Mazda - Does it have a good future in US?

groovypippin

Put a Honda badge on it.

andyman73

Ha ha..(sounds like the school bully from Simpsons tv show)

gee35coupe

And add a sunroof.

Actually my car-of-the-moment is a Nissan Titan.

nippononly

is that 6-speed auto in the Mazda6 the one Ford is putting in all its vehicles this year? As in, the EXACT same one? Echoes of the mid-90s 626s are banging around in my head...ouch!

seminole_kev

that 6-speed auto that Ford is using is a Japanese Aisin unit. Not a FoMoCo unit.

PF_Flyer

Great subject for the chat tonight. Stop in and we can go over the list in more detail!

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newcar31

"Who does? Not quite the same market as the 3 is it? Totally different priorities when it comes to the stereo. Especially the kind in the 6/3 that has the readout separate from the headunit."

The Taurus had a readout separate from the headunit. Totally different priorities when it comes to the stereo? Yeah, I agree, the 3 owner is MORE likely to replace the stereo.

If they had kits for that Taurus, they'll have kits for the 3, if they don't already. They have them for the 6.

npaladin2000

"If they had kits for that Taurus, they'll have kits for the 3, if they don't already."

"They" do. "They" is Metra, and the part number is 99-7504. I've seen it online for under $30.

gee35coupe

http://caraudiomag.com/specialfeatures/0408cae_oem_07_z.jpg
Gonna replace that with this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=32812&- amp;item=5720484407#ebayphotohosting
Guess if you want to change the total look of the dash. That's fine.

Looks like you take out 75% of the center stack for a DIN receiver swap. That may be alright to you for this argument, but many will find that unacceptable.

stickguy

Can't you just add an external amp and new speakers, and keep the origianl CD player and tuner, and get a nice upgrade in sound?

Maybe some people are pickier than I am, but I have noticed that in recent years, the factory systems in most cars have improved tremendously.

Still, given the fact that the target market for the 3 is likely to include a fair number of people that do like to upgrade, the unique system Mazda uses wasn't the best idea. It does look neat however.

newcar31

"Looks like you take out 75% of the center stack for a DIN receiver swap. That may be alright to you for this argument, but many will find that unacceptable."

Oh well, I guess you don't need to buy one then, because the Civic is a much better car. Yeah.

I just think the things you come up with to criticize the Mazda3 are hilarious.

You're so predictable. You never criticize Honda, even though Honda does some of the same things that Mazda does, but you only criticize Mazda.

Go out in your garage and take a look at your Accord's head unit. Easy to replace without changing the look of the dash? No, but I won't hear you talking about that.

Would a plastic radiator support keep you from buying a Honda if it had one? Hell no. You'd turn it into a positive.....Honda is so smart...saving money and weight with the plastic radiator support...bla bla bla....Ford sucks....Mazda resale value sucks...Honda sells more....Duratrash....bla bla bla...

Same ole, Same ole.

nippononly

shucks.

Neighbor down the street just bought a 3s hatch in white - loves it - is washing it about every three days! Looks nice in that color. :-)

How come the rear wheels of the 3 seem to get so blackened with brake dust, but not the fronts? I have seen several in this condition, and my neighbor's new car is rapidly joining the group.

gee35coupe

I loved the Madaspeed 6...Til I found out no sunroof. Deadly omission for a "tuner" car. Wait and see.

I haven't said anything about Honda here. You have.

The things I "come up" with to critcise, are valid concerns. I heard several people at the Atlanta car show saying the same things.

I don't criticise Honda? Check the Accord forum. We just dumped our indecisive auto EX-L for a 5 speed. Hated the Accord 5 speed auto. But then we hated the V6 auto in our previous coupe.

As far as the stereo in the Accord. Sorry, once again a different market. But we have no need to change it. I LOVE the XM and it sounds fine. Much better than the previous Accord's stereo.

Again though, check the title of the thread. This ain't no Honda thread. Why would I say anything about Honda here?

newcar31

"The things I "come up" with to critcise, are valid concerns."

And I don't agree that they're valid, especially the plastic radiator support and the fabric on the seats. You wouldn't buy one because of a plastic radiator support? Please. You don't like the head unit in the 3/6 but you bought an Accord with the same problem? Come on.

Wanting a bigger engine in a Civic than a 1.7L, now THAT is a valid concern. The plastic radiator support in the Mazda3 seems insignificant in comparison.

gee35coupe

The head unit in the 6 sucks though. Although I didn't really talk about it. Many 6 owners have complained about the sound. Even in the BOSE version. Once again, not gonna get into a Honda vs. Mazda thing. No matter how fun.

A bigger engine in the Civic would be nice. But not for discussing here.

stickguy

Might be a good thing that the MS 6 doesn't have a moonroof. I was starting to get real interested in it, and that right now would probably be a bad thing.

Time to wander over to CCBA for some therapy (it's been 3 months...)

Truly idiotic move not putting the roof in that car. This isn't cheap wheels going out to the youth set (that probably want one anyway). It will be a cut-rate option to the S60R, and likely will be more "mature" people buying one, that still want some luxury. Speaking for myself, of course..

At least Mazda sees consistent. Excellent products, dismal marketing/packaging decisions.

gee35coupe

With the new availability of Sirius radio and a roof the MS6 would be Nirvana on wheels.

newcar31

"The head unit in the 6 sucks though. Although I didn't really talk about it."

But you did talk about it:

"Especially the kind in the 6/3 that has the readout separate from the headunit."

The head unit sucks? I don't even have the Bose and the head unit is just fine for me. I wish there was a little more treble in back, but I don't ride back there, and that doesn't really have anything to do with the head unit anyway.

"I LOVE the XM and it sounds fine."

Good for you. What about the people who don't like ANY factory system? They don't buy Accords right? Different market? I know people like that, and they're just as SOL with an Accord as they would be with the 3/6 if they absolutely have to have a stock looking interior.

"With the new availability of Sirius radio and a roof the MS6 would be Nirvana on wheels."

Don't kid yourself. As long as there was a Mazda badge anywhere on the car, you'd still find something wrong with it.

nippononly

mdaffron

Geesh -- I'm away for three days and 51 posts show up. This is in response to the thing about plastic radiator supports.

Guys, why does plastic (nylon really) mean bad? My 1992 Protege LX was at 83,000 trouble-free miles when I traded it, "plastic" radiator support and all. My current car, a 2000 Protege ES that just so happens to have 83,300 miles on it, also has a "plastic" radiator support. This car likewise has been 100 percent reliable.

Funny, my house is clad in "plastic" -- and this "plastic" has become the universal replacement for aluminum. More durable, handles temperature fluctuations better, doesn't corrode. Think about it.

Meade

mdaffron

There are a LOT of us out here who are "30 something" or higher, who have outgrown the "tuner" urge (yes, we did ONCE have it) and have no desire at all to buy a car just to pull out the radio, dissect the suspension and slap a three-foot-tall Cessna rear stabilizer on the trunk. I guess if the radio is such a sticky point with some of you, don't buy the car. But if you've looked in a few new car windows lately, this "all-in-one" dash design ain't just a Mazda thing.

(Just not 100 percent sure what this subject has to do with Mazda's future in the U.S.)

Meade

andre1969

is that it's a relatively new technology, considering some of the things they're using it for in cars, and perhaps it hasn't completely gotten past the troubleprone stage yet.

In the past, other new technologies, such as V-8 engines, timing belts, automatic transmissions, overdrive, power windows, unitized construction, use of aluminum, FWD, computers, emissions controls, and use of plastic all started off being less reliable/durable than the "tried and true" things they replaced. But, with research and testing, and constant improvement, those new things often ended up being better than what they replaced. Unfortunately, perceptions linger for longer than reality. I think plastic might still be in that in-between stage. It still gets a bad rap, but the reality is that it's good for a lot more than we might give it credit for.

stickguy

Well, if you want to get rid of "new" technologies, lets go back to wood frames. Isn't that what was used before all steel became the norm?

I tend to be more concerned about how things work, and not how it was accomplished. I'm guessing that Mazda engineers know what they are doing, and wouldn't use a new design or technology (or material) unless they were confident it would do the job. They don't want the radiators falling out of the car any more than the owner.

Besides, most people probably don't know how to open the hood (and if they do, they don't anyway). There could be a hamster wheel under there and they wouldn't know, as long as there was a "300 HP" sticker on the window.

OT, mazda just needs to keep making good products that are well received be reviewers, and they will continue to pick up sales and stay viable. They won't become Toyota or Honda most likely, but they can do fine as they are, a larger niche player (like Subaru).

andre1969

after all, that's how things improve...people and companies take risks and experiment. Often, their early attempts might fail, but with preseverance, they learn from their mistakes and really make the new technologies work.

As for an upper radiator support, if all it really has to do is hold the radiator in place, plastic might not be a bad choice. With older cars, the upper support was thick metal because it was actually part of a bulkhead that held the car together. It just happened to double as a radiator support.

And, if it's done right, who cares? It's kinda like those plastic intake manifolds that are common in cars nowadays. GM tends to have problems with the 3.1/3.4 and, to a lesser degree, the 3.8 intake manifolds leaking. Actually, wasn't that a problem with the Northstar and its variants, too? I think Ford also had some problems on its 4.6 V-8's. But, I'd imagine that most, if not all cars use a plastic intake manifold these days. But not all of them are experiencing problems. So it's not necessarily the material itself, but how its used and engineered.

newcar31

"I'm guessing that Mazda engineers know what they are doing, and wouldn't use a new design or technology (or material) unless they were confident it would do the job. They don't want the radiators falling out of the car any more than the owner."

EXACTLY!!! But hearing some people in here, you'd think Mazda did it strictly for cost cutting and only because of Ford's evil influence.

You know, Mazda really doesn't care if the radiator falls out of the car. I'm surprised they didn't just use paper mache or cardboard for the radiator support, because all they're really interested in is cost reduction, right?

gee35coupe

carguy58 Oct 9, 2004 4:07pm

The gist of the orginal post was why are sales falling. Not what a terrible radiator support. Heck Saturn builds it's cars with plastic body panels.

I fully realize that "some" people like the stereo. Some people like the seat fabric. And "some" people don't even look under the hood. But "some" people buy a 3 simply because they don't want a Civic/Corrolla.

If Mazda wants to conquer the market and seriously increase sales over what the 2002 Protege(the last full year of Protege sales) did, they are gonna have to bring it. And while the 3 looks grand from afar, on closer inspection it's a letdown compared to the Protege.

nippononly

is a lot less "raw" than the Protege - lots of the driving experience gets isolated from the driver in the newer model. For most people though, that is a good thing. Nothing about this car stands out as a "letdown" to my eye.

More importantly, when you compare it to the Civic, the Focus, or especially the Corolla, it makes a mighty attractive package, certainly more so than the Protege did to the old Civic and Corolla.

stickguy

consumer's reports really seemed to like it, although it doesn't seem that sales exploded right after that issue came out. Still, nice to see the good pub.

gee35coupe

Great press that didn't translate to the showroom. Heck even I loved the 6. But I also got a lot of flak for saying why I had the feeling it wouldn't be a sales success in the 6 room.

At this point in the game, there is a reason why the Accord is the Accord, and the Camry is the Camry. It's natural selection at work. The Taurus tried to think out of the box and became a rental car. The Accord appeals to the "sporty" family set. The Camry appeals to the "cushy" family set. And even the Altima carved out a niche by being bigger with sporty intentions with the highest hp numbers.

The 6 came to market as a "sports sedan" which would have been great if they didn't have all those very unsporty looking base 6i's on the lot with those ugly hubcaps. Very unsporty.

We'll see though. Next year will be the test. The pipeline should be full and the product should be there.

Mazdaspeed 6 with no roof though. Not even as an option. That's wacky in a near 30K car.

nippononly

just as a gentle reminder, that if Accord is the "sporty" family car, its best-selling trim level (the LX) also has plastic wheel covers like those base Mazda6's.

I am all for smaller cars, but I have to concede that Americans expect their midsize cars to be larger and with more space inside than the Mazda6. I think that is the most likely reason for its slow start, and middling sales today. It does not help that the 3 is quite big for a compact, and the two models are close in size, especially on the inside (perceptually speaking).

My biggest reason for wanting Mazda6's to FLY off the lots is that they made a V6-manual combo available for this model, and that combo sold so quickly there was an initial shortage of them. Toyota does not seem like it will ever do this, Honda does it only in a $28K loaded-to-the-hilt coupe, and the Americans seem to have foresworn manuals in midsizers altogether. So kudos to Mazda (also Subaru for the same reason) and more power to you! :-)

gee35coupe

Mazda said "sports" with a "s".

The difference between the old MX6 and the last gen RX7. No hubcapped RX7's after they got serious on that last RX.

I agree though about the manual with a V6. But folk just ain't buying them. We should be thankful we still get em in the 4 cylinder cars. But I'll be the first to admit that seems to be an Edmunds thing.

My EX-L Accord 5 speed was built in January and I bought it in July. Not much demand.

andre1969

to be sporty? I thought they pretty much left that image behind with the '03 redesign, instead growing up full-blown into the midsize family sedan aura. That, and the fact that the current Camry seems much more radical than the previous model (IMO at least), that the Accord just doesn't seem to have the sporty edge to it that it did in the past. But then, cars like the Altima and Mazda6 seem to be going more for the sport sedan aura than the models they replaced.

seminole_kev

I'm glad someone else said it. To me the Accord has become a quality Oldsmobile.

If I were to think sporty midsize sedan today I would think:

Mazda 6
Subaru Legacy GT
Nissan Altima
Maybe the Pontiac G6 but I don't know much about that one yet.

andre1969

about the Legacy. For some reason, the Legacy has been slipping below my radar for quite some time now. Probably because I sat in one years ago, it felt cramped, seemed expensive for what it was, end of story. And I don't think they really changed the Legacy much over the years, at least until just very recently.

Another one I forgot about was the VW Passat, which IMO is probably one of the original midsized sporty sedans. I used to think of the Maxima as a sporty sedan too, but it always seemed much more upscale to me, kind of a "near luxury" Nissan, along the lines of the old Toyota Cressida.

nippononly

I have driven both the 4-cylinder Accord EX and Camry SE, and to the seat of my pants they were about equally sporty, so I agree with you there. Now, the Camry LE/XLE is MUCH more cushy, totally non-sport, so the Accord LX would beat it on the "sport" count by a small margin.

Don't discount the new Legacy! Bigger than before, now with the turbo 250 hp flat four and a manual transmission. Handling feels very different from the other sporty midsize sedans though because of the AWD.

IMO Maxima and Passat are both overpriced, the Maxima significantly so, but they are decent cars in their own right. Not my first choice for sport.

Can't wait for the head-to-head between the MazdaSport 6 and the Altima SE-R! And still Honda and Toyota stay out of this game. I wonder if the MS6/SE-R/Legacy GT will sell well...

seminole_kev

Andre - well I'm now going to disagree with you. So there! ;-) I just don't see the Passat as sporty. In fact, out of their current lineup, they don't have any cars that I'd consider sporty. Even the meanest GTi is a fat little piggy. When I drove the Passat a couple of times, it struck me as a nice, competent cruiser (and a good one at that) but nothing about it said "sporty" to me. Not really that nimble or sharp handling to me.

andre1969

maybe the Passat just has me fooled, then? Oh well, at least I'm not fooled by the "sport" badging on my co-worker's Grand Caravan! ;-)

jrosasmc

What will the new '06 Miata be like when it arrives? Will it be cushier, faster, etc?

autonomous

Considering recent trends in the US and beyond does no one think that Mazda should be moving into the hybrid field more quickly?

When will the experiment with the hybrid RX8 and Ford's hybrid Escape translate into efforts to make a hybrid Mazda3, for example? Not just
a hybrid, a hybrid that performs.

Does anyone think that lowering the weight of future cars makes sense? Imagine if instead of adding 200 pounds as the Mazda3 did to the Protege5 instead it subtracted it. Wouldn't that help not only fuel efficiency but also handling and consequently driving excitement?

In ten years from now, who will be driving a six cylinder or a turbo?
Ten years may appear far off until you realize the industry's lengthy development period means key decisions have to be made sooner rather than later. Mazdaspeed, are you listening?

newcar31

"No hubcapped RX7's after they got serious on that last RX."

I don't recall ever seeing an RX7 with wheel covers.

When did they come with wheel covers?

newcar31

Has anyone seen an RX7 with factory wheel covers?

I'd hate to believe people are pulling things out of thin air. Not on Edmunds....

vooch

I wonder how on earth the 350z sells with no sunroof.

heel2toe

I know there is probably a more specific "sunroof" topic laying around here somewhere, but honestly, I just...don't...get...it. I have a sunroof in my present (six years and counting) daily driver, and I've had the thing open maybe five times. I bought it because I really wanted traction control and a power seat, but would *gladly* have taken a pass...

John

nippononly

would not be without a sunroof. I use it almost every day, and I love it. I wouldn't consider a car that did not have a factory roof available.

Now my truck? there it's OK not to have a sunroof.

newcars' right, there has never been an RX-7 with wheel covers - blecch! Way back when, the early 80s cars came either with bare steel wheels or alloys. But no hubcaps, no way. That's another thing my daily drive would never have - wheel covers. Cheap plastic crap (the way 99% of them are made these days) to fall off somewhere and leave the car looking crappy. What ever happened to bare steel wheels? At some point they fell out of favor except on base-model pick-ups, but they are easier and cheaper for the manufacturer to do than to include wheel covers, I am sure. And to me they look better as well. Alloys being best.

Will Mazda ever develop a hybrid powertrain? Methinks, no. Would it ever license Toyota's system or borrow one from Ford once it truly has evolved its own? Now that is much more likely. Mazda's overall fleet is pretty safe though in terms of meeting fuel economy standards. It doesn't have a lot of large vehicles.

newcar31

"there has never been an RX-7 with wheel covers - blecch!"

I thought so. Mazda has always been relatively serious with the RX7. I don't like wheel covers either, although I don't think that's the difference between getting "serious" or not with a car. The RX7 has always been a sports car. Even in the early years, with seemingly little horsepower, it was still competitive with cars like the Corvette and people still use those early cars to this day for grassroots racing. Mazda was building SPORTS cars when Honda's sportiest offering was a CVCC Civic.

andre1969

I think it might just depend on the wheelcover. I've seen some plastic wheelcovers that are attractive, and some require a double-take to realize they're just plastic and not alloy wheels. I think the wheelcovers on my '00 Intrepid, a "twisted star" pattern, I think it's called, look better than the alloys that were available on Intrepids at the time. And hiding under those plastic wheelcovers are beefy 16x7" steel rims, so it's not like an alloy or sporty steel rim is the be-all and end-all of what makes or breaks a car. Back in 2000, a lot of equivalent models only rode on 6 or 6.5" wide rims, even when they were alloys.

gee35coupe

could be had with steel wheels. I'm sorry I said "hubcaps". (I guess when you have people picking out slight nuances of every post you'd think they would get the gist) And not particularly nice ones either. I had a friend in high school that bought a new strippo one. Didn't even have a cassette player. A far cry from the base last gen RX7 with the twin turbo screamer. No steel wheels there.

I wouldn't think anyone here would think the Accord is "sporty" but yet think the base 6 has "character". But the fact of the matter is that in any magazine review or in the general public many people think of the Accord as the sportier alternative to the Camry.

Obviously we are in a different demographic here on Edmunds since we all want a 5 speed V6 which doesn't sell worth a flip in the real world.

Check the last paragraph for the hybrid Accord..
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/honda/accord/100452039/roadtestar- - - ticle.html?articleId=103272&tid=edmunds.h..wkedmunds.firstdri- - - ve.1g.*

And in the sedan comparison test the specifically mentioned the steering and powertrain as being near the best in the test. "if you are looking for a sports sedan this ain't it....it doesn't get better than this".

I sat in a SE-R this weekend. Very nice ride. But I don't see 1000 a month without hefty discounts. The Altima already has a penchant for torque steer, that's just what the doctor ordered...more power. But it can be had loaded and with a roof. That right there makes it more of a match for me than the MS6.

newcar31

"I guess when you have people picking out slight nuances of every post you'd think they would get the gist"

But it wasn't a slight nuance. You were trying to make the point that you can't take the Mazda6 seriously because the base models come with hubcaps. To make your point, you said that it wasn't until mazda got "serious" with the RX7 that there were no more hubcapped RX7s.

"Didn't even have a cassette player. A far cry from the base last gen RX7 with the twin turbo screamer. No steel wheels there."

Yes, a far cry from the twin turbo RX7, and it has NOTHING to do with having a cassette player or steel wheels. Likewise, an old Supra is a far cry from the most recent twin turbo Supra. An old Vette is a far cry from the new Z06 Vette. A Civic CVCC is a far cry from a new Civic Si. And so on, and so on.

gee35coupe

Oh I'm sorry I said hubcaps. I guess Mazda didn't even bother to put hubcaps on the steel wheels. Is that better? Geez.

newcar31

My point is what is your point?

A base Mazda6 comes with hubcaps. So what? Is that better?

Geez.