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First, for every day driving you cannot beat a diesel. High torque at low RPM = good acceration. The Mazda5 2.0L CDI bests the Mazda5 gas engine by 2 tenths of a second in a sprint to 60. But who really smashes the gas to 60mph anyway? The diesels really outshine gas engines from 30-60mph acceleration (highway merging), and usually without downshifting. Not to mention that you can chug up huge hills in top gear at 2000-2500 rpm in a diesel. Try that with a 2.0 liter gas engine. Handling? Yeah, the engines do weigh about 150 lbs more than their gas counterpart, but the Europeans aren't exactly known for having straight, flat, wellpaved roads crisscrossing the countryside. Know any American WRC (world rally champion) drivers? The small Euro diesels still handle just as good as their gas siblings.
As far as efficiency is concerned, I believe an earlier post comparing gas and diesel was off a little. A car that gets about 30mpg on gas will get around 45-50 mpg on diesel. Engine efficiency is at least 30% higher in diesels, and can be 50% or higher. Look at a new VW Golf as an example: 30 mpg highway gas, 45 mpg diesel (EPA estimates). The Mazda5 2.0L CDI available everywhere in the world but here averages about 38 mpg in mixed city/highway driving. That bests the gas 2.3L by about 13-15 mpg.
Cost? Hmm: 1. If you are near a major interstate highway and can find a place that lots of trucks refuel at, you will find that diesel is actually a bit cheaper than gas (supply/demand), diesel is also cheaper to refine (and never mind biodiesel); 2. VW's diesels cost the same as their gas engines. Mazda apparently charges about a $1500 premium for their most high tech CDI diesel, though a few countries offer a tax credit of almost $1000 for the purchase of the technology. And yes, diesels do inherently cost more to repair because of increased complexity, but they are infinitely more reliable than gas motors. About the only thing to ever go on a diesel is the turbocharger. Diesels typically have twice the engine life of gas. My understanding is that Diesel big-rig motors are known to go 1,000,000 before retirement.
Emisions? Yes, I have an answer for that one too!
Last thing: Oil consumption and greenhouse gasses are two big concerns in our country and world. With a diesel car you can have the piece of mind that you are contributing to the preservation of two of the most precious and limited natural resources necessary for society, and life, as we know them (oil and air).
I can't stand how we just drag our feet in this country while talking heads and politicians are always about yapping "let the marketplace work." Regulate higher corporate MPG and make cleandiesel and biodiesel mandatory. Invest tax and private money in US farmers to grow soybeans for biodiesel production. Car companies will be airlifting diesels into the country!!
Can you tell I really like diesels, yet?
Until then, I just can't wait to get mine back from the dealer with the recall fixed!
The earlier comment about messy refueling for diesels. I know you said you don't care what they do in Europe, but I have to share this for the benefit of everyone here-
I spent several weeks in the U.K. last year and had a Ford Focus TDCi rental. It had the 1.8L turbo diesel that makes 115 hp and 206 lb-ft of torque and 5-speed manual.
This was my first time driving a diesel car (had driven a Dodge Ram diesel before) and I was amazed at how easily the car accelerated. The slow revving nature was odd at first and there isn't a lot of high-end power like in a gas 4-cylinder, but the car was perfect for city driving. I looked up acceleration numbers a while back and they quote 0-60 at 9.7 seconds. This was a first generation Focus (like the one we still have) and the new '05 Euro Focus has more advanced and faster engines available.
Anyway, the comment about diesel pumps being smelly and dirty in the U.S. is correct. Interestingly, the ones I used in England and Scotland were very clean. They provided disposable gloves to use and instead of concrete, there was a metal grid you parked on while you pumped. I'm supposing this was so the fuel spilled would have somewhere to go. Perhaps the condition of diesel pumps here is because 99% of the people using them are drivers of full size pickups who aren't as sensitive to that sort of thing?
Long story short- I loved the driving characteristics of the diesel engine, if diesels exceed comparably powerful gas engines they make sense.
Just my two cents worth.
Price of gas VS diesel
Right now diesel is more than reg gas - historically this has not been the case -
If you refine a barrel of crude oil (42 gallons) you get about 22 gallons of gas and about 14 gallons of some combination of diesel - heating oil - kerosene & jet fuel. Plus some other left over junk like asphalt.
The reason diesel (historically) cost less than gas was because more gas was used compared to diesel (including heating oil, kerosene & jet fuel) so after the refineries produced enough gas to meet demand - they had more diesel "left over" from the refining process than they could sell. So the price was lower.
If you compare the USA to Europe 20/30 years ago - the USA had a larger relative demand (not counting cars) for diesel - jet fuel - heating oil & kerosene. So the amount of "left over" diesel in Europe was much higher than in the USA - so they encouraged more cars to be developed that run on diesel so they could get rid of it.
Now when the economy grows the demand for diesel, heating oil and jet fuel actually grows faster than the demand for gas - so you get periods of time when diesel will (because of supply and demand) cost more than gas.
Long term reliability - no doubt goes to the diesel - but most gas engines will last well over 100K - by then its time for a new car anyway. If you ever get a tank full of diesel that has some water in it and plug up your injectors (not covered by warranty) you will curse the day you bought a diesel.
p.s. Diesels are very common in Quebec in large part because of the cheaper fuel prices and Quebeckers love of all things European. Vive la difference!
By the way, I have run into plenty of Canadians on my travels here in the US and abroad, and I was always stunned by the brandishing of Canadian flags on backpacks, hats, travelbags, t-shirts and other easily seen places. I figured that maybe Canadians were just a very patriotic sort, so I asked a 30-something Canadian in Madrid about the flag bearing. He simply stated, "Canadians always wear their flag when they travel so people don't mistake us for Americans."
:shades:
In my experience most Americans and Canadians keep a low profile when away from home. The give away is when we end up driving on the wrong side of the road or looking shocked when someone suggests "bangers" for lunch.
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Meade
Everytime I go to London I just eat the beer!
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Meade
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2.) How long will the B-Series pick-up be in Mazda's current line-up?
3.) Also, I have only seen one new 2006 Miata on the road so far. In my opinion they could have and maybe should have introduced the 06 Miata early(like March of this year) so it could have sold well throughout the spring/summer buying season this year. I mean the 99-05 Miata had been for 8 years anyway I think since 98 since the 99 Miata came out in 98 if I recall right. I think during the spring/summer sales buying season people would look at a brand new Miata alot more then now when it is going into fall and winter weather up in the Northeast. I should also add isn't most of Mazda customers up in the Northeast anyway?
2)The B series is just a warmed over ranger, whixh is supposedly going to be hanging around for a while. It is logical to assume that, as long as they sell a few, they will keep the B series also.
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Unknown how long it will stay. Mazda has told Ford they want a truck to call their own. Mazda looks and Mazda DNA.... Ford told Mazda, maybe.....thats where it stands at this point. I don't think it's a big priority.
Sometimes the timing of new vehicle launches isnt what we would call ideal. But there is little we can do about it....Of course the Miata showed up just in time for the snow birds down south. OTOH the imminent arrival of the Speed6 is perfect with the AWD feature...
Ok so your saying Mazda should have a brand new Tribute for the 2007 model year? If there will be a new 07 Tribute will Ford use the new MZ 6 streched platform then for a brand new 07 Escape? If an 07 Escape appears which I think it will wil Mazda and Ford engineer their Tribute's and Escape's seperately or will the 07 Tribute and Escape be mechanical twins the way the 01 Trib/Escapes were? Finally, where will the next generation Tribute/Escape be assembled at?
"Unknown how long it will stay. Mazda has told Ford they want a truck to call their own. Mazda looks and Mazda DNA.... Ford told Mazda, maybe.....thats where it stands at this point. I don't think it's a big priority."
Yeah I agree a pick-up truck especially a compact sized one like the current B-Series isn't a big priority now in Mazda's line-up. As a matter of fact I don't even think a pick-up truck even fits in Mazda's current line-up well . I mean the current B-Series is so old I think Mazda should just dump the thing anyway. I think the current B-Series was new for 1998.
I also have another question/comment as well:
1.) I have read on this thread that Mazda excecs think they made a mistake and made the suspension too sporty for the current Mazda 6. My understanding is Mazda will water down the suspension for the brand new 08 6. In my opinion Mazda should just keep the sporty handling of the current 6 alive in the 08 6 and find a happy medium with the sporty handling of the current 6 along with the boosted interior room of the 08 6. If Mazda waters down the suspension why would anybody buy an 08 6 over a Honda Accord? I mean Mazda has to offer something over a Honda, Toyota, and even Nissan. Mazda has never had a big time selling car like the Altima, Accord, Camry, Impala, or even the defunctor almost defunct Tarus. In my opinion every automaker needs that big time selling car in their line-up. The 626 was Mazda's best selling car in the 80's-maybe 1999 or 2000 I think. From at least 2000 and up the Protege/3 has outsold the 626/6. I think now a carmaker can;t have a compact car outselling your mid-sized car. I mean the Altima outsells the Sentra, The Camry outsells the Corolla, and the Accord outsells the Civic.
2.) What happened to Mazda interiors? I just felt like the 3 has a cheaper interior than the 99-03 Protege. In my opinion Mazda needs to get their interior to where they were in the 90's. Arte there any plans for Mazda to upgrade their interiors for future models? The interior in the Tribute and RX-8 are nice though. The interior in the 6 while not bad could use a big upgrade for the 08 model. I sat in a 04 6 and the buttons for the A/C like confusing to use a little bit.
3.) I saw on another thread that the new 08 6 will be made in Mexico. Will there any next generation 6's made in Flat Rock or Hiroshima that will be for the North American market?
4.) will Mazda ever have a plant of their own like Honda has in Ohio, Toyota has in Kentucky, and Nissan has in Tennesee and even Mitsubishi in Illinois? Isn;t Mazda scared of the big tarriffs that involve shipping cars from Japan to the US? I mean the RX-8, 3, Miata, and MPV are all made in Japan. I also heard on another thread that Mazda will make the new MPV schelued for an 07 model year release in Flat Rock. Yes, Audi 8q I remember you saying that on the "Future models Thread" and about the next 6 being made in Mexico as well. Anyway, In my opinion Mazda should just take over the Flat Rock Plant and hire non-union workers the way the Japanese Big 3 do but maybe Ford wouldn't like that. I'm not saying union workers are bad but the Japanese Big 3 have non-union workers. I think the Mitsu plant in Illinois just signed a new agreement with a union.
2....I like the interior of the MZ3 so I guess it's subjective...I would like a little nicer interior on the MZ6...but I think a car above the MZ6 could address that nicely...
3...Ive been told the MZ6 is moving to Mexico where the make the Zephyer, Milan. Makes sense since they are all sister cars. Flat Rock must always build a Mazda product as part of the Ford/Mazda agreement...so either it will get a new product or it will be closed. According to a Flat Rock insider they have been told a large Mazda car is slated to be built there....
4....Flat Rock is Mazda's plant, per se....I don't think they have any plans to add any....If they need a plant they could get one of the plants that Ford is going to close in the future....MPV remains a mystery. The new MPV looks good, but it may not see the US. The debate continues within Mazda.
I also agree the interior of the "6" could be nicer. My brother has a 2003 6i and even though most of the switchgear / dash material / etc looks the same as in our MPV it doesn't have the same tactile quality.
-Jason
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audia8q - any place we can see pics of the new MPV (I assume it's Japan only right now)?
You can see all kinds of interesting stuff including the new MPV.
-Mazda Miata sales doubled in sales from October 04 figures.
-What happened to Mazda 5 sales were they still on stop-sale in the begginning of October?
-Tribute sales were down.
-Mazda 6 sales were again down for the second straight month. I wonder what is happening with the mid-sized car segment since Accord, Altima, and Camry were also down last month.
BTW, just not a good month for the industry overall. Ford sales were down 20-22 percent I think. GM sales were down 22 percent and Nissan sales were down 13.3%.
Yup, the Mazda5 was pretty much unavailable for purchase for any of October. The recall-related fix is still under way: October 26th was the earliest that dealers could start recall-related repairs (which needed to be done before the cars could be sold). The recall will most likely affect November sales too.
Maybe this forum might beable to answer my question ????
How much of Mazda does Ford own ????? :confuse:
Thanx rockylee
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You need to own more than 50% of a company to have OUTRIGHT control - but in reality Ford has effective control over Mazda - anytime a company owns much over 25-30% of another company they basically call the shots IF THEY WANT TO.
IMO - Ford is allowing Mazda some freedom to design the cars that it wants (which is a very good thing)
BUT
Mazda has adopted most of Ford's business practices - the way they (Mazda) treat North American customers is just like Ford (I learned this the hard way)
Well dealerships aren't very good anymore. I had the same expierence with Acura and some GM dealerships down here in Tx. Honesty seems to lost it's meaning when it comes to car buying.
Rocky
You need to own more than 50% of a company to have OUTRIGHT control - but in reality Ford has effective control over Mazda - anytime a company owns much over 25-30% of another company they basically call the shots IF THEY WANT TO
Under Japanese law Ford own's enough shares to have full control. Including but not limited to selecting the President and senior mgt staff.
Mitsu is not #3, Nissan is. Sales for Nissan has increased year after year since Renault took controlling interest.
You're right, though. Mazda MUST be selling more than Mitsu, if not VERY close, considering that Mitsu is not in healthy shape, and could very well be history within 5 years...
I would think that Mazda would be pleased when Ford uses their ideas and designs. It's a sign that they are on the right track. Ford also owns significant shares in Volvo and Jaguar and they are also revived by their association. Partnerships, amalgamations, take-overs are bound to happen as an industry matures; what is troublesome is if the winner is the bottom-feeder rather than the star. Companies that try to undersell or to get away with an unreliable piece of flashy trash are the most dangerous because they can force the others down in order to maintain market share. I'd argue the opposite is happening: the chaff is being removed and we are starting to see a new era in automobile history. Better-built, more reliable, more powerful, more fuel-efficient cars are no longer a pipe dream but are appearing in showrooms. The Honda Accord Hybrid is one shining example; the coming Toyota Camry Hybrid is not far behind. Ford has made some recent commitments that seem promising but are a little late in coming. I'm all in favour of competition/collaboration within the family (Ford/Mazda/Volvo/Jaguar); that's what leads to innovation.
New Mazda RX-8 in Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series
The Grand American Road Racing Association is the fastest-growing road racing series in North America, if not the world.
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http://www.grandamerican.com
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"Mazda has adopted most of Ford's business practices - the way they (Mazda) treat North American customers is just like Ford (I learned this the hard way"
Last time I looked at dealer satifisfaction scores which(Pontiac, Ford, and Chrysler) was 3 years ago the Domestic Big 3 makes had higher dealer satisfaction scores than the Japenese makes(Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Mazda.) Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Mitsubishi were at the bottom of the survey while Ford, Pontiac, and Chsrysler wre near the middle of the pack in dealer satisfaction scores. Not surprisingly though dealer sarisfaction at luxury car dealerships(BMW, Cadillac , Infinti, Lexus) were near the top of the survey.
The 6 could not be an IS or a 3 Series killer. The 6 competes with the Altima, Accord, and Camry. Surely the 6 is better than cars like the Pontiac Grand Prix, and Mitsubshi Galant but Mazda missed the boat on interior room with the 6 even though they hit the nail on the head with the exterior styling. The car is too small in interior room to compete with midsize offerings from Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. Luckily the issue with interior room I hope will be resolved with the 08 6. If I had to buy a car now I would buy the 6 because I feel the Altima is too big in size for me personally.
BTW, Consumer Reports now reccomends the Mazda 6(4cyl) sedan and the MZ 6 wagon but they still do not reccomend the 6 hatchback, and 6 sedan(6cyl) due to below average reliability. The 6(4cyl)sedan and the 6 wagon are now average and above average in reliability respectively.
What can Mazda do when Ford uses their idea's? basically nothing because Ford like it or not can use Mazda's stuff as they please. As for exterior styling if Fprd made their car look a Mazda it wouldn't work though. Ford has to retain their styling DNA. I mean they are comparisons that compare the Front end of the Pontiac G6 to a 98-02 Accord and also comparisons to the 03-05 Accord looking a early 90's Buick. In conclusion Ford would be shooting themsleves in the foot iof they styled their car like a Mazda.
"It's only a matter of time before there is a Ford branded 5 rolling around town and that makes me sick to my stomach."
Uh don't make me think about that please. In conclusion if Ford uses too much of Mazda's stuff they could kill Mazda then where would Ford get their idea's from? Ford doesn't probably want to think about that one. I would still take a Mazda over a Ford though even if there was little difference between the two. Ford's styling is not for me with the exception of thwe new Explorer and the mid to late 90's Mustang. I like the F-150's styling too. I don't care for the Fusion's styling. Its not for me. It goes well in Ford's line-up as far as their core buyer goes though.