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VW Passat TDI

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  • mrnimmomrnimmo Member Posts: 271
    for just a second... and then I read that the only tranny will be a slushbox.

    FORGET IT!!!
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I feel fairly confident that they will bring over the manual tranny in fairly short order. It makes for much better advertising if you can tout the excellent mileage and performance of the new diesels.

    They will sell more automatics if they lure people in with the better numbers generated by the manual.

    Just like some people judge how fast a car is by its 0-60 as measured with the manual tranny, and then buy the automatic.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    As you probably know, VW sells a lot more cars per capita in Canada than in US.
    Also, a higher percentage of diesels here.
    We deal with Langley VW. They're about 45 minutes outside of Vancouver, in an area of commuters. Thus they sell a LOT of diesels (piles of Jetta TDIs). The owner, Bruce Norman, gets flown by VW AG to Germany for new model introductions, etc.
    He gets to see what's coming to North America (and try it out) before many dealers even get any info that its coming. And they get cars other dealers can't get (like Jetta TDI wagons when all the other dealers in BC had long waiting lists).
    At this time we don't have final pricing or specs, but we heard preliminary pricing (almost the same as the 1.8t), it looks like they'll have the usual selection of options (for a GLS maybe, not GLX stuff), and we're just after leather (butt-warmers are standard now).
    I'll put snow tires on the stock steel rims, and a set of Yokohamas on 17" or 18" alloys for summer. (similar to what we did with her '91 Passat ... which we sold after 235,000 kms for $6500 a few years ago).
    It doesn't matter if they show up in September or October. It won't go on a 4000 mile road-trip till summer of 2004.
    Is it possible that they're coming to canada before the US?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The diesel Passat will not START production until week 43 if it is on schedule. It then has to make the trip to NA by boat, unload at port, clear port, transport to dealer. If I were a betting man I would place my money on 2004 model year and calendar year for the Passat diesel to appear.
    With current coil problems with 1.8T and VW's long track record for delays we will be lucky to see the Passat diesel in January.
  • nordyke52563nordyke52563 Member Posts: 2
    Does anyone know of some informative web sites that discuss diesel engine design and some of the modern European cars that use these powerplants?

    Also, are there any up-to-date web sites that discuss CVTs?

    Both of these subjects interest me, but my local library doesn't have any current literature...

    Thanks.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Would be happy to tell you of sites on internet that discuss diesels engines and European cars. Unfortunately it is prohibited by Edmunds policies to tell you and my post would be deleted if I did. Sorry, I have to follow the rules.
    Is there any specific question that I or someone else may attempt to answer?

    What I suggest is using Google or another search engine to attempt to find what you are seeking.
  • nordyke52563nordyke52563 Member Posts: 2
    Apparently I didn't read the rules thoroughly enough...

    I'm mostly interested in who's doing what with diesel designs, how clean they are, etc. In short, general stuff.

    And CVTs are interesting because they may be one of the transmissions of the future. Perhaps diesel engines and CVTs will be a fairly common combination in the future?
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    Hi !

    Almost all cars sold in Europe have diesel as an option (but no Subaru, Rolls-Royce, Ferrari etc).
    Try British sites (they use some kind of strange English: bonnet is hood, boot is trunk) - they should be easiest to navigate.
    US .com is .co.uk
    You should find usable info at Mercedes, Volkswagen, Peugeot and BMW. All these companies are known to have very good or better diesel engines.

    Krzys

    PS Key words for diesel search: diesel, common rail, direct injection.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    http://www.tdiclub.com/

    Try the above link for info on diesels.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    My Beetle TDI has a 5-speed, and I want a 6-speed.
    Mileage really drops off beyond 2500 revs ... especially past 3000 revs. Another gear would help.

    But I'd rather have the DSG 6-speed.
    Are the DSG tranny and 2.0tdi mated together in any other markets? (I think the Sharan TDI has the normal 6-spd and 4WD in Germany)
  • idletaskidletask Member Posts: 171
    So right now the answer is no :) But such a combination is planned, in VW's Touran and Multivan at least.

    As for the Sharan, yes it has a 6 speed with the 1.9l TDi 115, but it doesn't, and will never have, 4WD.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    you would want to try to import the 02M transmission that has the TDI gearing.

    That's something I'd like to do in the next few years.
  • argentargent Member Posts: 176
    I still think that (in theory, anyway) the idea pairing would be the Multitronic CVT with the 2.5L V-6 TDI. Given the relatively narrow rev band of even the modern common-rail diesels, the flexibility of the CVT would be a good combination. Such a combo is available on European A6s (albeit only with FWD), but I've never driven one, so I don't know if it works out in the real world.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Yes, the Sharan doesn't have 4WD ... I must have been thinking of the Passats. I see that they have the 130 HP TDI/4WD/6-spd Passat Sport in England. That car is FAR too practical for VW to sell in North America.
    As an engineer, I think that in theory the CVT and TDI should be a perfect match, but I know that theory and practice are very different (well, in theory they're the same, but in practive they are different!)
    Maybe the TDI has too much torque?
    Also, I had seen info that the TDI Passat was coming with the 5-speed Tiptronic. Then I read somewhere it would be the 6-speed Tip (like the beetle convertible) which would be nice, but today Bruce Norman (of Langley VW, where my wife's TDI wagon is ordered) said they'll be the 5-speed.
    Any other news?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Dealers can not order a Passat TDI. There is no such car as a Passat TDI (except 96 and 97's) available to VW dealers in US and Canada.
    No Passat TDI are scheduled to arrive before the 2004 calendar year. When the 2004 VW's start to arrive in July, August and September there will still be no TDI Passat to be seen.
    At the end of the year you may be able to order a "2.0L TDI-PD with 134hp and 247 lb-ft of torque in the Passat sedan and wagon in GLS trim level only with a 5-speed tiptronic. Regrettably no manual transmission will be offered at this time. This 2.0l TDI-PD is a 2-valve per cylinder version unique to this market and different than the new 4-valve version available in the new Volkswagen Touran and Audi A3".
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    I think dieselbreath was referring to the Jetta wagon.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Why not? You don't think there will be a waiting list by the time they arrive?
    BTW, I ordered my Beetle TDI in January 1998 over the phone with a credit-card deposit of $1000-.
    The dealer didn't have any info on the car, or even know what colors were available.
    But when the diesels finally showed up in June of '98, I was offered the first one in BC.
    At least with the Passat, we know what the features, colors, and available options are.
    (PS: Beetle has over 150,000kms on it and going great, but due for its 3rd set of tires)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Yep, the new 2020 Passat with Direct Hydrogen Injection is on order. No firm idea on the colors, options, or price but when it arrives I will be the first in line to get one. Dealer does not have any info. on the car but was happy to take a deposit;)
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Even if VW gets the Passat diesel in before November the US VW dealers will charge a big premium for the diesel. Another drawback is the highest preventative maintenance cost of any vehicle I have ever owned. Another US manufacture will have a 2.8 diesel in their vehicle this summer. Nice to have choices.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Who has the 2.8?
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    Jeep will have a 2.8 diesel in their Liberty this summer.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The maintenance cost of TDI is no higher than and for some items lower than a gasoline VW. Are you saying that a diesel will have higher maint. costs than V6 or 1.8T?
  • jimlockeyjimlockey Member Posts: 265
    No I not saying the TDI maintenance is high, I'm saying anything you take to a VW dealer is higher than any car I've ever owned and that is over 30 new vehicles. I'm saying the VW dealers are charging for what should be covered by the warranty. Like putting it on the computer ever other time. I'm also saying the free wash on the car. This drive's the dealer's overhead up and therefore you end up paying for it, etc.
  • argentargent Member Posts: 176
    I've never driven one, but as I said before the 2.5L TDI engine IS available with the Multitronic CVT on European-market Audi A6s. The 2.5L engine has about 228 lbs-ft of torque, about the same as the 3.0L gasoline engine, which is about the limit of the Multitronic's torque capacity.

    So you CAN combine a CVT and the 2.5L diesel V-6 in some markets. You can also combine the diesel V-6 and Quattro, but you can't have the diesel, Quattro, AND the CVT. The Multitronic CVT and the Quattro AWD system currently aren't compatible.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    My local VW dealer is very high on parts cost and service and low on results. I have to agree that VW dealers are a little more hit and miss than some other brands. Their customer satisfaction scores are proof of this.
    If VW comes thru with the diesel Passat I do plan to buy one, but the dealer will NEVER see it for a non-warranty item. And any needed service to maintain the warranty will be done at a non-local dealer.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    Who says you need to take the car to the dealership for scheduled maintenance?

    Free car wash? I never recalled Toyota dealerships offering free car washes. Lexus and Acura..yes. Wait for a nice day with a lot of overcast, not rain, then go wash the car.

    THe diesel maintenance you need to perform can be easily done by the DIY crowd. Timing belt changes...dealerships are optional, as the TDI community have regular meets that include timing belt changes.
  • shortyjlgshortyjlg Member Posts: 4
    I JUST EMAILED VW THIS MORNING AS I AM LOOKING AT A DIESEL JETTA, BUT FIND IT KINDA SMALL FOR POSSIBLY HAVING A CARSEAT & STROLLER IN IT. THIS IS THE RESPONSE...
    Thank you for contacting the Volkswagen website. We appreciate your
    interest in the Passat.

    It has recently been announced the Passat TDI will be produced. It is
    tentatively scheduled to become available mid to late 2004. No further
    information is available at this time.

    If you would like to be updated when further information becomes
    available
    about the Passat TDI, please send us your complete name and mailing
    address
    and email address information.

    We hope you enjoyed your visit to vw.com. On the road of life there
    are
    passengers and there are drivers...

    Dennis
    Volktalk
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Unfortunately, the Liberty will come with Chrysler's 2.8 liter engine. The Diesel version of the popular SUV barge "Grand Cherokee" comes with the Benz 2.7 liter engine (not in US). The Benz engine uses less fuel, has more power, and lasts longer. Unfortunately, the engine bay in the Liberty is too short for it, so you're stuck with the Chrysler mill.
    Sure, its another "diesel option", but I'll bet a gas V6 Passat with 4WD will use less fuel, handle much better, carry more (wagon), and still be worth something when its 10 years old ... a concept that Chrysler owners are not familiar with.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    YES an oil change on a VW Turbo Diesel is costly.
    Because of the physical punishment of a diesel on oil, plus the oil being used to cool the high-temperature turbo charger, VW only approves "MOBIL 1" for my TDI, which is the most expensive motor oil that I've seen.
    Oil changes are almost CDN$100- with taxes.
    (Although my Benz 300 SEL with 4.5 liter V8 took 12 quarts of oil, so its wasn't cheap either!)
    HOWEVER you have to factor in:
    - oil changes and timing belts are your only regular maintenance costs
    - you will save immensely on fuel
    - your engine will outlast a gasoline engine
    - your vehicle's resale value (compared to a gas model with the same mileage) will more than offset the initial premium for the diesel engine.
    (that last item applies to VWs only, as they don't gouge for diesels like some other makes)

    The resale value is a big factor. When you think of it, a person buying your used car is not buying a new car because of $$$.
    So they are concerned about operating costs moreso than buyers of new cars who have $$$.
    Thus, the used diesel demands an even greater premium compared to gas-power than on new cars.
    For example, on a '98 Benz E-class, the Edmunds pricing of the diesel is 2 grand higher than the V6 ... around 9%. When I bought my TDI Beetle, it cost about 4% higher than the lame 2.0L gas engine. In the Passat, the TDI will replace the 1.8T gas engine ... the price difference will be negligible. In the Beetle the TDI costs less than the 1.8T
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The diesel engine to be offered in the Liberty is NOT manufactured by Chrysler. The diesel engine to be offered in the Liberty is a proven design with excellent reputation in Europe.

    Sorry, I had to correct your error.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    There are many different oils that meet VW requirements for TDI.
    Mobil Delvac 1, 5w40 (full synthetic, a reformulated version of Mobil 1 which is intended for diesel engines)
    Chevron Delo 400, 5w40 (full synthetic version)
    Shell Rotella T (full synthetic version, not to be confused with Rotella SB synthetic blend or regular Rotella T non-synthetic)
    Amsoil Series 3000, 5w30 (full synthetic, CH-4 rated)
    Amsoil High Performance, 10w40 (full synthetic, CH-4 rated)
    Amsoil semi-synthetic 15w40 (CH-4 rated and high quality, but almost as expensive as the full synthetic, and higher viscosity at low temperatures)
    Redline, synthetic version (make sure you get the type meant for diesel engines, with the CG-4 or CH-4 rating)
    These are just some of the oils. Oil can be purchased for less than $13 and filter for $6.00. This is less than $20 w/o labor. AND the oil only requires change every 10,000 miles.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Who's engine IS the Liberty getting in North America? I'm just assuming that the North American version would get the same engine as the diesel Liberty's that people are driving in England. The reviewer's of the Diesel Liberty there were dissapointed that it didn't get the same engine as the Grand Cherokee, for reasons noted. They stated that the engine was a Chrysler unit. Chrysler did build some reasonable engines ... like the 318 wide-block V8 in my '67 Dodge Power-Wagon. Now THAT's a 4x4!
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Sorry, I should have worded that: "In 1998 when I bought my TDI, Mobil 1 was the only approved oil that the VW dealer carried".
    There has been a lot of confusion around what is the proper oil, because the earlier (non-turbo) VW Diesels were approved for a wider range of products, and many garages were putting the same oils in the TDIs.
    I'm glad there's more choice now, although I'm hampered by the Canadian market which doesn't offer as many brands as the US market has.
    But the point is that Diesels cost less to maintain overall, even if the oil-changes cost more. Yesterday I met a guy with a 3-week old Jetta TDI. It replaced his older Jetta Diesel which has 495,000 kilometers on it.
  • idletaskidletask Member Posts: 171
    The Diesel engine in the Jeep Liberty is NOT Mercedes' 2.7l inline 5 (engine which propels the Grand Cherokee). It's a 2.8l inline 4 from Detroit Diesel (ex-VM). Strange choice, by all means. Maybe the Merc engine just didn't fit into the engine bay?
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    There is a service circular that came out in 1999, that supercedes the other one that says all TDI's should be using 5w40 synthetic
  • krzysskrzyss Member Posts: 849
    I believe Chrysler was using their diesels for years, at least in Europe. They were not the best.
    Maybe VM works better on American diesel fuel ?

    Krzys
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    5W30 or 5W40 are both perfectly fine for the TDI. I've seen the TSB's from VW and VW has documentation that states 5W30 is approved oil for TDI. Enough said, I'll not participate in an oil war if that is what this is going to turn into.

    Regarding the Liberty diesel my point was that the engine was not going to be a "Chrysler" motor. I agree that the motor is a VM design. I also agree that the motor is not a Mercedes design or build. I'm not a fan of Chrysler but I expect that the Liberty is going to be one fine vehicle with the diesel. I could only hope to have the opportunity to own both a Passat diesel and a Liberty diesel.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    http://pics.tdiclub.com/members/dieseldorf/PDFs/5W40.pdf

    (save to your hard drive to read it)
    Vehicles Number: V 99-13

    Use of Synthetic Oil Date: 7/23/1999

    Supersedes Service Circular V 99-05, dated 1/26/99
  • deuskiddeuskid Member Posts: 20
    8u6hfd...
    I couldn't hyper from this site. what does your reference tell us?

    txh
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    you have to right click on it, then save it to your hard drive. THen open it.

    The hyperlink only works internally at the club.

    Basically what it says is
    Effective immediately, please use 5W40 synthetic oil when performing warranty repairs or Free Maintenance on 1996-2000 model year TDI (diesel vehicles)....
    This came out on 7/23/1999
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    I've seen about a dozen references to the CGI-based V-8 TDI (now in the new A8 in Europe) going into the revised Passat (which looks like a smaller Phaeton).
    Although I'd rather have the A8/V8, the Passat V8/TDI sounds more like my budget.
    And this engine has more power/torque than that Cummins beast in Dodge's pickups!
    Has anyone got any further information on this?
  • natescapenatescape Member Posts: 176
    Don't hold your dieselbreath waiting for a v-8 TDI. They do have a v6 TDI, I believe, but don't count on it.

    The 2.0 PD Passat that comes out next year should be lots of fun to drive.
  • 8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    VW has a 2.5L V6 TDI to makes IIRC, 150 bhp & 230-ish lb-ft. Makes about as much torque as the 1.9L 130 bhp TDI PD also available in the European passat
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    I got the dates wrong ... the new Passat (with 4L V8 Diesel in Europe) is 2005.
    In 2006 comes the Volkswagen direct E-Class and BMW 5-series competitor codenamed CI - bigger than VW Passat, smaller than VW Phaeton.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    February 04 is the date the dealer was given that is the planned arrival of the Passat TDI. Source of the information is high volume dealer in IL that is respected among VW fans. VWoA stated that Passat Sedan TDI may be only body style offered.
    I sincerely hope the Passat diesel shows up on time and in Wagon also. VW timeline is almost always later than scheduled.
  • 2screwsloose2screwsloose Member Posts: 11
    I wonder how well the diesel fuel available in the US will run in the projected TDI?
    Ours is high sulphur - theirs is low sulphur.
    Maybe 225ppm in comparison to 15ppm. Seems like the electronics of the engine, as well as the injectors, will be fighting an uphill battle.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Look to Dodge for the answer. Dodge is selling the Sprinter van in the US with Diamler common rail direct injection turbodiesel engine. Same engine as Europe. It is working fine in the US with high-sulfur diesel so the Passat TDI should be OK. The Passat TDI will be modified for North America with different head than europe with 8 valves and other changes in operation. It will only have to operate on high sulfur for two years:). Can't wait for 2006 fuel.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    My TDI is almost 5 years old. For one year it ran on Canadian fuel. Then for almost 3 years it ran on American fuel (mostly Texaco). The car crosses the Can/US border about 100 times a year, so the lower prices on the US side made sense.
    I noticed it seemed to have less power than new (wouldn't lay rubber shifting into 2nd on dry pavement) but I attributed that to the better traction of the Yokohamas compared to the stock Michelin "echo-squealers".
    Then I recently noticed it had more power, and I got worried. My experience with snow-mobiles and motorcycles years ago was that they produced more power just before they blew up! But it turned out that my wife was re-fueling the car in Canada (at Husky or Shell).

    A few tests confirmed it ... Canadian fuel produces noticable more power (and mileage) than US fuel. The Canadian diesel has been lower in Sulphur for some time now:
    "As of Oct. 1, 1994, Shell and other major Canadian refiners began selling only low-sulphur (0.05 per cent) diesel fuels, under an agreement with the federal government to reduce particulate emissions. "
       But another neat thing is that Shell offers 2 grades of diesel.
    My first experiment with their "DieselMax" fuel resulted in a mileage boost of about 15%. It was a pleasant surprise. I can't find that specific fuel on their web-site but they do say:
    "... because Shell's Scotford Refinery near Edmonton has been manufacturing ultra-low sulphur diesel fuel (0.01 per cent) for more than a decade without experiencing any signs of lubricity problems. "

    Whatever the root cause, I'm paying the extra for the Canadian fuel and really enjoying the added power and mileage.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Sulfur in diesel fuel for on road use is mandated to a maximum of 500 ppm in Canada and USA. The diesel fuel that Shell sells is 500 ppm or less.
    500 ppm or less is considered low sulfur diesel and is nothing special as it has been around since 1993.
    In 2006 the standard for diesel will be 15 ppm sulfur. This is the fuel that will allow increased use of diesel in passenger and light duty trucks and SUV's.
    There is ultra low sulfur diesel 15 ppm available in the US and Canada.
    You may be paying more for diesel in Canada but it is due to higher taxes and not higher quality.
  • dieselbreathdieselbreath Member Posts: 243
    Although the law is 500 PPM, sulphur levels in Diesel fuel in Canada peaked in 1997 and have been dropping since. The level in Ontario is close to 400 PPM. That fuel is likely imported from the US. Western Canada's sulphur content has been below 220 PPM since 1999, and is dropping every year.
    Our fuel locally comes from North Eastern BC via the West-Coast-Transmission pipeline and is refined in Port Coquitlam.
    The fuel I buy across the border comes from Alaska via tanker and is refined in Anacortes, WA.

    So if its not the sulphur, then why does US diesel produce less power and mileage in the same car on the same highway?
    (BTW: what kind of diesel are you driving and what fuels work best with it?)
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