Diesel is popular in Europe because the diesels are great, not just because the cost of diesel. Luxury BMW, Mercedes and Jaguar buyers can afford gas or diesel, cost of fuel is just not a factor. VW can not produce enough diesels to satisfy demand for them in the USA and Europe. The TDI has the highest retained value of any VW and recently the VW Jetta TDI has made headlines as having the highest retained resale value of any recent used car. Ford, GM and Dodge charge over $4000 extra for diesel in their trucks and they can not meet demand. Finding diesel fuel has NEVER been a problem anywhere in the US when I drive diesel.
New additions to the 2004 Passat lineup also debuted at this year’s Detroit Show, including a Passat 2.0L TDI sedan and wagon. This new engine choice uses Volkswagen’s most advanced diesel technology with state-of-the-art unit injectors that create the industry’s highest PSI fuel delivery system. This electronically controlled engine creates an estimated 134 hp and 247 lbs. ft. of torque. The Passat sedan with the TDI engine offers a spirited, high-torque driving experience and exceptional refinement and fuel economy.
The MSRP price of the Passat GL TDI sedan is $23,060 and the Passat GL Wagon TDI is $24,060.
Although there are no prices it appears that VW may have decided on the spec for the Passat TDi. 4motion and tiptronic only.
I drove the latest tiptronic on a 1.8t and frankly I think it's probably the best slushbox/gearbox comprimise out there. I currently have a '98 tiptronic 1.8T passat and the latest software is even better.
For those of you with a 2001.5+ car with a tip box there is a way to take the auto upshift off...
Was at a dealership in Guelph today. No TDI until April. Issue is that they can't make enough engines to meet expected demand in North Americal. I've been told the demand is huge!!!!! People putting deposits down even before build date is known!!
"Even the best diesel engine cannot match the refinement of a comparable gasoline engine. I know diesel technology has come a long way in the last twenty years. In Europe diesels are popular because gasoline costs more than 4 bucks a gallon. Fuel efficiency is a bigger factor in Europe than in the US in deciding what type of car to buy. Besides, most pumps in the US don't even carry diesel fuel anyway. A lot has to change in this country before diesel becomes truly popular. "
- The VW diesel engines beat any GM pushrod in refinement any day of the week. Period. - In Europe, price is a big factor. You are correct. Diesel is also expensive like petrol, but getting twice the mileage lowers expense for most. But most people there accept diesel as comparable to petrol, so they don't see any comprimise. - Yes, things have to change in the US before diesel is widely accepted. Sulphur levels must be reduced. also, American attitudes and misconceptions must be changed. Most Americans are very ignorant about diesels (like yourself) and dismiss them as "unrefined" technology. A little education would go a long way. Their performance is vastly improved and in many ways, as refined as many petrol engines. I would assert that the VW diesels rank much lower in NVH than the GM pushrods. Just drive one!!!
- Diesel is available at about 75-80% of the gas stations around my area. Fuel is not a problem. Plus, if diesels become more popular, stations will begin to carry it more readily.
- And why haven't we seen a diesel hybrid yet??? That would just be the ultimate kicker!!! Lacking HP, perhaps?
- I personally am hedging all bets on Fuel cells. Hybrids and diesels will hold us over until Fuel Cells hit the masses. But that's over a decade away. Exciting technology, though. I just hope old-timers and close-minded Detroit jumps on the bandwagon and quits trying to gouge profits at progress' expense.
"The production version will have a new diesel hybrid powertrain consisting of a 250 horsepower V8 diesel engine and a 50 kilowatt electric motor. With 234 kW of total power and 860 Nm of torque available, the Vision Grand Sports Tourer can sprint from zero to 100 km/h in just 6.6 seconds, says the company."
Not lacking in power. Perhaps the Passat will have a diesel hybrid option in the future.
Horsepower tends to be low on Diesels but torque is huge, the 2.0l TDI is almost 250 #/ft. In the US torque is a bigger factor in driveability than HP, otherwise we could all be driving 1.2 liter twin-turbos with 300HP at a 10000RPM redline.
The lack of popularity of a Diesel has more to do with ingnorance than any real disadvantage.
Though i don't drive a passat a do drive a golf estate TDI (i think in the US you call this a jetta variant or wagon). It has the 115hp, 210lb/ft engine, the orignal pump duse diesel engine. The new engine that will go in the passat is an evolution of this engine, so it will only get better. The in gear acceleration is amazing, and to put it perspective this engine has more torque than a porsche boxster. My car has a 6 speed gear box and it will happily accelerate up a hill from 65 to 80mph in 6th gear. The passat will have a much more powerful engine so it will only be faster.
I have been to the US recently, and I am amazed at what you find resonable 'mileage' as you call it (we refer to it as mpg , miles per gallon) In England my golf will easily do over 50mpg, and this is good, a car with a figure above 30 mpg is resonable, anything below is very poor. A passat with a similar engine over here will still average over 50mpg. Yet you find 20mpg ok, just because you petrol prices are lower doesn't make this alright, it still causes a huge amount of pollution and wastes our rapidly dwindling natural resources.
The new Passat is the way forward, it is fast, well engineered and efficient. It is very refined, the engine noise is very low when cruising. You don't need a bigger car, we cope with what you call small cars, the passat over here is classed as a large family car and will easily serve a family of 4 with all their luggage, especially if you by the wagon or estate version. You should definately buy a passat when it is released, or at least take it for a test drive before you say diesels are bad. I promise you that you will be impressed.
Welcome to Town Hall, william77. It's interesting to hear your perspective on diesel, as they aren't sold or purchased in widespread numbers here. However, I would debate your point that UK drivers and cars are more fuel-conscious out of the goodness of their hearts. I have a family member (in Devon) who own a Passat, and it doesn't get much over 20 MPG either.
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I'm originally from Austria and happen to have a friend there who owns a VW/Audi/Porsche dealership. Back in September, I had the pleasure of driving an Audi A3 with the 2.0 TDI engine - amazing! This engine, besides being "good on diesel", is one of the most drivable powerplants out there. For decent, everyday acceleration, you DO NOT have to rev the engine like you would with a gasoline I4 or V6. Drive in 3rd gear at 2,000 RPM and floor it and this thing moves.
Never mind engine wear. If you don't end up with a lemon (and every manufacturer has a couple of those), you can expect 250,000 or 300,000 km's - no problem. We did 220 km/h and you hardly every heard the engine work, which wouldn't be an issue here anyway with the stricter speed limits and - never mind - the fine/insurance premium tie-ins (which is a whole other issue).
I suggest you go to your local VW dealer as soon as this car is in and take it our for a test drive - you won't regret it!! ESPECIALLY THOSE DIESEL-OPPOSERS! I guess they wouldn't be reading this message board anyways!?
There are a couple of other engines I'd prefer, but the vehicles they are in are a bit pricier (V10 TDI 313HP in the Tuareg, for example).
Unless you are on the road a lot, I personally don't think the diesel vs. gasoline consumption is a big issue. The real pleasure comes with driving it.
So no manual transmission? Is this some kind of sick joke? When I was in Europe this past summer I saw a number of TDI Passats and thought they were really sweet. I remembered wishing they would sell them in the US...So today I happen to stumble upon an article talking about the Passat TDI due here soon. I was ecstatic.
And then I read some posts in the message board. Why no manual? Do they come with manuals in Europe? I would think they would include a manual, even it was just to lower the price and perhaps slightly improve MPG. I really can't believe it. If there's no manual in sight, I won't buy it. This really breaks my heart.
On the VW website, specifically the 2004 NAIAS Detroit show, the 5-speed auto is listed as an option and no transmission is described in the "standard equipment" section. I think a manual will be the standard choice.
Well, if that's so, how come it lists the 5-speed Tiptronic under options/packages? It makes no mention of it under "standard performance features." The car's transmission is a big feature; if there was a standard automatic, I'm sure they'd make sure that people knew it was standard. Plus, the TDI is about fuel economy and frugality; having a manual transmission standard is only logical. I've sent VW an email regarding this. Hopefully they'll respond soon. I've got my fingers crossed.
I have seen the VW ordering information for the Passat. There is no order number for the tdi with a manual transmission. It can only be ordered with the 5 speed tiptronic at this time.
Over 12 months of constant complaining about no manual transmission on the Passat TDI. Tell it to VWOA. If it were up to me I'd offer a manual transmission just to stop the whining. VW is selling the only diesel midsize car in the US and Canada when they offer the Passat and the only compacts with the Jetta, Golf, and New Beetle. Demand for diesel cars exceeds supply and there are no other options. I can only guess at VW's motives in not offering a Passat TDI with manual. 1. Limited number of Passat TDI will sell easily irregardless of transmission. 2. Less expense to certify only one transmission/engine. 3. Over 95% of midsize cars are sold with automatic.
You don't have to believe me when I say there is no manual in the Passat TDI but when you see there are no manuals at dealers you will believe.
Apparently VW doesn't care. Either that or they're just lazy. I guess that goes hand-in-hand with the American consumer. Good for them. "Irregardless" isn't a word, by the way.
It is a wonder that VWOA even offers the diesel in North America in a $24-30,000 vehicle. What is the point of saving a few hundred a year on fuel when the fuel is $1.45 gallon. Not lazy. Wealth and inexpensive energy. By the way, irregardless is a word coined early in the 20th century, even if it does not qualify as "Formal" english.
I bought an 03 Jetta TDI wagon last year. I usually prefer a manual transmission and only test drove the manual tranmission TDI's when I visited the dealer. I had been kicking around the idea of a TDI for a couple of years and test drove different Golfs and Jetta TDI's - always manual. I couldn't imagine how an automatic TDI would perform with only 90 HP and 150 lb ft of torque.
Well I got real serious on the TDI purchase and decided the Jetta wagon was the perfect body style for my needs. Next choice was trim level - loaded GLS, leather, heated seats etc.
Then just for the heck of it I took an automatic TDI wagon for a spin and absolutely fell in love with it. All that low end torque is perfect for an automatic. No kidding it feels like I have a V8 under the hood from a stop, just a little tap of the gas and it goes. My Jetta is last years 90 HP with a 4 speed automatic - I want to take an 04 Jetta TDI out for a test with the pump deus and 5 speed auto - not that I'd trade mine, it's a fantastic vehicle. I get around 40 mpg in mostly city driving - can't beat that.
Don't knock a TDI automatic until you've driven one.
I may trade this Jetta for a next generation Passat Diesel wagon in a couple of years - I'd like to see it with a six speed manual by then (and 4motion)- if not an automatic will be more than acceptable.
Now that I've had time to get used to the TDI I have to say I prefer the diesel driving dynamics to a gas engine. The fuel economy is nice but the way it drives has me hooked.
I'm not "knocking" anything. From what I've heard, VW's autos are pretty good. But I prefer to row the gears myself. I really can't see myself buying a car with an auto.
I usually prefer a manual and must have test drove 10 manual TDI's in two years. The diesel is a different beast as far as driving dynamics go. 4,500 RPM redline, all the torque is there around 2,000 RPM, I didn't like it with a manual as much as the automatic - it's not at all like driving a gasoline engined manual - test drive both to see what you think.
Ok I have heard that the body style will be changing mid year 2004/2005. Is this still true? I also read where it might not be until 2006. Does anybody have the facts?
Never driven a TDI auto, but on the gasser, it shifts crisply without jolting. If you put your foot in it, it doesn't shift until the tach hits the redline EXACTLY. Absolutely perfect for a gasser--I assume the TDI shift points would be programmed differently.
The consensus among the magazines is that the next-generation Passat will be introduced to the public sometime later this year, will become available in EU in '05, but will not show up in North American until '06. This explains the wide range of dates you've heard on this topic - first the "car show" intro, then EU sales start, then US sales. For reasons known only to VW, they take longer to get from one end of this process to the other than any other manufacturer in the world...18-24 months from first showing at a show to first real dealer availability here.
Yes - The TDI automatic will shift at redline which in a TDI is all of 4,500 RPM. Unlike a gasser it really isn't that adventageous to wind the diesel up to redline for the best performance. The automatic in the TDI is one that will let you shift it with your foot, I let up on the gas pedal during hard acceleration so it shifs to the next gear around 3,000 to 3,500 RPM which kicks it into the torque band anything above 4,000 is a waste of time. What's really interesting is cruising on the highway at 60 to 70 MPH (in 4th gear obviously in the auto) - kick it in the pants at that speed and you're doing 100 very quickly, its very responsive at highway speeds. I've had my diesel wagon up to 125 just to see what it would do. It cruises very comfortably at 100 (with the Valentine one on course).
I'd never owned a diesel before my 03 Jetta wagon which has 12,000 miles on it now. I have a totally different driving style from driving a gasser.
The next generation Golf V Jetta V and Passat VI will be coming over here in the next year and a half. They are all based on the same platform which is much improved over the current cars. I'm basing this mainly on all the improvements to the Golf V which is already out in Europe. 80% more chassis rigidity, multi-link rear suspension (huge improvement) and my favorite 2+ inches in the wheelbase that all goes to rear seat legroom.
I've seen some renderings of what the next generation Passat will look like - it's gorgeous. I'll be waiting for the next generation Passat in a year to a year and a half.
Well I drive in city traffic and must have an automatic transmission. I own a golf tdi 4speed auto which I was interested in partly because I figured that the diesel engine would be a good partner for the automatic - and it is. And even though the mileage is down from the manual its still great for an automatic transmissioned car (I get 40mpg in mixed driving) The only thing I would change would be to make it a 5 speed because at 80 mph the rpms are at around 3000. Another gear would be appreciated to keep the engine down where its strongest and most relaxed. So I think the Passat would be ideal with the 5sp auto. Also I assume the 4 wheel drive version would be better because it has rear independent suspension (unlike the 2 wheel drive version) and the big torque of the engine would presumably compensate for the extra weight.
I have test driven the 90-hp Jetta diesel with manual transmission. And, it runs smoother than my 2003 gasoline Golf (with manual transmission, of course).
No matter how much automatics are hyped up, in Real-World driving, they DO get less MPG. Depending on which vehicle you get, it costs $500 - $1500 MORE for an automatic.
And nothing can replace the pure enjoyment of using a clutch pedal and shifting for yourself. These automatics with "manual" shift modes are nothing more than manual wannabes.
I would rather have a manual Yugo than an automatic Mercedes.
The new Passat would have to be available in a manual for me to even consider buying one. Right now, I am waiting for the new 2005 diesel Golf which will be offered with a manual. Ditto with the Jetta. The higher performance diesel (130+ hp with well over 200 pounds of torque) is supposed to be offered in the new Golfs/Jettas in the US.
As for the claim that 95% of all mid-sized cars are automatic here in the US, that's because that is the only transmission available. And for people who need to have a mid-sized car, that's their only choice.
Noticed that Mercedes just a couple of years ago started offering again a manual in a couple of their US models.
Same with Volvo. And the new S40 will have a manual when the new model comes out.
There is even a new Cadilac with a 6-speed manual.
Notice that for luxury car companies like Mercedes and Volvo who stopped importing manuals to the US quite a while ago, they lost market share. But the car company in the same category and price as Mercedes and Volvo that has always offered a manual has GAINED market share during the same time period. That company is BMW.
Europe has always had manuals, and most cars sold over there are manuals. Finally, many companies are starting to offer more manuals in the US because the demand is there.
I became interested in diesel after hearing about Bio-Diesel which can used in current diesel cars without any modification. Bio-Diesel is a very clean fuel, can be manufactured entirely in the US, and is a renewable resource that can be made out of a lot of things, from seeds to even used restaurant grease. Bio-Diesel is recommended in Europe, but not in the US since our processing standards haven't met car manufacture's level of quality. We need to strongly encourage US Bio-Diesel producers to improve their quality up to German standards. This will give us a clean, renewable fuel and reduce our dependancy from sources that basically hate the US and Western countries. The infrastructure is already in place to supply diesel vehicles with fuel.
From the 2003 VW Golf brochure, The Golf diesel with a manual gets 42 MPG in the city. The automatic of the same car gets only 34 MPG. That's 23.5% BETTER fuel economy with a MANUAL.
Far better fuel economy, usually about $1000 cheaper when bought new, and the irreplaceable enjoyment of shifting, using a clutch, and driving for yourself (which automatics inherently can never have) make manual transmissions the clear winner and the only REAL transmission.
Manual only for me as well. I am extremely interested in the manual version, and would not even have the automatic on my radar.
Why should I buy an auto tranny car that
Is a thousand dollars more expensive. Gets worse fuel mileage. Is slower. Is less fun to drive. Offers less control. Is heavier (with all the extra weight in the nose) Is more likely to be borrowed (because anyone can drive it) Cannot be started by pushing if the battery dies. Costs much more to repair (new clutch $400, new Auto tranny way way more than that)
Of course with an automatic I can eat a big mac while I am driving. I gues that this is an important thing given the average girth of my fellow citizens. ; ^ )
Pretty heavy there! "Should not, will not". Guess this is an exclusive club, and some people feel they have the keys.
I certainly won't own one, and won't miss it if it is an automatic. That is just a fact, not a criticism of auto tranny owners. In the Passat application the manual performs better overall, and the automatic is easier. Not much to argue, just a matter of priorities.
I wonder why it upsets someone who wants an auto tranny if a manual will be offered? I don't think the reverse is true. Both trannies should be offered, and to be honest I don't even care if I have to pay more for the manual.
There is no shame in taking the easier path (auto tranny) after all that is what most people do.
Drivers who want the diesel/manual transmission combo may be best off waiting until the 2005 or 2006 Jetta is available. Advance news on its specifications suggest its interior dimensions will be within millimeters of the current Passat, and a six speed manual transmission will be available. A larger and improved Jetta with a diesel engine and six speed stick sounds inviting, and it will certainly be less expensive than a Passat.
All TDI manuals in the next generation VW's will be six speeds. It wouldn't suprise me if VW puts a six speed automatic in these cars someday as well.
As far as the automatic/ manual debate goes - I prefer manual transmissions to a point, but I'm not a fanatic about it.
I have an 01 BMW X5 3.0 which was available with a 5 speed manual (available with a nice diesel in Europe by the way). I've owned a bunch of BMW's all of which were manuals. Bottom line I didn't like the manual in the X5 - first gear was way too tall and I didn't like the way it shifted. The 04 X5 3.0 is available with a six speed manual. The BMW steptronic automatic is an increadable transmission - I've never put in in "manual" mode which I think is rediculous by the way. I much prefer the X5 with an automatic.
I had an 01 M3 with a six speed manual, when it's lease ended a few months ago I was close to trading it for an 03 M3 SMG - an electronically shifted manual transmission (has a clutch and manual transmission but no clutch pedal). VW has DSG available in Europe - similar technology except its more advanced, it can select the next gear via a second clutch. I won't go into all the features of DSG and SMG here, but predict these automatically shifted manual transmissions will be very popular - they shift faster than a human can, perfectly blip the throttle on downshifts, etc, etc. This is F1 race car technology, it is amazing - and easily as much fun or more fun than a traditional manual transmission. I've driven an MR2 Toyota with the same technology.
I ended up buying a Subaru WRX STi instead of leasing another M3 by the way.
I plan to trade my automatic Jetta TDI wagon in a couple years when the next generation VW's come out - probably a Passat TDI wagon, I'll drive the manual and automatic and make a decision on transmission then. Europe has 6 speed manual. 4Motion VW diesels available now.
I do a lot of in-town driving in my business and an automatic is easier to deal with. I get 40 mpg on average in my Jetta wagon which is great IMO. The lower fuel mileage and extra cost for the automatic don't bother me at all. I don't think there is anything sporty about a manual transmission TDI - it isn't anything like a gas engine manual.
quote "Of course with an automatic I can eat a big mac while I am driving. I gues that this is an important thing given the average girth of my fellow citizens. ; ^ )"
Not a criticism of auto transmission owners? Well, sure does not seem as if you are making a nice generalization.
VW may not be offering the manual due to very small market for manuals, maybe for emissions. If VW did offer the manual at least the constant complaining of no manual would be over.
And perhaps the inferring that auto transmission owners are not "drivers" would be deterred.
I forgot to mention that Mercedes makes quite a few manual transmissions available in their cars. Just about every C class is available with a six speed manual - 3.2 litre V6 and the supercharged 4 cyl have six speeds. The CLK's have manuals available too.
I've driven several and would get a C class with a manual -
The TDI is made for an automatic IMO - I'll test a Passat diesel automatic as soon as they hit my dealer. The 04 Jetta TDI has a 5 speed automatic.
Mercedes is also bringing back the diesel in their E Class later this year - I'll be taking one of those for a spin as well.
It seems like the big news in cars these days is transmissions. I'm very excited about SMG in BMWs and DSG in VWs. If/when the SMG shows up in the 3 series sedans I'll be looking at those. I don't think an automatic would be appropriate in a 325 and I probably can't afford a 330 so SMG promises to give me sport on the weekends and comfort on the commmute.
About the TDI - when I think about a comfortable sedan that can get me to work and chores with economy and power I think auto trans/diesel. When I want fun in the mountains I think gas/manual.
There's a rumor on another site that VW will make DSG available on all their cars including diesels - the best of both.
I agree from personal experience, give me a diesel with an automatic for my everyday cruiser. All the low end torque is a perfect complement to an automatic plus it's increadably responsive on the highway. For fun give me a nice gas engine and a manual. A diesel with a manual is missing the fun factor IMO, lots of very low end torque, a 4,500 RPM redline and a torque /HP peak of about 3,500 - 4,000 RPM don't equate to a satisfying manual transmission driving experience.
Just my 2 cents: I agree that diesels are great as far as MPG and efficiency and I'd be all for getting one.... except the emissions literally "stink!" Aside from the scientific fact that the biproduct contains carcinogens and more greenhouse gasses than petrolium based engines (a lot more), there is a suffocating smell that you just cannot appreciate until you've sat in european traffic. It's disgusting.
When a diesel car can pass the new emission standards, I'll feel better about it.
Seeing as how I live in Massachusetts, we're not allowed to buy them here until they do... hopefully that won't be long.
Diesels produce less C02 greenhouse gasses than gasoline engines. Much less. quote- Cars that run on diesel emit much less carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon that petrol equivalents. -end Gasoline emissions contain carcinogens. The emissions of gasoline engines have an odor that is unpleasant. Modern diesel engines produce virtually no odor, certainly comparable to or less than a gasoline engine. Diesel fuel is a combustible, gasoline is flammable. If I were to be rear ended I'd much rather be in a diesel vehicle that could possibly catch fire than a gasoline one that would possibly explode. Diesel may be refined from animal fats or vegetable and plant oils, therefore it is renewable and will be around when petroleum is not. Gasoline has no renewable replacement.
Me, I care enough about the environment to want to preserve it, and believe diesel is an intelligent approach to future vehicle fuel.
TDI diesel passes current Federal emissions standards. The only standards it does not meet is CARB. CARB is California Air Resources Board. CARB standards were enacted by the same people who forced the failed electric cars on CA taxpayers, from the same state that has a complete failure of an energy policy. My sympathy to anyone who lives in a state that uses CARB regulations.
Yes, they pass federal emissions. I was referring to CARB... a much more stringent standard that is not just CA... but MA (All of New England and New York have stricter standards than the rest of the country, but only CA, MA, and NY are the states I know of that have banned the sale/registration of 2004 diesels until they meet the new requirements).
Just to clarify, modern diesels are supposedly cleaner, yes? That being said, the current TDI Golf must NOT considered "modern," I assume, because 1) no common rail, 2) still a very bad odor (I was behind one this morning).
Again, I'm not "knocking" them (no pun intended), I'm just saying it's not all roses... yet.
The comment about cleaner emissions must only refer to european diesels: Quote from Consumer Reports, "Diesel engines typically get about 25 to 30 percent better fuel economy than similar-sized gasoline engines. But they also produce dirtier emissions, higher levels of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and fine particulates, or soot. To help, the Environmental Protection Agency has signed legislation that will severely lower the sulfur content in both gasoline and diesel fuel starting in 2004. This should result in some of the cleaner-burning diesels used in Europe being offered for sale in the U.S."
TDI is most certainly a European diesel and is a clean one. It utilizes high pressure unit injection. This system is as good or better than common rail. Diesel is a green technology and credited with reducing global warming in Europe and banned in CA. Same engines, same environment, only the politicians are different. As to your comment about the VW TDI I am surprised since having owned three VW TDI I am well aware of their performance and even with the garage door closed and engine running (not for a long time, of course;)) the exhaust emissions were barely perceptible. To be able to identify the odor in traffic? Hmmm...
Here is a quote from Canadian Driver on driving the 04 PD Jetta "In fact, this engine has accounted for quite a few converts to diesel - including yours truly. No longer smelly, noisy, gutless boat anchors, modern diesels like this have become a true alternative. Noise, vibration and odour have been all but eliminated and the production of torque - the turning or twisting force produced by an internal combustion engine - clearly surpasses that of similarly-sized gasoline engines.". I'm not paid to review cars, however, those that do often do not like diesels and the TDI has received good reviews even though it is a diesel.
But isn't Common Rail the latest and greatest technology that has yet to make it's way here? It was my understanding that all the best diesels were Common Rail... I believe this is what is inferred on http://www.dieselforum.org/
If I'm not mistaken, we can't have common rail technology until the sulphur is reduced. Common rail IS a high pressure system.
Maybe emissions are political... but they're clearly scientific as well. You know when you're behind someone whose emissions are not in spec... can you imagine if those controls didn't exist? Having spent a lot of time in Europe (I go to italy every year) I'm VERY VERY skeptical of diesel emissions. We had a diesel Ford Mondeo with all the latest tech and it had a fairly strong odor. Then again, Europe may not have the same requirements as CARB.
Our buses in boston are being replaced with CNG and a mix if particulate filters on the exhuast and it's making a huge difference (not that cars are that bad, but there are many more cars - potentially - than buses).
It wasn't even traffic that I could sense the diesel in. It was at a stop light. When it turned green, the diesel smell came right through the cabin air filter into my car with the heat on. Golf TDI.
Comments
VW can not produce enough diesels to satisfy demand for them in the USA and Europe. The TDI has the highest retained value of any VW and recently the VW Jetta TDI has made headlines as having the highest retained resale value of any recent used car. Ford, GM and Dodge charge over $4000 extra for diesel in their trucks and they can not meet demand. Finding diesel fuel has NEVER been a problem anywhere in the US when I drive diesel.
The MSRP price of the Passat GL TDI sedan is $23,060 and the Passat GL Wagon TDI is $24,060.
http://autos.en.msn.ca/vip/pricereplist.aspx?modelid=10274&sr- c=vip
Although there are no prices it appears that VW may have decided on the spec for the Passat TDi. 4motion and tiptronic only.
I drove the latest tiptronic on a 1.8t and frankly I think it's probably the best slushbox/gearbox comprimise out there. I currently have a '98 tiptronic 1.8T passat and the latest software is even better.
For those of you with a 2001.5+ car with a tip box there is a way to take the auto upshift off...
Tiptronic is the only transmission. That part is correct.
- The VW diesel engines beat any GM pushrod in refinement any day of the week. Period.
- In Europe, price is a big factor. You are correct. Diesel is also expensive like petrol, but getting twice the mileage lowers expense for most. But most people there accept diesel as comparable to petrol, so they don't see any comprimise.
- Yes, things have to change in the US before diesel is widely accepted. Sulphur levels must be reduced. also, American attitudes and misconceptions must be changed. Most Americans are very ignorant about diesels (like yourself) and dismiss them as "unrefined" technology. A little education would go a long way. Their performance is vastly improved and in many ways, as refined as many petrol engines. I would assert that the VW diesels rank much lower in NVH than the GM pushrods. Just drive one!!!
- Diesel is available at about 75-80% of the gas stations around my area. Fuel is not a problem. Plus, if diesels become more popular, stations will begin to carry it more readily.
- And why haven't we seen a diesel hybrid yet??? That would just be the ultimate kicker!!! Lacking HP, perhaps?
- I personally am hedging all bets on Fuel cells. Hybrids and diesels will hold us over until Fuel Cells hit the masses. But that's over a decade away. Exciting technology, though. I just hope old-timers and close-minded Detroit jumps on the bandwagon and quits trying to gouge profits at progress' expense.
"The production version will have a new diesel hybrid powertrain consisting of a 250 horsepower V8 diesel engine and a 50 kilowatt electric motor. With 234 kW of total power and 860 Nm of torque available, the Vision Grand Sports Tourer can sprint from zero to 100 km/h in just 6.6 seconds, says the company."
Not lacking in power. Perhaps the Passat will have a diesel hybrid option in the future.
The lack of popularity of a Diesel has more to do with ingnorance than any real disadvantage.
250 lb./ft with a CVT or 6-speed manual...how sweet it would be.
137hp would be noticeable if you're trying to pass on the highway doing 75mph+, but if i can pass with a 96hp 4-banger, 137hp should be ok.
V8 diesel and hybrid? isn't that an oxymoron? what's wrong with a 4 or 6?!?! sheesh.
I have been to the US recently, and I am amazed at what you find resonable 'mileage' as you call it (we refer to it as mpg , miles per gallon) In England my golf will easily do over 50mpg, and this is good, a car with a figure above 30 mpg is resonable, anything below is very poor. A passat with a similar engine over here will still average over 50mpg. Yet you find 20mpg ok, just because you petrol prices are lower doesn't make this alright, it still causes a huge amount of pollution and wastes our rapidly dwindling natural resources.
The new Passat is the way forward, it is fast, well engineered and efficient. It is very refined, the engine noise is very low when cruising. You don't need a bigger car, we cope with what you call small cars, the passat over here is classed as a large family car and will easily serve a family of 4 with all their luggage, especially if you by the wagon or estate version. You should definately buy a passat when it is released, or at least take it for a test drive before you say diesels are bad. I promise you that you will be impressed.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Never mind engine wear. If you don't end up with a lemon (and every manufacturer has a couple of those), you can expect 250,000 or 300,000 km's - no problem. We did 220 km/h and you hardly every heard the engine work, which wouldn't be an issue here anyway with the stricter speed limits and - never mind - the fine/insurance premium tie-ins (which is a whole other issue).
I suggest you go to your local VW dealer as soon as this car is in and take it our for a test drive - you won't regret it!! ESPECIALLY THOSE DIESEL-OPPOSERS! I guess they wouldn't be reading this message board anyways!?
There are a couple of other engines I'd prefer, but the vehicles they are in are a bit pricier (V10 TDI 313HP in the Tuareg, for example).
Unless you are on the road a lot, I personally don't think the diesel vs. gasoline consumption is a big issue. The real pleasure comes with driving it.
And then I read some posts in the message board. Why no manual? Do they come with manuals in Europe? I would think they would include a manual, even it was just to lower the price and perhaps slightly improve MPG. I really can't believe it. If there's no manual in sight, I won't buy it. This really breaks my heart.
PS- Can you post the link the area on the VW site where you got the info? Thanks!
VW is selling the only diesel midsize car in the US and Canada when they offer the Passat and the only compacts with the Jetta, Golf, and New Beetle. Demand for diesel cars exceeds supply and there are no other options. I can only guess at VW's motives in not offering a Passat TDI with manual.
1. Limited number of Passat TDI will sell easily irregardless of transmission.
2. Less expense to certify only one transmission/engine.
3. Over 95% of midsize cars are sold with automatic.
You don't have to believe me when I say there is no manual in the Passat TDI but when you see there are no manuals at dealers you will believe.
By the way, irregardless is a word coined early in the 20th century, even if it does not qualify as "Formal" english.
Well I got real serious on the TDI purchase and decided the Jetta wagon was the perfect body style for my needs. Next choice was trim level - loaded GLS, leather, heated seats etc.
Then just for the heck of it I took an automatic TDI wagon for a spin and absolutely fell in love with it. All that low end torque is perfect for an automatic. No kidding it feels like I have a V8 under the hood from a stop, just a little tap of the gas and it goes. My Jetta is last years 90 HP with a 4 speed automatic - I want to take an 04 Jetta TDI out for a test with the pump deus and 5 speed auto - not that I'd trade mine, it's a fantastic vehicle. I get around 40 mpg in mostly city driving - can't beat that.
Don't knock a TDI automatic until you've driven one.
I may trade this Jetta for a next generation Passat Diesel wagon in a couple of years - I'd like to see it with a six speed manual by then (and 4motion)- if not an automatic will be more than acceptable.
Now that I've had time to get used to the TDI I have to say I prefer the diesel driving dynamics to a gas engine. The fuel economy is nice but the way it drives has me hooked.
I'd never owned a diesel before my 03 Jetta wagon which has 12,000 miles on it now. I have a totally different driving style from driving a gasser.
I've seen some renderings of what the next generation Passat will look like - it's gorgeous. I'll be waiting for the next generation Passat in a year to a year and a half.
No matter how much automatics are hyped up, in Real-World driving, they DO get less MPG.
Depending on which vehicle you get, it costs $500 - $1500 MORE for an automatic.
And nothing can replace the pure enjoyment of using a clutch pedal and shifting for yourself.
These automatics with "manual" shift modes are nothing more than manual wannabes.
I would rather have a manual Yugo than an automatic Mercedes.
The new Passat would have to be available in a manual for me to even consider buying one.
Right now, I am waiting for the new 2005 diesel Golf which will be offered with a manual. Ditto with the Jetta. The higher performance diesel (130+ hp with well over 200 pounds of torque) is supposed to be offered in the new Golfs/Jettas in the US.
As for the claim that 95% of all mid-sized cars are automatic here in the US, that's because that is the only transmission available. And for people who need to have a mid-sized car, that's their only choice.
Noticed that Mercedes just a couple of years ago started offering again a manual in a couple of their US models.
Same with Volvo. And the new S40 will have a manual when the new model comes out.
There is even a new Cadilac with a 6-speed manual.
Notice that for luxury car companies like Mercedes and Volvo who stopped importing manuals to the US quite a while ago, they lost market share. But the car company in the same category and price as Mercedes and Volvo that has always offered a manual has GAINED market share during the same time period. That company is BMW.
Europe has always had manuals, and most cars sold over there are manuals.
Finally, many companies are starting to offer more manuals in the US because the demand is there.
I became interested in diesel after hearing about Bio-Diesel which can used in current diesel cars without any modification.
Bio-Diesel is a very clean fuel, can be manufactured entirely in the US, and is a renewable resource that can be made out of a lot of things, from seeds to even used restaurant grease.
Bio-Diesel is recommended in Europe, but not in the US since our processing standards haven't met car manufacture's level of quality.
We need to strongly encourage US Bio-Diesel producers to improve their quality up to German standards.
This will give us a clean, renewable fuel and reduce our dependancy from sources that basically hate the US and Western countries.
The infrastructure is already in place to supply diesel vehicles with fuel.
From the 2003 VW Golf brochure, The Golf diesel with a manual gets 42 MPG in the city. The automatic of the same car gets only 34 MPG.
That's 23.5% BETTER fuel economy with a MANUAL.
Far better fuel economy, usually about $1000 cheaper when bought new, and the irreplaceable enjoyment of shifting, using a clutch, and driving for yourself (which automatics inherently can never have) make manual transmissions the clear winner and the only REAL transmission.
Why should I buy an auto tranny car that
Is a thousand dollars more expensive.
Gets worse fuel mileage.
Is slower.
Is less fun to drive.
Offers less control.
Is heavier (with all the extra weight in the nose)
Is more likely to be borrowed (because anyone can drive it)
Cannot be started by pushing if the battery dies.
Costs much more to repair (new clutch $400, new Auto tranny way way more than that)
Of course with an automatic I can eat a big mac while I am driving. I gues that this is an important thing given the average girth of my fellow citizens. ; ^ )
I certainly won't own one, and won't miss it if it is an automatic. That is just a fact, not a criticism of auto tranny owners. In the Passat application the manual performs better overall, and the automatic is easier. Not much to argue, just a matter of priorities.
I wonder why it upsets someone who wants an auto tranny if a manual will be offered? I don't think the reverse is true. Both trannies should be offered, and to be honest I don't even care if I have to pay more for the manual.
There is no shame in taking the easier path (auto tranny) after all that is what most people do.
As far as the automatic/ manual debate goes - I prefer manual transmissions to a point, but I'm not a fanatic about it.
I have an 01 BMW X5 3.0 which was available with a 5 speed manual (available with a nice diesel in Europe by the way). I've owned a bunch of BMW's all of which were manuals. Bottom line I didn't like the manual in the X5 - first gear was way too tall and I didn't like the way it shifted. The 04 X5 3.0 is available with a six speed manual. The BMW steptronic automatic is an increadable transmission - I've never put in in "manual" mode which I think is rediculous by the way. I much prefer the X5 with an automatic.
I had an 01 M3 with a six speed manual, when it's lease ended a few months ago I was close to trading it for an 03 M3 SMG - an electronically shifted manual transmission (has a clutch and manual transmission but no clutch pedal). VW has DSG available in Europe - similar technology except its more advanced, it can select the next gear via a second clutch. I won't go into all the features of DSG and SMG here, but predict these automatically shifted manual transmissions will be very popular - they shift faster than a human can, perfectly blip the throttle on downshifts, etc, etc. This is F1 race car technology, it is amazing - and easily as much fun or more fun than a traditional manual transmission. I've driven an MR2 Toyota with the same technology.
I ended up buying a Subaru WRX STi instead of leasing another M3 by the way.
I plan to trade my automatic Jetta TDI wagon in a couple years when the next generation VW's come out - probably a Passat TDI wagon, I'll drive the manual and automatic and make a decision on transmission then. Europe has 6 speed manual. 4Motion VW diesels available now.
I do a lot of in-town driving in my business and an automatic is easier to deal with. I get 40 mpg on average in my Jetta wagon which is great IMO. The lower fuel mileage and extra cost for the automatic don't bother me at all. I don't think there is anything sporty about a manual transmission TDI - it isn't anything like a gas engine manual.
Not a criticism of auto transmission owners? Well, sure does not seem as if you are making a nice generalization.
VW may not be offering the manual due to very small market for manuals, maybe for emissions.
If VW did offer the manual at least the constant complaining of no manual would be over.
And perhaps the inferring that auto transmission owners are not "drivers" would be deterred.
I've driven several and would get a C class with a manual -
The TDI is made for an automatic IMO - I'll test a Passat diesel automatic as soon as they hit my dealer. The 04 Jetta TDI has a 5 speed automatic.
Mercedes is also bringing back the diesel in their E Class later this year - I'll be taking one of those for a spin as well.
About the TDI - when I think about a comfortable sedan that can get me to work and chores with economy and power I think auto trans/diesel. When I want fun in the mountains I think gas/manual.
I agree from personal experience, give me a diesel with an automatic for my everyday cruiser. All the low end torque is a perfect complement to an automatic plus it's increadably responsive on the highway. For fun give me a nice gas engine and a manual. A diesel with a manual is missing the fun factor IMO, lots of very low end torque, a 4,500 RPM redline and a torque /HP peak of about 3,500 - 4,000 RPM don't equate to a satisfying manual transmission driving experience.
When a diesel car can pass the new emission standards, I'll feel better about it.
Seeing as how I live in Massachusetts, we're not allowed to buy them here until they do... hopefully that won't be long.
By the way, if this hasn't been posted already, take a peak at the upcoming passat here: http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000207702.cfm
What a looker.
quote- Cars that run on diesel emit much less carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and hydrocarbon that petrol equivalents. -end
Gasoline emissions contain carcinogens. The emissions of gasoline engines have an odor that is unpleasant. Modern diesel engines produce virtually no odor, certainly comparable to or less than a gasoline engine.
Diesel fuel is a combustible, gasoline is flammable. If I were to be rear ended I'd much rather be in a diesel vehicle that could possibly catch fire than a gasoline one that would possibly explode.
Diesel may be refined from animal fats or vegetable and plant oils, therefore it is renewable and will be around when petroleum is not.
Gasoline has no renewable replacement.
Me, I care enough about the environment to want to preserve it, and believe diesel is an intelligent approach to future vehicle fuel.
CARB standards were enacted by the same people who forced the failed electric cars on CA taxpayers, from the same state that has a complete failure of an energy policy.
My sympathy to anyone who lives in a state that uses CARB regulations.
Just to clarify, modern diesels are supposedly cleaner, yes? That being said, the current TDI Golf must NOT considered "modern," I assume, because 1) no common rail, 2) still a very bad odor (I was behind one this morning).
Again, I'm not "knocking" them (no pun intended), I'm just saying it's not all roses... yet.
The comment about cleaner emissions must only refer to european diesels: Quote from Consumer Reports, "Diesel engines typically get about 25 to 30 percent better fuel economy than similar-sized gasoline engines. But they also produce dirtier emissions, higher levels of smog-forming nitrogen oxides and fine particulates, or soot. To help, the Environmental Protection Agency has signed legislation that will severely lower the sulfur content in both gasoline and diesel fuel starting in 2004. This should result in some of the cleaner-burning diesels used in Europe being offered for sale in the U.S."
As to your comment about the VW TDI I am surprised since having owned three VW TDI I am well aware of their performance and even with the garage door closed and engine running (not for a long time, of course;)) the exhaust emissions were barely perceptible. To be able to identify the odor in traffic? Hmmm...
I'm not paid to review cars, however, those that do often do not like diesels and the TDI has received good reviews even though it is a diesel.
If I'm not mistaken, we can't have common rail technology until the sulphur is reduced. Common rail IS a high pressure system.
Maybe emissions are political... but they're clearly scientific as well. You know when you're behind someone whose emissions are not in spec... can you imagine if those controls didn't exist? Having spent a lot of time in Europe (I go to italy every year) I'm VERY VERY skeptical of diesel emissions. We had a diesel Ford Mondeo with all the latest tech and it had a fairly strong odor. Then again, Europe may not have the same requirements as CARB.
Our buses in boston are being replaced with CNG and a mix if particulate filters on the exhuast and it's making a huge difference (not that cars are that bad, but there are many more cars - potentially - than buses).