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It's not because it has hubcaps?
So, you're saying the hubcaps are keeping it from being a sports sedan?
What if you replaced the stock michelins with really grippy tires, and had more than respectable handling #s, but it still had hubcaps? Afterall, there's no difference in the suspension of the sport package cars vs. the base models. It's just the tires.
Is the lack of a sunroof going to keep you from calling the Mazdaspeed6 a sports sedan?
How about we all agree to disagree and move on to more important things....Like how big a "fin" has to be to make a car sporty or somthing ;-)
No, not yet. I'm really interested about this hubcap thing.
According to Gee, I could go out and buy a Buick Century with hubcaps, and as long as I replaced those hubcaps with some lightweight alloys and some sticky, grippy tires, I'd have myself a "sports sedan". Right?
The difference between an old RX7 and the twin turbo RX7 are steel wheels and a cassette player. Right?
The MZ6 is gonna be a great sport sedan. But if Mazda was truly trying to hit the target, the ommission of the roof is gonna hurt it at that price point. Very few true "sport sedans" are sold sans roof.
But again...We'll see.
"According to Gee, I could go out and buy a Buick Century with hubcaps, and as long as I replaced those hubcaps with some lightweight alloys and some sticky, grippy tires, I'd have myself a "sports sedan". Right?"
Not necessarily...But if you take the 17 inch wheels and aero package off a Mazda6 you have a great Hertz rental car. Just like a Buick Century.
If you went way back in time, to, say, 1973, it would have been easy to say what was a sport sedan and what wasn't. First off, very few sedans back then were sporty, as that was usually reserved for coupes. So basically, on the domestic front, about all there was, was the Pontiac Grand Am. 4-doors (although most Grand Ams were sold as coupes), 400 cubic inches standard, bucket seats and a floor shift (a manual tranny was available as well). Stiffer suspension, availability of incredibly upgraded brakes (which SHOULD have been standard!). Much more aggressive styling than a LeMans. Tachometer. Honeycomb Rally Wheels. There was a world of difference between a Grand Am and a LeMans.
In contrast, you could get plenty of midsized cars back then with monstrous engines. Torinos and Montegos with 460's, Satellites and Coronets with 440's, Chevelle sedans with 454's and Century, LeMans, and Cutlass sedans with their appropriate 455's. However, in those other sedans, those mammoth engines were relatively low-suds designs...basically they just took a low-revving engine out of an Electra, Grand Ville, New Yorker, or Marquis, put it in a smaller car, and it was quicker by virtue of being lighter. But not quicker because it was any more high performance, or anything.
Now true, there were high-output versions of those engines, but they rarely went in a sedan. They were reserved for the Gran Sports, the Cutlass 4-4-2/Hursts, the Roadrunner and Charger R/Ts, etc. About the only sedans they went in were police cars.
But nowadays, just about all cars have buckets and a console, styled wheels (just alloy insead of steel), tachs, etc. So what was once rare in 1973 is now a common everyday occurrence, so it takes a little something extra to make a sport sedan. Maybe there should be a sub-classification called "sporty sedan"?
Bigger engine and interior I will give you.
I agree with Andre though. There really seem to be 3 classes of sub-full size cars now, since the old large compacts (Accord, Camry, Altima) became bloated.
Compact (Civic, etc.)
mid-size (6, legacy(?), and others that get derided for being too small)
Large (CamCord, Altima)
Full Size (Impala, Crown vic, etc.).
Now, if Mazda gets a version of the Ford 500, with the 3.5l engine and a serious handling upgrade (making it a true "sports" sedan), and of course a stick, then the 6 can fill its role as bigger/nicer than the compacts, but not overgrown.
Not everyone needs something large enough to carry the starting front court of the Knicks in the back seat.
New slogan for the 6: the mama bear car.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
In contrast, the Mazda6 comes in at a tighter 96+15, for a total of 111 cubic feet, barely qualifying it as a midsize. Chances are you won't miss that foot of trunk space if it's packaged well, but those 6-7 cubic feet of interior are gonna be crucial to taller drivers, or people who regularly use the back seat.
Cars like the Ford Taurus, Chevy Impala, and Dodge Intrepid are just barely over the line, around 121-122 cubic feet.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Mazda6:
Length: 186.8 in.
Width: 70.1 in.
Height: 56.7 in.
Wheel Base: 105.3 in.
Front Head Room: 38.7 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 56.1 in.
Front Leg Room: 42.3 in.
Rear Head Room: 37.1 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 54.9 in.
Rear Leg Room: 36.5 in.
Millenia:
Length: 189.8 in.
Width: 69.7 in.
Height: 54.9 in.
Wheel Base: 108.3 in.
Front Head Room: 39.3 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 55.1 in.
Front Leg Room: 43.3 in.
Rear Head Room: 37 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 54.2 in.
Rear Leg Room: 34.1 in.
That 929 was a seriously FUNKY car - had all sorts of weird stuff like electric fans in the roof that would cool the car if it were sitting in the sun, even if it was unoccupied. I had a neighbor with a pair of them - they used to work on the cars themselves, and for various little electronic reasons one or the other would ALWAYS be out of commission. They claimed they loved those cars, but they sure did try your patience.
IMHO, Mazda should branch out in sport trucks/mini-utes before they try to get back into bigger cars. Why couldn't Mazda have is own full-size truck for instance? In multiple sport versions of course.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A Mazda badged F150? No thanks. I'd rather they left that to Ford.
I work in the service dept. of a Toyota dealer and well remember salesmen complaining of sales lost to the Accord or Altima back then because the Camry was too big for some customers.
I still think there's a market here for that size car, bigger than Corolla/Civic/Sentra but smaller than current Camry/Accord/Altima.
Toyota and Honda build this tweener size car (Toyota Avensis, non-US market Accord) just not for sale in the US, though the Honda version is sold here under the Acura nameplate.
If Mazda wants to be Honda or Toyota they do need a bigger car, but they don't want to be Honda or Toyota. They don't want to build a cushy car, the failure of the last generation 626 was a good lesson for them.
I wish they sold those here. The Camry turned into a bloated porker. It looks HUGE. If these cars keep getting bigger, they're going to turn into modern day versions of one of these:
As a dyed-in-the-wool Mazda fan, I have been most impressed with Mazda's renaissance over the last several years. However, despite all the accolades, Mazda has really only produced two vehicles that are either genuinely unique or class leaders - the RX-8 and the Mazda3.
The Mazda6 is a fine vehicle as well - near the top of its class - but I don't consider it a homerun. More like a stand-up triple. The addition of the 5-door and the wagon to the model range helps, as will the upcoming Mazdaspeed version due next spring - but it simply isn't quite good enough to break through to the truly top tier of the most competitive segment in automobiledom.
So, based on what I know about Mazda's upcoming product, and bearing in mind that I live in Canada with our surprisingly different taste in cars, here's a little advice to Mazda to keep the heat on the competition.
1) Evolve Mazdaspeed into a something similar to BMW's M division. In other words, make a Mazdaspeed version of just about everything you make and make them available all the time. This one model at a time thing, with ridiculously limited production runs misses the boat. With the rise of Japanese tuner cars, Mazda has the opportunity to corner the market on no-compromise performance vehicles that are still tasteful and covered by a manufacturers warranty.
So built the Mazdaspeed 6 and keep building them. Keep building the Mazdaspeed Miata. Build and AWD 240HP Mazdaspeed 3. And finally, do something wild with the Tribute, which would help differentiate it from its twin brother, the Escape and make it stand out in another increasingly competitive segement, the compact SUV.
2) Move quickly to update the Mazda6 and fix the things that keep it from selling in bigger numbers. I.e. get on your hands and knees and beg for an allotment of the new Duratec 3.5 and do a number on it like you did on the Duratec 3.0 (I know Mazda, big V6's equal torque steer and less than ideal handling, but sometimes you have to give the people what they want even when they want something they shouldn't - plus you can always offer an AWD model if you can make your silly AWD system work with a V6 engine)
Also, update the interior right away. The base cloth upholstery is bush and too many people dislike the centre console. You get an A+ for the Mazda3 interior Mazda, so we know you can do it.
Also - and I hate to give you this advice Mazda because I DO NOT LIKE big cars, but stretch out the Mazda6 platform and make the car bigger. The back seat is simply too cramped for the North American market. Do the engine fix and the interior fix for 2006 and the bigger platform for 2007.
3) Now that you are bringing the Mazda5 to Canada and the US (Good move Mazda - and brave too! Hats off) build an MPV that is big enough for North American tastes. That means - you guessed it - stretching the Mazda6 platform and once again going to big daddy at Ford and begging and pleading for that Duratec 35. I only hope that you can continue to work your magic and still make the ting fun to drive. The MPV is a really great package, just make it bigger and get rid of the goddam column shifter.
4) Completely ignore all of the crazies out there that tell you to put a rotary engine or - give me a break - a V6 in the Miata. The new corporate 2.3L will do just fine in the 2006 re-design. What you do need to do is return the car to its more purist roots, not try and compete with the Audi TT's and BMW Z3's of the world. Light, simple, tossable. That's the formula.
5) I understand that the 2006 Tribute will be built entirely in Japan for the North American market. Not many others know this yet, I think, but I believe this information to be pretty reliable. Good news.
Here, Mazda is what you need to do with the Tribute. Build it on the Mazda6 platform, vastly improve the quality of the interior, make it even a little more biased towards performance, and - like I said above - make a wild, Mazdaspeed edition.
6) Your upcoming luxury SUV will be based on the Aviator. My only advice on this one - since I don't know very much about it - is to move heaven and earth to differentiate the exterior and interior design as much as you possibly can from the Ford. I don't think people will care if the mechanics are essentially the same (Ford makes good trucks and SUVs) but it has to look and feel like a Mazda.
7) The Mazda3 is a truly great car. All you need to do in the short term is to pair the 2.3L engine with a five speed automatic transmission. That should improve highway comfort and help take care of fuel economy concerns.
Other than that, my only advice is to find a way to do more with this platform. Its too good not to be used more. I know that Mazda5 is coming, but how about a nifty coupe or even a convertible on this platform.
8) Ahhh, the RX-8 and the Renesis. Its finicky, but its good. Use your wizardry to find a way to put some extra ponies into the thing. If you could get it up to 275-280 HP, the horsepower freaks would have little or nothing to complain about. What about that electric turbo thingy we keep hearing about. That sounds cool. Oh yah, build the RX-7.
Some general advice
1) Bite the bullet and make all the safety stuff standard in all of your cars, especially in the US where the whining about this is incessant.
2) Mazda, its time to either build or source a truly decent five speed automatic transmission for your cars, minivan and SUVs. Too many complaints about what you have in your vehicles now.
3) The AWD thing is getting big. You've got two great platforms that are AWD compatible. Don't be afraid to jump on this. Up here in Canada, it would make people very happy.
4) Continue to focus on improving the interior quality and design in your products. Good start, keep it up.
Keep the Miata simple, and cheap, but make it roomier so larger folks can fit. Make an RX-7 convertible to take care of the higher end, be a BMW/S2000 fighter, etc.
If the 5 is coming over (stick shift, please), re-do the MPV to make it bigger. Not neccesarily Ody sized, but maybe previous Sienna size. I still believe that there is a decent market for a mid-size mini van, since not everyone needs gigantic. Right now, the only option is the standard WB Caravan.
And make sure to get the SUV thing right. I don't like them, but they are still a big business. Isn't Mazda getting a version of the Freestyle? The right powertrain and suspension and styling, and that would be a big seller for Mazda.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I have a question about this. What people? Give what people what they want? Give the average consumer what they want? Try to please everyone? We need a full size Mazda pick-up? I'm starting to think Mazda should just go out of business or focus on Asia and Europe if this is what people really want.
I think more power is usually a good idea, but where does it stop? Same deal with size. Where does it stop? Should Mazda always try to out-do or equal Honda and Toyota in terms of size and power?
If the trend is to always make the new generations bigger and more powerful, there's going to come a point when the Mazda3 isn't a compact anymore. There's going to come a point when the Camry isn't a midsize anymore...it's already borderline. What is the point? Why does everything always need to get bigger and more powerful? Why should Mazda have to build a sedan that will fit 5 fat [non-permissible content removed] Americans?
Look at Nissan. Sales probably quadrupled on the Altima when they redesigned it.
But no, mazda shouldn't try to do everything, just adjust their core products to sell more.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
IMO, the Altima isn't really an Altima. It's a natural evolution of the Maxima.
But everybody else's full-size pick-up is so booooring! Mazda could be the purveyor of full-size SPORT trucks. Speaking of which, if they are going to keep selling the B-series trucks, which are all but extinct in terms of sales, they need a VERY HEALTHY dose of sport too.
Sport trucks do sell will in the limited niche fashion they have been tried so far. And Mazda is the sport company. Pick-ups are popular - I don't think it is a bad idea. Otherwise, they should cancel the B-series altogether - it is a very obvious Ranger rebadge without anything to differentiate it except the higher price when like-equipped.
Nissan has started selling a full-size pick-up, Toyota already does, now Mitsu will be getting into the truck game next year with the Raider (Dakota rebadge). Trucks sell in America, and it is a segment Mazda does not exploit at all.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What about the Silverado SS, Ford Lightning, and that Dodge with the Viper V10? Is there room for a Mazda too? What would it be, when Ford already has the Lightning? An F150 with a twin turbo 8 rotor rotary? Yeah right. Mazda's daddy, Ford, is already the king of trucks and if Mazda got into trucks, you know they'd just be rebadged Fords.
I am not talking about $50K "NASCAR trucks" like those others you mentioned (especially the Viper Ram). I am talking more about lowered versions of regular trucks at regular prices, with sport suspensions, wide tires, and perhaps a healthier proportion of manual transmissions with six speeds.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And they had the S-Runner this year that was okay for a sport minitruck.
Although the Tacoma is going midsize next year.
Oh oh. Back to CCBA.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
And what is this nonsense about making Mazdas bigger to compete with everyone else? Isn't that what Mazda fans didn't want? This is what Ford is for. They are there to compete with the Accords and Camrys. They make the pick-up trucks and SUVs. If this is what you're interested in buy a Ford or Toyota or whatever.
The upcoming Fusion will have everything everyone is demanding. Stretched Mazda6 platform, available AWD, hybrid version, 6-speed automatic, more interior room, high performance version. You name it it'll have it. The Mazda6 is there to compete with the Avensis, European Accord. Don't expect huge increase in size unless they make a completely different car. But again what's the point with Ford around to handle the American tastes? We should be glad we get the same Mazda6 everyone else gets, don't screw it up by demanding bigger cars with more weight and throwing sunroofs on every car they can make. There are plenty of brands that will sell you this.
The same goes for the 6. But as long as it sells at least as well as the rather dismal 626 of the final years, it is probably OK. But what of the size similarity to the less expensive 3?
Now I'm not sure the "smaller is better" argument applies to trucks, and I still say Mazda should have one or two good ones.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Look, pzev, I love the car, but in North America it isn't competing against the Avensis and the European Accord. It's competiting against the Camry, the NA Accord and the Altima.
First, I'm only suggesting that Mazda modifies the size of the car for NA, not for the rest of the world. They build all three versions of the car here, so they could.
Secondly, I'm not suggesting they should increase the size of the platform by four and half feet. It needs to be somewhat wider and longer to open up more interior space, especially in the backseat.
Will that destroy the essential elements that make people who love the current version love the current version? I don't know, but I suspect it would not.
Again, I am not talking about a dramatic increase in size, but the Mazda6 currently barely qualifies as a mid-size sedan in terms of interior volume. That's a bit tight, especially for pudget North Americans.
At least the current Mazdas are a bit different from most everything else out there. No wonder Mazda/Ford is so confused. People ask for what Europe gets and they get it then they complain about it being too small. Make the Mazda6 bigger and people will find something else to complain about. You might be surprised the amount of people driving Accords and Camrys and they're single with no family.
Sure good handling pick-up trucks and SUVs sounds great but how many people give 2 cents about this when they buy one? It's all about "bigger is better" and Mazda would do better to get their reliability up rather than making bigger cars and having Ford NA reliability to go along with it because this is EXACTLY what will happen if they focus on SUVs and pick-up trucks and big cars like the Fusion.
This is part of the appeal of Mazdas, not only because most of them are built in Japan but they are more European in handling and it's something different on the NA market to choose from. Asking for these big cars and pick-up trucks is just asking for reskinned Fords made with cheap parts with the rental companies in mind.
I don't agree with trying to make Mazda as mainstream as Ford though. If there's some recipe for success by having big cars and trucks with good handling then Ford would jump on it themselves. All the Mazda dealers I see can't handle many more models anyway. Let Mazda stick with what they're good at and leave the pick-up trucks to Ford.
If they are going to go to the trouble of bringing an all-new model to the States, I do not think the Mazda5 should be it. People will confuse it too much with the 3 hatch, and it won't fit the designated number of people in anything approaching what Americans think of as comfort.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It says Mazda produced the 100,000th RX8 18 months into production. It sold 29,000 in the US by the end of August and 23,000 in Japan.
Does anyone know what Mazda's projections were for the RX8? Anyone know how that compares to cars like the 350Z or S2000?
I tried to look this up myself, but I didn't have any luck.
I did run across an interesting article about Mazda sales in Europe (where you CAN buy an Avensis or Euro Accord), although it's somewhat dated, but check it out anyway:
http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2004/May-2004/May-2004-4/May-- 26-04-p6.htm
I find it interesting that Germany with all of the Jettas and Passats is Mazda's strongest market in Europe.
http://rotarynews.com/?q=node/view/458
key developments include a hydrogen/gasoling hybrid RENESIS that can seamlessly switch from one fuel to another, and a gas/electric hybrid RENESIS that also has an electric-assisted turbo.
very interesting developments from the rotorheads back in Japan :-D
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svcoupe.asp
The Z car's sales have dropped off a lot, while the RX-8's seem to be climbing or at least maintaining a very steady volume. On a sidenote, I find it most enigmatic indeed that autosite does not include the RX-8 in its sales report - just about every other model on sale in the U.S. is in there, so why not that one?
To extrapolate (if the RX-8 can maintain its momentum), the ReX should sell somewhere around 40K for the year, which is really good for a 2+2.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"The Mazdaspeed6 isn't going to have a sunroof? Good, glad to see there's some hope left out there. The Acura dealership will be happy to force a sunroof on you so go shop there."
But is it better to "deprive" everyone of a roof. Including those that want one.
Oh yeah, Stick, Toyota does offer a roof in the Tacoma.
you mention the RX8 with "hydrogen/gasoling hybrid RENESIS that can seamlessly switch from one fuel to another, and a gas/electric hybrid RENESIS that also has an electric-assisted turbo"
This is promising as Mazda is planning for its future. Making more of the same is obviously a formula for obsolescence.
What Alan Greenspan Knows:
As AG obliquely suggested yesterday, the future is not gas-powered. Let's encourage Mazda to keep on moving in the right direction by asking "When will the Mazda3 or Mazda 6 zoom gas-free?"
Avoiding the Bland Name:
Growing an auto brand does not require a zillion models or satisfying every niche. If BMW and Porsche were in the crosshairs Mazda would be delivering interesting products while carrying on a decent business. GM, Ford and increasingly Toyota seem to define themselves as department-store auto brands, "we cater to all". Let's support Mazda becoming a distinctive brand, FutureZoom, which can deliver style and performance for the future.
Last Lines to Cosmo:
The fact that Mazda is part of the Ford family is revealing. Auto companies need brands that are global and yet distinctive. Brands catering to the US or any other single market are risky. The Mazda3 is a wonderful example of the cosmo-car : a refined, distinctive vehicle that is adaptable to different markets. Adding hybrid-power should be part of its near future.
I'll get off the soapbox now.
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Mazda has already stated the 6 has to grow, to be made closer to the Accord and Camry in interior room. Hopefully, that will allow the MZ3 to also stretch a little and gain more rear leg room as well as increase the front seat cushions for thigh support.
I agree the Mazda3 is way ahead of the 6 design-wise. It's a more exciting car with better interior work and amenities. And a much shorter turning circle, a must have to be a true sport sedan. Powerwise it's no match for a BMW 330i, but everything else is close enough. As it is today, it needs more rear leg room, otherwise, one tends to think of the Mazda3 as a four-door coupe or a 2+2 (two in comfort and two in misery) with four doors. But as the first in a new breed Mazda hit a homerun. It may be THE best small car for the end of the oil age, if what the Arabs are saying is true -- a barrel of oil will cost $100 by March 2005, which means much higher pump prices.
Mazda doesn't need a larger pick up truck, not with fuel costs rising sharply in the near future. And they were wise to co-op on the Tribute. This explains the introduction of the Mazda5, a smaller MPV, getting the jump on Honda's new Odyssey.
Tighten your seat belts, a fatter wallet will be required which may push you out of your seats.
fowler3
Interesting! The Mazda3 hatchback I'm considering buying next May has 95.3/17.1, for a total of 112.4 -- making it LARGER than the Mazda6!!!
Meade
True - but my rental Altima (not sure if it was a 2003 or 2004, in Feb 2004) had a nice burned half-circle in the plastic bumber cover right above the tailpipe.
The new Odyssey is going to be slightly smaller, but not on the order of Mazda5 vs MPV.
Just read an article the other day which echoed what I mentioned here: sport trucks are on their way up in popularity. And Mazda is the sport company. And it has been making compact pick-ups for more than a quarter century. Which part doesn't fit here??
I agree, if gas goes up a lot more (and I suspect it will) there may be a decrease in interest in big trucks, so maybe they do a compact truck before they do an SUV larger than Trib. Of course, regardless of what I say, that is not the order in which it is going to occur, because the 7-seat Mazda is already in the pipeline. :-)
I like the family look Mazda has developed in the last four or five years - the faces of all the models look a little like the wings of a bird in flight from the front, mimicking the Mazda insignia. Styling-wise they shouldn't change a thing! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)