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If all I wanted was to google articles, why come to Edmunds in the first place?
I had a first generation Miata (NA) for many years. I sold it and later bought a second generation Miata (NB). While the NB had the better engine and suspension, incidental issues soured me.
First, in the interim between NA and NB, Chicago's Lakeview Mazda sold its real estate to a townhome developer and closed. There are four other Mazda dealers arguably convenient to my Northwest Chicago home. Each of them are, to say the least, near the bottom of the auto dealer customer relations bucket. Experienced a number of improper sales tactics including phantom charges, missing Mulroney, bait and switch, dealers telling me I had to buy add ons like paint protection to keep warranty in place. I did not fall for any of this, but resented like heck that I had to put up with it at all.
While the NB interior looks far better (imo) than the NA, its components are far cheaper. My glovebox and center console latches broke and the threads on the gear shifter handle stripped. One of the latches on the kick plate that covers the wiring under the steering wheel also gave way. Finally, not a flaw per se, but the soft rubber leather look dash material was a real dust magnet. Everytime I drove it with the top down (which was just about all the time) I had to clean the interior.
The exterior paint was also a problem. Living in the city means dings are inevitable. But the Mica Green paint on the Miata while clearly formulated to look good just does not hold up. I have never had so many dings in so short a time on a vehicle (and I've owned some sort of vehicle since I was 16, or more than 20 years ago).
Finally, while I do not expect miracles, the best mileage I ever observed in the NB was 21 mpgs. I averaged 19. For comparison, my NA averaged 23 mpgs. A friend with a Corvetter (and four more massive cylinders) averages 19 mpgs!
All this on a car I sold with just under 7k miles!
Before any jumps on me, and in the interest of fairness, with the exception of a check engine software glitch fixed by recall, the mechanics held up wonderfully. I expect my car will be a much better value to whoever buys it used than it was for me.
Right now I am living the car free life. So far, no complaints. I do expect to have a roadster again. The candiates are: Third generation Miata, Solstice or its Saturn counterpart (if GM makes the Nomad or another Kappa 2+2 I may go for that over the Roadster) or the Smart 2 seater or Dodge Slingshot (if Daimler makes them). If I could ever get over my buy new stigma, I might look at an S2000 or Z4. I would never pay the dollars Honda or BMW gets for those new.
If you wish to engage in a running battle with someone on an obscure point, the polite thing to do is take it off line after, say, the first dozen or so back and forth responses.
Actually, I wonder about this "growing in size is necessary" bit. After all, Ford and Honda are really the only ones to out and out abandon the "tweener" midsize car segment, meaning a small midsize to slot in just above the compact cars and below the "full" midsizers. Chevy still has the Malibu, for instance, while Ford dropped the Contour. But also, considering successful examples like the Subaru Legacy, which is on a global platform and about Mazda6 sized, and the Acura TSX (The rest of the world's Accord, and also similar sized). When you add in the current Mazda6, it appears that maybe, just maybe, Americans are figuring out that it's not the size, it's how you use it.
And with that, I'm gone for the weekend. Have fun kids!
Meade
And Ford learned it from Mazda. Yep, I'd say Mazda's got a REAL bright future, no doubt.
GM went with the Vectra sized Malibu as it had the larger Pontiac G6 (and Malibu Maxx - but that is a niche off shoot) in the wings.
There is no reason why Ford could not have the Mazda6 and Fusion complimented with the larger 500.
What I really want to see are more affordable small rwd 2+2 and hatches. If GM pulls off the Kappa right, it may own a niche market here in the US. Perhaps it will drive BMW and Daimler to finally bring the 1 and A series to NA.
I would also like to see Mazda modify the RX8 platform to accomodate a less expensive but still sporty hatch and coupe with a 4 cyl. ice.
(Finally, Toyota has more or less abandoned the tweener segment. It has the Matrix I guess, but that is a limited option vehicle. Be nice to see a tweener sedan in the T line up)
What you say makes eminent sense from an overall Ford Brand perspective, but each of its business units (Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover) need to be able to stand and succeed on their own two feet.
We must remember that we are talking about, for the most part, independently owned franchised auto dealers who sell the product.
It is of no consolation to a Mazda dealer if the Ford dealer down the road has a product that fills a better selling niche.
Mazda originally projected 80,000 Mazda6 sales in the US at laucnh. To date, while easily outselling the horrible Mazda 626, it has not reached this original target.
No one - much less Mazda - is suggesting that the Mazda6 should sell like an Accord, Camry or even the Altima, but they will want to achieve sales in the 80,000 to 100,000 unite territory over time and will do what they have to do to the car to achieve that.
unlike the other Ford import brands which are luxury, niche or both, Mazda pretty much competes in the mass market.
A Volvo dealer can make a bundle selling a few SCs or even the nice, but pretty pricey V50.
Even if a dealer can sell a Mazda6 at list and with a 5.9% minimum loan, the chance to make big profits on limited numbers is small. That means most Mazdas need to sell decent volumes to succeed.
Needing volume can often lead to compromise. Compromise too much, and the buyer figures why not just go to the more conveniently located Toyota, Ford or Chevy dealer.
Don't know the best solution. Perhaps Mazda could take a page from Chevy's book which offers the smaller than Camry Malibu and the large than Camry Impala. A Mazda 500 is at least an interesting concept to throw around.
I would really like to see a more daily driver type car built on the RX8 platform. Maybe a Mazda's niche could be the small and sporty bunch.
I don't agree with that. I think a manufacturer can compete in fairly mainstream segments and still be a niche player.
Take Subaru for instance. Their products are in very mainstream segements, but their niche is AWD and increasingly performance. Similarly, Mazda's niche is performance and great dynamics. There is a reason why they are repeatedly referred to as the Japanese BMW and their products described as BMWesque.
However, there are some self-evident truths about the American automotive marketplace.
1) Unlike Europeans, Americans equate performance with horsepower. If a car has more horsepower than another then in the vast majority of buyers minds it must "perform" better and be "sportier".
So Mazda must play the horsepower game at least to some extent. As a performance oriented brand, they have to be in the ballpark. I would suggest that this is why the Mazda3 is performing better in its segment than the Mazda6. If the Mazda6 had a 260 horsepower V6 they wouldn't be able to make enough of them to meet demand, even if it hurt the cars overall driving dynamics.
2) Size. Americans keep getting bigger and bigger - not necessarily fatter, but bigger. You need to car that meets this need. Nissan did it with Altima and the results are undeniable.
As someone who strongly prefers smaller cars and "tweeners", I hate this. But that doesn't impact reality.
_______________________________________________
I will be curious to see what impact the MazdaSpeed Mazda6 will have. It should be a simply awesome car and might be the boost Mazda needs to re-kickstart the car. It would also be interesting to see what impact a 270HP Duratec 35 under the hood would have.
In fact, here's a thought. What if the only two Mazda6 models offered were the 276HP AWD twin turbo-charged 2.3L and a 270HP FWD/AWD 3.5L V6?
Toyota builds a tweener in Europe called the Avensis--bigger than a Corolla but smaller than the (imho) somewhat bloated Camry.
The coupe version of the Avensis is now being sold in the US as the Scion TC. If Toyota decides to add a 4 door sedan to the Scion line, the Avensis is very much the logical choice.
As for Mazda's future, I just bought a new 3S sedan. This is just not in the Corolla/Sentra/Civic/ class at all as far as driving dynamics and refinement. I don't think anyone who enjoys driving could fail to put the Mazda 3 quite high on their list once they've actually taken a test drive.
I've worked in the service dept. of a large Toyota dealership for over 30 years, have owned at least 20 different cars in that time and driven just about everything out there. I never even considered a Mazda product though I did lust after an RX-2 back in the early 70s. I was all set to buy a Scion TC or XB when I went out to the Mazda store for a test drive after reading the writeup in CR. 10 minutes behind the wheel of the 3S with manual trans and I had to have it. It really does feel like it ought to cost in the mid-20s instead of the high teens.
If they can get people to drive the damn things they will do fine, but their Fire Sale style of marketing lately is too much like that of Hyundai or Kia.
you must be talking about ford and gm with the fire sale. Did you see the latest incentive on the chevy malibu max to the tune of $5,000.
GM should just get out of the passenger car business with the exception of cadilliac and corvette and concentrate on trucks and suv.
Ford should do the same and hand over the passenger car business to Mazda and concentrate on trucks and suv.
I wouldn't worry too much about the future of Mazda. If any car maker is in deep trouble its mitsubishi not mazda
mdaffron: "So, at least we can debunk one piece of conjecture posted in post 752 yesterday, re: "I believe Toyota limits its total sales to rental fleets to below 10% of total sales.""
You were quoting me here, so I thought I would just clarify something that might have seemed confusing - Toyota limits its OVERALL sales to under 10% fleet. Indeed, as the numbers that have since been provided amply prove, the combined figure for all Toyota sales in 2003 falls (very broadly!) around 8%.
boaz: "The 6 and the 3 are a good sign that the company is still breathing but it isn't time to consider them cured just yet."
You hit it right on the head here. A major player no two-model car company can be! You have to wonder what you are doing wrong if your company cannot sell more of its (newer design) minivans than the Montana, for goodness' sake! Trucks, where are we? One good crossover - the Tribute. Easily room for two there - the sport crossover coming next should do that hopefully. And what about a properly big car, perhaps even one with some sport to it, to go head to head with all the "regular" midsize cars and be even a little bigger? The comparison in total sales to Kia is illuminating - Mazda should be doing better. Not that they compete directly, because Kia has the bargain end of the spectrum, but Kia's own spot in the American market is still fairly marginal, so it is not a good sign that Mazda's sales are at the same level.
jrosasmc: yup, I had an '88 NA RX-7 for a while. There was just nothing like that car for getting on freeway ramps and such - it felt like it didn't even have a redline, and just kept speeding up with a whoosh - felt a little like it was jet-powered or something. Of course, it also drank through a noticeable amount of oil, had miserable fuel economy, and whoa! Tears were shed every time smog check anniversaries came around! Not to mention it had that cute little quirk of all the 13bs back then (and I believe the, what, 12A's before them?) that if you started it up cold, moved it 100 yards, and shut it down, it flooded itself and couldn't be started again the next time without getting under the hood and messing around. But it was a ton of fun - eventually crashed and totalled by a nephew I lent it to for a while as a college car. Never have had any other Mazdas in all my time, but had a friend with a fairly crappy and problematic 323 in the early 90s, and almost almost bought a Mazda3 hatch last time out (early this year).
logic: Daimler seems pretty committed to their course of NOT bringing the Mercedes A-class over here (and now that I have seen the pics, I can't blame them - outrageous) but that if the A3 sells well enough, they may bring a so-called B-class over here, of which I know little. And as to the RX8, I would personally prefer to see Mazda bring out a 2-seat RX like those of yore, with the same powertrain including the manual, maybe for the same price as the 2+2 automatic goes for now. (and maybe with less gadgetry - more of a pure sport coupe)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Some are into hp as performance (so too are many Europeans - witness the Daimler- AMG/BMW - M hp wars) others have different criteria.
You mention BMW. The 3-Series has been one of the most popular performance car buys in the US for years.
BMW's popularity underscores a US preference bias for RWD. If you keep putting HP in the Mazda6, trust me, you will have many people questioning whether the car will just become another exercise in torque steer.
This perception bedevils Saab. Even though Saab appears to have conquered torque steer fairly well with the new 9-3, there are very few people willing to pop the $ for an Aero mainly because it is FWD.
Again, I think if Mazda wants to carve out a performance niche, a somewhat more civilized 2+2 or even a hatch on the RX8 platform would be quite an eye opener (but lose the gas and oil thirsty renesis in favor of a nice 4)
as long as Mazda can stay in black and keep building cars that only Mazda can make, they will be fine. Big marketshare? that's up to Ford to do.
I don't think the plan is to make mazda a huge volume company with a full product line, like Toyota....but remember, 30 years ago everyone was laughing at two pipsqueek car companies called Honda and Toyota and Oldsmobile was one of the best selling brands in the country...
BMW makes one - albeit you have to go to Europe to own it.
The RX-8 is not selling in the US anywhere near what Mazda hoped it would. I do not know how it is doing in Europe or Japan. It would have to be doing gangbusters to recover lost development costs in face of lackluster US sales.
Seems to me such a vehicle would fit Mazda's profile wonderfully. GM will make a Kappa hatch. I suspect BMW will eventually bring the 1 hatch here as well. Mazda making one would not be being like everybody, but rather being like a select few.
It is more expensive than ever to design and develop cars. Ford cannot afford to be patient with Mazda if it is not bringing decent return on investment.
More likely, there will be additional contraction of the market. I cannot see Mitsubishi or Fiat hanging on much longer. Hyundai made a multi-billion dollar gamble on its US market share continuing as it had over the last few years making that huge plant in the US. Now its NA sales are softening. There was an article in Forbes a while back where the author even speculated VW may retreat from some of its markets if it continues as it has recently.
After 6 trips to the dealer in the first 7 months / 6K miles & the horrible treatment by Mazda (corporate) customer service I have a hard time seeing myself every buying another Mazda.
It would sure take a lot more than a $500 owner loyalty bribe.
I can see Mitsubishi and Isuzu throwing in the towel, and maybe even VW. I also wouldn't be surprised if Ford kills off Mercury, and GM is forced to eliminate another division, or at least combine Buick, Pontiac and GMC.
Where these trends will leave a niche player such as Mazda is anybody's guess.
"Their attempts to be like everyone else failed miserably because they lost their brand identity (do i have to mention why Millenia and 626, and even the 2nd gen Protege did so poorly?)"
I agree, Mazda doesn't need to be Toyota. However, as the globalization of the car industry continues apace, sales do need to increase to keep pace with the market, and there is no reason Mazda couldn't have a couple more models to bring in more sales. The Millennia - what was that? Some pricey luxury cruiser? What was Mazda ever doing putting that out there? It doesn't fit the mission of the company, and was priced way higher than the money people expected to pay for a Mazda. The 626? Mazda's attempt to build a 9/10 Camry, that missed by a mile. Again, why? There is precious little "zoom zoom" about a Camry, so why try to build one? Worse yet, a SMALLER one?
Plus, if not a large sporty car (think Acura TL, only the Mazda should be RWD), how about a small coupe built off the Miata platform? Or merely a powered-up coupe and hatch version of the Mazda3? Something with a serious power-to-weight ratio.
Plus, as the 3 climbs the price charts, how about another small-sized volume model to cater to the under-$15K crowd? Of course, if they built the midsize RWD sport sedan I am advocating, they could also use the platform as the basis for a larger SUV, which would probably sell well. Or they could borrow the Explorer (as they did in the early 90s with the Mazda Navajo) and seriously sport it up, sell it as their own for a while. A minimal investment to see if the buyers are out there for that sort of thing.
And the MPV has NEVER hit in sales, even with the current model that they finally seemed to get just right. This is a segment where emulation of the competition pays good dividends, and sport is not highly valued. Mazda must either learn that lesson or get out entirely.
Whew! there is so much to be done! And now is the time, while they are riding the momentum of the brisk sales of the 3.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yesterday test drove an RX-8 automatic and was impressed with the tranny shift points, which made the low-torque motor move the car. Ultimately, I came away really liking the originality and execution of the car. In the showroom, the Sepang Green 6 wagon with sport package was compelling, made more so by that strong leather aroma (one doesn't smell Honda leather in case you're wondering).
Outstanding products, I say. Based on earlier posts about poor customer service, it's obvious what's left for Mazda to do is to make CS as good as its cars.
Note where it says it's Mazda's newest "global vehicle" ...
Meade
That said, I'm probably not the target audience for this car, so take that with a grain of salt. Not sure there will be a huge market for this car. Kind of a "tweener"
Look at it again and re-read the description.
Meade
I'll bet it's gonna get confusing in Mazda dealerships in the coming months.
I can hear it now ...
"We got 9 new 8's yesterday, and we sold 20 3's last week; we have special 0.0 financing on the 6; which reminds me -- get two guys to move those 10 3's over to where the 6's are now so we can make room for the 5's."
Hee hee ...
Meade
While it isn't said outright, I do see a hint of a North American possibility in the statement, "Four powertrains will be offered to satisfy diverse global needs-two gasoline engines and, developed specifically for European markets, two versions of a common-rail turbo diesel engines."
Mazda doesn't usually offer that many powertrains just for the E.U. and the Orient.
Meade
This can be the new "sporty" MPV, followed shortly by a stretched version "maxi-mini" van. SOmething for everyone.
IIRC, the next Freestar (nee Windstar) from Ford is going to be based on a stretched Mazda6 platform, so it seems reasonable that mazda can have a version too. Maybe not as long, but if the 5 is covering the modest size market, the new one can go after the full size crowd.
Lets see, the 2 (hyundai fighter), 3 (premium compact), 6 (mid size mainstreamer), 5 (compact van), new MPV (large van), RX8, Miata, next tribute and premium larger crossover (Freestyle clone?). Add that up, and you have a pretty complete line-up available soon.
Plus, the 2 lets the 3 slide upmarket slightly (basically covers the strippo end), so the 6 can have a growth spurt since the 3 covers the bottom end, and other than a premium larger sedan (which can be a model of ht eexpanded 6) and some hot rods (hello, Mazdaspeed 3 and 6), something for everybody.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Well, the 2 only just came out. Let's give it some time. I'd think now that the Mazda3 is so large for a compact*, it might be high time to bring the 2 into the U.S. as an Aveo basher!
Meade
* There was a new 3 sedan parked between a fairly new Jetta and a BMW 5-series at the restaurant I had dinner at last Friday night. It amazed me, seeing the 3 amid other cars for the first time, how big the 3 really was. It dwarfed the Jetta and had nearly the same footprint, but was a little taller than, the BMW. No kidding; I walked around the car for a few minutes droo---- er, comparing.
http://www.whatcar.com/News_Article.asp?NA_ID=210719
Meade
as for the Mazda2, is there really a market for a subcompact 4 door in the US?
The Aveo IS selling, the Focus ZX3 sells well, and Honda is deadly serious about bringing the subcompact Fit here next year.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Five words:
Echo
Accent
Rio
Aveo
Scion
Five words and not an "M" anywhere. We need an "M" in there.
Meade
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Seems the market's ripe for the pickin'! Thanks for your supportive post!
Meade
Ford makes money on the ZX3 because the design - and accordingly the tooling needed to produce it are very old and have long since amortized.
The Accent, Rio and Aveo are all made in Korea where labor is cheaper than in Japan and the US. With the Aveo, GM had the added advantage of getting the modern Daewoo factories at less than half their build out costs. Anything GM makes selling the Daewoo designed and tooled Aveo is gravy.
I'm not sure how Toyota can afford to sell the Echo in the US. But I bet Toyota makes very little profit on it.
Toyota has the profits from Lexus to cover its losses on the Echo. Mazda does not have the same luxury.
They've been importing the Protege from Hiroshima since it came to the U.S. in 1990, and the Mazda3 comes from there too.
Meade
The better reference point would be the Suzuki Japanese made sub-compacts. Suzuki has never bothered federalizing them because there was no profitable way to bring them here.
The Protege and Mazda3 are probably sold on very tight profit margins as it is. Labor and tooling for the smaller cheaper M2 will not be much less than the M3. Meaning profit margins become so razor thin Mazda apparently does not even want to bother trying.
If Mazda thought it was worth bringing M2s over here, no doubt it would. It isn't. I suggest money is the reason why.
I posted the "locked in" product line up for N.A. a few posts back...Their plate is rather full but they could slip something in and surprise us all!! My only concern is costs. It cost mazda $100 million to launch the MZ6...I don't know if they have the funds to introduce a brand new product line, right now.
Mazda dealers are pushing mazda for products that have larger profit margins. Mazda dealers can not build the image and stand alone dealerships that the factory wants based on small car margins.
There are three problems with the 10k product.
One, the low price does not give the dealer a whole lot to work around for profits.
Two, this is not a big piece of the overall market.
And, three, in spite of one and two, there is a fair amount of competition already in place.
What is on your wish list audi8q? That is, if you can share here.
Every major mfg selling vehicles in Europe and Asia builds at least one model, some several to compete in this class and none of them has ever made it to the US, with the possible exception of stuff like the previously mentionned Nissan Axxess and some of the Mitsubishi versions sold here in the early to mid 80s by Chrysler as "Dodge Colt Vistas".
Certainly no manufacturer is currently under the impression that this mini-mini-van class of vehicle stands a snowball's chance in hell of selling in the US, which is why we don't see them.
TOKYO (AFX) - Mazda Motor Corp plans to roll out new models designed to entice US drivers as it seeks to bolster its operations there, which sank into the red last fiscal year, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported, without citing sources.
For the first time in the US market, Mazda will introduce as early as the beginning of 2005 the Mazda 5, a fully remodeled version of its compact Premacy minivan.
The automaker is positioning the Mazda 5 as a global product, and US sales are an integral part of this strategy, the report said.
The fifth-largest Japanese carmaker, which is affiliated with Ford Motor Co, will also launch a sports model of its flagship Attenza sedan, called the Mazda6, in the US, the newspaper said.
Mazda expects US sales to jump 10 pct to 300,000 units for this fiscal year and hopes the new models will pique customer interest, the report added.
kyoko.hasegawa@xinhuafinance.com
kh/wpf
Meade