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VW can not produce enough diesels to satisfy demand for them in the USA and Europe. The TDI has the highest retained value of any VW and recently the VW Jetta TDI has made headlines as having the highest retained resale value of any recent used car. Ford, GM and Dodge charge over $4000 extra for diesel in their trucks and they can not meet demand. Finding diesel fuel has NEVER been a problem anywhere in the US when I drive diesel.
The MSRP price of the Passat GL TDI sedan is $23,060 and the Passat GL Wagon TDI is $24,060.
http://autos.en.msn.ca/vip/pricereplist.aspx?modelid=10274&sr- c=vip
Although there are no prices it appears that VW may have decided on the spec for the Passat TDi. 4motion and tiptronic only.
I drove the latest tiptronic on a 1.8t and frankly I think it's probably the best slushbox/gearbox comprimise out there. I currently have a '98 tiptronic 1.8T passat and the latest software is even better.
For those of you with a 2001.5+ car with a tip box there is a way to take the auto upshift off...
Tiptronic is the only transmission. That part is correct.
- The VW diesel engines beat any GM pushrod in refinement any day of the week. Period.
- In Europe, price is a big factor. You are correct. Diesel is also expensive like petrol, but getting twice the mileage lowers expense for most. But most people there accept diesel as comparable to petrol, so they don't see any comprimise.
- Yes, things have to change in the US before diesel is widely accepted. Sulphur levels must be reduced. also, American attitudes and misconceptions must be changed. Most Americans are very ignorant about diesels (like yourself) and dismiss them as "unrefined" technology. A little education would go a long way. Their performance is vastly improved and in many ways, as refined as many petrol engines. I would assert that the VW diesels rank much lower in NVH than the GM pushrods. Just drive one!!!
- Diesel is available at about 75-80% of the gas stations around my area. Fuel is not a problem. Plus, if diesels become more popular, stations will begin to carry it more readily.
- And why haven't we seen a diesel hybrid yet??? That would just be the ultimate kicker!!! Lacking HP, perhaps?
- I personally am hedging all bets on Fuel cells. Hybrids and diesels will hold us over until Fuel Cells hit the masses. But that's over a decade away. Exciting technology, though. I just hope old-timers and close-minded Detroit jumps on the bandwagon and quits trying to gouge profits at progress' expense.
"The production version will have a new diesel hybrid powertrain consisting of a 250 horsepower V8 diesel engine and a 50 kilowatt electric motor. With 234 kW of total power and 860 Nm of torque available, the Vision Grand Sports Tourer can sprint from zero to 100 km/h in just 6.6 seconds, says the company."
Not lacking in power. Perhaps the Passat will have a diesel hybrid option in the future.
The lack of popularity of a Diesel has more to do with ingnorance than any real disadvantage.
250 lb./ft with a CVT or 6-speed manual...how sweet it would be.
137hp would be noticeable if you're trying to pass on the highway doing 75mph+, but if i can pass with a 96hp 4-banger, 137hp should be ok.
V8 diesel and hybrid? isn't that an oxymoron? what's wrong with a 4 or 6?!?! sheesh.
I have been to the US recently, and I am amazed at what you find resonable 'mileage' as you call it (we refer to it as mpg , miles per gallon) In England my golf will easily do over 50mpg, and this is good, a car with a figure above 30 mpg is resonable, anything below is very poor. A passat with a similar engine over here will still average over 50mpg. Yet you find 20mpg ok, just because you petrol prices are lower doesn't make this alright, it still causes a huge amount of pollution and wastes our rapidly dwindling natural resources.
The new Passat is the way forward, it is fast, well engineered and efficient. It is very refined, the engine noise is very low when cruising. You don't need a bigger car, we cope with what you call small cars, the passat over here is classed as a large family car and will easily serve a family of 4 with all their luggage, especially if you by the wagon or estate version. You should definately buy a passat when it is released, or at least take it for a test drive before you say diesels are bad. I promise you that you will be impressed.
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Never mind engine wear. If you don't end up with a lemon (and every manufacturer has a couple of those), you can expect 250,000 or 300,000 km's - no problem. We did 220 km/h and you hardly every heard the engine work, which wouldn't be an issue here anyway with the stricter speed limits and - never mind - the fine/insurance premium tie-ins (which is a whole other issue).
I suggest you go to your local VW dealer as soon as this car is in and take it our for a test drive - you won't regret it!! ESPECIALLY THOSE DIESEL-OPPOSERS! I guess they wouldn't be reading this message board anyways!?
There are a couple of other engines I'd prefer, but the vehicles they are in are a bit pricier (V10 TDI 313HP in the Tuareg, for example).
Unless you are on the road a lot, I personally don't think the diesel vs. gasoline consumption is a big issue. The real pleasure comes with driving it.
And then I read some posts in the message board. Why no manual? Do they come with manuals in Europe? I would think they would include a manual, even it was just to lower the price and perhaps slightly improve MPG. I really can't believe it. If there's no manual in sight, I won't buy it. This really breaks my heart.
PS- Can you post the link the area on the VW site where you got the info? Thanks!
VW is selling the only diesel midsize car in the US and Canada when they offer the Passat and the only compacts with the Jetta, Golf, and New Beetle. Demand for diesel cars exceeds supply and there are no other options. I can only guess at VW's motives in not offering a Passat TDI with manual.
1. Limited number of Passat TDI will sell easily irregardless of transmission.
2. Less expense to certify only one transmission/engine.
3. Over 95% of midsize cars are sold with automatic.
You don't have to believe me when I say there is no manual in the Passat TDI but when you see there are no manuals at dealers you will believe.
By the way, irregardless is a word coined early in the 20th century, even if it does not qualify as "Formal" english.
Well I got real serious on the TDI purchase and decided the Jetta wagon was the perfect body style for my needs. Next choice was trim level - loaded GLS, leather, heated seats etc.
Then just for the heck of it I took an automatic TDI wagon for a spin and absolutely fell in love with it. All that low end torque is perfect for an automatic. No kidding it feels like I have a V8 under the hood from a stop, just a little tap of the gas and it goes. My Jetta is last years 90 HP with a 4 speed automatic - I want to take an 04 Jetta TDI out for a test with the pump deus and 5 speed auto - not that I'd trade mine, it's a fantastic vehicle. I get around 40 mpg in mostly city driving - can't beat that.
Don't knock a TDI automatic until you've driven one.
I may trade this Jetta for a next generation Passat Diesel wagon in a couple of years - I'd like to see it with a six speed manual by then (and 4motion)- if not an automatic will be more than acceptable.
Now that I've had time to get used to the TDI I have to say I prefer the diesel driving dynamics to a gas engine. The fuel economy is nice but the way it drives has me hooked.
I'd never owned a diesel before my 03 Jetta wagon which has 12,000 miles on it now. I have a totally different driving style from driving a gasser.
I've seen some renderings of what the next generation Passat will look like - it's gorgeous. I'll be waiting for the next generation Passat in a year to a year and a half.
No matter how much automatics are hyped up, in Real-World driving, they DO get less MPG.
Depending on which vehicle you get, it costs $500 - $1500 MORE for an automatic.
And nothing can replace the pure enjoyment of using a clutch pedal and shifting for yourself.
These automatics with "manual" shift modes are nothing more than manual wannabes.
I would rather have a manual Yugo than an automatic Mercedes.
The new Passat would have to be available in a manual for me to even consider buying one.
Right now, I am waiting for the new 2005 diesel Golf which will be offered with a manual. Ditto with the Jetta. The higher performance diesel (130+ hp with well over 200 pounds of torque) is supposed to be offered in the new Golfs/Jettas in the US.
As for the claim that 95% of all mid-sized cars are automatic here in the US, that's because that is the only transmission available. And for people who need to have a mid-sized car, that's their only choice.
Noticed that Mercedes just a couple of years ago started offering again a manual in a couple of their US models.
Same with Volvo. And the new S40 will have a manual when the new model comes out.
There is even a new Cadilac with a 6-speed manual.
Notice that for luxury car companies like Mercedes and Volvo who stopped importing manuals to the US quite a while ago, they lost market share. But the car company in the same category and price as Mercedes and Volvo that has always offered a manual has GAINED market share during the same time period. That company is BMW.
Europe has always had manuals, and most cars sold over there are manuals.
Finally, many companies are starting to offer more manuals in the US because the demand is there.
I became interested in diesel after hearing about Bio-Diesel which can used in current diesel cars without any modification.
Bio-Diesel is a very clean fuel, can be manufactured entirely in the US, and is a renewable resource that can be made out of a lot of things, from seeds to even used restaurant grease.
Bio-Diesel is recommended in Europe, but not in the US since our processing standards haven't met car manufacture's level of quality.
We need to strongly encourage US Bio-Diesel producers to improve their quality up to German standards.
This will give us a clean, renewable fuel and reduce our dependancy from sources that basically hate the US and Western countries.
The infrastructure is already in place to supply diesel vehicles with fuel.
From the 2003 VW Golf brochure, The Golf diesel with a manual gets 42 MPG in the city. The automatic of the same car gets only 34 MPG.
That's 23.5% BETTER fuel economy with a MANUAL.
Far better fuel economy, usually about $1000 cheaper when bought new, and the irreplaceable enjoyment of shifting, using a clutch, and driving for yourself (which automatics inherently can never have) make manual transmissions the clear winner and the only REAL transmission.
Why should I buy an auto tranny car that
Is a thousand dollars more expensive.
Gets worse fuel mileage.
Is slower.
Is less fun to drive.
Offers less control.
Is heavier (with all the extra weight in the nose)
Is more likely to be borrowed (because anyone can drive it)
Cannot be started by pushing if the battery dies.
Costs much more to repair (new clutch $400, new Auto tranny way way more than that)
Of course with an automatic I can eat a big mac while I am driving. I gues that this is an important thing given the average girth of my fellow citizens. ; ^ )
I certainly won't own one, and won't miss it if it is an automatic. That is just a fact, not a criticism of auto tranny owners. In the Passat application the manual performs better overall, and the automatic is easier. Not much to argue, just a matter of priorities.
I wonder why it upsets someone who wants an auto tranny if a manual will be offered? I don't think the reverse is true. Both trannies should be offered, and to be honest I don't even care if I have to pay more for the manual.
There is no shame in taking the easier path (auto tranny) after all that is what most people do.
As far as the automatic/ manual debate goes - I prefer manual transmissions to a point, but I'm not a fanatic about it.
I have an 01 BMW X5 3.0 which was available with a 5 speed manual (available with a nice diesel in Europe by the way). I've owned a bunch of BMW's all of which were manuals. Bottom line I didn't like the manual in the X5 - first gear was way too tall and I didn't like the way it shifted. The 04 X5 3.0 is available with a six speed manual. The BMW steptronic automatic is an increadable transmission - I've never put in in "manual" mode which I think is rediculous by the way. I much prefer the X5 with an automatic.
I had an 01 M3 with a six speed manual, when it's lease ended a few months ago I was close to trading it for an 03 M3 SMG - an electronically shifted manual transmission (has a clutch and manual transmission but no clutch pedal). VW has DSG available in Europe - similar technology except its more advanced, it can select the next gear via a second clutch. I won't go into all the features of DSG and SMG here, but predict these automatically shifted manual transmissions will be very popular - they shift faster than a human can, perfectly blip the throttle on downshifts, etc, etc. This is F1 race car technology, it is amazing - and easily as much fun or more fun than a traditional manual transmission. I've driven an MR2 Toyota with the same technology.
I ended up buying a Subaru WRX STi instead of leasing another M3 by the way.
I plan to trade my automatic Jetta TDI wagon in a couple years when the next generation VW's come out - probably a Passat TDI wagon, I'll drive the manual and automatic and make a decision on transmission then. Europe has 6 speed manual. 4Motion VW diesels available now.
I do a lot of in-town driving in my business and an automatic is easier to deal with. I get 40 mpg on average in my Jetta wagon which is great IMO. The lower fuel mileage and extra cost for the automatic don't bother me at all. I don't think there is anything sporty about a manual transmission TDI - it isn't anything like a gas engine manual.
Not a criticism of auto transmission owners? Well, sure does not seem as if you are making a nice generalization.
VW may not be offering the manual due to very small market for manuals, maybe for emissions.
If VW did offer the manual at least the constant complaining of no manual would be over.
And perhaps the inferring that auto transmission owners are not "drivers" would be deterred.
I've driven several and would get a C class with a manual -
The TDI is made for an automatic IMO - I'll test a Passat diesel automatic as soon as they hit my dealer. The 04 Jetta TDI has a 5 speed automatic.
Mercedes is also bringing back the diesel in their E Class later this year - I'll be taking one of those for a spin as well.
About the TDI - when I think about a comfortable sedan that can get me to work and chores with economy and power I think auto trans/diesel. When I want fun in the mountains I think gas/manual.
I agree from personal experience, give me a diesel with an automatic for my everyday cruiser. All the low end torque is a perfect complement to an automatic plus it's increadably responsive on the highway. For fun give me a nice gas engine and a manual. A diesel with a manual is missing the fun factor IMO, lots of very low end torque, a 4,500 RPM redline and a torque /HP peak of about 3,500 - 4,000 RPM don't equate to a satisfying manual transmission driving experience.
When a diesel car can pass the new emission standards, I'll feel better about it.
Seeing as how I live in Massachusetts, we're not allowed to buy them here until they do... hopefully that won't be long.
By the way, if this hasn't been posted already, take a peak at the upcoming passat here: http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000207702.cfm
What a looker.
quote- Cars that run on diesel emit much less carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon that petrol equivalents. -end
Gasoline emissions contain carcinogens. The emissions of gasoline engines have an odor that is unpleasant. Modern diesel engines produce virtually no odor, certainly comparable to or less than a gasoline engine.
Diesel fuel is a combustible, gasoline is flammable. If I were to be rear ended I'd much rather be in a diesel vehicle that could possibly catch fire than a gasoline one that would possibly explode.
Diesel may be refined from animal fats or vegetable and plant oils, therefore it is renewable and will be around when petroleum is not.
Gasoline has no renewable replacement.
Me, I care enough about the environment to want to preserve it, and believe diesel is an intelligent approach to future vehicle fuel.
CARB standards were enacted by the same people who forced the failed electric cars on CA taxpayers, from the same state that has a complete failure of an energy policy.
My sympathy to anyone who lives in a state that uses CARB regulations.
Just to clarify, modern diesels are supposedly cleaner, yes? That being said, the current TDI Golf must NOT considered "modern," I assume, because 1) no common rail, 2) still a very bad odor (I was behind one this morning).
Again, I'm not "knocking" them (no pun intended), I'm just saying it's not all roses... yet.
The comment about cleaner emissions must only refer to european diesels: Quote from Consumer Reports, "Diesel engines typically get about 25 to 30 percent better fuel economy than similar-sized gasoline engines. But they also produce dirtier emissions, higher levels of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and fine particulates, or soot. To help, the Environmental Protection Agency has signed legislation that will severely lower the sulfur content in both gasoline and diesel fuel starting in 2004. This should result in some of the cleaner-burning diesels used in Europe being offered for sale in the U.S."
As to your comment about the VW TDI I am surprised since having owned three VW TDI I am well aware of their performance and even with the garage door closed and engine running (not for a long time, of course;)) the exhaust emissions were barely perceptible. To be able to identify the odor in traffic? Hmmm...
I'm not paid to review cars, however, those that do often do not like diesels and the TDI has received good reviews even though it is a diesel.
If I'm not mistaken, we can't have common rail technology until the sulphur is reduced. Common rail IS a high pressure system.
Maybe emissions are political... but they're clearly scientific as well. You know when you're behind someone whose emissions are not in spec... can you imagine if those controls didn't exist? Having spent a lot of time in Europe (I go to italy every year) I'm VERY VERY skeptical of diesel emissions. We had a diesel Ford Mondeo with all the latest tech and it had a fairly strong odor. Then again, Europe may not have the same requirements as CARB.
Our buses in boston are being replaced with CNG and a mix if particulate filters on the exhuast and it's making a huge difference (not that cars are that bad, but there are many more cars - potentially - than buses).