Here's my 2 cents VW has a Lupo 3 cyl diesel that gives you 75 mpg compare to hybrid, you can't beat that at the moment. So why VW haven't sell these cars here, good ?
Nimh does not contain heavy metals that can pollute such as Cadmium(NiCD) or Lead(Lead Acid). Those AA NiMh rechargables can be thrown legally in any landfills in US. Many arguments I see here are based on old battery technologies.
"For those who don't understand how a hybrid works, it captures the vehicles energy when slowing by re-charging batteries instead of just converting kinetic energy to heat via the brakes."
That is only one of the concept. Hybrids can recapture energy back from the moving engine pistons as well. Hybrid Synergy Drive can split power from ICE and convert it to high torque electric power on-the-fly during slow speed or climbing hill conditions. Many Prius owners say their battery almost never run out.
I have a very real world question. Let me set the scenario. Going north on I-5 out of LA, you hit the Tejon Pass. In rough terms, you climb over 4000 feet in 5 miles or so. When I did this in my '81 diesel Rabbit, I had to move over for faster traffic but the little sucker held 50-55 all the way up. If I were in a hybrid and the batteries were discharged before hitting the top, I would have semis honking for me to get out of their way. Would a Prius or Honda Civic hybrid make it to the top with the IMA still assisting?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Diesel engine has high torque at low RPM but not much horsepower. Electric motor also has similar properties. Gas engine's torque is highest at mid-high RPM. So, it makes more sense to match gas with electric since they complement each other.
"Would a Prius or Honda Civic hybrid make it to the top with the IMA still assisting?"
Prius probably would. I don't know about HCH. Hybrid Synergy Drive defies conventional thinking. When you reach to the top of the hill, Prius battery would be full, not empty. Prius has two electric motors/generators. HSD can generate electricity and provide power to electric motor at the same time. HSD will route excess horsepower from the engine and convert it into electricity. This dynamic adjustment in drivetrain provides high torque in conditions like climbing hills when high torque is desire. 50 kilowatts electric motor is capable of producing 295 lbs-ft torque.
"His test for a car is whether it can carry four adults from a standing start up steep Marin Avenue in Berkeley to reach 25 mph. How fast did he get it going? "Twenty-five, of course, is the speed limit. I wouldn't go over that."
"Prius probably would. I don't know about HCH. Hybrid Synergy Drive defies conventional thinking. When you reach to the top of the hill, Prius battery would be full."
They may defy some modes of thinking, but not the laws of physics. It takes 'x' amount of power to move a 'y'lb car up 'z' feet in 1 second. This is the way power is *defined*. If you're expending more power climbing than the gas engine is producing, you will discharge the batteries.
Since the HCH has ( 9 ) more horsepower from its gas motor than the pirus, it would likely do better on this particular test.
Well, when climbing a hill, torque is more important than horsepower. HP is a function of HP and RPM. When climbing hill, you would not want engine to accelerate in RPM. You want to maintain current speed and that's where high torque comes in handy. The same idea with trucker trailers with diesel engine with high torque.
Horsepower combines speed and torque. Torque by itself won't do anything. Imagine maintaining 60 mph while engine turns at 1 rpm while having 1000 lb.-ft.
You are right. My point is, torque is more important than horsepower when going uphill. When going downhill, it is reverse. Going uphill is as if the car get heavier. That's why i brought up trucker trailer. Hypothetically speaking, if you have 3,000 lbs car with 150hp and 82 lbs-ft torque, it will not climb hill very well. But 300 lbs-ft torque with 50 hp car would climb well.
The beauty of HSD is that it can dynamically transform the drivetrain as needed.
"When you reach to the top of the hill, Prius battery would be full, not empty."
Sounds like Toyota figured out how to defy the laws of physics.
Of course if you took out all of the hybrid parts and brought the weight down a couple hundred lbs, then the car would need less assisting in the first place.
Diesels have high torque all the time, not just when the batteries are fully charged.
"Sounds like Toyota figured out how to defy the laws of physics."
Nope. If the hill is steep enough so that more power is required than Prius ICE can produce, battery will eventually run out. The concept of HSD is to transform the drivetrain to driving conditions and use available power in it's most efficient form. In this case, more torque and less horsepower. Therefore, avoiding inefficient situations.
"Of course if you took out all of the hybrid parts and brought the weight down a couple hundred lbs, then the car would need less assisting in the first place."
"Diesels have high torque all the time, not just when the batteries are fully charged."
Since HSD can recharge battery on demand, the battery will almost never run out. Do you need high torque all the time? Do you need more horsepower other times? Can Diesel engine adjust torque/horsepower ratio on-the-fly? HSD can!
"My point is, torque is more important than horsepower when going uphill"
And that is a wrong point. In the end, you NEED sufficient HP to keep moving.
Would a car have more trouble keeping up speed going 60 mph with 1000 lb.-ft at 1 rpm, or at the same speed with 50 HP at some rpm? I'm going to pick the latter. Wouldn't you?
If you wouldn't, imagine the gear ratio you would need to translate 1 rpm from the engine to 60 mph at the wheels.
Well, considering that your first choice yields 0.19 HP, I'll go with the 50 HP.
As for this gem, "Can Diesel engine adjust torque/horsepower ratio on-the-fly?" Uh, all cars can do that, 'cause they have this magic box interposed betwixt the engine and driving wheels. It's called a "transmission."
Much as I like the Prius, I'm just trying to picture one making the climb up to the Eisenhower tunnel on I70 west of Denver. 6000 feet of altitude gain between Denver and the tunnel, putting you at 11,000 ft. above sea level. In a normally aspirated engine, you lose about 3% of your rated power for each 1000 ft of altitude above sea level. Means the Prius's 76 HP gas engine starts the climb at 65 or so, and is lucky to be making 50 HP at the tunnel entrance. In a 2900 lb. car. Think the batteries'll last all the way up?
I said that? LOL. It is a typo. I meant, HP is a function of torque and RPM. I am totally out of it after amount of posting today. If you think I recite from Toyota's press release, read more of my posts. I provided graphs and charts from independent tests. If this is the first time you read my message, I am sorry because I will not have a second chance to make a good first impression.
I will post more in details with explanation tomorrow. Have a nice day!
"The Only Thing You Really Need to Know Repeat after me. "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*." :-)"
Hopefully this will settle the debate on HP and Torque and we can get into the gearing debate....
Without one, the other doesn't exist....etc, etc. etc, I'll take my 100HP and FLAT Torque curve of 177ft/lbs any day. 100HP isn't alot for a car with a curb weight of 3000lbs, but it gets out into traffic just as quickly and easily as my 98 Corolla with 120HP, 122ft/lbs and a curb weight of 2426lbs. AND it'll do 105mph with no problems what-so-ever (do you really NEED to go faster than 80mph while driving on public streets though?)
As for the Hybrids, dunno, never drove one as the dealers could never get them onto the lots in sufficient time.
"If you think I recite from Toyota's press release, read more of my posts."
That's where i got the idea.
"I provided graphs and charts from independent tests."
And what tests show that torque is what is needed to get you up a hill, not HP? What tests show the battery power will increase when engine power is exceeded?
A lot of the confusion with "torque" and "hp" is simply due to people's use of RPM. An engine that has more torque than HP typically makes that torque at a low RPM ( because otherwise it would have a higher HP rating, see? ), where most of us have the engine 95% of the time, so it feels more satisfying and immediate in normal driving. But it has little to do with ability to perform and hill climb.
high low-end torque and low hp is what diesel truckers have, which is why whenever you hit the grapevine out of the Central Valley in California(3000 foot elevation gain in about five or six miles), you are immediately besieged by trucks crawling up the grade at 10 mph. For all their 5000 ft-lb of torque, they do not have the power to haul that huge load up the grade at 60.
diesels and hybrids have the same pluses and minuses: high low-end torque (usually starting from 0 rpm for hybrids and 1000 rpm or so for diesels) and low top-end power (even the next-gen Jetta diesel, for instance, will have only 100 hp even though it has 220+ lb-ft at torque peak).
For round-town driving the high torque of a diesel is wonderful, but for going from 60-80 mph to pass on the highway, it is not quite. The same is true for hybrids.
I think the future is very bright for hybrids, with city models presented with diesel-electric powertrains and higher-power or sport models presented with gas-electric combos. At least until or unless the mythical fuel cell future presents itself.
As to the question of long highway ascents, I remember reading an article a year ago or more where they tested the Insight and the classic Prius over the Angeles Crest Highway and the pass on I-15 outside LA on an extended drive. Neither's battery pack was ever fully depleted and both were able to keep up with traffic, although neither had a lot of power to spare for passing. The new Prius and the HCH should do even better than that, being the next gen of each.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"you are immediately besieged by trucks crawling up the grade at 10 mph. For all their 5000 ft-lb of torque, they do not have the power to haul that huge load up the grade at 60."
But, let's not forget that they are hauling 50,000 to 80,000 lbs. I haven't had any problems crossing the Appalachians in W. VA/VA or the Blue Ridge in GA (granted these aren't at some of the heights that are on the W Coast). I also have no problem accelerating from 60-80mph or beyond.....it accelerates just like any other 4 cyl car, that has to do with gearing, not nessecarily HP. Let's face it, if I were after rocketing to 80mph etc, I would have bought an NSX. I was after a car that would provide me with a good driving experience, was comfortable to drive, acheived excellent gas mileage, and last "forever"..
I think that the Prius (and HCH) would have provided 3 out of the four. I traded a Corolla that wasn't all that comfortable to drive on long trips, the Prius and Corolla use the same seats, so how could the Prius be any more comfortable than the Corolla. Also, a Civic is a Civic, no matter the power plant, so it too, wouldn't have provided the comfort level of the VW. I also wasn't going to pay a premium ($3000 premium at that) just to get the Hybrid, and then wait for 6-9 months to take possession of the car. That was what led me to decide on the Jetta GLS TDI. Plus, I've had 2 other diesels (80 MB 300SD and 84 MB 300 CD) so dealing with diesel wasn't/isn't anything new to me. In fact, the TDI is so much quiter and cleaner than the Mercedes ever were (that is just the progression in technology though).
I think that what it is going to boil down to is the preference of the driver, But I don't think you could ever compare a 75,000+lb tractor/trailer to the VW diesels or hybrids. Just my $0.02....
"high low-end torque and low hp is what diesel truckers have"
And there is a perfect reason for that. High HP happens when the torque curve is broad, and exceed the 5252 rpm mark without tapering off sharply. Semi-engines are designed to haul stuff, with "just enough" horses. Without having HP at the wheels, you're not going anywhere.
Prius @ 0 rpm: 295 lb.-ft / 0 HP
Which means, the car ain't moving (no matter how hard you try). You've got to have some rpm to go with the torque, which means, you've got to have Horse Power!
For round-town driving the high torque of a diesel is wonderful, but for going from 60-80 mph to pass on the highway, it is not quite. The same is true for hybrids.
I find the exact opposite to be true in my real life 80,000 miles of TDI driving. Acceleration anywhere between 60-100 mph is prompt and requires no downshifting. Around town, I find there to be some dead areas in the power band. Jumps hard off the line, then dulls down a bit between 30-50mph. I'm also running a chip which makes a big difference. The powerband hasn't changed with the chip, it's just stonger in all aspects. I've driven a lot of different vehicles and the TDI feels very strong in real world driving. Don't get this confused with a performance car, but leaps and bounds ahead of anything I've driven that gets even close to the mpg. The only hybrid I have cockpit time in is the Civic which didn't do a thing for me. I've gathered that's not the standard though.
no offense, but I have driven the TDI, and your idea of "prompt" and mine may differ...to me this is a car that makes the base Mini Cooper and the Toyota Echo seem fast.
mlh: people have, notably Mercedes very recently. At least, in concept form.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Perhaps I don't remember my "pre-chip" days or perhaps the TDI you drove wasn't operating properly. I put highway/passing performance higher with this TDI than my Camry V6 it replaced. I sometimes get stuck driving my daughters Celica GTS (usually to the dealer, but that's another story...) and you have to drop 2-3 gears to have decent highway acceleration. By the time you've dropped the gears and found your way to the 6,000rpms you need for any type of acceleration, the TDI has made the pass without downshifting.
Coincidentally, Car and Driver puts a fully-charged '04 Prius dead-even with a Jetta TDI automatic for 0-60. From March '04.
Oh, the TDI does wake up after about 15-20k miles. Diesels take quite awhile to break-in. My mpg starting rising at around 10k miles and has peaked since around 20k. I put the chip on at about that time too.
when the Woods Dual Power was introduced. A hybrid gasoline/electric automobile which employed many of the principles of today's hybrids. I believe it involved patents dating to at least 1905. It has a 4cyl ICE which combined with electric drive could achieve a blistering 35mph. It could even manage 20mph on electric power alone.
I have a 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon with an automatic which is completely stock - no chip. It is amazing on the highway, it scoots from 70 to 100 with a tap of the gas and without downshifting - absolutely effortless at highway speeds and getting 40++ MPG while it's doing it.
It cruises very comfortably at 100. It's great from a standstill, excellent accelleration, has a bit of a flat spot from 30 to 50, anything above 60 and just a tickle of the gas pedal and you're looking at triple digits very quickly.
both the New Beetle and Jetta TDI, the Beetle just on a 10-mile test drive, and the Jetta more extensively, as I was considering getting one, and then later I had a friend with one.
If you look at 50-70 passing times for the VW diesels versus their similar-size gas counterparts, you will find the diesels fairly slow. But this is all skewed by the design choices VW made in producing these two cars. You could certainly make much larger faster diesel engines that would still compare favorably to hybrids for fuel economy and then would be quicker than them too, probably.
How do the VW diesels do on long highway grades? Is it easy to maintain 65 mph, or are they straining and gradually slowing down?
Hybrid diesels are the future for a large part of the market, I am sure, once the emissions problems are licked.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I was responding to [mlh #230] about diesel hybrids (which is still used today in trains and commercial ships, and military ships and submarines were diesel-electric before nuclear power came into usage in such senarios).
Although, your info on that hybrid gas-electric car is very interesting. I'll have to lookup more on it.
Hi Here in Northern Atlanta suburbia I don't see many diesel cars.
My father had an Isuzu in the 80's that was really noisy and hard to start in the Minnesota winters, and sometimes hard to find a fill up. Then years later, I noticed that if a car is seen billowing black toxic smoke that makes your eyes burn shut at 500 feet and the back is charred by smoke, 9 times out of 10 is is either a: 1. Mercedes diesel 2. VW diesel 3. Volvo
That's how I remember diesel cars, I suspect many others remember them that way. I wonder if the Europeans have such strict emission requirements as US? I know that diesel is the fuel of choice in the Philippines: Cars, trucks, jeepnies all run on diesel there. I can't stand Manila for covering my face to breathe.
Honestly I don't have any info about diesels other than that. Doesn't it sacrifice alot of power from the engine to clean that awful mess up? We all know that emission equipment on gas engines reduce the power some.
Another honest question: If a diesel looses most of it's power to pass while driving a higher speed, why couple an electric motor that has low end power? My first thought is it should be coupled on a gasoline engine for it's higher RPM power.
There is a bit of a learning curve on these cars. One thing you have to remember is red-lining is a waste of time/fuel. I never go above 4,000 rpms because the power just isn't there beyond that. You're much further ahead to jump up a gear than to rev out a lower one. Also, I've spent seat-time in automatic TDI's and flooring the pedal will rev the motor beyond it's powerband as well. I found it most responsive to let off the pedal around 4,000rpms and let it upshift. When passing, the tranny will also downshift too far if you give it full-throttle. If you were to punch it at 50mph, it will downshift from 4th gear to 2nd gear and essentially rev beyond the power band. You have to learn the speeds and how to get the auto tranny to do what you want. 1/2 throttle 1-gear downshifts are better as you keep the motor right in it's power band for maximum acceleration.
I learned this the hard way when I drove an auto TDI for a few weeks. I was driving a two-lane twisty road for a 20 mile commute and regularly had very short areas I could pass. The first time I went to pass someone (started at around 50mph) I pegged the pedal and hit the lane and the car basically did nothing. Just rev'd the motor and inched along. Next spot, I finessed the pedal for a 1-gear downshift and it shot off with me getting further into the pedal after it downshifted. This kept it from downshifting too far, but gave it lots of fuel. It will sling around someone quite quickly that way. Takes some getting used to, these are definetely drivers cars and not just push pedal and turn wheel:) I'm used to driving much more powerful vehicles (commuted in V6 Camrys, also currently own a V8 Audi) and the TDI simply feels terrific in my day to day driving style.
How do the VW diesels do on long highway grades? Is it easy to maintain 65 mph, or are they straining and gradually slowing down?
It would certainly have to be a long/steep hill and likely a full load of passengers/gear to slow me down. I've crossed all over WV, PA, VA mountains and this car doesn't even require much throttle in 5th gear to pull these types of "mountains". I've not had the car in the rockies, but I highly doubt you'd slow down. A turbocharged diesel is much less suseptible to elevation changes like a gasser. Although I can't honestly answer the question about 65mph as that's a bit lower than my typical cruising speed;)
You've definetely got an old perspective of diesels. They're really nothing like that anymore. You typically won't see any smoke from my '00 Jetta TDI and it's old technology compared to some of the newest diesels hitting the streets. If I get some bad fuel somewhere, I've seen smoke under full-throttle runs, but I also have performance mods to increase fueling. It also puffs a little white smoke on the first start, depending upon where I buy my fuel. Good BP Diesel will never smoke.
On my '03 Dodge Cummins, I have never seen smoke. Even with a 15,000# trailer, pulling a hill in 6th gear with the pedal to the floor (was TRYING to see if it would smoke!). Fuel quality is the biggest killer here for diesels. With the high sulphur content it's hard to clean the emissions. Hopefully when the ultra-low sulphur diesel arrives in a couple years, things will improve even more. I can essentially run my diesels on waste vegetable oil and the emissions drops substantially. About 30-40% reduction in particulates and smog-forming emissions, just from the type of fuel I'm using. It's already leaps and bounds better than most gassers in terms of greenhouse gasses.
A lot of what is making diesels better is just plain technology. The Cummins diesel Dodge is using for their 2004.5 models increased performance substantially over my 2003 model, lowered emissions, and made it even quieter.
Anyone that doesn't believe that diesel technology can be as good or even better than a gasser should go drive the new Mercedes E320 diesel. It's quieter, faster, and drinks much less fuel than the gasser version. Not much more expensive, either.
I think the diesel/hybrid is the absolute best answer, but it's probably too scarey of a jump for most folks. I suppose most folks probably still think of diesels like misterme. The hybrid would make the diesel even better IMHO. I would certainly consider one, where I'm not overly impressed with the gas-electrics so far.
I lived in Germany for five years and in my experience, diesels were the engine of choice for the average driver. I remember seeing statistics that as many as 40% of new vehicles in some categories were diesel powered.
I had a chance to drive several VW/Audi TDi's and even a diesel powered Chrysler minivan (wonder how that would do here). One of the best cars I experienced both for around town drivability and long distance high speed touring was a BMW 530d wagon that I spent a month with. Smooth, quiet and it provided effortless acceleration at any speed.
We can only hope that the renewed interest in diesel as a choice in the USA will encourage automakers to make available a wider range of engines they sell in the rest of the world available to the American market.
Hi It's too bad that the people of poorer nations are stuck with the old nasty diesels and can't do anything about it, always recycling and fixing what they already have...but that discussion is for somewhere else.
Personally, I'd rather wait (maybe years'n years) for a fuel cell exchange system than going back to diesel cars. Old habits & ideas die hard !! Thanks, Steve
I agree with Sebring - in my first hand experience flooring a diesel is a waste of time. I get it in the highest gear as quickly as possible and never floor it. Diesels don't care for high RPM's - actually they only have about a 4,500 RPM redline so the term "high RPM" in a diesel is relative.
It feels like a torquey V6 or V8 when you give it a little pedal to pass at highway speeds, it really moves and I'm not imagining it. I also have an X5, the TDI easily keeps up with it on the highway.
"As for this gem, "Can Diesel engine adjust torque/horsepower ratio on-the-fly?" Uh, all cars can do that, 'cause they have this magic box interposed betwixt the engine and driving wheels. It's called a "transmission."
You are right. Lower gear provides more torque at the wheel but less horsepower and vice versa. You have only 4 to 6 preset gear ratio with delays between shifting into different gears. I would not consider it on-the-fly since I have not seen any Diesel car offered with a CVT transmission.
"And what tests show that torque is what is needed to get you up a hill, not HP? What tests show the battery power will increase when engine power is exceeded?"
Read my post again. I said during climbing hills, torque is more desire(not need) than horsepower because you are do not want to go fast anyway. You can actually do the test if you have a car. When you accelerate from at rest, you would with the first gear instead of 5th gear. When you need to pass or climb hill, you would downshift to provide more torque at the wheel at the expense of horsepower.
For battery power draining, we were talking about different load requirement on the engine. I was referring to climbing a hill which requires less than 75hp. In which case, the extra 1+hp can be used to recharge the battery. HSD does not defies the laws of physics, miscommunication does.
"For round-town driving the high torque of a diesel is wonderful, but for going from 60-80 mph to pass on the highway, it is not quite. The same is true for hybrids."
What makes you believe that hybrids are slow for passing at 60-80 mph?
"I'm just trying to picture one making the climb up to the Eisenhower tunnel on I70 west of Denver. 6000 feet of altitude gain between Denver and the tunnel, putting you at 11,000 ft. above sea level. In a normally aspirated engine, you lose about 3% of your rated power for each 1000 ft of altitude above sea level. Means the Prius's 76 HP gas engine starts the climb at 65 or so, and is lucky to be making 50 HP at the tunnel entrance. In a 2900 lb. car. Think the batteries'll last all the way up?"
Batteries will last depending on how fast you want to go up. If it is a 10% incline, Prius should be able to climb at about 60mph and able to maintain battery SOC. If you want to go up at 30mph, Prius has more than sufficient power to drive up and even charge the battery. In high load situation like this is ideal for recharging battery because the engine is more efficient in this state.
On 10% incline, if you travel at over 60mph, you'll start using up the battery. Prius with EV button can go 2-4 miles(maybe more) in pure electricity. If you floor it at the 10% incline, the battery won't completely drain if the incline or hill is less than 4 miles long. How often do you see a 10% incline hill that is more than 4 miles long anyway?
Current hybrids. I run up and down a fairly steep mountain road almost every day. If I happen to go the back way rather than the front I come to a two lane road with three passing lanes. Chasing a Turbo diesel up such a road is quite interesting. If he has a manual and can drop the hammer it is a drag race as we come out of the last turn just before the passing lane, any one of the three before I get to my turn off. I have a gas powered PT, a Focus ZTS. Getting passed a turbo diesel that has hit its stroke can be difficult but dropping a hybrid is a piece of cake. Why do we pass you might ask? There seems to be some law that says that even though people know they are holding up other on a mountain road they have to try and stay ahead of everyone once they reach a passing lane. I don't know why because they slow down as soon as it narrows back into two lanes. Plus on long grades like the one going into Mamouth it seems as if the turbo diesels hold their speed quite well. Even the big MB seem to haul going up those long passes.
By the way passing lane drag races aren't limited to Diesels and Hybrids. People in big old Caddy's and Crown Vic's are just as bad. They go pretty slow in the twisty stuff but hit warp drive when a straight passing lane opens up.
"You have only 4 to 6 preset gear ratio with delays between shifting into different gears. I would not consider it on-the-fly since I have not seen any Diesel car offered with a CVT transmission."
If the end result is sufficent power to climb the grade in question at the required speed, why should anyone care if the number of different gear ratios is 4, 6, infinite or even 1?
And that "delays between shifting" is simply ridiculous.
"Lower gear provides more torque at the wheel but less horsepower"
Lower gear selection at certain speed will provide higher horsepower. Drive at 30 mph in third gear, and then move to first at the same speed. The revs will jump up (more power, but not necessarily more torque), but you get more thrust at that speed in lower gear.
Comments
1.0 liter version accelerates from 0-60mph in 35 seconds! That might be acceptable in Europe but not definately here.
Dennis
Dennis
That is only one of the concept. Hybrids can recapture energy back from the moving engine pistons as well. Hybrid Synergy Drive can split power from ICE and convert it to high torque electric power on-the-fly during slow speed or climbing hill conditions. Many Prius owners say their battery almost never run out.
Dennis
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Dennis
Prius probably would. I don't know about HCH. Hybrid Synergy Drive defies conventional thinking. When you reach to the top of the hill, Prius battery would be full, not empty. Prius has two electric motors/generators. HSD can generate electricity and provide power to electric motor at the same time. HSD will route excess horsepower from the engine and convert it into electricity. This dynamic adjustment in drivetrain provides high torque in conditions like climbing hills when high torque is desire. 50 kilowatts electric motor is capable of producing 295 lbs-ft torque.
Check out this Prius review.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/04/21/MN- - - - - - - GC468FFU1.DTL
"His test for a car is whether it can carry four adults from a standing start up steep Marin Avenue in Berkeley to reach 25 mph. How fast did he get it going? "Twenty-five, of course, is the speed limit. I wouldn't go over that."
Dennis
They may defy some modes of thinking, but not the laws of physics. It takes 'x' amount of power to move a 'y'lb car up 'z' feet in 1 second. This is the way power is *defined*. If you're expending more power climbing than the gas engine is producing, you will discharge the batteries.
Since the HCH has ( 9 ) more horsepower from its gas motor than the pirus, it would likely do better on this particular test.
Dennis
The beauty of HSD is that it can dynamically transform the drivetrain as needed.
Dennis
Sounds like Toyota figured out how to defy the laws of physics.
Of course if you took out all of the hybrid parts and brought the weight down a couple hundred lbs, then the car would need less assisting in the first place.
Diesels have high torque all the time, not just when the batteries are fully charged.
Nope. If the hill is steep enough so that more power is required than Prius ICE can produce, battery will eventually run out. The concept of HSD is to transform the drivetrain to driving conditions and use available power in it's most efficient form. In this case, more torque and less horsepower. Therefore, avoiding inefficient situations.
"Of course if you took out all of the hybrid parts and brought the weight down a couple hundred lbs, then the car would need less assisting in the first place."
Well, read usbseawolf2000 "Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?" Apr 27, 2004 4:53pm. HSD's weight is comparable to the traditional car.
"Diesels have high torque all the time, not just when the batteries are fully charged."
Since HSD can recharge battery on demand, the battery will almost never run out. Do you need high torque all the time? Do you need more horsepower other times? Can Diesel engine adjust torque/horsepower ratio on-the-fly? HSD can!
Dennis
Uh, no. Horsepower is power, the ability to do work, such as moving something up a hill.
"HP is a function of HP and RPM."
Actually, it's a function of torque and distance. Torque by itself won't do anything.
"When climbing hill, you would not want engine to accelerate in RPM."
That doesn't even parse as a sentence. An engine doesn't accelerate, and it doesn't do thing "in RPM."
Instead of just reciting what you glean from the toyota press release, why not read something about engines and/or physics?
And that is a wrong point. In the end, you NEED sufficient HP to keep moving.
Would a car have more trouble keeping up speed going 60 mph with 1000 lb.-ft at 1 rpm, or at the same speed with 50 HP at some rpm? I'm going to pick the latter. Wouldn't you?
If you wouldn't, imagine the gear ratio you would need to translate 1 rpm from the engine to 60 mph at the wheels.
As for this gem, "Can Diesel engine adjust torque/horsepower ratio on-the-fly?" Uh, all cars can do that, 'cause they have this magic box interposed betwixt the engine and driving wheels. It's called a "transmission."
Much as I like the Prius, I'm just trying to picture one making the climb up to the Eisenhower tunnel on I70 west of Denver. 6000 feet of altitude gain between Denver and the tunnel, putting you at 11,000 ft. above sea level. In a normally aspirated engine, you lose about 3% of your rated power for each 1000 ft of altitude above sea level. Means the Prius's 76 HP gas engine starts the climb at 65 or so, and is lucky to be making 50 HP at the tunnel entrance. In a 2900 lb. car. Think the batteries'll last all the way up?
I said that? LOL. It is a typo. I meant, HP is a function of torque and RPM. I am totally out of it after amount of posting today. If you think I recite from Toyota's press release, read more of my posts. I provided graphs and charts from independent tests. If this is the first time you read my message, I am sorry because I will not have a second chance to make a good first impression.
I will post more in details with explanation tomorrow. Have a nice day!
Dennis
Repeat after me. "It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of *gearing*." :-)"
Hopefully this will settle the debate on HP and Torque and we can get into the gearing debate....
http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html
Without one, the other doesn't exist....etc, etc. etc, I'll take my 100HP and FLAT Torque curve of 177ft/lbs any day. 100HP isn't alot for a car with a curb weight of 3000lbs, but it gets out into traffic just as quickly and easily as my 98 Corolla with 120HP, 122ft/lbs and a curb weight of 2426lbs. AND it'll do 105mph with no problems what-so-ever (do you really NEED to go faster than 80mph while driving on public streets though?)
As for the Hybrids, dunno, never drove one as the dealers could never get them onto the lots in sufficient time.
That's where i got the idea.
"I provided graphs and charts from independent tests."
And what tests show that torque is what is needed to get you up a hill, not HP? What tests show the battery power will increase when engine power is exceeded?
A lot of the confusion with "torque" and "hp" is simply due to people's use of RPM. An engine that has more torque than HP typically makes that torque at a low RPM ( because otherwise it would have a higher HP rating, see? ), where most of us have the engine 95% of the time, so it feels more satisfying and immediate in normal driving. But it has little to do with ability to perform and hill climb.
dave
diesels and hybrids have the same pluses and minuses: high low-end torque (usually starting from 0 rpm for hybrids and 1000 rpm or so for diesels) and low top-end power (even the next-gen Jetta diesel, for instance, will have only 100 hp even though it has 220+ lb-ft at torque peak).
For round-town driving the high torque of a diesel is wonderful, but for going from 60-80 mph to pass on the highway, it is not quite. The same is true for hybrids.
I think the future is very bright for hybrids, with city models presented with diesel-electric powertrains and higher-power or sport models presented with gas-electric combos. At least until or unless the mythical fuel cell future presents itself.
As to the question of long highway ascents, I remember reading an article a year ago or more where they tested the Insight and the classic Prius over the Angeles Crest Highway and the pass on I-15 outside LA on an extended drive. Neither's battery pack was ever fully depleted and both were able to keep up with traffic, although neither had a lot of power to spare for passing. The new Prius and the HCH should do even better than that, being the next gen of each.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But, let's not forget that they are hauling 50,000 to 80,000 lbs. I haven't had any problems crossing the Appalachians in W. VA/VA or the Blue Ridge in GA (granted these aren't at some of the heights that are on the W Coast). I also have no problem accelerating from 60-80mph or beyond.....it accelerates just like any other 4 cyl car, that has to do with gearing, not nessecarily HP. Let's face it, if I were after rocketing to 80mph etc, I would have bought an NSX. I was after a car that would provide me with a good driving experience, was comfortable to drive, acheived excellent gas mileage, and last "forever"..
I think that the Prius (and HCH) would have provided 3 out of the four. I traded a Corolla that wasn't all that comfortable to drive on long trips, the Prius and Corolla use the same seats, so how could the Prius be any more comfortable than the Corolla. Also, a Civic is a Civic, no matter the power plant, so it too, wouldn't have provided the comfort level of the VW. I also wasn't going to pay a premium ($3000 premium at that) just to get the Hybrid, and then wait for 6-9 months to take possession of the car. That was what led me to decide on the Jetta GLS TDI. Plus, I've had 2 other diesels (80 MB 300SD and 84 MB 300 CD) so dealing with diesel wasn't/isn't anything new to me. In fact, the TDI is so much quiter and cleaner than the Mercedes ever were (that is just the progression in technology though).
I think that what it is going to boil down to is the preference of the driver, But I don't think you could ever compare a 75,000+lb tractor/trailer to the VW diesels or hybrids. Just my $0.02....
And there is a perfect reason for that. High HP happens when the torque curve is broad, and exceed the 5252 rpm mark without tapering off sharply. Semi-engines are designed to haul stuff, with "just enough" horses. Without having HP at the wheels, you're not going anywhere.
Prius @ 0 rpm: 295 lb.-ft / 0 HP
Which means, the car ain't moving (no matter how hard you try). You've got to have some rpm to go with the torque, which means, you've got to have Horse Power!
I find the exact opposite to be true in my real life 80,000 miles of TDI driving. Acceleration anywhere between 60-100 mph is prompt and requires no downshifting. Around town, I find there to be some dead areas in the power band. Jumps hard off the line, then dulls down a bit between 30-50mph. I'm also running a chip which makes a big difference. The powerband hasn't changed with the chip, it's just stonger in all aspects. I've driven a lot of different vehicles and the TDI feels very strong in real world driving. Don't get this confused with a performance car, but leaps and bounds ahead of anything I've driven that gets even close to the mpg. The only hybrid I have cockpit time in is the Civic which didn't do a thing for me. I've gathered that's not the standard though.
mlh: people have, notably Mercedes very recently. At least, in concept form.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Coincidentally, Car and Driver puts a fully-charged '04 Prius dead-even with a Jetta TDI automatic for 0-60. From March '04.
Oh, the TDI does wake up after about 15-20k miles. Diesels take quite awhile to break-in. My mpg starting rising at around 10k miles and has peaked since around 20k. I put the chip on at about that time too.
It cruises very comfortably at 100. It's great from a standstill, excellent accelleration, has a bit of a flat spot from 30 to 50, anything above 60 and just a tickle of the gas pedal and you're looking at triple digits very quickly.
If you look at 50-70 passing times for the VW diesels versus their similar-size gas counterparts, you will find the diesels fairly slow. But this is all skewed by the design choices VW made in producing these two cars. You could certainly make much larger faster diesel engines that would still compare favorably to hybrids for fuel economy and then would be quicker than them too, probably.
How do the VW diesels do on long highway grades? Is it easy to maintain 65 mph, or are they straining and gradually slowing down?
Hybrid diesels are the future for a large part of the market, I am sure, once the emissions problems are licked.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Although, your info on that hybrid gas-electric car is very interesting. I'll have to lookup more on it.
I'd like smaller and more efficient--not to mention cheaper.
Here in Northern Atlanta suburbia I don't see many diesel cars.
My father had an Isuzu in the 80's that was really noisy and hard to start in the Minnesota winters,
and sometimes hard to find a fill up.
Then years later,
I noticed that if a car is seen billowing black toxic smoke that makes your eyes burn shut at 500 feet and the back is charred by smoke,
9 times out of 10 is is either a:
1. Mercedes diesel
2. VW diesel
3. Volvo
That's how I remember diesel cars, I suspect many others remember them that way.
I wonder if the Europeans have such strict emission requirements as US?
I know that diesel is the fuel of choice in the Philippines:
Cars, trucks, jeepnies all run on diesel there.
I can't stand Manila for covering my face to breathe.
Honestly I don't have any info about diesels other than that. Doesn't it sacrifice alot of power from the engine to clean that awful mess up?
We all know that emission equipment on gas engines reduce the power some.
Another honest question:
If a diesel looses most of it's power to pass while driving a higher speed, why couple an electric motor that has low end power?
My first thought is it should be coupled on a gasoline engine for it's higher RPM power.
Thanks
Steve
I learned this the hard way when I drove an auto TDI for a few weeks. I was driving a two-lane twisty road for a 20 mile commute and regularly had very short areas I could pass. The first time I went to pass someone (started at around 50mph) I pegged the pedal and hit the lane and the car basically did nothing. Just rev'd the motor and inched along. Next spot, I finessed the pedal for a 1-gear downshift and it shot off with me getting further into the pedal after it downshifted. This kept it from downshifting too far, but gave it lots of fuel. It will sling around someone quite quickly that way. Takes some getting used to, these are definetely drivers cars and not just push pedal and turn wheel:) I'm used to driving much more powerful vehicles (commuted in V6 Camrys, also currently own a V8 Audi) and the TDI simply feels terrific in my day to day driving style.
How do the VW diesels do on long highway grades? Is it easy to maintain 65 mph, or are they straining and gradually slowing down?
It would certainly have to be a long/steep hill and likely a full load of passengers/gear to slow me down. I've crossed all over WV, PA, VA mountains and this car doesn't even require much throttle in 5th gear to pull these types of "mountains". I've not had the car in the rockies, but I highly doubt you'd slow down. A turbocharged diesel is much less suseptible to elevation changes like a gasser. Although I can't honestly answer the question about 65mph as that's a bit lower than my typical cruising speed;)
On my '03 Dodge Cummins, I have never seen smoke. Even with a 15,000# trailer, pulling a hill in 6th gear with the pedal to the floor (was TRYING to see if it would smoke!). Fuel quality is the biggest killer here for diesels. With the high sulphur content it's hard to clean the emissions. Hopefully when the ultra-low sulphur diesel arrives in a couple years, things will improve even more. I can essentially run my diesels on waste vegetable oil and the emissions drops substantially. About 30-40% reduction in particulates and smog-forming emissions, just from the type of fuel I'm using. It's already leaps and bounds better than most gassers in terms of greenhouse gasses.
A lot of what is making diesels better is just plain technology. The Cummins diesel Dodge is using for their 2004.5 models increased performance substantially over my 2003 model, lowered emissions, and made it even quieter.
Anyone that doesn't believe that diesel technology can be as good or even better than a gasser should go drive the new Mercedes E320 diesel. It's quieter, faster, and drinks much less fuel than the gasser version. Not much more expensive, either.
I think the diesel/hybrid is the absolute best answer, but it's probably too scarey of a jump for most folks. I suppose most folks probably still think of diesels like misterme. The hybrid would make the diesel even better IMHO. I would certainly consider one, where I'm not overly impressed with the gas-electrics so far.
I had a chance to drive several VW/Audi TDi's and even a diesel powered Chrysler minivan (wonder how that would do here). One of the best cars I experienced both for around town drivability and long distance high speed touring was a BMW 530d wagon that I spent a month with. Smooth, quiet and it provided effortless acceleration at any speed.
We can only hope that the renewed interest in diesel as a choice in the USA will encourage automakers to make available a wider range of engines they sell in the rest of the world available to the American market.
It's too bad that the people of poorer nations are stuck with the old nasty diesels and can't do anything about it, always recycling and fixing what they already have...but that discussion is for somewhere else.
Personally,
I'd rather wait (maybe years'n years) for a fuel cell exchange system than going back to diesel cars. Old habits & ideas die hard !!
Thanks,
Steve
Old Rabbits die hard too!
Hee hee.
:-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It feels like a torquey V6 or V8 when you give it a little pedal to pass at highway speeds, it really moves and I'm not imagining it. I also have an X5, the TDI easily keeps up with it on the highway.
You are right. Lower gear provides more torque at the wheel but less horsepower and vice versa. You have only 4 to 6 preset gear ratio with delays between shifting into different gears. I would not consider it on-the-fly since I have not seen any Diesel car offered with a CVT transmission.
Dennis
Only if the engine is revving slower. Not the point of dropping a gear.
dave
Read my post again. I said during climbing hills, torque is more desire(not need) than horsepower because you are do not want to go fast anyway. You can actually do the test if you have a car. When you accelerate from at rest, you would with the first gear instead of 5th gear. When you need to pass or climb hill, you would downshift to provide more torque at the wheel at the expense of horsepower.
For battery power draining, we were talking about different load requirement on the engine. I was referring to climbing a hill which requires less than 75hp. In which case, the extra 1+hp can be used to recharge the battery. HSD does not defies the laws of physics, miscommunication does.
Dennis
What makes you believe that hybrids are slow for passing at 60-80 mph?
Dennis
Batteries will last depending on how fast you want to go up. If it is a 10% incline, Prius should be able to climb at about 60mph and able to maintain battery SOC. If you want to go up at 30mph, Prius has more than sufficient power to drive up and even charge the battery. In high load situation like this is ideal for recharging battery because the engine is more efficient in this state.
On 10% incline, if you travel at over 60mph, you'll start using up the battery. Prius with EV button can go 2-4 miles(maybe more) in pure electricity. If you floor it at the 10% incline, the battery won't completely drain if the incline or hill is less than 4 miles long. How often do you see a 10% incline hill that is more than 4 miles long anyway?
Dennis
By the way passing lane drag races aren't limited to Diesels and Hybrids. People in big old Caddy's and Crown Vic's are just as bad. They go pretty slow in the twisty stuff but hit warp drive when a straight passing lane opens up.
If the end result is sufficent power to climb the grade in question at the required speed, why should anyone care if the number of different gear ratios is 4, 6, infinite or even 1?
And that "delays between shifting" is simply ridiculous.
Lower gear selection at certain speed will provide higher horsepower. Drive at 30 mph in third gear, and then move to first at the same speed. The revs will jump up (more power, but not necessarily more torque), but you get more thrust at that speed in lower gear.