesmen.
When I first told him the reason that I was there he immediately told me that the overdrive should be off, then he went into some speal about his own Grand Marquise and how he doesn't tow with it in overdrive because the bearings or something weren't designed for heavy loads, this was more info than I needed not, to mention the wrong info. To no avail, I came up empty handed. My good friend and former college roommate is a service writer(advisor) for a chrysler/jeep dealer, I eat lunch w/him once a week, I could ask him but I wouldn't want you to think his answer is bias.
I was thinking that a good way to read about road tests that might not be biased about its comments are boating mags. Most of them don't have auto advertisers. I just happened to pick up the April 2000 issue of Boating World, it was really to find something about the OD issue. Then I saw that they tested the Nissan C.C. XE. They talked about towing being one of the frontier's strong points, but who knows what the towed, they don't say and how far? Its probably online I'll see if I can get the address to those that are interrested.
Fordsporttrack you said "That's fine and I stand by my request for some type of information I can read about Overdrive".
Well, I don't have any, and I won't have any and I give up to you on this point. I will let you and Mah.. hash it out. Meanwhile I will tow my Snowmachine & tent trailer without using OD; just to be safe.
FordST you said "Remember this... ...choose between Rear Main Seal and Transmission I choose Transmission..."
Your opinion and luck to you.; I trust if they replaced my main seal properly no new problems would be caused, and if so, they would happen before warranty runs out. I tend to think you won't have as much luck with a tranny.
About the T & C - okay I dropped the ball on that one!!
About the 95 & 96 tranny problems with the Ex., read that discussion group further and you will find it is not just the 95 & 96's.. I picked very randomly, from the middle of the pack.
FordST you said "WHO CARES ABOUT A WINDSTAR. What does a Windstar have to do with this Topic?"
Your right, but I was referring to a reply from another person saying that only the 95 & 96 had problems..I will refrain from bringing other vehicles into this discussion in the future. I only did it as either an analogy or for reference by the way.
FordST you said "Based on your comments the dumb people have the money, and you're one of the smart ones.
Enough of you."
Okay, that wasn't called for..you are the target marketing computer specialist who said that Ford was going after the 25-40 people, I don't know which post you said that in, but I think you did (if not sorry).Well I am in that target market group, and I have 2 kids in car seats (yes the CC has 3 - count them - three "hard points")and I have a neice in a car seat - and all three fit in the back seat nicely; and, guess what?, i am in the income class that the ST is shooting for!!! If you are offended by my comment - take a pill! I didn't mean to offend you! take a comment with a grain of salt and don't take them personally. If I touched a nerve, sorry. In Northern Ont, where I live, that comment is exactly why the F150 will outsell the Ex. 10 to 1 and why the 4 door F150 will outsell the ST 10 to 1. It is the way it is here. Why pay the virtually the same price for a smaller, less capable, vehicle? People here could care less about being able to "fit" into parking spaces or about ride quality when they are on a "camp" (cottage) road. Experience? My father-in-law, and brother-in-law (for your info - 2 seperate people) both own F150 ext. and they laugh at the small size & reduced capabilities of BOTH my CC & your ST.
Now your comment about dumb people is inappropriate. That is not what I ment..it was a half joke that was also referring to your target marketing comment..if you don't get it..fine..keep your ___off comments to yourself; it is not becoming of your earlier civility. Go back to marketing 1001 and learn the lesson of marketing - it's not what you sell, or how good it is, but how you sell it! In other words, good marketing can make an Inuit want, and buy, Ice when it is the last thing he/she needs!! Computer 1001 should also teach this! That's how Bill Gates became rich!
enough said! lets both lighten up and try and give some useful comments rather than both ripping aprt line for line everybody's comments.
On another topic, I took a ST for a spin last night at my local dealer. Damn fine vehicle. Only thing I hate is the automatic transmission. When you've driven a manual your whole life its hard to switch. Even though I've been reading all over that the manual is scheduled for fall (whatever that means) this particular dealership had absolutely no knowledge of if a manual was planned at all, and in their opinioin, it probably wouldn't. Now I don't know if the guy was just trying to push me towards the automatic I test drove (most likely), but I continually find it odd how often dealers don't know [non-permissible content removed] about the cars they are trying to sell. Even MotorTrend has it written in their article that a maual is planned for fall. I just hope it comes out, because a ST with a 5 speed will be my next vehicle.
I work at the front door of a hotel in Las Vegas.
My job is closely invovled with guests checking in and checking out as well as Taxi's arriving and departing from the hotel. The reason for my explaining all this is because of the input I get on a daily basis regarding automobiles that arrive and depart from the property.
As most people know summer time in Las Vegas will either make or break your car. A lot of our guests come from California over and threw one of the hottest roads in the west The Mojave Desert.
Let me get to my point.
First area of observation
2 out of 5 taxi's in Las Vegas are Ford Explorers
the other 2 out of the 5 taxi's are Ford Crown Vic's, the others (1 out of 5) are a mixture of Chrysler mini-vans, a few Dodge Dekoda's, a few Grand Jeeps. In talking to many taxi drivers I am told automobile manufactors will give Cab companies cars to test drive and then they pick them up for inspection. This is also done with tires.
I have seen a Caddy once, a Toyota Camery, and a few Chev's. My point is the most used automobile is Ford. Explorer's are the favoret. I have never seen a Nissan taxi! Car or Turck! I wounder why?
Next observation
It seems this discussion about who can tow the most at what speed, up what hill, and tow how big of a boat? Is really not the reason Nissan and Ford developed the Crew Cab and The Sport Trac.
Really either your going to buy a REAL TOW automobile or a sporty SUV with some nice hopes in the brochue to get you to buy it. Living in the desert I see and know a lot of snow birds. I don't know any who would tow anything but a small utility trailer with these SUV's. Not saying they couldn't tow 5000lbs. But we here who live in the Mojave Desert don't put our SUV's to the Max. every day unless you want to spend your spare time at the shop. Really any SUV put under constant stress every time you turn the key will not last a year out here. If you want a REAL tow vehical buy one. If you want a Sport Car/Sport Truck buy a Nissan or a extreem tested Ford product. I did confedently order a Sport Trac. And am a past owner of two Explorers. Sorry for taking five cents..........
I appreciate your opinions, but I don't agree with your premise that the majority of taxis in your area are fords because they last longer . If you really think about that, it is faulty logic. Some of the most popular SUV's in Australia and Africa
and South America are Nissans and Toyotas. I don't think that the environment in Las Vegas compares to these environments. Have fun with your sport trac, enjoy it while there are only a few around,
soon it will be like the crew cab and be all over the place!
I agree with you on the salesman bit. I shopped the Sport trac and the Nissan and several dealers of each. They all seemed to be clueless. they spent more time with their noses buried in their sales guides than they did trying to point out the features. The nissan salesman that I ended up buying mine from didn't even know how to take the truck out of 4 wheel drive(actuallly unlocking the hubs) i had to explain to him that you have to back up to unlock them. In fact he argued with me until I showed him the VISOR! Most of the ford guys weren't too bad considering the truck was so new. On every lot I went to I spent at least 20-25 mins. w/o any help until I litterly begged them to help me. My point is that , at least down here, the car salesmen jump from dealership to dealership so much that they don't even know what they're selling. Now cncman, obviously you've shown your skill and knowledge, this doesn't apply to you. I had to actually sell myself why I should get the Nissan over the Ford. It wasn't because of the brand either.
Let's clear up one of your points, the Nissan Crew Cab is not a SUV and it's not marketed as one either. Nissan has the new XTERRA for that market, not to mention the PATHFINDER too!
But can you give me your definition of what a REAL tow vehicle is?
What have you towed that you base your opinions on?(don't take that as a smart *ss comment I just want to know specifically, what your experiences are)
What vehicles other than SUVs have you used to tow with?
I know that everyone out there, myself included, has an idea of what can tow what. If you're saying that because the S/T and the C.C. aren't rated to tow/pull 10,000lbs aren't REAL tow vehicles, then I disagree with your thinking. You can't rate what a REAL tow vehicle based on how much it is rated for but rather it's design. More clearly, how it's designed to tow something. True there are manufactures that design their trucks better for towing, but GENERALLY they all have the same basic design. A pickup is designed for ULTILITY which includes towing, hauling and pulling they extra stuff like comfort, soft ride,four doors and good looks all come as a bonus. Although pickups come in a variety of sizes so do their capacities. I think as far as your taxi comparision, you need to check that out more. Don't think that the explorer that's sitting on the showroom floor is the same explorer that is setup as taxis. The taxi version of any thing is usually setup to handle the abuse like, trans. coolers, hhigher thermostats, HD trans. and so on. I know that Chevy and Ford both have police/taxi versions of their full-size cars(crown vic.& impala), so they probably have the same for the explorer. Getting back to the REAL tow vehicle issue, all pickups are generally designed the same. Meaning that they all can tow something, some are just better at towing heavier loads than others. So a pickup IS a REAL tow vehicle. FYI, what do you think tow truck are underneath that special designed bed? That's right a pickup(HD of course, but that's because they are going to tow extra heavy loads everyday). So what I would say is, buy a truck that is rated for about a 1000lbs. more than what you plan on towing. Thats a safe recommendation.
There are a couple things you should keep in mind before choosing a vehicle for towing,especially a travel trailer.You need to consider the length of the trailer and the suspension of the vehicle.The longer the trailer the longer your wheelbase should be on the tow vehicle.Especially if the trailer does not have brakes.You want this so that you have a stable tow platform.If this is a short trailer,then you need to look at the suspension package.Usually the softer the ride the more you will probably have to do to that vehicle so it does not have the rear drop too far.
Believe me the summers are hot, hot, hot in Las Vegas. 100 Degrees plus everyday I was there.
I just am finding it hard to believe the Nissan CC would tow better than a Ford Explorer Sport Trac. I believe the whole debate here is based on frame because hands down the Sport Trac has the HP/Torque advantage, giving the better tow performance.... Why is the Explorer ST rated at over 5K towing capacity?
I've got a question for you. What is that little area in front of my shifter on the console for? It's got like indentations or slots, it kindof looks like a coin holder. I have an auto.
vince8,
I think that you are hopeless on the whole towing bit. I think if you are capable of reading, you really get the point. I think you just like to argue. It's not that I don't respect you opinion, you comments don't make real world sense. You don't look at the whole picture(vehicle) you're looking at just one element. If you understand my points then what your underlying arguement really is, that the Explorer Sport Trac is actually a pick up. With that you are dead wrong. You can ask those that hve bought them. Most of them have bought it over the C.C. because it's a SUV with a bed. Check out the responses that fordsporttrac has given me and the others why he bought his.
Come on guy,you can't be serious with what you are saying.With your logic I could drop a 500hp/435ft/lbs of torque engine in my Crewcab and have a good tow platform.That is not the case and you should know that.it has already been stated that the rear suspension on the Sporttrac is soft.It is probably too soft for the serious towing that some people might subject it to.it is a matter of what he is wanting to tow,and how stable he wants to feel doing it.
As far as Las Vegas,it isn't that hot.Beautiful place and I travel there at least 6 times a year.It is a pleasant place and I go there and enjoy the cooler weather.
To fordsprottrac (for his marketing expertise and smart [non-permissible content removed] attitude) in the post #208:
----------
Item 1:
----------
For humble opinions...
"IMHO the ST is a hybrid vehicle. A bit of luxury and a bit of truck."
[and down few lines, another "humble" opinion...]
"IMHO, Ford is marketing the ST in the SUV 25-40 year old (have kids) market
and NOT the Truck market."
Would you care to tell us if you got a "TRUCK" (even "a bit") or not?
Hey Ford marketing, are you folks blind or what? People are buying your S-T thinking it's
a truck, better change your marketing tactics!
----------
Item 2:
----------
For
[down few more lines...]
"Nissan is marketing its vehicle in the 18-30 year old market who want to do light off roading."
Basically, talking about...
"25-40 year old" VS "18-30 year old"
"The 3 CarSeat points, lower ground clearance and soft suspension are a dead give
away." VS "...light off roading. Higher ground clearance, flared fenders, Mud flaps
and a choice of wild colors is a dead giveaway."
So fordsprottrac (just following your style of thinking), since I don't agree with your opinion
I say you are providing "Disinformation"
(also because I can easily find a 35 year old driving a CC!)
----------
Item 3:
----------
And lets see you picking on people giving "blanket statement" when earlier in your post, you wrote:
"All the stats being used are pulled from sales material."
What is "All" here?
----------
Fordsporttrac, you mentioned that you work in technical computing area not in the marketing -
DON'T GIVE UP YOUR DAY JOB!!!
----------
Gooba, Mahimahi and (yes) Vince8 thanks for the useful info. and specs. (Vince8: My thanks to you ONLY if you prefer the same thing for others as
you would do for yourself!)
I don't know for sure, at first I thought it might be blanks for some switches for optional equipment, but there are no options that put anything there, I imagine it is just a storage area, probably for coins like you guessed.
Great gooba, how did you end up doing it?
Not that I wanted to get back into this thread but ok one more time just for you. First nice of you to jump in so late?
Second, do you take the time to read your own posts? Who are your trying to slam, me? ford? yourself? Its obvious that you skimmed my posts and picked out various passages to reply to but did you read the whole thread?
Your Item #1,
Sounds like you are one of the people you refer to. You are commenting about me having an opinion. You'll notice I said "in my opinion". Do you have a point to make or was your point to just slam my opinion?
Your Item #2,
When you disagree with someone you have an opinion just like me and everybody else. If you want to debate your opinion, great. That's what the list is for. So if you have a point to make, post it.
Yes you could easily find a 35 year old driving a CC but your comment shows me either you didn't read the whole thread or you have no understanding of marketing.
Your Item #3,
Yep I said ALL stats are being pulled from sales materials. You should have also read in other posts I asked if there was an independent source. So far everyone who responded got numbers from sales material or manufacturers web sites. My point was, manufacturers probably make the numbers look as good as possible. I'll equate the numbers to crash tests. Do you prefer crash tests done by Ford/Nissan or tests done by the Insurance Institute. Yes, the government regulates and monitors the manufacturers crash tests. But most people still prefer the Insurance Tests. Why? I guess because they are independent. So is there someone who regulates and verifies engine specs? Can I get the specs from their independent tests? That was my question, explain to me your problem with it.
You didn't mention what you do, but if you have a marketing department at your job ask one of them what the definition of a "Target Market" is in relation to like products. Then read back through my posts and let me know where you disagree. I'm interested in hearing your opinion.
As far as your comment to Vince8 IMHO, sounds like you need to take a little "do un to other" advice yourself.
Two things come to mind;
Maybe the dashboard design originated in another vehicle and Nissan just re-used the mold for the CC. Stop at a dealer and see if the dash matches any other vehicles.
or
Maybe Nissan designed ahead and the mold is ready for the 2001 CC Options.
Some other thoughts,
Fog lights
Plow Package
Alarm System
Airbag Disable Switch in 2 Door Models.
>I wanted to get a brochure that Ford puts out >just on towing. I had this brochure 'til I >finally bought the Nissan.
Ahhhh they have a brochure???? I'll try and get one at my dealer. Let you know. I forgot to check the visor I'll check on the way out tonight.
You said;
>FordST decided to tell me to ____off and this is >my reply to him/her..
First I never said ____off so grow up.
What I did say is "Enough of you".
You also said;
>If you are offended by my comment - take a pill! >I didn't mean to offend you! take a comment with >a grain of salt and don't take them personally.
So when you said;
>But like fordsporttrac knows, the Target Market >of the ST would not buy the F150 they are just >not smart enough to see a better bargain!
You didn't want me to take it personaly? Sounds like it is directly targeted to insult me. Its not followed by any indication that you meant it as anything but an insult.
Then you post;
>Now your comment about dumb people is
>inappropriate. That is not what I ment..it was a
>half joke that was also referring to your target
>marketing comment.. if you don't get it.. fine.. >keep your ___off comments to yourself; it is not
>becoming of your earlier civility.
Jokes are usually followed by LOL VBG ect. I've always kept my civility but you seem to have forgotten yours.
Finally You said;
>enough said! lets both lighten up and try and >give some useful comments rather than both >ripping aprt line for line everybody's comments.
You've got to be kidding. If your goal was to lighten up the conversation you have a lousy way of showing it. How about we just agree to ignore each others posts.
Like I said before "Enough of you"
>My point is the most used automobile is
>Ford. Explorer's are the favorite. I have never
>seen a Nissan taxi! Car or Truck! I wounder why?
I think that is a valid question. Maybe its not because of who lasts longer, maybe its because of production, fleet discounts or some type of Made in the USA issue. But it is still a good question. I've never seen a Nissan taxi in NYC or any number of other major cities in the US either. Anybody have a valid reason?
Guess the best place to compare a vehicle's "worth" would be to go to country in between, not too close to the US, not too close to Asia, like Africa or Europe. There, Nissans, Toyotas, Discos, and Jeeps seem to be the norm. What does everyone else think?
This morning I went to another Ford dealer(Walker Ford) in Clearwater. Again slammed by another salesman, I tell you I never got service like this when I actually needed it. So I talked to him and his sales manager. I told them that I was considering the S/T and that we Have a 3500lb boat that we tow on the weekend, I wanted to know if we could tow in overdrive. I also told them that my Nissan('cause they saw me pull up) manual didn't say that I could or couldn't. They didn't have the brochure I was talking about either. Anyway we talked about towing, they told me that you could tow in overdrive but, couldn't show me that in writing. Another man walked out of the F&I office and said that since it was the same tranny that they've been putting in the Explorer for years and that they (Ford I assumed) corrected all of the problems that that tranny had and I could be assured that I could tow in overdrive. I have to tell you, one thing I've learned in sales is to sit back and listen, it sounded to me like these guys were clueless. Meanwhile the salesman proceeded to tell me that he pulls his own 26' Grady White in overdrive with his F-150 and runs 75 mph. For those of you who don't know(and he obviously didn't either) that boat rigged out with twin engines weighs somewhere around 7000lbs to 9000lbs.(dpending on which model. When I heard that I deciced it was time to leave, not because I didn't get the answer I wanted but these guys were CLUELESS! I've never heard of a problem with the tranny in the Explorer, but I've never done any research on the Explorer, I don't care, to me it's not what I was asking about. Next time I go to a dealer I'll go directly to the back(service). The service mgr. wasn't in today. I just found out that Nissan puts out a brochure as well about towing I'll see if I can get one from them tomm. I just want you to know I'm not picking on the Ford dealers, I just haven't gotten by the Nissan dearlers yet and I can't wait for what my dealer says, I'll bet that we'll all get a good laugh.
Thanks for your responses on the console question. Just to let you guys know it's not blanks it's actually molded in the front of my(our)console and it has evenly placed ridges(I should have desribed it better). I think all of the pickups(auto), pathfinder(auto)at least the '99s and probablly the xterra(auto) have it. I think it's to hold coins but not very many because it's at an angle, whatever I don't use it. I was just wondering. Thanks anyway guys.