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I think you meant to say you THINK the Mazda6 is primarily a rental car. I happen to think you're wrong, but I know I'm not gonna change your mind. I hardly ever see rental 6 models around here. I DO see a lot of privately owned ones. Considering the nearest dealer is 40 miles away, versus 4 Ford dealers within 10 miles (along with a couple of every other dealer too), that tells you something about what people think of the 6, if they're going through that much trouble to own one.
I DO think it's likely the Fusion will see more fleet sales than the 6 when it's released. It will likely replace the Taurus, and possibly the 6 as well, freeing up more 6 models for private sales. It might not be the runaway hit the 3 is becoming, but the 6 is a well built and popular car. And yes, Ford would prefer to purchase their own models. They own less than 50% of Mazda. That's a controlling interest under Japanese law, but they also have a responsibility to the other shareholders to show the unit (Mazda) making a profit. That means Ford has to PAY Mazda for each 6 that it purchases...whereas things get murkier if Hertz buys Fords. Fact is, they NEEDED a vehicle to fill a slot...it wasn't a matter of showing sales for leftover Mazda6 models.
As for the new Miata...it's completely toasted everything that comes along. The MR2 is dead. The Honda S2000 had to move upmarket to get away from it. Somehow I don't see GM, which has ZERO experience making lightweight sporty cars of this type, as being able to compete with a Miata at a "new level," though they may be able to win at pure production volume. Now the Smart/Dodge Slingshot might be a different story, but those are several years away assuming they arrive at all, which is still in debate. There's nothing else in the pipeline to compete with it, unless you want to count the MINI Cooper convertible, which might be able to come close.
Do you have anything to contradict that?"
He's saying he DOESN'T know. He THINKS that, but you have to PROVE your position.
Personally, I'd LOVE to see some percentage numbers...they've got to be out there somewhere. I'll be very surprised if Mazda is selling as many as 10% to fleets. Anyone come up with any numbers?
I know I'm kinda jumping in the middle of things here, but here are a few points:
1. We just bought a Mazda MPV from a Ford/Mazda dealer. In my conversations with the sales manager he mentioned that Mazda is carrying their dealership right now, especially the 3 and 6. The 3 in particular is a grand slam for them.
2. It's been reported that Mazda botched the product mix for the 6, with too many low end 4 cyl / auto models and not enough of the sport package V6. If you're looking for a sporty, good looking 4 door with a V6 you buy a Mazda6s. If you want a boring, basic transportation automatic with a 4 cyl, you buy a Camry. So a lot of those extra 4 cyl. 6i models probably went to Hertz. And Mazda makes and sells more high profit, loaded 6s models. This is a bad thing...why? Oh, and don't forget the wagon and hatchbacks just came out as well. I believe the wagon comes standard with the V6, and the hatch standard with the sport pkg.
3. My company has a contract with Hertz. Lately I've been seeing a lot of rental Mazda6s and MPVs in the parking lot. When I talk to my out of town coworkers and ask them about their rental car they generally say something like "Yeah, this is a great car. A LOT better than the Taurus they usually give me." Once again, this is a bad thing...why? It gives them some exposure they haven't had.
I guess my point is that you can't call the 6 a failure due to the fact that there are a lot of them in rental lots. The V6 models have been very popular, and the 3 and RX8 are getting people into the showrooms. Mazda has found its way, and they're getting new product that people like. There are a couple old models in the lineup still, but that's the same as anyone else.
-Jason
Just a slight clarification - the S2000 STARTED upmarket from the Miata.
My, discussion on this thread has suddenly got spirited! While I do not have a source because it was too long ago, I do recall reading the news section of one of the monthly car mags maybe 6,8 months ago which stated that Mazda had to release a large portion of the '04 MY production run of the Mazda6 to rental fleets, because it had wound up with excess inventory. They launched it badly and then ran out of the V-6 manual early in the year, both of which hurt sales.
Later, in April, Mitsubishi did the same thing with a whole ton of Galants because they had been just stacking up, and also to boost YTD sales figures at a time when the company was already hitting the wall financially.
And while it is true that Toyota limits overall fleet sales to less than 10%, Camry is its fleet leader at somewhere around 16% or so.
I guess Ford is going to continue building the Taurus for a while after the 500 and Fusion appear, and you can bet those are all going to fleets. I am sure Ford saw the success GM had with that approach for the new Malibu and the old "Classic". So it will be a while before you see large quantities of Fusions in rental lots.
But I don't think you will see a lot of Mazda6's there either - sales of the 6 have been picking up, and Mazda has vowed not to repeat the mistake of running out of V-6 manuals for '05.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID:
"Toyota sells more than 400k Camrys. It sells a much lesser percentage of Camrys to rental fleets than Mazda sells Mazda6s."
Sorry if I expect someone who makes an objective statement like that to be able to back it up with facts. Without facts, I might just think you pulled that out of your....
My point in this debate is clear. MD said Mazda's sales this year meant there is no need for further debate here. I said, is it possible the sales increases are at least somewhat relying on Hertz. I also gave Mazda6s sales stats, didn't I? As in only 34k through June this year.
I do not know how many Mazda6s Hertz has, but given that Hertz has 10s of thousands of rental vehicles across the nation, and the Mazda6 is prominent enough to be mentioned by name, I think it likely Hertz has more than 3.4k Mazda6s, which would be 10% on the half year. In fact, I think it quite likely Hertz has more than 7k Mazda6s, which would be 10% for the whole year.
Responding to Jaserb: I do not know how the Hertz Mazda6s are equipped around the country, but every one of them at the Hertz rental station in Chicago (and there were at least 20 there) were loaded V6 with the manumatic.
If Mazda6 at Hertz means more lot sales that is great. If not, the fact that the Fusion is on the horizon could mean that Ford will just use that car for Hertz and not the Mazda6. Afterall, Ford has more stake in its name here than Mazda's.
That is baloney sausage.
Look at the string. The string started with Md arguing all is rosy and that we should go on to a new topic.
I suggested there is evidence that all is not rosy. Rather than getting reasoned response, I get overly aggressive angry flames.
We are not journalists or business school professors here. We are armchair debators. It is quite a pain that someone cannot put topics up for debate with out meeting personal animosity.
That buyers are willing to travel far to buy Mazda6s now does not have any application with the Mazda6 and the Fusion.
Ford does not make the Fusion yet, and does not have a competitor to the Mazda6.
It is certainly worth considering how the Fusion may impact Mazda6 sales. I thought this is the forum to debate that.
The Solstice to date is garnering praise. Look at the Edmunds' First Drive.
As for the Fusion, who can know until it gets released? It's still at least a model year off, maybe even 2. Right now, the 6 competes with the Taurus (even though Hertz lists it as "full size") the Malibu, Legacy, Accord, Camry, and Altima, basically. It competes very well against all of them, though Accord and Camry have an edge in interior space.
As for the Fusion, there's very little info about it. It shares platform and powertrain with the 6, and we have photos of a concept. That's it. It sure doesn't LOOK like a cosmetically re-vamped 6 though. These aren't the days of GM's rebadging spree. These days, cars can share a common platform and chassis and still be extremely unique. Case in point are the Mazda3 and Volvo S40, where basically ALL that's shared is the platform. Ford could end up using it's own suspension, steering gear, completely different interior, etc. so the thought that the Fusion will simply be a "rebadged Mazda6" might not be true at all. Only time will tell on that one, but likely Ford will use a milder, more "mainstream" interior and suspension, both for cost reasons and for a wider appeal to those looking for a "snoozebox" whereas Mazda tends to target those looking for a sportier look and ride. This makes sense and would fit in with the current brand strategy.
The upcoming Five Hundred and Montego were originally planned as direct replacements for the Taurus and Sable. As that program progressed, Ford realized that the Volvo platform used for these cars could not be sold profitably at the same price point as the less expensive versions of the Taurus and Sable.
Unfortunately, the Nasser years had left Ford's passenger car cupboard rather bare, so Ford went with the Mazda6 platform for the upcoming Fusion, Milan and Lincoln Zephyr.
Having seen spy shots of the Fusion, I doubt that it will bore too heavily into Mazda6 sales. The Mazda6 looks very light and "Japanese" to me, while the Fusion has a heavier look that will soon become the signature face for Ford's American car lineup.
Interestingly, most of the Mazda6s that I see on the roads around here are the higher level, sportier versions. I doubt this will be true for the Fusion or Milan.
speaking of Hertz, next week I am visiting CA, and guess what car am I renting from the Hertz fleet.... I even SPECIFICALLY told them that I WANT A RENTAL MAZDA6 and keep all the other carp away from me.
(oh, while on the phone, I found out that Hertz keeps around 30% of their mid-size fleet to be Mazda6's, decent ones w/ Sports Pkgs too, not just plain ones with hubcaps, heh)
that's how much I like the Mazda6's even though I don't even own one (driven several from friends, even autocrossed one, heh, excellent car)
Jaserb: How do you like your new MPV so far? My next-door neighbor bought one about a year ago and she says it's a fabulous vehicle?
Nippon: I didn't know you once owned an RX-7. Was it your only Mazda product?
I'd like to add my insights into this Mazda discussion...I once owned one, an '87 B2200 long-bed pickup. I bought it from the original owner with 20k original miles. Although it was a dog in terms of performance it was extremely reliable, even more so than the Volvo I'm driving now. Another neighbor of mine is the head master technician at the local Mazda dealer, and it's Vermont's top-rated Mazda dealer at that.
Nah, I've just had my guard up ever since you proclaimed that CR rated the MR2 better than the Miata for reliability. When I went to look it up at the news stand for myself because I remembered it differently, I see that CR doesn't even rate the MR2.
So forgive me if I question some of the things that you say.
If the big h got good information from the Hertz associate he spoke with - and I suspect he did - then 30% of the mid-size vehicles offered by the country's largest rental brand are Mazda6s. I do not know what that 30% figure translates to in raw numbers, but I bet is easily over 10,000.
I agree that Ford will offer a snoozer Fusion. But I also think the Ford SVT will get a hold of the Fusion and make at least a few thousand buff versions. Ford controls Mazda, not vice versa. Ford is fighting determined efforts by GM's Chevrolet brand and Toyota to wear the crown in auto sales. There is no way Ford is going to let Mazda have the cherry version while it sells only the sour plums.
I also disagree that the difference between the Fusion and Mazda6 will be as great as the difference between the S40 and the Mazda3. The S40 is far more expensive than the 3. The Fusion and Mazda6 will be competing for the same consumer bracket. The dollars will not allow for many differences.
Finally, to go again to that Hertz deal, Ford is going to weigh on Hertz to buy from where it has the most capacity. If Ford can make more Fusions for less dollars than Mazda can make Mazda6s, then the Hertz mid-size becomes the Fusion, not the Mazda6
I said that published services such as JD Power and CR rate Honda and Toyota higher than Mazda. They do.
Then, in response to Driftracer's demand for personal experiences, I said I have been less than happy with my Miata. I have.
You then misconstrued my post to make a negative.
Same as here. In response to MD's claim there is nothing less to debate, I suggested it is possible that rental giant Hertz featuring the Mazda6 as its mid-size may suggest a lot of the 34k Mazda6 sales were sold to Hertz. Which could be a problem.
You proceeded to proclaim I was pulling this out of my heinee. To me, that hardly seems like a modern day Diogenes with lamp in hand.
Earlier, I said Honda and Toyota are generally rated higher than Mazda by CR and JD Power.
Never made any specific Miata claim.
These are in the "Honda Run Run Out" forum, August 12, posts 1941 and 1951.
I said that published services such as JD Power and CR rate Honda and Toyota higher than Mazda. They do."
No, I am refering to your comment where you said CR rated the MR2 better than the Miata specifically. The posts were lost with Edmunds software goofs, but I remember it.
"I suggested it is possible that rental"
No, you didn't suggest it is possible. Again, this what you really said:
"It sells a much lesser percentage of Camrys to rental fleets than Mazda sells Mazda6s"
Does that sound like a suggestion to you? Me neither.
Yes you did, you said the MR2 rated better. Lucky you for the Edmunds goof.
"I do not know the percentage of Mazda6s sold to Hertz, but there are a lot of them. If the number is over 5 or 10% (and I wager it is) that will present a challenge to new car sales. "
And we know from many a post in Return of GM's Might that Toyota sells less than 10% of its cars to rental fleets.
As I said, I do not have exact numbers for Mazda6 sales to rental fleets. But I think there are very few who will dispute that the percentages are in favor of the Camry.
I linked my Miata comment posts.
Like I said before, the post that I'm talking about was lost. Edmunds was messing around with their server on that date. Remember? I know you do, and I know you remember making that comment.
to quote ateixeira on 8-13-04 in the "Honda Run Run Out" forum:
"Are we back? Lost some posts there."
However, it stands to reason if one is going to make such an attack, one would quote the person being attacked, not someone else.
I've made my point and linked my posts. I will not entertain this any further, as it going in a direction Edmunds discourages.
(By the way, I checked Hertz' SEC filings. The last quarterly report says Hertz spent 2.8 billion on Ford family vehicles and sold back 1.8 billion to Ford on its repurchase program this year. Hertz did not specify how many of the 2.8 billion it spent on Mazdas or any other specific brand. I do not know where one can find how many cars of a specific brand Hertz buys.)
The Taurus is in another Hertz category than the Mazda6. Either Mazda6 will have to remain the mainstay mid-size, of Ford will have to fill the void with another brand.
I do not think any of the Mazda6s on the Hertz lots are manual.
That's fine. That doesn't mean you're immune from someone calling you out. If you don't want someone calling you out, don't make objective statements that you're not sure of. Less people will "attack" you then.
"However, it stands to reason if one is going to make such an attack, one would quote the person being attacked, not someone else."
For the third time, your post was lost. You are lucky.
It really irks me that you're making these comments about me personally "attacking" you when you know *exactly* what I am talking about but won't admit it because you know the post I am refering to is gone.
I do think it's interesting that all the yack about Mazda6s sold to Hertz was based on a guess.
Meade
Meade"
I think the big issue was the fact that is WAS a guess, but it was thrown out as fact or something. Plus I think there was a statment requiring facts to refute the guess. At least, I guess.
From - Mazda: Does it have a good future in US?
To - Kindergarten: Does it have a good future in US?
My posts have been clear that I do not know the percentage of Mazda6s sold to Hertz.
I do know that the Mazda6 has not sold in particularly stellar numbers: 34k mid-size sedans in 6 months is less even than GM's fleet only Classic, for instance.
And I stated given the low numbers of overall sales, and the prominence of the car at the Country's biggest rental fleet, perhaps it makes sense not to be so sanguine about Mazda's future in the US.
The idea was to continue debate, which I think this forum was meant to foster. Perhaps we should go back to creating News and Views forums like the one I recall a few years ago along the line of: "The new Civic is great. Positive Posters Only."
But why bother coming at all if the only thing you are looking for is a fawning affirmation of your established opinion?
Any further posts along this line will be deleted without notice and referred to management.
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"We've taken the hard decision in the U.S. to reduce fleet sales and concentrate on retail sales. Our effort is to take the long-term view and grow Mazda's brand strength."
Meade
And what will it mean to overall sales growth?
THANK YOU MEADE!!!
That is the main reason why I was questioning these contradictory statements:
"It sells a much lesser percentage of Camrys to rental fleets than Mazda sells Mazda6s."
then this:
"I do not know the percentage of Mazda6s sold to Hertz"
Lets see some numbers. I don't doubt that it could be true, but if you want to shut everyone up about this issue, lets see some numbers. Otherwise, drop it.
Nail on the head.
"Thanks to pricing incentives and aggressive sales to car- rental fleets, U.S. sales of Toyota's Camry sedan have vaulted 46% so far this year, making it the best seller through February."
-- Business Week magazine
Meade
Since we can only use absolute raw data here - no thinking or conjecture allowed (what a boring world), here are Mazda's total sales for July 2004: 23,487 down from 26,751 in July 2003. How is that truth speaking to you?
In MY 2003, Mazda had total fleet sales of 19,694 cars, or 13.8 percent of its total volume of 142,220 cars.
In the same year, Toyota had total fleet sales of 93,625 cars, or 11.3 percent of its total volume of 828,287 cars.
So Mazda did have a *slightly* higher percentage ... but far fewer cars went to fleet sales due to Toyota's production being almost six times that of Mazda's.
Keep in mind also that the fleet percentages for BOTH companies were far below the industry average of 20.0 percent of volume sold as fleet vehicles (22.7 percent for imports).
If you want to see this data for yourself, visit:
http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2004/affb_04_7.pdf
There. Does that cover it? Percentage-wise, not an astounding difference (when you consider Honda only sold 1.2 percent of its volume to fleets) -- but oh, what a difference when you compare the total number of cars sold to fleets -- Toyota's total was almost five times that of Mazda's.
So, at least we can debunk one piece of conjecture posted in post 752 yesterday, re: "I believe Toyota limits its total sales to rental fleets to below 10% of total sales."
There is my data that contradicts that. Challenge met. Off to search some more ...
Meade
Conjecture is perfectly fine but when conjecture is presented as fact is where you're going to run into trouble.
This is significant because rental fleets keep cars far shorter than commercial fleets. A large rental company like Hertz will sell its cars after six months or so.
That means Mazda dealers are far more likely, percentage wise, to be competing with low mileage used Mazda6s than Toyota is with its vehicles.
Rental fleets usually buy cars with a buyback contract, meaning the manufacturer buys the cars back after a given period of time. Commercial buyers usually do not have this option available. That means Commercial fleet ales are far more lucrative than Rental fleet sales.
And, going back to my earlier point, if, as it appears, most of the Mazda rental sales are going to Hertz, how does Mazda make up for lost sales if Ford decides to sell the Fusion to Hertz, cutting off the Mazda pipeline?
Finally, the figures are for 2003. Given Mazda's overall low sales compared to Toyota, even a modest increase in rental sales - say just a thousand or so - bumps Mazda's precentage algerbaeically.
And for the debate-challenged - please note that everything here - as has everything in my other posts in this thread - is posited adversarily. That is, for sake of argument or debate. That is, for the purpose of the News and Views - debating ideas.
Toyota sells thousands of trucks. Mazda sells almost none. In fact, Toyotas total US sales through July 2003 were 1,072,773 according to Wards Auto. Your link cites full year Toyota fleet sales at 93k. That is less than 10% of the '03 seven month Toyota figure from Wards.
My comment about Toyota sales you claim to debunk was not limited to auto sales, but rather to sales overall.
Moroever, as I point out above, your data distinguishes between commercial and rental fleet sales, but your debunking claim does not.
On both points, the precentages you claim debunk me do not distinguish the reality presented above.
"Accordingly, even though Toyota may sell more cars to rental fleets overall, its percentage of lower profit sales is significantly smaller than Mazda with the 6."
You said cars. Now you're bringing trucks into it when the numbers for cars -- which you specified -- don't help your argument.
But it just so happens I have those figures too. Toyota sold 11,707 trucks to fleets last year -- 1.7 percent of its truck volume. Mazda sold 772 trucks to fleets, or 0.8 percent.
This is a no-win debate, since you keep changing the rules on us. I have work to do.
Meade
The sentence you quoted, the sentence that specified percentages, said Toyota. If I had meant to qualify Toyota I would have.
On the other hand, I did take pains to qualify the fleet sales as Rental, as opposed to Commercial. As I point out above, your figures mix the two. I strenuously assert there are significant difference between rental fleet sales and commercial fleet sales.
The numbers you give for the truck sales help my point anyway. 2% is a rather low number. I would also like to point out in the same post where you say I changed the rules, in succeeding sentences you give Toyota's truck fleet sales percentage of total trucks sold but give Mazda's truck fleet sales percentage of total Mazda's sold. An oversight perhaps?
In any event, the focus on numbers is avoiding the real debate, which is, what happens to Mazda sales when Ford starts making the Fusion. I think we can take for granted that most of Mazda's fleet sales are Mazda6s and MPVs. You can rent Miatas at some outlets, not many. (I've tried). I doubt Mazda is selling many 3s or RX8s to rental companies. Tribute overall sales are so low, there could not be many fleet numbers generated with them.
Enterprise, the largest rental firm out there purchased 85 Mazda3 from us for their hartford market. There was no fleet discount and all the cars are "at risk" cars...
at risk, means there is no buy back guarantee. They must dispose them like any other buyer. They also plan on keeping them until 25K+ miles.
Also, rental car companies do not buy directly from the manufacturer, they buy from dealers just like consumers do. A number of years ago we had the Avis account for Pontiac, they purchased 15,000 vehicles from us that year.
I would have thought the dealers wanted 3s to meet consumer demand.
I am aware that Enterprise does not use buy back contracts as extensively as Hertz and Cendant (parent company of Avis and Budget). At the same time, Enterprise does not yet buy the number of vehicles that Hertz and Cendant buy.
Doesn't Hertz and Cendant negotiate their buyback purchase with a combination of manufacturer and dealer representatives? The buy back clauses would appear to require manufacturer involvement if the vehicles are going to later be sold as certified used. Also, with all the complicated arrangements between dealer and manufacturer I would be surprised to hear that the manufacturer does not provide special incentives for dealerships that sell to the rental companies.
Since Ford plan on continuing to build tha Escape on an improved verion of its current platform, and introduce a new Bronco slotted below it in price and set up more as a real off-roader, I too am curious about what they're going to do with the CD3 based sportwagon, are they going to make it more carlike or more rugged? And what direction will Mazda take with it since they already have a wagon version of the 6, will they replace the North American version of that with something equally carlike but capable of fitting an AWD system and a 3.0 l or 3.5 l V6 wchich the current 6 cannot?
Tom ... it only takes a moment, using Google or a similar search engine, to check your statements before placing them here. I found the following article (from a fleet industry magazine's web site) in less than a minute after reading the above statement from you.
"According to Mazda, fleet sales will contribute a healthy 30% of the Mazda3's total sales, of which 75% will be made up of hatchbacks."
Meade
What's the story?
Meade
I find the detailed discussion around percentage of vehicles sold for rentals and fleets to be boring, self-indulgent and off topic. Sort of a "My mix of opinion and fact is better than your mix of opinion and fact".
When personal pissing contests erupt in forums like these, it is better to take it off line rather than boring the rest of the world to tears.
Speaking for the silent majority, I can tell you that no one cares any longer whcih one of you is right or wrong, we just want you shut your gaping pie holes.
As for the future of Mazda, things look differently North of the border. In Canada, Mazda has always done much better than in the US, especially in Quebec where it is the dominant brand - no, I have no idea why
Little of this debate has been informed with much disussion of future Mazda product plans (Audia8q you are the obvious exception).
It appears that Mazda is looking to add several vehicles to its US line-up to combat the complaint that their vehicles are "too small".
One will be the Lincoln Aviator-based luxury sport utility which will become the marquee offering in the Mazda line-up. I have idea how differentiated it will be from the Aviator, but I have read that Mazda intends it to be quite different in look and feel.
Another will be the next iteration of the Mazda6, which will grow quite considerably I have read. Can Mazda retain the class leading dynamics of this vehicle in a larger package? We will see. Will Mazda offer the new Duratec 35 under the hood? I would guess so but we will see.
The next generation MPV will apparently be based ona stretched Mazda6 platform, which should maintain great handling characteristics, but will likely still leave it trailing in the ridiculously huge size department. Will it finally be big enough to meet the needs of families who don't wish to take power squadron lessons before piloting their Oddesysies and Quests? We will have to wait and see.
So Mazda seems to recognize that some of its vehicles need to grow in size to meet the tastes of US buyers. The question is, can it maintain its zoom zoom image at the same time.
And, most importantly for me, will Canadian buyers be forced to accept these super-sized products by default?
(Yes, I am Canadian despite the fact my goddam flag keeps defaulting back to US all the time - I have given up trying to change it)