Your assessment of American quality is as "blind" as those of ll7's on imports. That is, you both base your conclusions on the particular vehicle you drive/have. Now is that wrong? No, not necessarily. But seriously, how many other Caravans can you honestly say, have as many miles as you have? When was the last time you've bought an "American vehicle"? Just for comparisons sake, my neighbor drives a 99 Grand Caravan, she already has problems with her transmission (i.e. rough shifts between 1st and 2nd). Does that sound like the Caravan you have? Certainly not. If you don't believe me then just stroll over to the Caravan posting board or go over to a local mechanic. Now, granted that every automaker has their share of lemons (e.g. Honda Odyssey with grade logic problems on transmissions), my understanding is that Chrysler knew about the faulty auto trans on their vans, for a long period of time. As for the comment made by ll7 on "Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans way ahead of the Americans" I have to agree with it 50%. There was a time when Imports were much better than domestics, just ask those who've owned imports (1980's). Ask Vince8 on this board, he thinks so too. If that wasn't the case, then why would they buy it? What possible reason could they have in supporting another country? On the other hand with American cars, you have to consider patriotic reasons/obligations on SOME purchases. As for the 1990's (92 and up), I can't say (through experience) that imports are better than domestics because the last car our family purchased was a '91 Pathfinder (106K HARD driven miles and still going strong). Nonetheless I hope that American cars now, are equal or better than imports, for America's sake! Also, the Japanese really don't have much choice in whether or not to make quality products considering they're a small island with very few resources. Am I saying that all Japanese products are better, no! But the incentives are certainly there to do so. Ex: What kind of TV, VCR do you have, I'm willing to wager, Japanese brands.... Just my $0.02.
So, because my co-workers Sienna has had electrical problems, does this count? and does this make all Toyotas junk now? I read it all over, the blind notion of if it says Toyota/Honda its just better, no questions asked. Also, you obviously don't realize why all electronics had shifted to Asia in the 60's and 70's. Cheap labor! Cheaper prices for the goods. This is what drives jobs out of the U.S. The blind faith that anything made by Honda/Toyota/Nissan is just going to be better is a stigma from the 70's and 80's. I would even say I would not have bought a chevy in those years either. In 1990 I crossed over to the darkside of GM/Ford/Dodge products. After owning several, some used some new. None gave me any reason to pay the extra cash for a perceived quality/reliabiliy advantage. Currently own 2 Fords that have been fantastic. I can rattle off numerous other family members who own Ford/Dodge/GM products who are statified also!
Vince8, Of course you can't condemn an entire make of vehicles because of one person's bad experience with one particular vehicle. The converse is also true. That was exactly the point of my post that has seemed to create such an uproar. As I said, you have to look at the experience of the vehicle and make in its entirety. I absolutely stand by my statement that as a whole, Japaneese vehicles (especially Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas) are way ahead of the Americans. Also, keep in mind that we are talking about reliability. DTKWOK, My statement is not based on any "blind" belief of Japaneese superiority. It is based on many years of research and my own and shared experiences with both import and domestic vehicle owners. 2drive, You asked for my facts. Let me quote from Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2000, pg 279, Auto Reliability. "On average, cars with a Japaneese nameplate are more reliable than European makes which are more reliable than American makes. These differences, true for many years, are now narrowing, particularly with newer models. Generally the cars most likely to be trouble-free are from the major Japaneese manufacturers - Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, and Subaru." These are not my words, they are quoted directly from Consumer Reports. I guarantee you that they have the facts (over 40 years of rating vehicles) to back their statements. Also, have you ever seen a J.D. Powers survey on quality. The last time that I saw one, I believe the majority of their top 10 were Japaneese vehicles. Perhaps someone has access to their latest report and can cite the results. Please understand that I am not trying to bash America or American products. In most cases, I believe that Americans produce superior products compared to the rest of the world. It's just that when it comes to vehicle reliability, the Japaneese have us beat.
Yes, if your friend's Sienna has electrical problems I would count it against that particular vehicle (unless it's a 1st year model). BTW, was that problem a widespread one? What year is it, if you don't mind? In the Grand Caravan's case, I would count transmission problems as a HUGE negative in a car, wouldn't you? To top it of, Chrysler has known about this problem for several years and have yet to resolve it, unlike the blowing headgaskets on the 3.8L engine for the Windstar. (Just for the record, was that issue really resolved? Any owners out there?) As for the electronics industry in Asia, it still doesn't affect or hide the fact that the Japanese looked upon an industry once dominated by America and said "Hey we could you make it better." As someone previously stated, once the Japanese get a hold of new technology (i.e. ours), they have a knack for copying it and making it better. Regarding the blind faith of imports, I can only comment that this also exists for domestics. I do not beleive that either case is acceptable. But in defense of both types of faith, its hard for a person to go to "back to the other side" once he/she has been burned by that side, either by the company, the vehicle, or both. So, you are correct in saying that it'll take about 10 years for the 70's and 80's import-advantage-quality stigma to go away (that was a mouthful ). What does everyone else think?
Sorry if my comment about your belief was rather harsh. What I meant to say was that companies/people can change. (Whether or not they actually do is debateable.) Yes, you could take many years of experience and make an educated guess in the future, but does that decision always work out, for the better/true who knows? One thing people have to factor about the Japanese people/companies is that they seem to be open to constructive criticism. They aren't hung up on "If it worked for 50 years why can't I use it now?" Vince8, you mentioned that you worked for a Japanese company as well, could you shed some light on this? On the other hand many American people/companies (notice I said MANY and not ALL or MOST) have a great sense of pride in their way of doing things, up to the point where suggested improvements are hard to implement. I use to work for an American aerospace company as an intern and believe me, they sort of look down at you if you just came in. (A simple problem was presented, I provided possible solutions, senior engineers wouldn't even entertain a look at the suggestions because I was an intern. Finally took it to dept. manager who decided to present it to the engineers, as his solutions, with my consent. Guess what? Problem solved.) Not trying to bash America; I'm proud to be an American, but does that make me perfect? No, but others definitely think they are. Just look at the arrogance of "Why do I have to learn to speak a second language? English is all I need to know." Sorry for venturing off the topic in the last paragraph, I'll get off my soapbox...
Yes, I do work for a Japanese company. I enjoy my work and like the company. They treat me well and pay me fair with bonuses and benifits. I have no complaints. I do however wonder about this inferiority complex I see around the internet when it comes to Japanese vs American know how and engineering. I spend my time fixing and improving tools for the semi-conductor industry. If you can only see some of the tools that come in and the way they are wired and configured, it would blow your mind. My whole point is the Japanese people are just that, people. They make mistakes, have problems just like any other culture or company. I have visited Japan and their standard of living is not that great. Products are expensive, their product choices are limited also. Most folks live in apartment style housing, single familiy housing is for the rich only.
Thanks for your input! Yes, the Japanese are people too and are prone to make mistakes. The important thing to focus on is how these mistakes/problems are handled. Back then (and even now for some), feedback was generally accepted only from the "seniors", the lower experienced people and the common floor mechanic had little or no say in the final product/solution. The Japanese however, valued everyone's suggestions (my understanding, anyhow). Not to pick on you Vince, but don't you feel that the company listened to your suggestions from day one? (I assume you began your career there.) Also, when it comes to engineering, America is always the trend setter. The Japanese actually look up at America's technology! Why do you think rich Japanese businessman spend so much money buying up classic automobiles, Harley Davidsons, and cowboy stuff? Because when they were little the wonders and glamours of America were presented to them. Okay, I'll go out on a limb here... Coming from an Asian background myself, I can honestly say that America leads in innovation while the Japanese are more tuned to the finer details of a technology (once they get the hang of it). Whatever the case, competition (e.g. learning from each other's work methodology) only help in producing better products. Yeah, standard of living in Japan is not great compared to here. That's why many of them make a whole bunch of money, retire, and come here!
I am not totally loyal to any one automobile manufacturer. I am currently looking to buy a new vehicle and I'm doing a lot of research. I will buy the vehicle that suits my needs best whether it's American, Japanese, or European. I have looked at many a window sticker and observed where many cars are built as well as their parts content. I encourage you all to take a look at some window stickers yourself. You may be surprised at the parts content of many different vehicles as well as where many vehicles are built. I'm sure you all know that many American and Japanese manufacturers also have joint ventures now. In addition, many American manufacturers own certain percentages of many foreign manufacturers. My point is that you can scream "buy American" or "Japanese quality" all you want. The fact of the matter is "totally" American or "totally" Japanese cars are becoming more and more rare. Take a good look around and buy what fits your need.....period.
There is no such thing as a total American, Japanese, or German automaker now. It's a global economy whether you like it or not. However some people still use the company's origins as a frame of reference. What's more, there are still people out there who just won't admit that imports were better than domestics at ONE time. Yes, buy whatever suits your needs. BTW, did you know that the older Nissan Patrols were a joint venture project between Ford and Nissan? I think Ford provided the engine and Nissan took care of the rest. (My understanding is that the Quest/Villager is also a partnership project.) Just food for thought.
I have been looking for a new truck to replace my 1994 Nissan Truck with 111000 miles on it. I see that you guys are at the age old debate of American against Japanese trucks. Well here's my 2 cents. I purchased my truck for 11500 and my co-worker purchased a Toyota Tacoma for 23000+. For the additional 11500 he got a V6, 4x4 he rarely uses, larger tires, and the Toyota 'quality'. Admittedly his truck is better, duh, but is it that much better. In his search for the ultimate quality, he missed the 2 for 1 sale at the Nissan dealership! My point is this, the vehicles that make the good reputation of any brand are usually the more expensive vehicle of their respective class and are purchased by consumers who maintain their vehicles better than most consumers. When it comes to trucks, this also applies with the exception of volume. Everyone seems to rate the import trucks above domestics. The sales gap between the two are greatly in favor of full size trucks. The reason is simple: value. I went to look at the Nissan CC and the sticker price was 23800 while at the Dodge dealership, the 5.9L V8 SLT Quad Cab truck almost loaded stickers for 25300. The Nissan price is too close to the price of a full size well equiped truck. I feel that many consumers are buying into 'quality' and miss out on the real value of the automotive market.
My point excactly! So many blindly follow the stigma of if it says Toyota/Honda or Nissan, or Mitsu, or Mazda its just better no questions asked. I have spent years now on the internet at other forums and sites and see this attitude quite often. 10-15 years ago this was probably true, now its a new ball game. I credit the imports with waking GM/Ford/Dodge up and forcing them to build quality vehicles. I have a friend who owns a Tacoma, he paid 23K+ for it also. He knew nothing about the Tacoma having the worst crash test rating, or possible headgasket problems, or an open axle, or any of the techinical aspects of the truck when comparing like models. Nissan builds a good truck, I know several owners of Nissans. Its just that Toyota has this false reputation.
You've got your facts wrong about the Tacoma's crash test results.
On the tests by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (U.S. government), the Tacoma did indeed get the worst rating for side impact collisions. However, it also got the second best rating for front impact collisions.
Moreover, on the tests by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (a not-for-profit agency), the Tacoma was rated "Acceptable" and BETTER than the Ranger, the S-10, the Frontier and the Dakota.
For what it's worth, many people think that the offset test the Insurance Institute uses is the best indicator of real world crash performance.
You know what? Someone else (Aling1) on the Pathfinder topic expressed the same idea. He/she said that the Insurance Institute's tests placed more stress on the structure of vehicle whereas the NHTSA's test relied more on the the safety restraints/options (i.e. airbags, side airbags, etc...) Anybody have any idead on this?
I watched a show called Dateline about 2 months ago on compact trucks and their safety. In all categories the Tacoma finished last, go figure? They showed the damage on side, frontal, and offset and the Tacoma buckled like crazy, go figure?
VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine rear or 4wd, 5-pass, 4 door pickup
BASE PRICE: rwd: $23,050, 4wd: $25,820
ENGINE: -Type: V6, iron block, alloy heads Bore x stroke: 3.95 x 3.32 in., 100.4 x 84.4mm Displacement: 245 cu in, 4009cc Compression ratio: 9.7:1 Engine Control System: Ford EDIS w. port fuel injection Power (SAE net): 205 bhp @ 5250 rpm Torque (SAE net): 240 lb-ft @ 3750 rpm Redline: 6250 rpm
The Explorer Sport Trac should be safer than all of the other small pickups. It is more on the Explorer side than it is on the Ranger's side. The body is very stiff. Also, 0-60 mph requires only 8.5 seconds and fuel economy is up to 20 mpg!
The local paper in Houston just ran an article with pictures about the Sport Trac. From the pictures, it appears to be a nice looking vehicle. The overall length is 180.4 in as compared to 193.1 for the Crew Cab. The bed is 50 in. long and 42 in. wide as compared to the Crew Cab's bed length of 54.7 in. and width of 59.8 in. Also, the Sport Trac's bed is composite plastic inside and out. What I don't understand is how it can be 13 in. shorter than the Crew Cab and have an equivalent amount of room in the cab. This article touts how roomy the Sport Trac's cabin is for 5 adults. Has anyone seen cabin statistics? If so, please post them. Also jam12 thanks for the J.D. Powers info.
Well, the overall length of both vehicles differs by 13 inches right? So, that means FORD must have made the cab area as big as the Crew Cab at the expense of bed length/area. Wow, a composite bed? Sounds very interesting, one problem though, how much will it cost to repair it? Remember composites are usually dealt with in a well controlled environment. That usually means $$$ and time. Nice concept, but don't think it's feasible....
From everything that I have found, including here at Edmunds, the Explorer Sport Trac is 205.7" in length. This would make it about a foot longer that the Crew Cab. Part of this could be the extra leg room in the back seat.
wpoe, Thanks for the info. I was quoting what was printed in the local paper about the overall length. It did not make sense to me. 205.7" makes more sense.
I went to the LA auto show and wanted to compare the three main contenders. The Nissan Frontier Crew Cab, the Ford Explorer Sport Trac, and the Dodge Dakota Quad Cab. My background; I have leased Fords for the last 5 years. I started with a T-Bird then went to an Explorer XLT, and ended with an Expidition XLT. I had no problems with the cars whatsoever, but understand that I had them all for only 2 years each, and nothing over 40,000 miles. I had always been pleased with the fords because of my size. I'm 6'2" and weigh anywhere from 275-300 pounds depending on the season. Yes, I'm a retired football player. So, you could imagine my excitement to see the Ford Explorer Sport Trac. I was turned onto the idea of a compact truck/SUV because whenever I needed to move something, my SUVs couldn't handle tall objects and I would be at the mercy of a truck driving friend. After the last flake out by this person, I said that's it, I'm getting a truck. Then I saw the commercial for the Ford. I said, I HAVE to have it. I called my dealer up. When is it going to be in. Oh, it should be in by the end of this year (99). It wasn't. I wasn't in a big rush to buy, so no problem. Then I see the commercials for the Dodge and the Nissan. That's what lead me to the auto show. I walk in and head to the Nissan first. I liked the way it looked, but was a little cramped for room in the back seat. I figured that I would be the ultimate test for these back seats! It was even a little hard getting out of the back (size 15 shoe). Then I got in the front. Loved the way everything just fit to my arm length, where my elbow rested, the head room, etc. Reminded me of the Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo that I was looking at. So I thought to myself, this fits as well as a SUV that's 10,000 more? I was surprised. Then on to the Dodge. I fit in the back seat much better, I liked how the back seat folded down for storage. Wasn't as impressed with the front seat though. And when I stepped back from it, it looked like a pickup truck, not a hybrid. Then onto the Ford! What, I can't get in it because it's on a platform?! What the hell?! Then why have it here? OK, it looks nice, and has the extender like the Nissan, how much? We're not sure yet, it should be comparable though. OK, when will it be at the dealers? They're there now (Jan). So I went into the auto show thinking #1. Ford, #2. Dodge, #3. Nissan. I left thinking #1. Dodge, #2. Nissan, #3. Ford. I couldn't compare the ford because there was no product. So I went home with the specs and started looking more thuroughly at the three. I went and test drove the Dodge, man did that engine whine. I stepped on the gas and saw the RPMs just shoot up! I was saying to myself, don't worry the Ford is going to kick [non-permissible content removed]! I go home and compare the HSP's and Torques. Dodge 200, Nissan, 170 (wimpy), Ford 205 (oh yeah!). It's now later in January, like around the 29th. I stop in at my Ford dealership, Number one in the nation in sales. They HAVE to have the Explorer in by now! NOT!!! Well when do you expect it in? It says we were supposed to have it in by the 21st, but I know we don't have any on our lot. Maybe by April. APRIL???!!! What the? So obviously Ford has their head up their [non-permissible content removed]! I run over to the Dodge dealership,they had their tent sale still going on. I figured I could rape some salesman because it's the end of the month and all. What am I looking at? I want payments around 300 and driveoff. Well our best deal is 2400 down (on a lease) and payments of 435. What?! My wife's credit rating is 700! Sorry, that's the best we can do. Are you serious, no other offer, cause we'll walk over to Nissan and get that! He says that his hands are tied. The manufacturers aren't offering any incentives. OK, now I'm looking at the one that I didn't even want to test drive. So, I did. What a ride, handled great. Took railroad tracks at full speed, cornered on rails and I made our 6'4" salesperson ride in the backseat to see how uncomfortable it was. Didn't hear a peep out of him. Yes, the back speakers are in a bad spot, but when someone is sitting in the back, the cushions expose the speakers better. I give them the same offer. They came back high 3 times, but each time were dropping it while I didn't budge. So, I figure that they're going down the lists of banks and have to offer the high ones first. I'm a prick when it comes to this, cause my Ford agent told me EVERYTHING about how they have to offer deals. About 15 minutes later I got exactly what I wanted. So here I am LOVING my new Nissan Frontier Crew Cab, and remembering how much I really didn't like how my Explorer handled when I had it. It really bounced around compared to the Expedition and the Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo. And I thought, boy if that handles just like an Explorer, that's going to suck. Plus, I'm getting all these looks and comments about my new Nissan and I haven't seen a Ford Explorer Sport Trac ANYWHERE! Oh yeah, for those of you waiting on the Ford, good luck in trying to get a good deal, especially since it's way past the new year.
Good to hear that you're enjoying your Nissan CC. I was wondering how you're coping with the hp "deficiencies"? I believe that Nissan's coming out with a supercharger for the 3.3 engine (210 HP/240 FT-LBS TORQUE). Also, what exactly did you mean that the speakers are exposed better when someone's sitting in the back? Just a little confused. Thanks.
I purchased a Ford Sport Trac on Friday, Feb 11. I have owned several different automobiles but non to compare with my new purchase. The back seat has so much room. I have test driven the Nissan CC and the Dodge and I am so happy I waited to drive the Ford Sport Trac.
The Ford Sport Trac is far superior to the Nissan CC. Superior in room, HP, Torque, interior quality. The SOHC V6 is a wonderful engine, quiet, responsive. Nissan CC prices will fall now that the Dodge, and Ford are out with their CC models.
The only problem with the Sport Trac is that despite all it's "superior" qualities, at the end of the day it is still a Ford Explorer. Take a look at their message board and the myriad of problems that Explorer owners are having. I'll stick with the CC.
Well I just got back from looking at the Dodge Dakota, Nissan CC, and Ford Sport Trac. I started looking for the full size trucks, but I need four real doors for the kid. Some thoughs while my Nissan is rolling past 114000. The Sport Trac is NICE!! All of the deficiencies in the Nissan are addressed in the Sport Trac and then some. The power rear window, deep bed, bed extender, and bed cover are gravy. I didn't like the rubber flooring, the front door handles or the silver around the attractive instrument cluster. The interior is the most comfortable of the 3 trucks although the Dakota has more room. The sticker is 25300. But man over at Dodge there was a Dakota CC with every option and a 5.9L V8 that stickered at 26300. I don't think anyone will debate about what the 5.9L V8 will do to the competitors in this class. Whoa, but 12 mpg city and 17 highway hurts. I believe that the Dakota CC with the V8 and that big bed appears to win out in value but the Ford is an excellent compromise. The Nissan is definitely a decent vehicle to fall back on for a sticker of 23300 but... well you get the picture. Any ideas on this new class? How much off the sticker price can we expect on all three? I've only seen Dodge: sticker 26300, sale price 23300.
I'll have to agree. But I've read it isn't even an Explorer. Its built on the Ranger frame, but Ford decided to name it after its better selling brother, the Explorer. The styling will be virtually identical to the new Explorer though. Expect ride and handling to be similar to the Ranger. My big gripe with this vehicle, as with the Nissan, is the small bed. But, if you don't need a decent sized bed, then either truck will probably work, with the ST having more interior room, especially in back, but the Nissan costing less. Me?, I've got a 4x2 Dakota Quad cab auto with the 4.7 V-8. 0-60 in 7.4 secs (according to Motor Trend) and more interior room, towing capacity, and bed size. Loaded for under $23K.
Did I mention that I get 14 mpg city, and about 18 to 19 highway mpg with that 4.7. Not bad, considering it is after all a 4200lb. truck, and that I can't keep my foot off the accelerator! I am convinced that with conservative driving, 15/19 is the norm for this engine. Also, I got the truck for $200 under invoice, after the $500 rebate. Just under $23K, with almost every option, except for the fancy C/D stereo.
My daughter bought a 98 Explorer today and I went along as a security blanket. They had one of these Sport Tracs there and I couldn't believe the price for a basic truck. $26,300 for rubber mats and el cheapo seat covers. I probably should tell you I have a Dakota Quad Cab. The size of the Ford was pretty good, in between the Nissan and the Ford. Rear seat, with front all the way back is quite a bit less than the Dakota, but I'll admit, it would probably be ok. The electric(?) rear window had been down in this mornings rain, so the seat was soaked, but that's life. I didn't drive it, but I've driven the SOHC and it's also pretty good. The new 4.7 in the Dakota is 235 hp and 295 torque and is a rocket ship, also 15 mpg! I did like the composite bed, tail gate is steel. I have one of those bed extenders, haven't used it, but will on Tuesday. I absolutely love my Dakota, concerned about the transmission problems, it's a special combo deal with the new 4.7 that started in the Grand Cherokee couple years ago, and gets a lot of bad press. I've always been a GMC/Chevy guy; where the hell are they in this race?? I figure this is the last new truck I'm buying, with retirement in a short few years. The Ford will sell like hotcakes, cause Ford has the ability to produce many versions of anything with many options. Good for them, bad for the other guys. I had talked with a couple Ford guys who saw the Sport Trac before I got my Dakota, they were kinda disappointed that it was not what they expected, I was too, but it sure looked good. By the way, the Nissan is a pretty good truck too. Be careful about there.
I just bought the Nissan SE 4x4 Crew Cab in Canada. There really wasn't much of a decision to be made because the Sport Trac isn't released yet and the Dodge Plain Jane with a manual tranny, power nothing, and no extras sells for $33k in Canada (at least that's what two dodge dealers told me). I didn't bother even looking at it because that price is ludicrous for a truck. They wanted 39k for a loaded one! Granted that is with a bigger engine and bed than the Nissan but not much else. I bought the nissan for $29800 including the bed extender. Only paid extra for PDI and Tax. Having experience with Nissan, Chrysler and Ford quality, it isn't even close, Nissan has top notch quality where chrysler isn't very good and Ford has some half decent vehicles but they can't make a tranny!
I did see the ford at the Auto show in Toronto over the weekend, and I wasn't overly impressed for the money. They start at $35k! for a small truck; too much. I actually found the back seat to be more roomy and comfortable inb the Nissan. I think that is because the Nissan seat bottom is longer. They don't try to make it look like there is more room by shrinking the seats. My 6'4" friend was with me and really couldn't get in the back seat of the Ford, but he can fit okay in the Nissan; although you wouldn't want to go any distance.
I am not sure why there is as big a price difference in Canada as compared to the US. It might be that Nissan gives you everything in a package while the US companies tend to add everything as an option so when you get fully loaded they are way more expensive. There is literally nothing else you could put on mine besides leather seats, power rear window slider, or a bigger engine; three things I would not want!
Over all my wife is very happy with our new CC as there is enough room for both our kids in their car seats in the back and we can put our front seats all the way back and be very comfortable compared to our Honda CR-V we traded. It also rides much better!!
Man are Canadian car dealers taking customers to the cleaners or what!!!!??? To Keanec, read Big Truck, Small Truck just above this. The prices are for extremely well equiped vehicles. In Texas, the Nissan at 23300 has bed liner & extender, CD/ cassette radio, sun roof, roof rack, tube rails, 16" tires, rear sliding window, cruise control and power windows / door locks !! I don't know what Ford is marketing in Canada, but the Sport Trac interior is defintely bigger than the Nissan and seems to win out in initial quality because of the stronger engine and interior space and comfort. Anyways, despite all this I am still trying to choose between the three trucks on the market and I am beginning to lean towards the Dodge. I have a 1967 Olds with a 425 c.i. 365 h.p. V8 and I have to admit I have a weakness for the 5.9L option in the Dodge. Good luck to Canadian customers!
That is price of $23300 for a fully loaded Nissan is actually expensive compared to what I paid. I have everything you mentioned except for the roof rack (didn't want it) and paid $28,800CAN. If you convert your $23300US in the states that translates to almost $34,000CAN. It sounds like people in the states are getting charged way too much for the Nissan. Maybe that is why I found a bigger difference in Canada.
I don't agree with the intitial quality being better because it has a stronger engine and better interior comfort. That is design not quality. My experiences with Fords is the quality is less than Nissan. J.D. Powers also agrees with me over the long run. So does resale values. I have many friends (yes more than 3) who are wishing they didn't buy that quality vehicle; the Ford Windstar! Every one has had multiple problems including changing the tranny 2 to 3 times, electrical problems etc..
I did not find the Sport Trac (or explorer as they call it in Canada)to be any better designed in the interior than the Nissan. The other people looking at them with me at the Auto show also found this. My 6'4" friend could not get comfotable in the Sport Trac's seats; front or rear.
I don't even want to talk about the Dodge. I am from truck country (way up in the frozen North) and mention a Dakota and most people with experience with them will tell you their quality su__s! Sorry, but if you want to get the best bang for your buck and get a vehicle that will last pick the Nissan.
I am not sure whether the Sport Trac is based on the Explorer or Ranger but both platforms have problems.
Looks like I forgot the currency difference! Your purchase is $20500US. This is good info, because I would have expected the price to decrease somewhere in this neighborhood after dealing. It seems the prices are comparable. As for the Frozen north, Texas summers are also murder on a vehicle. I have owned two Ford Ranger trucks prior to my Nissan and I still stand by the interior comfort of the Ford. My Nissan seats are the worst! The seats in the Ford are like captains chairs and were perfect for long trips. As far as mechanical problems in all three trucks, go figure that the transmission in the Nissan had to be removed within the first three months! The engine in the Nissan is stronger and aside from the 1 tranny problem, I believe the quality to be very similar in both makes. My Nissan has 115000 mi and the last Ford I owned has 80000+ mi at trade-in. As for design quality, I wonder what a 6'4" person thinks about the Nissan back seat? My wife is only 5'4" and has a hard time getting her feet in and out of the Nissan. She did not have the same experience in the Dodge or the Ford and preferred the interior of both US makes over the Nissan. While the Nissan is a good truck (and I may purchase one!),it has the smallest engine and interior in this class. These two factors make it difficult to settle for this truck upon initial comparison.
no offense, but i agree with many others... dodge is at the bottom of my list of quality vehicles, but how can you compare it to nissan or sport trac? to respond to #97 the Sport trac is based on the explorer platform (half explorer half truck) where did ranger come in? when did either platform have troubles? i havent heard anything about that part. i just bought a s-t last monday and love it!! any questions, email me! )
no offense, but i agree with many others... dodge is at the bottom of my list of quality vehicles, but how can you compare it to nissan or sport trac? to respond to #97 the Sport trac is based on the explorer platform (half explorer half truck) where did ranger come in? when did either platform have troubles? i havent heard anything about that part. i just bought a s-t last monday and love it!! any questions, email me! )
There has been a lot back and forth on the Ford, Dodge and Nissan quality issue. Look no further than the "Gold" extended warrante program offered on Edmunds. You will pay $200 more for a Dodge and Ford vs the Nissan for the Crew cab design. This difference is based on hard cold facts of the past quality history of these companies /vehicals.
PAST is the key word. Hate to burst your bubbles for those who feel Nissan "quality" is leaps and bounds ahead of Ford. Go to www.carpoint.msn.com and see for yourelf. Also just take a run through the problems folks are having right here at Edmunds with the Frontiers. The V6 Nissan is an absolute joke. At 170HP and 200ft/lbs of torque this truck barely pulls itself! TORQUE look up the definition yourself. And if you check Consumer digest, Auto.com, Popular mechanics, see how Ford does, you may be surprised. Nissan and resale don't go hand in hand either, check Kelly Blue Books and type in like modles of Fords/Nissans, Surprise! Sport Trac is the winner here folks. Its based on the Explorer platform also. I hear rumors of a V8 too! in the next couple of years.
Since the Dakota has been brought into this discussion, I should say something about it. I don't know if anybody in here has ever owned one, but I'm on my second now, a 2000 quad cab. I've only put 60K miles total on em, but no problems yet. Nissan may have slightly better reliability, as Toyotas probably do to, but believe you me, Nissans have plenty of there own problems. Don't fool yourself. And I had nothing but problems with the only Ford I ever owned, a Taurus, and I swore them off for life. As for the Tundra, my local dealer was once so arrogant to me, and has such terrible service, I swore them off too. Between the wife and I, I've put 200K miles on 5 different Dodges now, and no serious problems, although we never kept anything past about 60K. The rap on Dodges consists mostly of tranny problems. Other than that, theyre no better or worse than most other vehicles. Also, theyre still living down a bad reputation from the 80s (remember the K-car, and numerous other winners?). I believe they build pretty good cars now, and Cons.Reports apparently agrees. Look closely at the circles in their 2000 survey report. They look at least average to above average in most categories, yet they get a poor rating. Sounds like even CR is looking to the past, and not giving credit for strides made in the past 5 to 10 years. As for the trannys, theyre still touchy, but if they arent abused, and they are maintained properly, including the proper fluids (they are supposed to use a special fluid, and many people just put the generic stuff in) they should last. Anyway, thats what the warranties are for, if you feel you need it. Finally, a big consideration for me, as well as most others, is looks, and imo Dodge is the hands down winner there, as with most of their lineup, but thats just my $.02.
I'm sure that an extended warranty for a Mercedes costs more than one for a VW, but that doesnt make it neccessarily less reliable. There are lots of factors included in their pricing.
I agree with you about the looks. I think the Dodge is the handsdown winner. I have heard that there are problems with the Nissan's engine before. I am hoping they have corrected this, they usually do. Historically, the Japanese always have much smaller engines than there North American counterparts. In many cases this is a problem but not in mine. It has plenty of power for what I use it for; towing a camper in the summer & a snowmobile in the winter. Everybody says the Honda CR-V engine lacks power but I was able to outpull ford Windstars with 3.9l engine easily. The only problem was the rating which was too low for my 2000lb trailer. The engine was fine.
I think that each of these trucks have there good and bad points, but they are all woth buying. The only problem in my area is the List pirce of the Dodge fully loaded is $39,000CAN and the Ford is set to be very close to that. I paid $29,800+taxes for the fully loaded Nissan (and I just opened my Junk mail last night and found a coupon from Nissan saying I would get $500 cash if I buy a Crew Cab!! and I qualify for it!). Granted the engine is smaller, and it doesn't have leather seats, but the price difference for me is just too much. That above evrything else is what made me decide to buy the Nissan.
The sport trac is a derivative of the Explorer. It uses a lengthened version of the Explorer's frame and suspension. The body is Explorer from the C-pilar forward,as is the interior trim. Of course, the Explorer itself is based upon the Ranger. Ford first updated the Explorer suspension to get rid of the I-beam and the SOHC is an Explorer only option.
By the numbers, I would agree with you - but by action I would disagree. Both my friend and I were pulling camping trailers; mine 2000lbs, his 2500lbs. My CR-V was loaded down more so than his Van. We were both going about 45min outside ofe our hometown to a trailer park. His Windstar was actually floored the whole way and he couldn't get it going faster than 55mph (It is a fairly hilly trip although not like in the mountains). Going up the hill he would actually slow down to 45mph or slower. I on the other hand didn't even have to put my CR-V in overdrive and Had no problem keeping a steady 60mph up the hills. It did gear down and wine a bit but not much. I passed the windstar going up hill very easily while he was floored. Not once did I ever floor my vehicle.
Just to see what would happen, he pulled my trailer, and guess what? He was able to pull it a little better but not as easily as me. He did bring the Windstar in and they said there was no problem. We figure it could be another Tranny problem (he is on his 3rd @ 55000miles). Do I think this should be the case? NO! I realize the that particular Windstar must have a problem but Ford didn't know what it was. I did sell my CR-V because I was afraid of putting too much strain on it's brakes, frame, transmission and engine; but not becuase it couldn't pull well. Maybe the Torque on the max Windstar is at a high RPM? Maybe the Windstar is much heavier and overall has too much wind resistance....I don't know the reason and I am certainly not a Car buff to know much about HP & Torque and stuff, but I can say my particular CR-V had more pulling power (for whatever reason) than my friends 1996 3.9L Windstar. He agrees too.
Just because the Van has a higher rating and a V6, does that mean it can pull better. I assume and was told the CR-V has a low rating is because of the frame and brakes and such; not because of the size of the engine. Presuming that the Van is a much bigger vehicle, you would think it would have a heavier duty frame and other such stuff that allows it to be "rated" higher.
There must have been somthing severely wrong with the Windstar. You can check weights, torque, HP, towing capacity ratings right here at Edmunds. The is no way a CRV can out tow a Windstar, its mechanically impossible. The CRV has one of the weakest frames, drivetrain, and engine in its class.
Comments
Your assessment of American quality is as "blind" as those of ll7's on imports. That is, you both base your conclusions on the particular vehicle you drive/have. Now is that wrong? No, not necessarily. But seriously, how many other Caravans can you honestly say, have as many miles as you have? When was the last time you've bought an "American vehicle"? Just for comparisons sake, my neighbor drives a 99 Grand Caravan, she already has problems with her transmission (i.e. rough shifts between 1st and 2nd). Does that sound like the Caravan you have? Certainly not. If you don't believe me then just stroll over to the Caravan posting board or go over to a local mechanic. Now, granted that every automaker has their share of lemons (e.g. Honda Odyssey with grade logic problems on transmissions), my understanding is that Chrysler knew about the faulty auto trans on their vans, for a long period of time.
As for the comment made by ll7 on "Hondas, Toyotas, and Nissans way ahead of the Americans" I have to agree with it 50%. There was a time when Imports were much better than domestics, just ask those who've owned imports (1980's). Ask Vince8 on this board, he thinks so too. If that wasn't the case, then why would they buy it? What possible reason could they have in supporting another country? On the other hand with American cars, you have to consider patriotic reasons/obligations on SOME purchases.
As for the 1990's (92 and up), I can't say (through experience) that imports are better than domestics because the last car our family purchased was a '91 Pathfinder (106K HARD driven miles and still going strong). Nonetheless I hope that American cars now, are equal or better than imports, for America's sake!
Also, the Japanese really don't have much choice in whether or not to make quality products considering they're a small island with very few resources. Am I saying that all Japanese products are better, no! But the incentives are certainly there to do so. Ex: What kind of TV, VCR do you have, I'm willing to wager, Japanese brands.... Just my $0.02.
I read it all over, the blind notion of if it says Toyota/Honda its just better, no questions asked.
Also, you obviously don't realize why all electronics had shifted to Asia in the 60's and 70's. Cheap labor! Cheaper prices for the goods. This is what drives jobs out of the U.S.
The blind faith that anything made by Honda/Toyota/Nissan is just going to be better is a stigma from the 70's and 80's. I would even say I would not have bought a chevy in those years either. In 1990 I crossed over to the darkside of GM/Ford/Dodge products. After owning several, some used some new. None gave me any reason to pay the extra cash for a perceived quality/reliabiliy advantage. Currently own 2 Fords that have been fantastic. I can rattle off numerous other family members who own Ford/Dodge/GM products who are statified also!
Of course you can't condemn an entire make of vehicles because of one person's bad experience with one particular vehicle. The converse is also true. That was exactly the point of my post that has seemed to create such an uproar. As I said, you have to look at the experience of the vehicle and make in its entirety.
I absolutely stand by my statement that as a whole, Japaneese vehicles (especially Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas) are way ahead of the Americans. Also, keep in mind that we are talking about reliability.
DTKWOK,
My statement is not based on any "blind" belief of Japaneese superiority. It is based on many years of research and my own and shared experiences with both import and domestic vehicle owners.
2drive,
You asked for my facts. Let me quote from Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2000, pg 279, Auto Reliability. "On average, cars with a Japaneese nameplate are more reliable than European makes which are more reliable than American makes. These differences, true for many years, are now narrowing, particularly with newer models. Generally the cars most likely to be trouble-free are from the major Japaneese manufacturers - Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, and Subaru." These are not my words, they are quoted directly from Consumer Reports. I guarantee you that they have the facts (over 40 years of rating vehicles) to back their statements.
Also, have you ever seen a J.D. Powers survey on quality. The last time that I saw one, I believe the majority of their top 10 were Japaneese vehicles. Perhaps someone has access to their latest report and can cite the results.
Please understand that I am not trying to bash America or American products. In most cases, I believe that Americans produce superior products compared to the rest of the world. It's just that when it comes to vehicle reliability, the Japaneese have us beat.
As for the electronics industry in Asia, it still doesn't affect or hide the fact that the Japanese looked upon an industry once dominated by America and said "Hey we could you make it better." As someone previously stated, once the Japanese get a hold of new technology (i.e. ours), they have a knack for copying it and making it better.
Regarding the blind faith of imports, I can only comment that this also exists for domestics. I do not beleive that either case is acceptable. But in defense of both types of faith, its hard for a person to go to "back to the other side" once he/she has been burned by that side, either by the company, the vehicle, or both. So, you are correct in saying that it'll take about 10 years for the 70's and 80's import-advantage-quality stigma to go away (that was a mouthful
DTKWOK
One thing people have to factor about the Japanese people/companies is that they seem to be open to constructive criticism. They aren't hung up on "If it worked for 50 years why can't I use it now?" Vince8, you mentioned that you worked for a Japanese company as well, could you shed some light on this? On the other hand many American people/companies (notice I said MANY and not ALL or MOST) have a great sense of pride in their way of doing things, up to the point where suggested improvements are hard to implement. I use to work for an American aerospace company as an intern and believe me, they sort of look down at you if you just came in. (A simple problem was presented, I provided possible solutions, senior engineers wouldn't even entertain a look at the suggestions because I was an intern. Finally took it to dept. manager who decided to present it to the engineers, as his solutions, with my consent. Guess what? Problem solved.) Not trying to bash America; I'm proud to be an American, but does that make me perfect? No, but others definitely think they are. Just look at the arrogance of "Why do I have to learn to speak a second language? English is all I need to know."
Sorry for venturing off the topic in the last paragraph, I'll get off my soapbox...
DTKWOK
I do however wonder about this inferiority complex I see around the internet when it comes to Japanese vs American know how and engineering. I spend my time fixing and improving tools for the semi-conductor industry. If you can only see some of the tools that come in and the way they are wired and configured, it would blow your mind. My whole point is the Japanese people are just that, people. They make mistakes, have problems just like any other culture or company. I have visited Japan and their standard of living is not that great. Products are expensive, their product choices are limited also. Most folks live in apartment style housing, single familiy housing is for the rich only.
Also, when it comes to engineering, America is always the trend setter. The Japanese actually look up at America's technology! Why do you think rich Japanese businessman spend so much money buying up classic automobiles, Harley Davidsons, and cowboy stuff? Because when they were little the wonders and glamours of America were presented to them.
Okay, I'll go out on a limb here... Coming from an Asian background myself, I can honestly say that America leads in innovation while the Japanese are more tuned to the finer details of a technology (once they get the hang of it). Whatever the case, competition (e.g. learning from each other's work methodology) only help in producing better products.
Yeah, standard of living in Japan is not great compared to here. That's why many of them make a whole bunch of money, retire, and come here!
There is no such thing as a total American, Japanese, or German automaker now. It's a global economy whether you like it or not. However some people still use the company's origins as a frame of reference. What's more, there are still people out there who just won't admit that imports were better than domestics at ONE time. Yes, buy whatever suits your needs. BTW, did you know that the older Nissan Patrols were a joint venture project between Ford and Nissan? I think Ford provided the engine and Nissan took care of the rest. (My understanding is that the Quest/Villager is also a partnership project.) Just food for thought.
I have a friend who owns a Tacoma, he paid 23K+ for it also. He knew nothing about the Tacoma having the worst crash test rating, or possible headgasket problems, or an open axle, or any of the techinical aspects of the truck when comparing like models.
Nissan builds a good truck, I know several owners of Nissans. Its just that Toyota has this false reputation.
On the tests by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (U.S. government), the Tacoma did indeed get the worst rating for side impact collisions. However, it also got the second best rating for front impact collisions.
Moreover, on the tests by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (a not-for-profit agency), the Tacoma was rated "Acceptable" and BETTER than the Ranger, the S-10, the Frontier and the Dakota.
For what it's worth, many people think that the offset test the Insurance Institute uses is the best indicator of real world crash performance.
Check it out for yourself:
http://www.hwysafety.org/
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
VEHICLE TYPE: front-engine rear or 4wd, 5-pass, 4 door pickup
BASE PRICE: rwd: $23,050, 4wd: $25,820
ENGINE:
-Type: V6, iron block, alloy heads
Bore x stroke: 3.95 x 3.32 in., 100.4 x 84.4mm
Displacement: 245 cu in, 4009cc
Compression ratio: 9.7:1
Engine Control System: Ford EDIS w. port fuel injection
Power (SAE net): 205 bhp @ 5250 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 240 lb-ft @ 3750 rpm
Redline: 6250 rpm
The Explorer Sport Trac should be safer than all of the other small pickups. It is more on the Explorer side than it is on the Ranger's side. The body is very stiff. Also, 0-60 mph requires only 8.5 seconds and fuel economy is up to 20 mpg!
The overall length is 180.4 in as compared to 193.1 for the Crew Cab. The bed is 50 in. long and 42 in. wide as compared to the Crew Cab's bed length of 54.7 in. and width of 59.8 in. Also, the Sport Trac's bed is composite plastic inside and out. What I don't understand is how it can be 13 in. shorter than the Crew Cab and have an equivalent amount of room in the cab. This article touts how roomy the Sport Trac's cabin is for 5 adults. Has anyone seen cabin statistics? If so, please post them. Also jam12 thanks for the J.D. Powers info.
DTKWOK
Nissan CC prices will fall now that the Dodge, and Ford are out with their CC models.
They had one of these Sport Tracs there and I couldn't believe the price for a basic truck. $26,300 for rubber mats and el cheapo seat covers.
I probably should tell you I have a Dakota Quad Cab. The size of the Ford was pretty good, in between the Nissan and the Ford. Rear seat, with front all the way back is quite a bit less than the Dakota, but I'll admit, it would probably be ok. The electric(?) rear window had been down in this mornings rain, so the seat was soaked, but that's life. I didn't drive it, but I've driven the SOHC and it's also pretty good. The new 4.7 in the Dakota is 235 hp and 295 torque and is a rocket ship, also 15 mpg! I did like the composite bed, tail gate is steel.
I have one of those bed extenders, haven't used it, but will on Tuesday.
I absolutely love my Dakota, concerned about the transmission problems, it's a special combo deal with the new 4.7 that started in the
Grand Cherokee couple years ago, and gets a lot of bad press.
I've always been a GMC/Chevy guy; where the hell are they in this race??
I figure this is the last new truck I'm buying, with retirement in a short few years. The Ford will sell like hotcakes, cause Ford has the ability to produce many versions of anything with many options. Good for them, bad for the other guys. I had talked with a couple Ford guys who saw the Sport Trac before I got my Dakota, they were kinda disappointed that it was not what they expected, I was too, but it sure looked good. By the way, the Nissan is a pretty good truck too.
Be careful about there.
I did see the ford at the Auto show in Toronto over the weekend, and I wasn't overly impressed for the money. They start at $35k! for a small truck; too much. I actually found the back seat to be more roomy and comfortable inb the Nissan. I think that is because the Nissan seat bottom is longer. They don't try to make it look like there is more room by shrinking the seats. My 6'4" friend was with me and really couldn't get in the back seat of the Ford, but he can fit okay in the Nissan; although you wouldn't want to go any distance.
I am not sure why there is as big a price difference in Canada as compared to the US. It might be that Nissan gives you everything in a package while the US companies tend to add everything as an option so when you get fully loaded they are way more expensive. There is literally nothing else you could put on mine besides leather seats, power rear window slider, or a bigger engine; three things I would not want!
Over all my wife is very happy with our new CC as there is enough room for both our kids in their car seats in the back and we can put our front seats all the way back and be very comfortable compared to our Honda CR-V we traded. It also rides much better!!
I don't agree with the intitial quality being better because it has a stronger engine and better interior comfort. That is design not quality. My experiences with Fords is the quality is less than Nissan. J.D. Powers also agrees with me over the long run. So does resale values. I have many friends (yes more than 3) who are wishing they didn't buy that quality vehicle; the Ford Windstar! Every one has had multiple problems including changing the tranny 2 to 3 times, electrical problems etc..
I did not find the Sport Trac (or explorer as they call it in Canada)to be any better designed in the interior than the Nissan. The other people looking at them with me at the Auto show also found this. My 6'4" friend could not get comfotable in the Sport Trac's seats; front or rear.
I don't even want to talk about the Dodge. I am from truck country (way up in the frozen North) and mention a Dakota and most people with experience with them will tell you their quality su__s! Sorry, but if you want to get the best bang for your buck and get a vehicle that will last pick the Nissan.
I am not sure whether the Sport Trac is based on the Explorer or Ranger but both platforms have problems.
to respond to #97 the Sport trac is based on the explorer platform (half explorer half truck) where did ranger come in? when did either platform have troubles? i havent heard anything about that part.
i just bought a s-t last monday and love it!! any questions, email me!
to respond to #97 the Sport trac is based on the explorer platform (half explorer half truck) where did ranger come in? when did either platform have troubles? i havent heard anything about that part.
i just bought a s-t last monday and love it!! any questions, email me!
This difference is based on hard cold facts of the
past quality history of these companies /vehicals.
And if you check Consumer digest, Auto.com, Popular mechanics, see how Ford does, you may be surprised. Nissan and resale don't go hand in hand either, check Kelly Blue Books and type in like modles of Fords/Nissans, Surprise!
Sport Trac is the winner here folks. Its based on the Explorer platform also. I hear rumors of a V8 too! in the next couple of years.
I think that each of these trucks have there good and bad points, but they are all woth buying. The only problem in my area is the List pirce of the Dodge fully loaded is $39,000CAN and the Ford is set to be very close to that. I paid $29,800+taxes for the fully loaded Nissan (and I just opened my Junk mail last night and found a coupon from Nissan saying I would get $500 cash if I buy a Crew Cab!! and I qualify for it!). Granted the engine is smaller, and it doesn't have leather seats, but the price difference for me is just too much. That above evrything else is what made me decide to buy the Nissan.
Just to see what would happen, he pulled my trailer, and guess what? He was able to pull it a little better but not as easily as me. He did bring the Windstar in and they said there was no problem. We figure it could be another Tranny problem (he is on his 3rd @ 55000miles). Do I think this should be the case? NO! I realize the that particular Windstar must have a problem but Ford didn't know what it was. I did sell my CR-V because I was afraid of putting too much strain on it's brakes, frame, transmission and engine; but not becuase it couldn't pull well. Maybe the Torque on the max Windstar is at a high RPM? Maybe the Windstar is much heavier and overall has too much wind resistance....I don't know the reason and I am certainly not a Car buff to know much about HP & Torque and stuff, but I can say my particular CR-V had more pulling power (for whatever reason) than my friends 1996 3.9L Windstar. He agrees too.
Here are Edmunds.com statistics on leg room:
Sport Trac:
Front Leg Room: 42.2 in.
Rear Leg Room: 37.8 in.
Dodge Q-Cab
Front Leg Room: 41.9 in.
Rear Leg Room: 36 in.
Nissan Crew Cab
Front Leg Room: 41.4 in.
Rear Leg Room: 30.7 in.
The Sport Trac clearly has more legroom than the other vehicles.