By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I Stopped off at a dealer last night and found the guide you were referring to. They had one left on the rack, they must be popular. On the back page it covers general trailering tips. It says;
-------------------------
Driving with an Automatic Overdrive Transmission
With certain car and compact truck automatic overdrive transmissions, towing - especially in hilly areas - may result in excessive shifting between overdrive and the next lower gear.
If this occurs, it is recommended that the overdrive gear be locked out to eliminate the condition and provide steadier performance (see your vehicle's Owners Guide for information.)
When there is no excessive shifting, use the overdrive gear for optimum fuel economy.
Overdrive also may be locked out to obtain engine braking on downgrades.
-------------------------
This is the type of information I was looking for. Its not so much right and wrong as it is black and white. "IF" I ever bring in my ST with transmission problems and the service manager asks if I tow in overdrive (even if I decide not to tow in overdrive) I can point to this guide and say why do you ask.
However the book leaves the phrase "excessive shifting" to your own conclusions. My initial thoughts are once per minute or more is excessive.
There aren't any Nissan dealers near me so I could not look for a towing guide.
Instead of getting insulted, it would have been extremely easy to justify your purchase, eg. size, comfort, handling, etc... The F150 is a truck, the ST is, as you say, a higher riding tougher car with a box! Actually it reminds me of an El Camino on steroids.
FYI, and Naved's I happen to be 35 as of January, my wife is 34 and I have 2 kids in car seats. I also have an undergraduate business degree, major in marketing and finance, as well as an MBA. My wife has a Bscn in Nursing and is a nurse manager. My wife drives the truck for work and we don't even do minor off-roading, although we do tow plenty with it nothing over 2000lbs. Now, is that not the STs target market? I am only giving this info to prove naved's point (as well as mine).
Driving home, I noticed beside those 4 door F150 were "sporty" not "luxury" STs. Mud flaps, aggressive off-road tires and all! I even recall going to the Toronto Auto show (the same day I picked up my crew cab with 3 car seat points) and saw a yellow, yup, yellow ST with bikes in the back with a bed extender! Seemed very similar to layouts in the Nissan booth for the Xterra and CC. Must have been seeing things both times as that wouldn't be the target market of the ST, it couldn't be, could it? (for FordST - that's sarcasm).
All laughing aside, I stand by my earlier posted comments about both vehicles being in the same market. As a whole, I don't think Ford is only trying to get the upper end of the market. I think they are targeting the whole market, with different themes to go after different parts. It is quite apparent they want to keep Explorer owners in the fold by offering alternatives. That is only one of there objectives. If they only wanted to do that, they wouldn't offer such a base vehicle that competes directly with Nissan.
The reason I bought the CC doesn't include it being more of a truck than the ST. Looks - clean lines - was a major part. Price/value came into the picture - the same optioned ST was $8000can more than an equal CC. Past Ford & Nissan ownership experience was a part. Dealership service played a part. Status didn't. I think that if I was to have bought next year, it would have been a tougher decision. I think the new CC is a little tough looking (it looks closer to the ST) and the prices will be closer with the ST not being so new. I wouls also be able to get some feedback on quality issues (if any)on the ST.I think the difference would have come down to dealership service.
IMHO, I really think it is streching it to make the comment that because taxi companies use domestic vehicles, the reliablity must be better.
I just went to my Nissan dealer and talked to the service dept. We engauged about the O/D conversation. I acted like I had friends that had trucks and that this one was my first, told them that some of my friends told me I could use overdrive and some said I couldn't what did they recommend. One of the guys(svc. writer) owns a XE w/a 5 speed and he told me that you shouldn't tow in O/D that its only meant for optimal fuel economy on flat surfaces. I asked him to show me something that Nissan prints that says that I can't tow in O/D. Of course he couldn't but he told me to call 1-800-NISSAN1 and ask them, which I will. I also asked them(all four) if I did tow in O/D and burned out the O/D or the tranny how would Nissan or the service dept. know and would it be covered? They all told that theres noway to know why the tranny could fail and that it would be covered no matter what, even if I told them that I towed in O/D. HeHeHe...I know what you're thinking and no, I asked, they wouldn't put that in writing! Just to let you guys know, I'm not trying to prove anybody wrong(nobody said I was but rather clearing up my reason), I just want to know and why no of these people in this industry know. Towing is a big part of my business and I sell and market to well educated clients, so far I haven't had anybody dispute my recommendations. At this point that's really what it is my recommendations. I think what we are going to find it probablly depends on the vehicle. i.e. I used a 1995 Dodge 3500 2wd w/Cummins and towed a 6500lb. rig in O/D and ran 55mph and had no problems. Ok I'm going to call Nissan now, I'll let you guys know.
Speaking in general not specificly about any particular vehicle.
Again IMHO!
If I tow for a long distance with the Overdrive off the engine will be at a higher RPM for a longer period of time. That would make the engine run hotter and I assume also put more wear on the engine. Now "IF" something must wear I would prefer it be clutches and not bearings.
The reason I think I would prefer transmission wear over engine wear is I assume it would be less expensive and less intrusive to repair.
So that leads back to my opinion that if the Transmission is not shifting excessively then what is the logic in turning off Overdrive.
Thats just something in the back of my mind that I did not yet mention.
I called Nissan, got sick of listening to Bach. I'll call again.
Jim,
> naved,
>
> Not that I wanted to get back into this thread but
> ok one more time just for you. First nice of you
> to jump in so late?
>
I do not know about you (or others) but I can say about myself that I have neither time nor energy to keep on replying to posts that I do not find worthy.
> Second, do you take the time to read your own
> posts?
I think, I only posted ONCE here before and I do not know what other post"S" are you refering to?
> Who are your trying to slam, me? ford?
> yourself?
I leave this on your (reading) comprehension...
> Its obvious that you skimmed my posts and
> picked out various passages to reply to but did
> you read the whole thread?
To me your first post was good enough to start with, lets not get to "the whole thread" thing. I did want to write a book!
> Your Item #1,
> Sounds like you are one of the people you refer
> to. You are commenting about me having an opinion.
Having an opinion is one thing, hinting/suggesting/thinking/exhibiting that you are the ONLY wise guy in the bunch of dumb people is another. I respect your opinion, but I (certainly) do not think it's the right one!
> You'll notice I said "in my opinion". Do you have
> a point to make or was your point to just slam my
> opinion?
I care less for "slam"ing anyone's opinion, I have a lot of other better things to do!
> Your Item #2,
> When you disagree with someone you have an opinion
> just like me and everybody else. If you want to
> debate your opinion, great. That's what the list is
> for. So if you have a point to make, post it.
I begin to feel that you are more into debating your opinion than expressing your opinion!
Yes, I have posted my point(s), thank you.
*** Again, I do not have time to start CYBER wars (unlike you do/did). ***
> Yes you could easily find a 35 year old driving a
> CC but your comment shows me either you didn't read
> the whole thread or you have no understanding of
> marketing.
Here we go again on your authoritaive "marketing" lessons...
> Your Item #3,
> Yep I said ALL stats are being pulled from sales
> materials. You should have also read in other
> posts I asked if there was an independent source.
> So far everyone who responded got numbers from
> sales material or manufacturers web sites. My point
> was, manufacturers probably make the numbers look as good as possible.
> I'll equate the numbers to
> crash tests. Do you prefer crash tests done by
> Ford/Nissan or tests done by the Insurance
> Institute. Yes, the government regulates and
> monitors the manufacturers crash tests. But most
> people still prefer the Insurance Tests. Why? I
> guess because they are independent. So is there
> someone who regulates and verifies engine specs?
> Can I get the specs from their independent tests?
This is really out of scope (to explain)... But let me ask you this, do you expect that, instead of manufactures, Martians will come down on earth and submit/publish the stats?
(Let me take my previous statement back - Thinking along the same lines as you think of (the evil, biased?) government (vs consumer-caring insurance companies)... you may say that the Martians are not "independent" either; they are from a different planet and have their own interests, right?)
> That was my question, explain to me your problem
> with it.
Let me make myself (even more) clear to you, I do not have any problem, because I am not the one making big claims like you do.
> You didn't mention what you do, but if you have a
> marketing department at your job ask one of them
> what the definition of a "Target Market" is in
> relation to like products. Then read back through
> my posts and let me know where you disagree. I'm
> interested in hearing your opinion.
Before I go talk to my marketing department (assuming absurdly that I/they do not have any better thing to do), would you be kind enough to enlighten "us" (since aparently I am not the only one here) with the ONLY RIGHT terminology of the term Target Market (Jim's version, of course)! - not to forget, so far your explaination is gibberish
Would you also care to let me know (IN WRITING *ahem*) where did you pull out those age groups that you posted (earlier)! Please do not tell me that those group ranges were not IN WRITING somewhere/place and were mere figment of your imagination
> As far as your comment to Vince8 IMHO, sounds like
> you need to take a little "do un to other" advice
> yourself.
Thanks for (another) "humble" opinion, I should be fine!
Just another thought, since you have already described your "superior" driving behavior/style -I would NOT be buying any used car from you (may be free though)!
Also, since you are a computer scientist (I guess?) I would like to take the liberty to assume that you have done IRC and knows the commands used on the net; therefore, I am now doing:
/ignore fordsprottrac
-Naved.
P.S.
For everybody else... Enjoy the ride !!!
It is basically going to come down to the operator looking at each situation and exercising their judgement.I know that if I did not have a heavy load and I was going over flat country,I would sure give it a try in OD and decide from there.
The best part of your post is the last part where you turned on ignore. I can't thank you enough for that.
I am an engineer and am trying to look at this logically. Overdrive is just another gear ratio, like first, or second, etc. The only difference, is that in the other gears, the engine turns faster than the driveshaft, while in overdrive, the engine turns slower than the driveshaft. At a given highway speed, the driveshaft is going to turn the same speed, no matter what gear the transmission is in. So at 55mph, the output of the transmission will be turning the same speed with over drive off or on. The only difference is that with overdrive, the input to the transmission is turning slower. With the same output speed and slower input speed, it would seem that overdrive would cause less wear.
My opinion is that unless there is a design flaw and the overdrive gears are designed weaker than the other gears, there should be no reason to turn off overdrive when towing, unless it starts hunting in and out of overdrive. And this is no different from the other gears. If you are towing at 35mph, and the transmission keeps shifting from 2nd to 3rd, you should either change speed or shift from drive into second.
Second, I now agree if your tranny is not hunting and your engine is not lugging (in a M/T) then od is okay.
I think jeff555 points are from a knowledgable source, so I take them as being good points. The only thing I worry about is the point about the OD might not be engineered as strong as the other gears. Car companies have been known to cut corners and I would hate to wear out my tranny after the warranty. Is there any way of having a Tranny repair person letting us know if this is/isn't the case? If we can get that verified then maybe this whole issue can be put to bed and we can reach a consensus on using OD.
Just a thought.
I'm not trying to sound like an [non-permissible content removed] but, if your going to sell something know your damn product! I feel cofindent enough that I could answer pretty much any question on any of the brands of motors or boats that I sell, if I can't immediately I'll get the answer. I'm not saying this as a challenge, but rather in frustration. It's so simple, WHAT THE HECK DOES THE MANUFACTURE RECOMMEND? This subject, is not new. For some people it's part of why you buy a truck. As a saleman or service writer I might want to know. I mean I spoke to a service writer that owns a damn C.C. and he tows with it and he does know!
Now obviously, I don't mean every salesman, I think you guys know what I'm talking about. Part of a good salesman is to educate the potential customer on his/her product. I don't think that I'm the smartest guy out there. What it is rather, I do alot of research and comparision before I buy something(of great value) and it bugs me when simple questions can't be answered.
I think your best shot at Nissan right now is if Nissan has a towing guide like Fords. I don't think Nissan will provide something in writing. I'll bet it will take the entire Board of Directors to get that fax unless they can find some pre-printed material for you. Once its in black & white its legal.
Don't misunderstand me I'm not knocking Nissan. If you were calling Ford and asking for a written statement you would have just as much luck.
Oh, I forgot to add that she kept telling me that my Nissan knew the answer to this question, but was being lazy and not telling me.(not to stray from the subject but it really amazes me how unprofessional the American workforce has seemed to have gotten...I didn't need to hear that)
What I was hoping to get written from them was...maybe something that was printed for the service managers or something about the use of overdrive, I don't know. I can see what your saying...it's going to be a long shot.
What you said is true,and it looks good on paper and it would be entirely true in a manual transmission.We have to remember that we are talking about a transmission that has clutch packs with steel plates in between as well as a reverse and an overdrive clutch band.There is a minimal amount of planetary gearing in the trans.The different manufacturers build their transmissions with different internal tolerances,clutch materials,and vary on the amount of clutch discs make up a low,intermediate or high clutch pack.We have to also take into consideration that some manufacturers utilize lock up torque converters while others do not.Also the manufacturer may have the computer control the shifting.Each manufacturer determines the best combination for the widest range of uses for the particular vehicle and drivetrain combination.It may be that some shift points are designed at a certain engine rpm and that may translate to a speed that you would travel in the city that would cause it to "hunt".On others this may not be the case.I think we can agree that it is the "hunting" which will result in the damage to the trans.It causes excess heat which translates into slippage and more heat.
If you go up a grade with the OD on and your speed drops off,the trans will drop out of OD to compensate,you then gain torque and speed and you may be able to reacquire your previous speed until your engine loses rpm again.Once you crest your grade and you have OD on you lose engine braking.
We seem to be trying to apply a general statement to specific vehicles.Maybe that should not be the case.Maybe we should look at the general statement about OD as advice of a conservative nature which in some way could apply.
keanc,I can understand your statement about the gauge.I only suggested it because it will give you 2 important pieces of information.One it will tell you how hard your transmission is working,and it will help you if your vehicle runs hot.I have seen a few vehicles that have had overheating problems and it turns out it is their transmission causing it.The money you spend on the gauge could save you alot later.
You've made the most sense out of anything I've heard yet(the explanation). Like I've suggested in previous posts, I also agree with you that it's going to depend on the vehicle and it's design. I (after burning up a S-10 tranny myself) also suggested a tranny cooler on ANY vehicle that's going to do alot of towing. In the case of your suggestion of a gauge, the Nissan according to the manual is equiped with a warning light when the trans. gets too hot, is a good one if one wants to monitor the tranny's temp.
Also remember that in addition to obviously hunting in and out of OD, the trans may also unlock the torque converter in order to provide more torque to pull the higher gear (you can see this happen on the tach, as the rpms increase, even though it's not in 3rd) and this slippage creates a lot more heat than locked up in 3rd.
By leaving it in 3rd the torque converter will be locked up tight (no slippage), the leverage is better, the power path is straight-through (1:1), the engine spins faster but this actually allows it to shed more heat because the water pump and fan are running faster.
Basic rule is on a slight grade or into a headwind, if when you pull it out of OD into 3rd the vehicle picks up speed slightly or you can back off the gas a bit, or you see the trans temp start to drop - you should leave it there rather than trying to pull the higher gear. On level roads at reasonable speeds overdrive is fine and should pose no problems.
Statement of Horsepower Rating of Engine
9950. Any advertisement, brochure, owner's manual, or sales manual relating to any gasoline-powered motor vehicle of a type subject to registration with a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating of under 6,000 pounds of 1972 or later year model which contains any reference to the horsepower of the engine of the vehicle shall state only the Society of Automotive Engineers horsepower rating of such engine, as installed (net), as determined by S.A.E. Standard J1349.
Amended Ch. 1212, Stats. 1986. Effective January 1, 1987.
This was taken from the California Vehicle codes.The SAE standard is the basis for the testing and proceedures they utilize,taking into account barometric pressure,temperature etc.It leaves hardly any variation in the end result of the test.I did not check other states,but they may have a similar statute on the books. I hope this helps clarify my earlier point.
Aha! Thats all that I was asking. Is there an independant source that verifies engine specs. I never knew what SAE was. "Society of Automotive Engineers". They would be the Independant people who level the playing field and design standardized tests.
So I guess the SAE people are actually Martians.
Seriously though, that is Exactly what I was asking in my previous post. And SAE is the answer. You point is Almost crystal clear.
Now, do you know the answer to this (cuz I don't)
What does it mean when Torque/HP is given at different RPM ranges.
What is the advantage of a given # at a higher RPM.
What is the advantage of a given # at a lower RPM.
I have to assume that hp/torque at higher and lower RPM's must be an advantage and a disadvantage depending on the condition.
Whoops Ford just called. My Bed Extender is in!
YeeHa. Now I just need the Tounnau Cover.
Only problem was at the end the commercial showed guess what? You got it; a Ford logo! It was advertising the all new Sport Trac! What market is Ford going after anyways? I guess the Nissan with its carpeted floor has too much luxury to do this.
All kidding aside, I think this commercial shows that Ford and Nissan are indeed going after the same general market. I wish I had the technology to tape and post this commercial so it would be in print (sorry, video) but I don't, so hopefully some other souls saw this commercial.
CNCMAN> said I said "Fords are picked (taxi)because they last longer". We'll I didn't mean it that way. I just think if a vehical is used in this type of capacity it must have some creditability. I don't think the taxi companies out here in Vegas are willing to purchase Fords including the Explorer if they were a risky repair problem vehical. A taxi off the street is lost revenue. Oh I might add Las Vegas is a 24 hour town so it might be a little differnt as to the usage compaired to other locations as you mentioned, I don't know? You mentioned oversee's taxi's and what vehicals are used. Good thought but Im woundering what a Ford Explorer would cost over there?
MAHIMAHI > I agree Nissan has a SUV and a Crew Cab and a Pathfinder. But I thought this topic was compairing the Sport Trac with the Crew Cab. It seems maybe we should be compairing the Ranger with the Nissan Crew Cab? Anyway I thing The REAL TOW vehical would be a 3/4 ton base vehical. I don't have any real expereance of towing 20 to 30 foot objects but what I do know out here wind gusts will push any light weight vehical off the road not to mention the looks of holding up trafic for miles because of refusing to pull off and let others pass. My education which is mostly observation of the 100's of RV parks out here is the king of units these old timers drive. You know those retired guys spending there kidd's inhertance. I don't know if Ford sales a commersal Explorer. I never have seen options for one in any of there pricing unlike the Crown Vic's which dose come with a police package.
GOOBA> Good advice! My thought is the Nissan and Sport Trac are nice week end warror vehicals but who wants to be traveling down the highway being controled by a 20 or 30 foot object tied to your butt and then your trying to STOP....... or GO..
Oh by-the-way if you come to Vegas to cool off you don't wear red and carry a pich fork do you? (just kidding)
VINCE8> Vegas is a nice get-a-way. Good room rates and all-you-can-eat dinners. Just watch the tables. They don't build all those hotel's on winners..... it's the other ones. And yes if I was being controled by and object to the back of my vehical I'd prefer the Sport Trac over the Nissan.
FORDSPORTTRAC> If the taxi's out here are not picked because of the quality (FORD) It might be because some people coming to Vegas bring with them everything they own in there suit cases. Can't see a Toyota carrying 14 bags for grandma from Nebraska.
DTKWOK> Really how much would a Ford Explorer cost in Hong Kong? Unlike the US many of these oversee's company now build there vehicals over here....... Don't know of any ford assemble plants over in Hong Kong or Africa. I don't know you tell me?
HOLLYWOLF> Don't worry about your Nissan turning into a taxi one night. Although it does happen. The MGM Grand Hotel has a stretch limo painted yellow with a checker stripe down the side. So be careful of those back seat drivers, you know with there advice
Just a word about OVERDRIVE. I used to ride 2 stroke motorcycles. Number one rule..... DON'T LUG THE MOTOR! Hey guy's thats what your tachometer is for. If your lugging down shift! If not don't. I feel its the same with the overdrive. I put premature wear on the first transmition in my first Explorer by traveling up a mountain pass to and from Californa. I thought it was running OK up the pass so desided not to down shift, leaving it in 5th gear. Traveling at 70+ I thought what the heck. Not looking at my tachometer my motor was lugging. Yes working too hard at a low RPM. Not good for any engine. Remember to stay in your curve. A week later after I returned from my vacation broke and my tranny locked up. Lucky it was under warranty.
Anyway again my 5 cents worth........
Torque is the actual rotational force that is applied to the crankshaft.The manufacturers use a dynomometer to measure the rpm,and the load being applied to the engine.(There are numerous other measurements being taken,but for this we are concerned with only a couple).Let's start with the Nissan 3.3L. It rates at 170hp@4800 rpm and 200ft/lbs of torque @ 2800 rpm. They hooked the engine to the dyno and floored it.Took it to the max rpm and started applying a load to the engine.Let us say that floored with no load the engine ran at 7000 rpm,you would apply a load against the engine until the engine just starts to drop in rpm.You record this and keep applying additional load to drop the engine rpm down and you keep recording the load and rpm data.(You could also do this proceedure in reverse and work your way up in rpm).What you will see is a torque curve at various rpms.So,in the case of the Nissan engine,it produced the maximum torque of 200ft/lbs @ 2800 rpm. That was the best it was going to get.Below 2800 it was still building to reach its max torque and above 2800 rpm,the torque decreased.From these numbers we can then calculate the horsepower of the engine at various rpm ranges and you then get a hp curve. Nissan's peaked at 170hp @ 4800 rpm.The same applies here,lower than 4800 it still builds hp and after 4800 the hp drops off.
So what we have is the max figures of the engine.The best it will do.
Let's look at the Sport Trac. The 4.0L israted at 205hp@5000 rpm and 240ft/lbs of torque@4000 rpm.So,the same applies here,the engine reaches the best it will do at 4000 and 5000 rpms.The Ford engine puts out more hp but you have to run the engine to 4000 rpm.Comparing the Nissan,if you wanted to set up your shift points for the best power,because you would want to keep it in the peak power range,you would shift at 2800 rpm,the Ford at 4000 rpm.
The advantage of the higher "max" numbers in the Ford is that it works best with alot of rpm in the engine and will run down the road alot faster than the Nissan,if the gearing is close to the same.You will still be able to accelerate down the road.
The advantage of the lower "max" numbers of the Nissan is that it performs better where speed is not a factor,but power at a lower speed.If you like to off-road your vehicle,this is particularly useful because most of your speeds are 25 and below and you need your power there.
That is why you look at the numbers as a guide in slecting the vehicle and power combinations that best apply to your individual preferences and expectations for the vehicle.
When vince8 in his discussions brought up the hp/torque figures,I asked for the curve.I am turning my engine at 2500 rpm and doing 65mph,so I know that I am close to max on my torque curve which is great.What I wanted to know is what is the torque rating for the Ford at the same rpm.Is it the same,more or less?If most of my vehicle operation is within this range then I am getting the best performance out of my engine.If your Sporttrac turns the same rpm at 65 mph as the Nissan then you are below the peak performace of your engine.
I hope this helps some.I know this can be a complex area.
Let's see, in the Malaysian Islands there are Ford trucks - the diesel powered ones with the huge cube container on the back, but no pickups or SUV's. There are however plenty of Toyota, Datsun/Nissan, Isuzu crewcabs, Land Rover Discoveries, and Jeeps (Cherokee) there. Most of the domestic presence are in cars, even GM is there (DBA Holden).
Anyway, I don't know about any Ford factories in Hong Kong or Africa, sorry. Why do you ask?
What you say makes sense, I have a familiarity with a dynometer. We use two in our shop to test outboards. We can apply a load that will tell us if the motor is operating at it's correct operating curve.
With your figures in mind, this was a question I was going to ask earlier(before the rating issue). If the torque on the S/T is aquired at a higher RPM than say the C.C., then it would only make sense to me for the S/T owners to leave the O/D off so that they will be towing in the part of the curve that is going to give them the most torque, right? Which might lead some to wonder if you were driving(towing) at say 3400 rpm or higher so that you could have a good amount of torque, how will this age/wear on the engine?
See this was something that I was trying to point out to Vince8 in an earlier post, you have to rev the engine so high to start getting the torque.
Towing I agree has to to more with just power (HP/Torque). But, with more HP and Torque it gives you better hill climbing ability for the Mountain passes.
I haven't had time to carefully read your post 291 yet. But I did do a quick read through. I'm sure I'll have more questions when I have a chance to read it and understand it.
But after the quick read, I made an observation on the way in to work today. I'm not sure what this means or "IF" it means anything at all. This may even relate to the Overdrive topic more than the HP topic.
But at 60 MPH the ST runs at 2100 RPMs with NO Load on a flat road. Kick off the Overdrive and it runs at 3100 RPMs at 60 MPH on the same flat road. I have the 4.10 Rear with Limited Slip.
I'll try at get the numbers at 65 if no police are around on the way home. :-)
I am just actually following the debate about towing capacity and OD because I am interested in learning about it.
Buy the way, the CC outpulling the ST comment I made wasn't serious. I actually test drove an ST that my buddy had (he got our local dealer to let him demo one over night till sat.)and it is a very nice vehicle! It has a lot of strong points. I think I would rather compare it to the 2001 CC when it comes out so that we would at least be talking the same model year.
"BTW, only logic would have it, that with a receiver hitch it would only make it worse. You are putting the tongue weight even further away from the axle!"
While it's true the tongue weight is farther back, I thought that the point where the receiver hitch is connected to the frame is actually closer to the axle than the point at which the bumper is connected to the frame. Therefore there should be less back end sag.
Plus I've believed that a receiver hitch is always superior to a bumper hitch no matter what the weight of the trailer because the weight is better distributed.
If I'm wrong, please set me straight.
That being said, it has sufficient power for my use and is a very reliable engine.
I notice that you keep saying that Nissan has the bottom rung V-6 in it's class. Here's the rest of the class that you missed.
You forgot a few numbers: Ford 3.0L has 152hp and only 192lbs. of torque and for your glorious 4.0L refer back you your post #200 2nd paragraph for those numbers. By these numbers as for power, this makes these two engines the bottom of the V-6 class(which YOU mistook the Nissan 3.3L for having been, sorry your engine takes that honor). That must be why Ford is going to offer the 4.0L version, thats presently in the S/T, in the 2001 Ranger(embarassed). Of course I would be too, if several engines smaller than mine were producing more HP. By the way, here's some numbers for you chew on: Isuzu(I know Chevy) rates their full liter bigger(than the Nissan 3.3L) engine only 5 hp more & 25lbs. torque more than the Nissan 3.3L, WHY??? When the Chevy version is a 180hp. Let's look at the Dodge 3.9L, 175hp and 225 torque, this engine is a full .6 of a liter more and only 25lbs. more torque and ok, you do the math on the hp! The biggest difference between the Toyota engine and Nissan that sticks out right away is that it is a 24-valve DOHC engine. This might help it produce more power.
The Nissan 3.3 is their top of the line V6 engine offered, you cannot go any powerful, larger, whatever you want to say. It comes with 170HP and 200ft/lbs of torque, that is it, no more!
The Ranger 3.0 has 192ft/lbs of torque and 152hp, the Ranger 4.0 has 160HP and 225ft/lbs of torque, the new SOHC 4.0 will have 205HP and 240ft/lbs of torque! The Nissan 3.3 is the weakest V6 offerred as a top of the line motor. The only other engine Nissan offers is the 2.4. Nissan is bandaiding the 3.3 with a supercharger in order to compete with normally aspirated engines from Ford, GM, and Toyota. The 3.3 is a joke, live with it.
Don't be mislead by Vince8's number game. He doesn't obviously know anything about towing. Don't get me wrong guys, hp and torque pay an important part of towing but they aren't the only aspects(I've said this before, but Vince keeps bring it up). I have registered online as a Sport trac owner to get a copy of the owners manual, so I can answer your question about what the US version is rated at. I couldn't d/l the manual here at work(we have a small shared pipe(network) and it takes approx. 35 mins. to d/l so I will d/l it tonight when I get home. Maybe one of the S/T owners could tell us what their manual says.
Vince8,
I meant to ask you, the toyota tacoma which produces 190hp and 225lbs of torque right? Now if the hp and torque are the ONLY element(as you've implied) then why does the toyota have the same towing cap. or for that matter, the Ranger with the glorious 3.0L that produces 152 hp and 192lbs of torque have so much more of a towing capacity? Explain this to me or really to yourself. I guarantee you, that what ever explanation you come up with(assuming you do) it will have to do with more than hp and torque.
65 mph....3500 rpm
70 mph....3700 rpm
These were all with the O/D on with it off you can add 1000 rpms to those numbers. My C.C. is an auto and a 4x4. Just thought it was interesting.
As far as vince is concerned he once again shows us his intelligence.The 3.5l is the top v-6 in the Nissan line.Also you will never get him to compare these vehicles on any other basis other than hp/torque numbers or what some reviewer says.By his responses a person could make an argument that vince does not own a vehicle nor has any background or aptitude to understand other than what is written.There is no real world experience here.You try to engage him in a rational debate and I get better and substantially better responses from my 1 month old daughter.So vince,lets see what you got upstairs hopefully it is more than a bb in a boxcar.Hopefully you have more substance than a bag of rocks sitting on the back 40 fence.I hope you are at least a box of rocks because it has form and shape.I am looking forward to it.
Let me know if your numbers were reversed like gooba thinks. But I do find it very interesting that both vehicles have a 1000 RPM difference between O/D and no O/D. That seems like a big jump to me.
You also asked Vince8
>I meant to ask you, the toyota tacoma which
>produces 190hp and 225lbs of torque right? Now if
>the hp and torque are the ONLY element(as you've
>implied) then why does the toyota have the same
>towing cap.
I agree. Part of the answer must include gear ratio. I didn't look but if the Toyota is geared lower it should increase its towing ability. The numbers can't be just Torque and HP when looking at towing capacity. Gear ratio must be factored in.
The Nissan 3.3l engine is all I want or need. I don't even want the 250hp Nissan engine because it is overkill for me. But IMHO I don't think I would call it a bandaid. That being said, the 3.3l IS NOT A JOKE! That is NOT my humble opinion but my not-so-humble opinion speaking! I consider it to be a workhorse type engine that will get you where you are going for a long time.
Bye the way; do you know what SOHC means? You keep mentioning this when you talk about the Ford ST (soon to be Ranger) engine - As far as I know it just means Single Overhead Cam. Its not a secret code word. For example, a previous post mentioned Toyota's DOHC - Double overhead Cam - Two Cams and more valves!
I've got something to post tomorrow, it's a surprise! I'm not going to say what it is except that I had to have my C.C. towed to Nissan this evening. More to come....
I'am here at home trying to d/l the S/T ownwer's manual but the site is down tonight.
I went to www.ford.com site and went to the details of the Sport- Trac and it said 205hp @ 5000 rpms. Here's the link:(hope this works)
http://www.fordvehicles.com/popup.asp?pid=436
Maybe the Canadian version is different, I don't know. What do some of your manuals say guys and state whether or not you live in Canada.
Sorry about towing your CC. Hope the Nissan 800 # took care of you!