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Toyota Sienna 2004+

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Comments

  • acedriveracedriver Posts: 131
    Who needs an inkjet printer at home when you have such nice laser printers at work ?? Oops! I mean .. Hope nobody heard that :-)

    >>> "At ~$7 for a 24 pack, my Diet Coke habit runs me ~$75 a year"

    Now, only if we could buy gasoline in bulk .. Wot say that we go buy an oil-well in the 51st state of USA - before Exxon joins in the loot ?? (Didn't they just post a billion$ profit this quarter ?)
  • acedriveracedriver Posts: 131
    Maybe, we can buy a nice bicycle and save the $25,000+ which we would spend for a van ??!! :-)

    >>>This is USA, country where each person have right to make his own personal decision>>>

    Yeah, man! And before Steve_HOST decides to eject out moi for posting off topic messages, I think I will go lurk in some other forum.

    And, while the 04 Sienna did manage to put all the neat features into a single MV, I am pretty sure that other MVs will catch up in their next redesign. Maybe it's time for a "Driver's Minivan" ??
  • jd_ottawajd_ottawa Posts: 20
    I have a new XLE AWD and just finished my first tank of regular.

    I filled up with Premium (cost = $12 Cdn more per tank) and so far I don't really feel much of a difference in performance. I am sure there is some, but it's not that noticable.

    I am curious how many kilometers I get out of the tank on Premium. If I get better mileage, then maybe that will offset the extra $$. If no big change, I am going back to regular for sure.
  • george96george96 Posts: 11
    Does the LE Stereo (JBL Sound System) have speakers that take up any space in the rear cargo area?
  • dniswongerdniswonger Posts: 2
    Can anyone tell me how to get the DVD audio to play through the main speakers in the 2004 Sienna XLE? Currently the only way to hear the DVD seems to be through the use of the headsets.
  • jctobinjctobin Posts: 25
    Without the JBL there is a recessed storage bin on the left side of the cargo area. The JBL uses this space for the subwoofer, so you do lose this bin. The speaker doesn't intrude into the cargo area, however.
  • broncoguybroncoguy Posts: 39
    To tell you the truth, I have no idea how to do it, but I do know it can be done. I was just in an XLE LTD on Saturday checking out the DVD option and I asked the sales guy to put the sound through the entire vehicle. He really had no clue what he was doing as he checked a few different buttons, but eventually it worked and it sounded fantastic.

    Enjoy the vehicle!
  • tghowtghow Posts: 1
    After you insert the DVD and the movie starts to play, press "disc" on the front panel (the controls for the JBL stereo system). If you have a cd loaded, it will start playing-press "disc" again, and "AUX" will appear in the display, and the movie sound will now play through the main speakers.

    I have noticed that you have to turn the sound up quite a bit louder for movies than for music.
    But the surround sound is awesome, and the picture on the LCD screen is top notch. Enjoy
  • dniswongerdniswonger Posts: 2
    Thank you tjhow and broncoguy for your responses. I check it out tonight if my wife ever lets me drive the car again. The dealer thought that it couldn't be done.
  • dakdikmendakdikmen Posts: 6
    Don't forget that the Sienna gets better mpg.
    19/27 versus the Ody 18/25. So it is almost the same price in my area for highway driving.

    $1.56 vs $1.67 about 7% more
    25mpg vs 27mpg about 8% more mileage.

    The driver makes more a difference than both of these combined (Jack-rabbit starts, speeding, long idles at the fast food drive up, etc.) in overall mpg.
  • ficklefickle Posts: 98
    My friend has a Nissan Quest and told me that she can no longer drive her ailing parents in it since they cannot get into the van. Is the new Sienna also a "step up" or is it lower like the Honda Odyssey?
  • kgnw1kgnw1 Posts: 94
    The Sienna is available with Running Boards. It is also available in a Rampvan version:

    http://www.ims-vans.com/sienna.asp
  • shuedshued Posts: 107
    I know that Honda Ody has time-belt and Nissan
    Quest has timing chain. Could some one help to
    tell me what Toyota Sienna is used - Timing chain
    or timing belt in its engine?
  • ficklefickle Posts: 98
    The rampvan looks great! Even though I don't need it now, it's great to know I could convert it someday if needed. Thanks!
  • deepandeepan Posts: 342
    I dont think a regular van can be "converted" to a ramp van. IIRC there is no 3rd row seat on a ramp van. If the 04 is anything like the old one its sits a bit higher than the odyssey. I think the clearance is around 6.9"
  • ficklefickle Posts: 98
    Oh, I get it now. I'm glad you mentioned that because I would have thought it was an "aftermarket" add on. Hmmm, now I'll have to take my parents to the showroom and see how easy/hard it is for them to get in and out.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    new issue of Car and Driver for the most complete review of the Sienna that I have seen as yet. They were really REALLY impressed.

    ~alpha
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    That the C&D review in the mag is a bit more comprehensive than the one on their web page then?

    Car & Driver

    Steve, Host
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    the review I am talking about is an actual road test, in the June issue. It is not yet available on the website. Probably wont be available on the website until mid/end of May.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,941
    for the complete review! I'm sure what alpha meant was that, except for the review by Edmunds.com, the C/D review was the most complete he's seen, right alpha? ;-)

    The C/D review (mag) did have lots of nice photos, though.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    I actually thought the 2 page review on their site was good, just figured there was more in the mag from the glowing report that Alpha gave. Next time I'm at the library I'll try to remember to look it up.

    Steve, Host
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I'm sorry buddy, but edmunds.com doesnt do it for me. This is an awesome resource for pricing and purchasing info, and certainly I'm enamored of the TownHall. But their reviews... eh. In their Sienna review, there were several pieces of information that were incorrect. In considering what the auto world has to say, I'd consider Car and Driver the most objective authority. Each of their editors are craftsmen among a glut of ordinary auto writers, AND possess incredible knowledge as engineers. If I want reliability info, I look to CR and JD Power Long Term dependability studies. But pricing and discussion- Right Here Baby!

    Seriously, it costs nothing to go to the newstand and read a 4 page article. You know you want to.

    Just me.

    ~alpha
  • nwngnwng Posts: 663
    I don't know if this was covered before. Can anyone here who owns a 04 sienna w/o the power sliders tell me how heavy are the doors? Say compare to the previous gen?

    thanks
  • rj28462rj28462 Posts: 2
    DVD sound through main stereo:
    Once a DVD is playing, you can use the mode button on the steering wheel to select that as the sound input for the main system. Works great.

    Speaker in the rear:
    The subwoofer in the rear is an option that comes with the upgraded 10 speaker stereo system. Doesn't come with the standard 6 speaker system.
  • danjaecksdanjaecks Posts: 54
    There were reports a while back (by lekn I think) that the Sienna uses a full time AWD system with a 50/50 torque split in normal ops, open center differential etc.. A salesman I talked to claimed the system was forward biased and only transferred power to the rear wheels when it detected slip. (No he wasn't a Honda salesman, he's sold Toyotas since 1986, he said.)
    I haven't been able to find any info on the Toyota website about this.
    Does anyone have a Toyota reference about the AWD system on the Sienna (or RX330)?
    Is there a center differential, a clutch pack, or viscous coupling?
    Lekn- where did you get your info from?
    Thanks,
    Dan Jaecks
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    I was told that the 04 Sienna has the very same AWD system as the new RX330. The 330 has three open differentials therefore would NORMALLY (assuming equal traction coefficient for all four) have a 25/25/25/25 torque distribution all around.

    EXCEPT the 330, and apparently the Sienna, use differing final drive ratios front and rear to bias the torque to the front.

    Assuming the differing F/R ratios are in the same "range" as the "old" RX300 at the first instant of slippage the torque distribution will be about 90/10 F/R.

    Both the RX330 and the Sienna, like the ML first and more recently the Sequoia, use brake modulation to apportion engine torque under adverse traction conditions. Using the ABS wheel speed sensors to detect wheel(s) slippage, the system will apply moderate, modulated, braking to a slipping wheel(s).

    The shortcoming to all of this is the low duty cycle capability of the ABS pump/motor. In my 01 RX300 its VSC/Trac functionality lasted less than a minute. The Lexus mechanic/technician told me that there was a "firmware" time-out to prevent the ABS pump/motor from being over-taxed and over-heating.

    I would have expected that with the ABS pump/motor now having taken over the additional responsibility of AWD torque apportioning its capability would have been upgraded. But I recently saw a post about the Sequoia that indicated the system "bailed" after about 30 to 45 seconds of continuous AWD apportioning requirement.

    The Sequoia has a "backup" 4WD system, the RX330 and the Sienna do not.
  • danjaecksdanjaecks Posts: 54
    OK, that's very interesting. I'm trying to get a reference to an official Toyota source for this info, e.g. their web site or owners manual etc.
    In particular I'm interested in your statement of a 90/10 split in front to rear torque, which seems contrary to reports that the Sienna has an open center differential. I mean you'd have to have like a 27/1 final drive ratio on the front and a 3/1 on the rear. I suppose it could be done but it would need a huge ring gear and I've never heard of a car with ratios anywhere near that. Cars that I have heard of with 90/10 splits (like the Honda CR-V, for instance) have gotten it with clutch packs that engage after slipping has been detected. I believe this is described in the CR-V brochure, but I can't find any description in Toyota literature about HOW their AWD works in the Sienna.
    Thanks, anybody?
  • dakdikmendakdikmen Posts: 6
    The Sienna has a "reactive" AWD system. It's got 3 open diffs and 4 wheel traction control. The torque split doesn't matter. For open diffs, the torque split only apply when there is NO slip at a wheel. Once slip occures, the (100%) torque will go to the slipping wheel!

    To gain traction, the break pulses, this makes it theoretically impossible to calculate or measure the torque split during adverse conditions.

    This is all in purpose, the advantages are as follows:
    1: Simple open diffs are much lighter, smaller, and
    reliable than locking diffs /clutch plates, etc.
    2: When driving in adverse conditions and one goes too fast, the car will "buck" and slow down. Telling the person they are driving to fast!
    Or maybe they need to put on some snow tires!

    Disadvantage, if you are trying to drive "at the limit", spinning all your tires like a mad person... you will break this car. Go get something with a "proactive" AWD system!

    I like the new WRC STi, its got a dial to change the torque split from front to rear! (not for kids on board!)
  • leknlekn Posts: 78
    danjaecks, here are the references:
    For Sienna, this is a photo of an official information booklet for Toyota reps during an autoshow:

    Sienna specs

    It described the AWD, stating that no viscous coupling and limited slip differential is used. Though the term "open differential" is not used, this is quite clear, and is confirmed by various car reviews.

    And this is for RX330:

    Lexus Canada Web Site RX330 highlights

    Both clearly stated 50:50 torque split under normal driving.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    that like the RX300, the RX330 and the Sienna have a rear final drive ratio of 2.92 and a front FDR of 3.29. Just "cruising" along with a center open differential and equal traction all around, while the rear wheels "want" to turn faster than the front, the center open differential "takes up the slack" and all tires deliver the same level of torque to the high traction roadbed.

    But now put the "pedal to the metal", go WOT. You have just increased the tire/roadbed "slip" rate and this is one of the two circumstances when the differing final drive ratios come into play. The front wheels are operating with a greater gear reduction in relation to engine RPM so they will instantly receive the clear majority of the engine torque. And of course that will serve to exacerbate, severely, the level of torque steer you now encounter.

    And now guess which tires are most likely to "slip" on a slightly wet surface with so much forward torque bias. Suppose you happen to be making a right turn at the same time?

    The AWD brake/torque apportioning system cannot react to the front tire slippage without even further exacerbating your problem. Brake apportioning AWD system CANNOT work at the front wheels for the very same reason you NEVER see a front LSD on anything but a really serious off-road vehicle.

    Now you suddenly have an extraordinary level of front torque biasing and your AWD system cannot intervene if one front wheel begins to slip!

    That's just one of the reasons why REAL AWD/4WD systems always have RWD torque biasing.

    FWD, and front torque biased AWD vehicles should be banned from any road north of the snow line!

    Oh, and by the way, ALL systems that use brake torque apportioning will be VERY quick to dethrottle the engine the INSTANT any wheel slips.
  • leknlekn Posts: 78
    I thought we were through these... But would you stop repeating your "theory" and false information based purely on your assumptions and your imaginations?? If there is any truth to your "theory", can you please quote some references? Many users come here for information, the last thing they need is false information which adds nothing but confusion.

    How many times do I have to state that RX330 IS A NEW DESIGN AND IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM RX300? There is absolutely no basis for you to make assumptions about Sienna and RX330 based on the RX300 - OK?

    > EXCEPT the 330, and apparently the Sienna, use differing final
    > drive ratios front and rear to bias the torque to the front.

    But you don't know that! Again, please stop repeating your assumption unless you have the official specs.

    > The shortcoming to all of this is the low duty cycle capability
    > of the ABS pump/motor.

    Again, this is pure speculation on your part.

    > In my 01 RX300 its VSC/Trac functionality lasted less than a minute.

    I have mentioned before, your RX300 has mechanical problem. Please quote me any other reports of similar failure. NHTSA has done a study on the effectiveness of ESP/VSC using a ML and a Lexus LX. They drove both of them very hard, with VSC active for prolonged period; and there was no problems.

    > But I recently saw a post about the Sequoia that indicated the
    > system "bailed" after about 30 to 45 seconds of continuous AWD
    > apportioning requirement.

    Sequoia's AWD has no relationship with Sienna/RX330's. Again, make no assumption based on a totally different car with a totally different system.
  • leknlekn Posts: 78
    On your "Suppose..." article:
    wwest your really need to read up on AWD/FWD/RWD and car dynamics. Your concept is totally wrong; including your view that "FWD is extremely hazardous".

    > Suppose that like the RX300, the RX330 and the Sienna have a rear
    > final drive ratio of 2.92 and a front FDR of 3.29.

    Don't suppose. Find your facts! How do you know that RX330 has the same final drive ratio as RX300? They DON'T!

    > The front wheels are operating with a greater gear reduction in
    > relation to engine RPM so they will instantly receive the clear
    > majority of the engine torque.

    Wrong. F/R torque split is 50/50; please check the reference I quoted.

    > Brake apportioning AWD system CANNOT work at the front wheels for
    > the very same reason you NEVER see a front LSD on anything but a
    > really serious off-road vehicle.

    This is rubbish. It is more of a cost issue. Nowadays, most modern AWD system (such as Audi's Quattro) uses traction control/brakes as front "LSD".

    > That's just one of the reasons why REAL AWD/4WD systems always
    > have RWD torque biasing.

    This is utter rubbish. Audi's quattro, generally regarded as one of the best, has 50/50 torque split, not rear biased.

    > FWD, and front torque biased AWD vehicles should be banned from
    > any road north of the snow line!

    More rubbish! I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please quote me any references to support your ridiculous statement. Many of the SUVs are front biased AWD, including Volvo's XC90, which many considered to be the safest SUV on the market.

    Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh. But you refused to listen even when clearly pointed out that you were wrong or you had no basis on your statement. I hate to see some users coming here looking for information, but were totally misled by your false information.
  • danjaecksdanjaecks Posts: 54
    lekn: Thanks for the references, that's what I was looking for. Didn't mean to start a war.
    Dan Jaecks
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Recently you submitted a question to the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department.

    We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you within 120 hours.

    Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

    You may also update this question by replying to this message. Because your reply will be automatically processed, you MUST enter your reply in the space below. Text entered into any other part of this message will be discarded.
    [===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]

    [===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]

    If your issue remains unresolved, please update this question here.

     Subject
    RX330
      
     Discussion Thread
     Response (Jeff Shimizu) 04/07/2003 01:43 PM
    Dear Mr. West:

    I am following up with you regarding your inquiry regarding the 2004 RX 330.

    Like the all-wheel-drive RX 300, the all-wheel-drive RX 330 uses different axle ratios for front and rear.

    If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

    Sincerely,
    Jeff Shimizu
    Customer Satisfaction Representative
     Response (Jeff Shimizu) 04/03/2003 02:44 PM
    Dear Mr. West:

    Thank you for contacting the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department regarding the 2032 RX 330. I am currently researching your submission. Please expect a response within the next three to five business days.

    If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

    Sincerely,
    Jeff Shimizu
    Customer Satisfaction Representative
     Customer (Willard West) 04/02/2003 05:26 PM
    A Lexus factory rep at the recent Malibu RX330 introductory event told me that the RX300 series used differing final drive ratios front vs rear so the "open" type center differential's torque distribution ratio is not the normal 50/50 on high traction surfaces.

    Will the new RX330 still use the same technique?

    Willard West
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: [email protected]
    To: Willard West
    Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 3:31 PM
    Subject: RX330 [Incident: 030423-000001]

    Recently you submitted a question to the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department.

    We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you within 120 hours.

    Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

    You may also update this question by replying to this message. Because your reply will be automatically processed, you MUST enter your reply in the space below. Text entered into any other part of this message will be discarded.
    [===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]
     
    Maybe I'm confused, more likely than not, I am.
     
    But.
     
    I think/thought that Anti-lock brakes only really became feasible once someone developed an electrically driven pump/motor combination that could replenish the HIGHLY pressurized brake fluid as it was being bled off by the actuation of the brake pressure release solenoid at each wheel.

    So I have always believed that ABS REQUIRED a pump/motor combination.
     
    Then there is the COMMON RAIL problem.
     
    But, regardless of all that, does either, or both of the pump/motor combinations used for BA, VSC, etc, have over-taxing protection time-outs?

    [===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]

    If your issue remains unresolved, please update this question here.

     Subject
    RX330
      
     Discussion Thread
     Response (Jeff Shimizu) 04/29/2003 03:31 PM
    Dear Mr. West:

    The Brake Actuator of the 2004 RX 330 has two pumps, among other components. These pumps are used for the Brake Assist, TRAC, and VSC functions. The pumps are not used for the ABS function.

    Sincerely,
    Jeff Shimizu
    Customer Satisfaction Representative
     Customer (Willard West) 04/29/2003 01:41 PM
    Your response:

    "The pumps are not used for ABS function."

    I think your response is possibly entirely incorrect.

    The Lexus electrical wiring diagram for the MY2001 RX300, pub no. EWD419U, indicates only one pump/motor used for ABS/BA/VSC/Trac.

    Does the MY2004 use two separate pumps?

    But the question about time-outs to protect the RX330 "pump" or "pumps" from being over-taxed is still unanswered. I was told be a Lexus mechanic technician that my 2001 has a time to protect its single ABS pump, so I guess my question only pertains to the MY2004 RX330.
     Response (Jeff Shimizu) 04/29/2003 12:10 PM
    Dear Mr. West:

    Thank you for your response. The pumps in the Brake Actuator are used for the Brake Assist, TRAC, and VSC functions. The pumps are not used for the ABS function.

    If you have any further questions or concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

    Sincerely,
    Jeff Shimizu
    Customer Satisfaction Representative
     Customer (Willard West) 04/25/2003 01:40 PM
    Simlified form of the question....

    Does the RX330 ABS pump control system have a time out delay to protect the pump motor from being over-taxed or over-heated?

    If the answer is yes:

    1. How long is the ABS pump allowed to operate continuously before being disabled?
    2. How long is the recovery, cool-down time, before it is again enabled?
    3. Once it is timed out, disabled, is there enough "reserve" service that it is still available for anti-lock braking use?
     Response (Jeff Shimizu) 04/25/2003 01:21 PM
    Dear Mr. West:

    I am following up with you regarding your recent submission.

    The Vehicle Skid Control system of the 2004 all-wheel-drive RX 330 has remained continuously active during our off-road testing. If the ABS warning light on your 2001 all-wheel-drive RX 330 illuminates, the anti-lock brake system of your vehicle will not operate.

    If you have any further questions or concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.

    Sincerely,
    Jeff Shimizu
    Customer Satisfaction Representative
     Response (Jeff Shimizu) 04/24/2003 06:18 AM
    Dear Mr. West:

    Thank you for contacting the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department regarding your 2001 RX 300. I am currently researching your submission. Please expect a response within the next three business days.

    Sincerely,
    Jeff Shimizu
    Customer Satisfaction Representative
     Customer (Willard West) 04/23/2003 01:25 PM
    I understand that the new RX330, like the Toyota Sequoia, uses the ABS pump to provide brake fluid pressure for apportioning engine torque to "simulate" a true AWD system. Shortly after I purchased my 01 AWD RX300 I discovered that the VSC/Trac system imposed a time limit on the duration of the use of the ABS pump when used for stability or traction control.

    I was on a fairly muddy and wet dirt road and got the RX300 sideways and fairly quickly thereafter the VSC/Trac failure indication lit. The Bellevue Lexus service department informed me that this was to prevent the ABS pump from failures due to being over-taxed and over-heating.

    I was recently in touch with a MY2002 Sequoia owner who says his VSC/Trac system went into the failure mode about 30 to 45 seconds after getting stuck in a muddy road. Even with the VSC/Trac intentionally "failed" to protect the ABS pump the Sequoia still has a 4WD mode which can serve as backup in these circumstances.

    Assuming the RX330's brake modulation torque apportioning AWD system has the same firmware protection of the ABS pump as does my 01 RX300 and potentially the MY2002 Sequoia, is there a "backup" or over-ride method to extend the RX330's AWD capability beyond the ABS pump protection timer?

    Additionally, once the ABS pump has been "timed out" by the AWD system is it still immediately operable for actual ABS purposes, or does it need a cool-down period before ABS will again work?

    Willard West
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    As you can see from the above the folks at Lexus initially misled me about the use of the ABS pump/motor in the RX330. You can also likely "see" the extreme reluctance to make any admissions about a time-out for the ABS pump/motor.

    As a result of the above "last" enquiry I recieved a phone call from the manager of the customer enquiries department. First he apologized for the misleading information about the use of the the ABS pump/motor and then told me that I was correct, it is used for all "braking" functions, ABS, VSC, Trac, and AWD torque apportioning.

    With regards a time-out he did say that there was one but he believed it to be several minutes. His belief was based on his own experience driving the RX330 on a prepared adverse driving course wherein the VSC came into play many times within several minutes of driving but never timed out.

    The ABS pump motor in my RX330 appears to be the physical equivalent of what many manufacturers have used for years for windshield wiper motors. I am quite sure that a very serious reduction gear set is used to achieve the type of hydraulic pressure and flow volume required of the pump section.

    I am just as certain that this motor could not withstand more than a minute of operations of this type without severely over-heating the permanent magnet "field" resulting in eventual loss of the magnetism.

    Several manufacturers are doing research on direct fuel injection under compression pressures. Once that continuous duty motor/pump assembly is perfected then we will likely see long duration AWD capability in vehicles like these that use brake pressure for AWD engine torque apportioning, Sequoia included.

    Does anyone know if the ML series uses a longer duration pump/motor assembly?
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    The following is copied directly from the Toyota MY2001 Highlander owner's manual, page 259, middle column:

    "Installing snow tires on the front wheels only can lead to an excessive difference in road grip capability between the front and rear tires, which could cause loss of vehicle control"

    The exact same wording is on page 283, right column, of the MY2001 RX300.

    I will assume that no one will dispute that loss of vehicle control would in many cases be EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS.

    I will also assume that no one will dispute that one of the major advantages of FWD is better "driven" wheel traction due to front engine weight bias.

    So now let's focus on just two of the words in the above quote:

          "EXCESSIVE DIFFERENCE"

    I'm sure many of you who own FWD vehicles have been told that when installing studded tires they MUST be installed on all four wheels. Tire shops would undoubtedly get their product liability insurance cancelled rather quickly if they didn't religiously abide by that rule.

    So, we already know that FWD vehicles, predominantly, already have greater traction in the front than in the rear. Other than snow tires, studs, or snowchains only on the front to make the difference EXCESSIVE what other circumstances might we encounter?

    The worse one I can imagine is a downhill run on a slippery surface with traffic stopped at the bottom. As you top the hill and see the stopped traffic your first (natural) instinct will be to lift your foot from the throttle.

    WRONG!!

    If you can now keep the vehicle from swapping ends more than once before reaching those stopped vehicles then consider yourself a DAMN good driver.

    In a RWD vehicle even if the engine drag torque is enough to break the rear end loose and cause it to begin to come around your front wheel traction is dedicated EXCLUSIVELY to your ability to keep the front of the vehicle aligned with the rear.

    But the actuality is that in a RWD vehicle the engine drag torque would simply act to slow the vehicle while you use the front "contact patch" to maintain directional stability.
  • leknlekn Posts: 78
    I think we are veering more and more off topics for this forum.

    FWD hazardous reference? Boy, you are quoting something totally unrelated. Putting snows tires in front wheels only of course is hazardous. This applies to RWD cars as well! Loss of traction in the rear wheels would cause fishtailing and the car can spin around - and this is not limited to FWD or Front biased cars! So how can you "assume" that this implies FWD cars are hazardous??!!

    And I have no idea what your example scenerio is trying to illustrate. When you try to stop in an emergency, you use your brakes - you don't use engine braking, and whether it is a FWD/RWD or AWD car does not matter one bit. And your control of the car depends more on ABS and VSC, as none of the wheels were being driven under braking. Anyways, your concept of car dynamics is totally wrong.

    Asking "Customer Satisfaction Representative" technical question is a complete waste of time. They are not mechanic, and they know very little about technical specifics of the car. Your persistent rambling on the ABS/VSC pump issue is also a waste of time. You simply cannot get your RX300's VSC to be active continuously for a minute no matter how and where you drive. VSC works momentarily and usually just on a SINGLE wheel. It cannot overheat in such a short period - it could only be a mechanical failure.

    I would expect much wider reports if VSC fails so easily. Your repeated quoting of the Sequoia is meaningless as it has a different AWD system - and it could have a mechanical failure as well.
  • denvermomdenvermom Posts: 8
    Hello All.
    I am awaiting the delivery of my new Sienna and am now second guessing my color choice. I was hoping for black but when that wasn't an option I ordered the Salsa Red. I saw one on the road and didn't care for it (it seems super dark, not red but almost maroon) so changed the order to the lighter blue 2 weeks ago. I am now second guessing myself but with so little to go on (nothing on the lot to look at & the paint chip in the book & photos online are hard to judge by) if I have made the best choice. Has anyone seen the Aspen Green? Is it dark like hunter or much lighter? The photo on line makes it look dark but its so hard to tell for sure with all of those camera lights on it. Also was considering the darker blue but seemed almost electric...has anyone seen this in the flesh? The only ones I have seen are the Salsa Red, the Sand and the dark gray.
    Also, does anyone have a real idea on delivery time frames? It seems like some of you have inside scoops, which is why I ask. I am really getting zilch for info from my dealer and I just want to get an idea of how long of a wait this may be. Is there a way to official find out? I am also worried that since I placed a specific order w/ certain options that could add a lot of time to the order where I really don't need to be that picky about what is or isn't on the van. I also did not get the nav. option as it sounded like that wasn't going to be available until mid summer but now that its almost summer I am wondering if I should reconsider. I don't really need it but I plan on having this for a long time so I am just considering it. I do like that rear camera that comes with it.
    Thanks in advance!
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    Well then, I suppose it was a complete waste of money for Cadillac to finally put an over-running clutch in the cars with the high torque northstar engine to help prevent the type of scenario I described.

    Not all FWD vehicles have ABS, and certainly not VSC to rely on for helping them brake on slippery surfaces.

    Just how many places/times do you have to read the old saw, "if you're going to replace only two tires always install them on the rear" before you get it?
  • kgnw1kgnw1 Posts: 94
    I also wanted a black van. But it wasn't offered. We choose to go with Stratosphere Mica. But we almost choose Aspen Green Pearl and here's a couple pictures: It's kinda like a gray-green.

    2004 Sienna | Aspen Green Pearl

    Toyota is currently producing about 2200+ Siennas per week filling various dealer preferred allocations. You'll have to ask your dealer on what they have coming in for inventory. They know what they have coming in and what dates they are scheduled to arrive.

    There are two ways for a dealer to get a specific van you; ordering or preferencing.

    From what I understand, "ordering" is sending a special order to the manufacturing center and they build it to your specifications. Toyota builds these after the scheduled allocation run and takes anywhere from 8-16 weeks. It usually takes at least 6 weeks before they have a status on your vehicle and when it would be built.

    "Preferencing" is what the dealers allocate for lot inventory. Size of the dealership, sales volume and demographics play into getting it accepted by the regional distributor. Smaller dealers usually have to earn higher end models by selling what they have on inventory first. If a vehicle during an inventory run happens to match your specs, it then gets allocated to your dealership as long as they have open slots in inventory.
  • denvermomdenvermom Posts: 8
    Thank you very much kgnw1. I saw your mica blue pictures there too & now my husband is debating if he likes that better than the light blue we have ordered. :)
    From what I understand, my order is under both of these options that you mention. I was hoping they would give me a ship date but that's not happening yet. I suppose I will remain patient. Thanks again!!!
  • kgnw1kgnw1 Posts: 94
    I was getting impatient as well. I ordered my van on March 17th from Uhlmann Toyota a small dealer in WA that gave me 2% over invoice. I was told to expect it in late June or July.

    Meanwhile I work a couple blocks from Michael's Toyota in Bellevue. They are the largest volume dealer in our state. They currently have 12 new Siennas on the lot in various trims. Everyday I would pass by them and see a new van on the lot. It was frustrating to see these and not have my van yet.

    But I got the call last weekend about my van. It's to be built on June 9th and should be at the dealership within 12 days afterwards. Yeah!! BTW I ordered a LTD with DVD & Running Boards in Strat Mica Blue.
  • denvermomdenvermom Posts: 8
    I did see your pics but was wondering, in your opinion, is that blue more on the navy side or royal side in real life/real light? From the brochure & web we thought it was electric but your pictures are making us rethink this. Pics just are SO hard to tell sometimes though. I even went down to scope the lots last Sunday when they were closed but all of the Sienna's were in the locked lot in back where you couldn't see. I ordered the LTD as well w/ DVD too. I can't remember about the boards though. I don't think mine has it but I'll have to look at the papers later. Did you ever see the lighter blue?
  • kgnw1kgnw1 Posts: 94
    It's pretty dark. Almost a midnight blue. The very last picture is probably the closest to real life.

    I would look at a Camry or 4runner in that color to really make a decision.
  • denvermomdenvermom Posts: 8
    I didn't realize those cars came in the same colors. You would think the dealer would tell me that as I am agonizing! I will head over there later & check it out. Thanks!!!
  • kgnw1kgnw1 Posts: 94
    Just be sure to look at a Statosphere Mica and not the Catalina Blue Metallic.
  • bakelly11bakelly11 Posts: 64
    I think they look exactly as they do in the pictures in the website denvermom displayed. The Green VERY nice. (I just don't want green). For me, that left a choice between the dark blue or the light blue. We decided to go with light blue because I'm hoping it will show less scratches and dirt. (Our current car is a medium shade of blue and it still shows every nick. That's why I want to go lighter) I have yet to see a car in the light blue.

    This is such a personal decision. Hard to tell you which way to go.
  • nofeernofeer Posts: 381
    is it available???
    anyone w/xle/ltd with nav.... ican get aftermarket alpine nav and probably will get aftermarket dvd entertainment system w/larger screen debating whether to get navas factory or add on

    i will probably get ltd to get hid, front/rear park assist but i dont want moonroof.......maybe by winter and the presence of ody and quest the option list will change or do you think i'm dreaming????
  • kmeadkmead Posts: 232
    Mr West: you make many assumptions about automotive dynamics that are incorrect both about fwd, rwd, and awd. Your tone is also unnecessarily offensive and shrill. Having grown up in an area that has copious amounts of snow and being old enough to have driven RWD, FWD and a variety of different types of AWD and 4WD in deep snow, mud and every other weather condition I can categorically state that all systems have a limit to what they can do. A buried Hummer is not a pretty site or cheap to extricate. FWD is not unsafe in any way, and unless a vehicle has a relatively large amount of horsepower, torque steer is a much smaller problem than it was years ago and can be handled with suspension design and active engine output reduction (or a Torsen diff or similar).

    You put 4 snows on a FWD car because the relatively lightly loaded rear tires need as much traction as possible. This need for traction is magnified under braking as more of the load is transfered to the front wheels and can cause the rear brakes to lock. With ABS and now with stability control this is hardly an issue even when braking hard on a turn. When replacing 2 tires (a bad thing to do in any case, and indicative of a failure to rotate tires for even wear) you can put them on the rear or the front it really doesn't matter as long as both pairs have enough tread to be legal. If you want more traction under dry or wet conditions, then put the more worn tires on the rear as they have more traction than new tires. If its likely to be snowy, then the newer ones should be on the rear as the greater tread depth gives more traction in deep snow.

    In regards to off road, or very poor traction conditions there is no doubt that a true 4wd system with lockable diffs is superior to most any of the awd systems. The fact is most people don't need that level of function (and the tradeoffs of poor fuel consumption, high maintenance and so on) so the light duty awd systems are more than adequate for their needs. For most users fwd has enough traction with good tires for the driving capability of most drivers, if its too slippery or too deep to get going with fwd and snowtires awd or 4wd is likely to get them into trouble. Frankly a RX300 or a RX330 is just a road car that can go off road a little, it is not an offroader and expecting it to perform like one is clearly not understanding its aim or capabilities.

    FWD and AWD on the Sienna are both safe solutions to the needs of the drivers who will buy it. The AWD system is for people who live in snowy areas and need to get up poorly maintained inclines, not off road. FWD with traction control will perform nearly as well unless the inclines become too steep and too much wieght is transfered to the rear reducing traction. My wife I doubt will be going out much when there is ice or too much snow on the road.

    As to your next line of argument, manufacturers going back to RWD and abondoning FWD, they are doing it for dry road traction and dynamics with alot of horsepower. They can do it now because the state of the art for traction control, stability control and active engine power management make it possible to give an inherently unstable vehicle to a marginal driver and know the machine will make up for many shortcomings of both. FWD will continue to be found on small to large vehicles for people that prefer economy, space and generally good dynamics in all conditions. Sports cars, sports sedans, and trucks will continue/return to RWD.

    So, back down, there is nothing wrong with FWD and AWD may be a somewhat limited feature, but it will be more than adequate for 95% of the use that 99% of its users wil ask of it.
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