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Comments
For my use the ST fits my New England lifestyle well. 4WD for winter Vermont outings, sufficient roofline for a roof rack to carry the sea kayaks, mountain bikes ON TOP of the hard tonneau cover.... My car has suffered long enough as a SUV/SUT surrogate.
Last week my sitter's 97 Dodge Neon was leaking in my driveway and it turned out to be the head gasket. She traded in on Friday for a new Neon (don't ask me why!).I suggested she call Chrysler and see if she can get a Loyalty rebate as this was her 4th Chrysler in 10 years (Ford & GM sometimes offer this especially if a car has a lot of problems). They looked at her file and said they wouldn't give her one. When she asked why; they said the number of warranty claims (10!!!)was average for Chrysler! She has 44000kms on a 2 1/2 year old car. The lady at Chrysler said that they would have been happy to fix her problems under warranty and that she didn't have to buy a new car. Right - they would fix the problems..why did she go through 3 head gaskets if they fixed it.
I think that lady at Chrysler's Customer Care Centre speaks pretty clearly. 10 Warranty claims in under 3 years is average for Chrysler. If I even got half that amount of claims in 6 years with my Nissan, I would think it a lemon and sell it!
There is a shootout in this months Truck Trend (Motor Trend spin off mag) between the Ford Sport Trac and Nissan Quad Cab. I'll give you a hint who won, Not the Nissan.......
Nice post here, too bad you don't own either vehicle on this topic. The people researching these two vehicles want to see PERSONAL experiences not what other research people have found. Give the readers credit, they can do their own research. You would benefit everyone on this topic if you would not post on it you offer no help what so ever to a potential buyer, in fact they probablly wonder why evertime they see your post why it's about something that you read. Not about something you experienced. So why don't you take your little 160hp 4.0L rnager to the Cascades!
I'll give you that vince is a little rough around the edges at times but he's right on topic with a post regarding a article on real numbers between the two vehicles of the topic.
Thanks vince for the heads up on the MT test, Truck Trend Aug 2000.
I looked at & drove both CC & ST, bought the ST. Its interesting to see that my real life experiences match what the MT testers found although I wasn't able to conduct the exhaustive payload, stopping distance, measurement calcs.
Two corrections I found in this article:
1) The fact that the Nissan "..skitters over potholes and similar road irregularities.." & no such comment was made for the ST is not due to "coil rear suspension" as MT mentions but simply a better rear leaf spring/shock setup.
2)The quoted "as tested" pricing advantage of $5,500 for the CC does not represent the vehicles shown in the test. Comparably equiped, if there is a such thing with these two, the price to options values are similar. When I looked at the two, the CC would have been $1500 to $2000 less than what I considered to be a comparable ST. If Nissan adds the supercharger option for the R&T predicted price of $2000, the two will be closer in performance & price but not features.
Hate to slam your CC any worse than MT just did but dems da facts. Look at the two separate & they're both cool trucks. Put em side by side & one will always rise to the top.
I don't put too much faith in these magazine reviews. You mentioned two problems with the article that are pretty bad. If they did all these exhaustive tests, and can,t even tell the difference between leaf and coil springs, you have to wonder. Also, they tend to express their subjective opinions about ride, handling, styling etc. as if they were fact. They even said that there was only a minor difference between the acceleration of the unloaded crew cab and the unloaded sport track. I love my crew cab, but any moron can see that the sport trac has a major advantage in the acceleration department.
I don't own either one of these vehicles, but I have driven both! There is NOWAY anyone can say the interior is better on the CC. As far as offroad, better read the article and see what they say about how the CC and ST compare offroad, you may be surprised.
I did shut you down..several times. Check out the past posts on that topic.(sales issue for one)
Anyway, they don't compare folks, just because they have 4-doors. Sorry, they're two totally different vehicles. For one the c.c. is a truck and the st is a suv. No matter how you look at it the c.c. was designed as a truck and for truck buyers and those who plan on using them as trucks. It's funny how the Ford fans have to brag about a magazine article that compares a suv to a truck...hello of course the ride is going to be softer, and probably drive more like a car. That's what suv buyers want! Oh and Vince I drove and towed with both too. Why don't they compare the ST to say the 4-runner, Pathfinder or Blazer. Those are it's true competitors. The c.c. competition will be the 4-door tacoma & s-10...but ford ??? They had their chance to put it on the ranger platform but instead chose the explorer. I started thinking about this power issue too. Vince keeps talking about the 3.3L and its lack of power. Several times a week I end up driving my mother's '99 pathfinder XE and there is a considerable difference in feel of power when compared to my c.c. The thing is I don't know if its that mine is 4-wheel drive and hers isn't? They both have 4.10 rearends. It's that her motor feels more responsive(quicker). I don't know if it actually is faster I haven't tried to race her, maybe we will. I do know that my truck does tow better though...not powerwise but overall towing not pulling. They seem to pull the same. It's kind of puzzling.
You know vince8 I thought about you several times in the past weeks because I see about 4 out 5 Rangers fairly new ones (I can tell they are because of the new hood & grill) with burned out taillights. Whats that all about anyway? It doesn't matter wich light it could either be the middle light or either of the two bed lights, it's only one but it seems that's only the ranger too. It's all about the little things...I guess they're just lucky that they are running!
Don't laugh too loud! You should be reading some real-life posts on the ST and see if those owners got their sunroofs fixed or what ford is doing about their gas doors. I hope their dealers take care of them, I know one of the owners had to take his back twice.
My CC pulls 5000lbs, I have done it several times, with no problem in the power department..that is good enough for me. I am very happy with the ride and handling, my only complaint is bottoming out on very rough roads at highway speeds with a lot of weight being towed!
Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and trade in your Ranger (and Contour?) and get a mortgage and by the ST? That is just a suggestion - I don't know if you want to go get a small mortgage at this time.
You really do need to go out and drive a few vehicles and stop reading so many test stats. It is real-world performance that matters. If you had any idea how biased car/truck magazines are, you would have little faith in their reviews. Do you think that they are going to give a bad rating to a vehicle that is manufactured by one of their primary advertisers?? Motor trend is famous for their biased reviews. Consumer Reports is the only unbaised magazine, because they do not accept advertising. Read their car reports and you will see that Ford products are consistently rated a CR "Worst Buy". Put up or shut up. Buy an ST or a CC and then you can talk.
We should come up with some fair and standardized tests and maybe an ST and a CC could hook up for some un-official testing some day.
mahimahi,
I've got all 3 of the known ST problems.
1. Sun roof drip tubes need clamps added.
2. Fuel door rubs when opening
3. Power steering shimmys at low RPM's
Ford has bulletins on all three problems. I have an appointment next Tues to get it all fixed. We'll see.
BTW,
Be careful what you read in the ST thread. Some of the reported power steering shimmys are from bozos in 4WD making tight turns on dry pavement.
fordsporttrac
I agree that your ST is more of a SUV then a truck.The ride on your ST is smoother on the road then my CC,and that is how it should be.I know you think it could be softer still,but in comparison I could get sea sick in your ST.I am used to feeling the pebbles in the road.
I hope you get good customer service on your warranty issues.
What kind of trailer brake activation system do you use to handle the 5000lb & 4600lb trailers you quote here & in "Best SUT" forums?
Before you struggle to research your choices, I'll provide you with multiple choice to keep it simple:
a) Electronically Controlled Electric
b) Hydraulically Controlled Electric
c) Surge Hydraulic
d) None of the above
Mahimahi FYE (for your education) proper tongue weight is 10% to 15% of trailer weight. Safely set up, your 4600lb trailer should have a tongue weight of 460lbs to 690lbs, not the 380lbs you claim. To push any tow vehicle to its absolute maximum limits is reprehensible safety judgement & a poor choice of vehicle if those are your "Real Life" needs.
As far as the CC being a truck frame and the ST being an SUV frame. Please read the article from Truck Trend throughly. In one test they found the Nissan with a 1000lb lost considerable acceleration, 60-0 braking increased 20ft, (The Ford ST actually SHORTENED its braking distance with the same weight!), the CC suspension had practically no travel left. Since the ST is rated at 1500lbs, they tested the ST with 1500lbs and no difference! The ST performs better loaded than the CC, stops better, accelerates better and suspension travel holds its own! LOL. Read the article please!
As far as offroad the Nissan CC "skitters over potholes and similar road irregularities". The ST is the superior over the CC. The prices and test vehicles were a bit squewed I agree. The Nissan CC was not as decked out as the ST, showing a lopsided price difference.
mah, what sales issue are you talking about? The Ranger still outsells the Frontier almost 5 to 1! The Frontier has had 3 years to make its mark against the Ranger... The Frontier doesn't even show up in the top 25!!
I looked at the Nissan CC and was discouraged by two things -- first the rear seat was much smaller and doesn't fold -- don't know how Nissan could drop the ball and not figure out how to make a seat fold but they did. The Dodge has about 30 cubic feet of cargo area in the back seat area with the seat folded flush against the back of the cab. Second, the V-6 in the Nissan gets slightly worse mpg than the Dakota with a V-8. Dakota is rated at 20/15, the Nissan at 19/16. The Dakota can accomodate 6, then Nissan barely 5. The Dakota drove better -- I test drove both cars w/i 15 minutes of each other. In fact, the Dodge dealership drove me to the Nissan lot to compare them. I own a '96 Plymouth Breeze and had only two minor repairs done under warranty, a small oil leak and a visor clip both covered quickly and w/o any problem. I now have 58,000 miles and it is going strong. I am not saying the Nissan is a bad truck, just that it did not suit my needs (won't hold 6, rear seat doesn't fold, bed shorter than short, inefficient V-6 motor). I recommend that when you test drive either of them, drive one to the competition's lot and park them side by side to compare them.
You're not playing fair, you quoted a magazine article....LOL.
If you're going to quote this source, allow me to help...
"After a series of lackluster tow vehicles, Nissan stages a comeback with the 5000-pound-rated Xterra"
http://www.trailerboats.com/trailerboats_cfmfiles/articles/darticle1.cfm?m=1&s=6
For someone so educated about towing why did you choose a vehicle that is not rated for the tongue weight you have. Your manual will tell you & KBB will tell the rest of us that 350lbs tongue weight is the MAX rating for your CC. Please explain why the CC is such a great choice for you when you exceed the MAX tongue weight by 10% to 20% depending on fuel level in the boat.
Please tell me that you have some type of trailer brake system on that rig.
roundrocktx:
I like your thought process on why you bought the Dodge and I do agree with your reasoning. I personally have no reason to use the back seat as storage as I have to kid seats back there for the forseeable future. Also I have a family of four and don't need to carry six people. The biggest problem I found with the Dodge was price. As I have stated earlier, I paid $29,800Can before taxes, No Dodge dealer would sell a comparably equiped Dodge for less than $38,000can bt. With the problems my father continues to have with his '93 Dodge Caravan, the comments from Chrysler about their average repairs, I could not justify the extra $10,000 after tax; I would have bought a F150 4 door instead. I don't really disagree with any of your comments. The Dodge is a sharp looking truck and I liked its looks better than my Nissan; at first. I put a cap on and the look of my CC grew on me. If I can figure how to do it, I will post a picture.
Vince8: You still around? Did you buy one of these vehicles? Forget about your articles, they are just somebody's opinion who takes a car for a test drive; they don't own them and drive them day in and out. I can comment on the CC - but not on the ST - because I own one and drive it! the comment ""skitters over potholes and similar road irregularities" is bull crap... I drive camp roads every week!! It handles potholes and wash board roads with ease!! My die-hard Ford fan father-in-law also agrees it handles those conditions BETTER than his F150. Now I don't no how the ST handles them so I am not commenting on it. Maybe fordsporttrac can tell if he lives in an area where he can test it. As for the price mismatch; in Canada, the ST is the same price as the Dodge, and much more than a fully loaded CC.
As for your comment that my truck can't pull 5000lbs with no problems, have you tried it? Put up or ___up. My definition of no problem is cruising at 55 mph w/out OD on and not having it slow down anymore than most fully loaded vehicles would. Yes on steep hills it does slow a bit, but not any more then my in-laws F150 pulling their trailer. They followed me and actually were surprised by how little I was slowing on moderate hills.
mahamahi: That torque curve seems about right for my experience. When I am towing, I try to keep it between 3000-4000 rpm going up hills, that is where it seems to perform best.
Ziggy18: Better check your facts - they are wrong - only the mt CC is rated for 350lbs tongue weight, the at is 500lbs and 5000lbs towing capacity.
potholes and similar road irregularities". The ST
is the superior over the CC.
I read this part also.I also drove both trucks over the same terrain.It is apparent that you did not drive both trucks and do not know what you are talking about.I drug the plates on the ST and could not apply all the power because the rear end would not stay down.I went through the sandy areas in 2wd with the CC and had to engage the 4wd on the ST and had to feather the throttle.They may say superior off road,but it is not.It is superior on road.
Going back to a post of mine from a looong time ago. I too think its too much strain and unsafe to tow long distances (50+ miles) at or near maximum weight. In the 4000lb+ towing weight range you need more truck than the ST or the CC.
Don't ask me to provide Facts on this its IMHO. I cannot provide facts on this anymore than you folks can provide facts on towing in O/D.
As far as off roading the ST doesn't have the ground clearence to do anything but Light Off roading. The long wheel base doesn't help with off roading either. To me this makes the ST more of a SUV than a Truck. I'm not complaining, thats what I was looking for and what I brought.
Vince8 you said;
As far as the CC being a truck frame and the ST being an SUV frame.
My comment never mentioned a frame. I agree both vehicles are on Truck frames. I just feel the ST leans more twards a luxury SUV than a Truck.
Snipet from Boaters World Article,
"But, when you look at the sticker price, you will
understand why you see so many Xterras on the road nowadays...."
Price does drive the popularity of a vehicle. I know I want a Lamborgihni but...
Another Snippet;
"I towed 500 pounds more than the recommended weight for this vehicle....Any damage that might occur to an overloaded tow vehicle is not covered by the factory warranty."
Gee I wonder who brought that Truck after he was done with his test.
mahimahi do you own a scanner? Can you scan the article in and post it somewhere?
As for the towing - I don't entirely disagree with you..I think if you do infrequent towing the CC will suffice @5000lbs. I own 2 trailers, a tent that I use the majority of the time, and a travel trailer I leave parked except for once or twice a year. I will pull it up to 140 miles one way but only once or twice a year. As I noted earlier, my father-in-law is pulling close or at the F150 maximum for 9000 miles! Surely, with your reasoning, he shouldn't be; but Ford tells him it is no problem (except for big hills where he slows down quite a bit). I guess I believe that Nissan rates it at 5000lbs because that is what it is capable of towing. Don't most manufacturers of most products underrate their ratings to give a margin of error? Maybe a engineer out there could answer that one.
I didn't think you were trying to use my current problems as a stick against Ford, although I think its good ammo and I wouldn't hesitate to use similar stuff against Nissan. Just kidding.
4Runner;
It was a 94 4Runner. Brought during a snow storm for $1000 over invoice and traded for the ST for 1/2 its purchase price @100,000 miles. Had a MR2 before that and blew the head gasket @120,000 miles. I wasn't very nice to my MR2.
Before that I had a Chevy Biscayne. Anyone remember that car. Dam thing was indestructible!!! Straight 6. One day while I was at school someone switched the firing order. I was able to start it and drive it 5 miles to my friends house to get fixed. :-) I don't remember ever changing the oil before I sold it to my friend @100,000 miles. He drove it another 175,000 miles before he sold it to his friend. Last I saw it had 300,000 miles on it.
ST Shimmy;
Although I haven't read the Service Bulletin I think it requires bleeding the system and changing a hose. Either air in the system or incorrect diameter hydraulic hose. No fluid leaks and to tell you the truth the shimmy is so slight I never would have noticed it until I read it on the ST thread.
But I will say my first experience with FORD Customer service was Lame. They were quick to respond to my email questions but said they have no clue. I'm sure if I pushed it up to a supervisor I would have gotten some type of answer but I was too disgusted with their lack of knowledge on their own product. They told me to call the dealer to find out about service bulletins and Tonneau cover because they did not have that information. They also directed me to a site that I could "buy" Ford service bulletins. It just ticked me off and I couldn't wait to get off the phone.
I'll tackle that issue in a formal letter to Ford later when I have the full story.
I'm also up to Survey number 5 and 2 post cards telling me about the surveys. So far I received $4 in survey revenues. :-) That's a Margarita on Ford. I think I'll need it before I write that letter.
How much of this is fact is up to Experts.
==========================================
I guess the question is "What is max towing capacity"?
If you look back at the electronic industry speakers were rated in Watts. Well that was peak watts not continuous (RMS) Watts. Push that much power through the speakers for any period of time and you were picking up paper cone pieces.
Or how about walkie talkies. Does anyone really get 5 miles from a set rated at 5 miles?
So is Max Towing capacity the True long term vehicle tow rating
or
the max it can take for a short time.
or
the max it can tow on straight and level roads.
If a vehicle slows down considerably on a up hill climb, means to me, it is straining. That can't be good for engine and tranny.
My "GUESS" is Max towing capacity is how much you can pull on straight and level roads only. Put a couple of hills in the picture and you need to lower the weight to compensate or your looking for a service problem over time.
IMHO, You cannot and should not tow at max capacity in real world driving conditions. If I was to "GUESS" I would "SUGGEST" you do not tow any more than 75% of a vehicles rated capacity.
And for safety I would "SUGGEST" a vehicle weigh at least %55 of what it is towing. If your towing 5000 lbs you should have a GVW of 2750 lbs. Unless you prefer the trailer to pass you on the highway.
Its not a highway shimmy in the steering.
http://www.driveway.com/web/logon.jsp
gooba: I own (among other vehicles) a 91 F150 which is soon to be retired after 170,000 miles of faithful service. My next vehicle will be a 01 Dakota Q. All of my vehicles are highly sought after when they are sold because of the care I give them. I am looking at the next set of wheels for my wife in the next two years. I put on roughly 50,000 miles each year on my vehicles, but I do not haul professionally any more. I have more road experience than I care to mention, but I have driven professionally in 5 countries and have held an international license.
keanac: Do you know how well your brakes work? A 75 travel trailer will have electric brakes, but have you done the tests to insure full operation? If you do not know what type, how can you perform maintenance? Before you or any one else tows a heavy load, they should take the rig to the nearest commercial scale. That will tell you the load on the trailer. Unfortuneately, too few people know the limitations that a trailer imposes. The idiots on the road have no respect for the amount of time it takes to shut down a large rig. You can get into some hairy situations and the more you push the limits, the more you push your luck. An experienced trucker knows the fear of having several tons of trailer being shoved up his butt in an emergency stop. When you hit the brakes hard, the dynamics of the rig change dramatically. Good hauling techniques can make a major difference. You start with at the beginning. When you set a rig up, you have to consider the vehicle wt/brakes/footprint, the trailer wt/brakes/length and angle of incidence, and then look at road conditions and traffic factors. I can haul my 5000 lb boat around with my 18 Craftsman mower, but that doesn't make it prudent to haul on the road. A good driver does not trust in the factory safety factors. He adds his own.
mahimahi: You are the perfecet example of arrogant ignorance. You sell boats for five years and are now a expert on towing. My experience and that of the dozen or so boat dealers(Ranger, Cobalt, Bryant, Bluewater, Formula, Carver, Harbormaster, etc.) that I know, is that salemen are a dime a dozen. Good ones are a gem, but most haven't got a clue as to what is happening in the real world. You wouldn't know a jake brake if you heard one. You and Vince8 are two of a kind. You both take parts of articles as enforcement of your opinions. The Truck Trend article was clearly pro Sporttrac because in their opinion, the SCwas the more refined offering. That those not infer inferiority of the CC, just that Nissan needs to look at some areas. The main fault most people find with the CC is that the rear seating shows the lack of thought that later offerings come with and the engine is too whinny. The Trailer Boats article on the Xterra was very short and not very detailed. They failed to explain why they hooked up 4000 lbs to a vehicle that is rated for 3500. Normally they test the limit of a tow rating, but experienced readers will be aware that they do not endorse pushing the limits.
I, like many others, check out what other sites say about what is on the market. I may not plan on owning a particular vehicle, but many people ask me for my opinion and I try to be informed. I have been touching this forum for several months and have not been impressed with a few of the attitudes, particularly on the CC side. I have looked at many of the pickup sites on Edmunds, but few of them have the animosity this one does, without being specifically setup for that purpose.
Since you want to throw stones...
Also since it sounds like you're a trucker maybe you sould wait until the speed wears off or take some Zanax before you start your posts. You sound like a very angry person.Or if you don't like the topic and how we are discussing things...just don't read it.
2) I dropped my CC off at larry's trailer centre along with the trailer and had it inspected and was told everything is up to snuff and the brakes are working great! Sorry I couldn't answer you brake question, not all people fix/service their own vehicles. I trust my vehicle to the professionals; not to some backyard mechanic who thinks he/she knows everything. I am going to investigate the type of brakes that are on the trailer - ie. check with Coachmen (and Larry when he gets off holidays). I am also going to research your statement that my Father-in-law and I are lunatics for towing at/close to rated capacity. It might take me a while but if you peruse this town-hall I will post my results later.
3)Get a life!! - not all salesmen are idiots; I happened to be one for a couple of years and my customers would have been suprised to learn that I don't know anything - I have my strong points and weakpoints - as do mahimahi and any other salesmen.
4) are/were you a professional truck driver? Is that why you claim to be vastly more intelligent than us peons who dare to own Nissans?? give me a break!
I find it very hard to believe that Nissan (or any car manufacturer) would state a rating that is unsafe!! It is called Lawsuit in a big way!! When manufacturers state things like "Range 5 miles" they ALWAYS qualify it if 1. that only happens under ideal conditions, and 2. there could be injury/death if used at the max rating for prolonged periods. Nissan doesn't qualify its rating by saying "only tow 4000lbs to be safe"
I will ask them and see what they say.
Vince8 - since you want to continue to spout off, and maybe fordsporttrack would agree with me, sales does not equal quality. Microsoft mean anything to you? Because Nissan is in financial trouble doesn't mean their cars are lousy. Things such as design, appeal, MARKETING, and others is what makes sales. Did you know that for many years (I don't know if that is the case now)American companies only allowed there lower level employees to buy American fleet cars? Also, the rental car companies for many years only used american cars. What is the # one selling car in the US? Ford? hopefully you get my point. For my part, I am not saying they don't make any quality products, just that they have some serious quality issues with some of their products. I don't think that is Ford bashing, just stating a point.
In my opinion - Nissans whole line of vehicles, although maybe not a flashy, or well styled as other companies, are quality vehicles. The prices are reasonable for the usually outstanding quality that you get. Maybe Ford & Dodge aren't as plain and have some small design advantages but it is hard to argue with the value/quality with Nissan - even if they are going broke
Vince8 - as an aside you have/do won a Ranger and a Contour. I know you like them but what, if any, servicing, small and big, have you done outside oil changes?
Finally found out where you were hiding, I see you get completely shut down in the ranger vs frontier topic and decide to come here and spread the same garbage around because you don't want to respond to the people that challenged what you said before. I am still waiting for your fax # to send you that article that showed the ranger's suspension was worse, what are you afraid of?
OK, let's go over this for the umpteenth time.
Higher sales do not = higher quality. You still have not demonstrated that it does. Hyundai has not gone out of business and has been selling more and more each year, and they have the worst reputation for reliability, why is that? Ford outsells Nissan because they are a domestic company, because they have government and fleet sales, because they finance just about anyone. Can you explain why Nissan truck sales were up 56% while ford truck sales were up only 3%? How does that fit in with your argument? I said before that if you want to say that the ranger is better than the frontier because it outsells it then you have to admit the frontier is better than the mazda because the frontier outsells it, is that what you are telling us now? As to the JD power survey, how did the ranger do in comparison to the frontier the last two years? I know you won't look it up so let's just see who was the highest of all compact trucks, the frontier. All this means is that on one survey the ranger scored higher and on the previous two the frontier rated higher, and these are essentially the same trucks since 98, so what does this prove? How many Nissans are on the same recommended list? Why is Ford still rated by your beloved JD power below the industry standard and Nissan above the industry standard, how does this fit in with your theory? Why is it that EVERY publication rates the frontier better in reliability than the ranger? Not to mention that intellichoice rates the frontier better in maintenance, repairs, insurance, resale value and all costs of ownership. Which compact truck did consumer reports rate as highest in resale value, that's right, the CC. And if the Nissan products were so bad, why are the crew cabs and Xterras still flying off of the dealers lot faster than Nissan can build them and why is it that ford, dodge, toyota, and chevy were so concerned with the sales of the CC that they copied it and came out with a version of their own?
So vince, here we go again, you get shut down in one room and refuse to respond to the garbage you throw around, hide for awhile and move to another room and start spreading the same misinformation around again, then it just repeats again, well, you'll run out of rooms pretty soon.