Subaru XT Turbo Forester

p0926

I'm definitely going to have it applied to my next vehicle.

-Frank P.

ateixeira

Frank: not if you pay cash out of your rainy day fund. :-)

I do agree that if you're on the fence, it would be good to wait until just before the 3/36 expires to decide whether you want the warranty. If you have not had a single problem, then maybe not.

-juice

taoman

Larry,

If you decide to wait a while on purchasing a Forester XT, you might want to consider joining
IMBA and then you can purchase a new Subaru at invoice price after you've been a member in IMBA for 6 months. The program is called the Subaru VIP Partners Program. Here is a link to the details of the program on IMBA's web site:

http://www.imba.com/tcc/subaru.html

I purchased a 2003 Outback wagon using this program a couple of months ago and it was the most pain-free auto buying experience I have ever had. I contacted IMBA when I was ready to buy the car and told them what Subaru dealer I would use. IMBA contacted Subaru for me and Subaru mailed me a voucher which I presented to the dealer. The voucher states that the dealer must sell the vehicle with all factory options at invoice and that any dealer/customer incentives reduces your invoice price.

You would have to negotiate the price for any dealer-added options. I purchased my Outback at $1,000 under invoice (there was a $1000 cash to dealer incentive)and then I had to negotiate for the few dealer-added options that I wanted. The cost to join IMBA is only $25 for an individual or $75 for a family.

Neil

fryingbologna

The IMBA faq states that thier offer does not extend to Canadian Subaru dealers. Are any of you aware of a similar program that is available to us Caknuckleheads?

fargfam

I have Clear Shield on my 2003 java black Forester and let me tell you its well worth it. The installers covered the entire front end, lights, side mirrors, under door handles, and edges of all door frames. The dealer price was around $700.00 and was able to negotiate $600.00. I decided to get it after the first week of ownership. I couldn't believe how much rock dings show on black, plastic bumpers. Now there's no worry.

ace1000

Doing some homework before I decide whether to buy an XT. What do Subaru dealers usually charge for routine service?

Edmunds doesn't have a schedule for an XT yet. For a 2003 XS it shows $128 at 7500 miles, about $200 at 15000 miles, and about $400 at 30000 miles.

ateixeira

Should be the same. I don't think it requires any additional maintenance for the turbo or IC.

-juice

kullenberg

Juice - thanks for the info
Cheers
Pat

ballistic

Took the XT on a day trip from Portland to the Pacific and back yesterday, which finally brought my total miles near 1,000. Had 4 adults aboard (wife and myself plus her sister and niece). We also had a medium-size load in the rear, so I raised the back tires to 36psi for the trip. Even so, people complimented the XT's ride, and no one complained about the backseat space. With that load of people and cargo, the XT flattened the Coast mountain range as if it was flat ground.

Out of habit, I kept downshifting to 4th to pass trucks and RVs on the 2-lane sections. I did that five or ten times before breaking the habit and just charging around the dawdler in 5th.

With this much power on tap and with such low (high numerical) gearing, the throttle is quite sensitive. Just shifting positions can move your throttle foot enough to inadvertently add 5mph. I'm still limiting my usage of the cruise control for awhile longer, but at sustained highway speeds the XT (more than most cars) is more pleasant on cruise than off.

I'm still not wild about running 3,000-3,500 rpms to maintain highway cruising speeds of 70-80 mph. A car with this much wide-band power should be geared to reach those speeds at more like 2,500-2,800 rpm.

Now I have just 1,000 more miles remaining on my extended break-in. I'll change the oil and filter this weekend, and will continue to generally observe a 3,500-4,000 rpm rev limit until I reach 2,000 miles. Then the fun starts.

I read an item in another forum recommending a 'Whiteline steering rack bushing'. As one who'd like more road feedback and feel through the steering, this sounded interesting. Anyone here have any firsthand knowledge of what this bushing accomplishes and how difficult the installation is?

jb

njswamplands

i test drove a xt today. damn thing nearly torqued my head off when i stomped on it. handling was good, road feel was good, i think we have a winner if i can get a decent price. just cant figure out why those windows are not tinted from the factory....

kens

The Forester is classified as a passenger car, not a truck, and hence tinting laws are more strict.

Ken

corkfish

Is engine-break in that critical with contemporary motors? I've heard some say that gentle break-ins can cause glazing and/or bad ring seal. If it were that critical, would sales people be allowed to take new cars out and thrash them? Does anyone who leases a car actually drive it gently for 1000 miles?

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

lbhaley

I just found this site on the web. I confirms the numbers that Car and Driver got. Wow.

http://www.car-videos.com/performance/view.asp?id1=277&id2=0

ateixeira

Jack: you can affect your gearing with tire size, specifically a bigger diameter tire would lower rpm at any given speed.

The catch is there's only space for 225/60R16s, just 6mm taller than stock, unless you get rims with a different offset and/or lift the body to create more room. Plus that's too big to fit in the spare tire well.

I did that myself. My spare is inflated at a higher psi, and both my differentials are open, which would help absorb the difference. 225/60R16 is also a very common tire size if I ever needed to find one in a pinch.

corkfish: I'm eager to see a response from a manufacturer about that break-in period strategy.

-juice

ballistic

Juice,

Does the clearance limitation relate mainly to tire width or to diameter? A different aspect ratio (say, 215/70x16 or maybe 225/70x16) would provide increased diameter without drastically reducing the strut-to-sidewall clearance.

I'm not so sure I'd like the look, but switching to the largest-diameter tires that will fit would be cheaper than replacing the ring-and-pinion gears.

jb

ateixeira

Both.

The rear tire is close to the strut base. You have maybe 1/2" of clearance diagonally there, so height and width come into play. I'm pretty sure a 215/70 would rub, 225/70 would rub there for sure. You might squeeze a 215/65 or a 225/60 with stock rims.

Up front, when you turn the wheel, mine are mighty close to the mud guards. So there the limitation is the fender. I think 235/60 would rub with my current offset. 225/65 would probably rub. It's sooooo close, so I could not go any bigger unless it was lifted.

So it would help a tiny bit, but it would not have the impact you're after.

-juice

kens

Ibhaley: Aren't those numbers from C&D's test results?

jb: I agree -- getting bigger tires is going to be a lot cheaper than dropping the transmission.

Ken

ace1000

The car-videos.com figures come from a computer simulation called Cartest 2000 rather than an actual test. There is an explanation of the program in the FAQ link.

The estimated 0-30 time is slower than the C/D figure for the XT and only as good as what C/D achieved with an Enzo Ferrari. So when one of you XT MT owners meets up with an Enzo Ferrari at a stop light, let us know whether you were able to beat it to 30 mph or just keep up with it.

Bob

ateixeira

A mere Enzo Ferrari? That slow? ;-)

I don't think current XT owners will be very happy to hear that, LOL.

-juice

kens

Hmmm. Interesting. The FAQ explains that incorrect 0-60 times can come from:

1) The manufacturer has intentionally or unintentionally published incorrect specifications. The victims of this are usually horsepower and torque, but sometimes it can be gear ratios, axle ratio, electronic speed limiter, etc.

That seems to go against the popular belief that the XT's HP is understated.

Ken

kullenberg

Is it possible to fit the sport shift mechanism to the Forester XT AT? If so, how much of a deal is it, and how expensive do you think it would be? TIA
Cheers
Pat

p0926

Pretty amazing just how close the theoretical numbers generated by Cartest 2000 are to the real-world numbers posted by C&D. I'm still amazed that the XT can get up to speed that quickly. Of course the oh so impressive 235 lb-ft of torque gets the majority of the credit for that. However, I think I'd be willing to "settle" for a 6.5 sec 0-60 in exchange for slightly taller gearing that results in a couple of mpg more on the hwy.

Ken- You're right, kinda shoots Juice's theory down the tubes. I gotta admit though that it never made sense to me why a manufacturer would under report HP numbers. Not in this "my engine is bigger than yours" testosterone fueled era.

-Frank P.

ballistic

p0926 says, "However, I think I'd be willing to "settle" for a 6.5 sec 0-60 in exchange for slightly taller gearing that results in a couple of mpg more on the hwy."

Even if the XT carried 3.9 gears (let alone 4.11), we wouldn't have to give up anywhere near that much performance. An XT with 3.9 gears would still reach 60 in well under 6 seconds, and would still run the quarter in the low 14's at 93-94mph! That level of performance would still be universally acclaimed and applauded. People would be raving about it - and especially about the relaxed, quiet, more-economical freeway cruising. No one would even think of complaining about numbers like those from any car in the Forester's class and price range.

jb

corkfish

Everybody's different, but I would not have bought this car if the acceleration wasn't so exhilerating. I would not have settled for 0 to 60 in 6.5 and probably would have bought a G35 instead. Complaining about gas mileage in a vehicle like this is a little like complaining about gas mileage in a Mustang. Is the mileage that much worse than any other SUV out there? As far as I'm concerned, it fits a great niche. De-tune it and the car is no longer that special.

chassol

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2003-07-24-for- ester_x.htm

stever

Women interested in the Forester "have the most schooling of any Subaru buyers." That means Ladywclass better get to the showroom :-)

(for non-Crew members, LWC has spend a year or two schooling others, not to mention the typing speed schooling she provides in the weekly chats!).

Steve, Host

ateixeira

Sport shift is more than the controller. I'm sure they change the auto tranny's design to handle all that shifting.

Maybe if you found a wrecked 2003 GT auto....

Frank/Ken: could be, I guess. I wonder if gas mileage would be better if they actually did give it 250hp but relaxed the gearing to 4.1:1 or 3.9:1.

But after driving in, hitting the gas in 3rd gear at very low revs, I dunno, it sure felt like more than 210 horses...

USA Today complained about the automatic too, though he focused on shift smoothness. My problem with it was hesitation.

-juice

kens

I also think the XT produces more HP than stated based on my highly calibrated butt-dyno.

Why would Subaru understate the HP on the XT in the time of such HP showmanship? Two models: WRX and STi. It's all about positioning. If you browse over to NASIOC, you can see first hand the WRX enthusiasts that are in denial of the 0-60 numbers.

I buy the fact that 60% of Forester owners are women (smart ones at that!), BUT I think the XT numbers are going to be a bit different especially with the MT. However, given that MT Foresters are relatively rare so the average probably will not even budge.

Ken

chh110

I wanted to get the XT with the giant moon roof, but it only comes with the premium package, which only has the automatic transmission.

What does everyone think about manual vs. automatic transmission with the turbo-charged engine, specifically the performance at high elevations in Colorado (10,000 ft)?

ateixeira

They say 15% of total Forester production will be XTs, or 9k per year. They'll be pretty rare, then.

I was surprised but my salesman at Fitz said they had not sold an XT yet, as of yesterday.

Carrie: if you compare the two trannies on the XT, the 5 speed felt much quicker. It has more ratios, more closely spaced.

The auto hesitates a little to downshift, and has a taller 1st gear. So it's not as fast.

HOWEVER, compare it to the competition, and...wait, there is no competition. Even with the auto it makes the Escape and CR-V seem like slugs. Only the Vue Redline is remotely comparable, and that won't be out until next year.

At elevation, whatever advantage the XT has will only stretch, as normally aspirated engines will wheeze and gasp for air. I have asthma so I know how they must feel! :-)

-juice

ballistic

chh110 asks, "What does everyone think about manual vs. automatic transmission with the turbo-charged engine, specifically the performance at high elevations in Colorado (10,000 ft)?"

I bought a 5-speed XT a month ago, but I also test-drove one with the automatic. If absolute maximum performance is your top priority, get the MT. However, I think the automatic may be the better all-around choice. Its taller gear ratios are better matched to the XT's extremely short 4.44 axles.

jb

ace1000

Has anyone with an automatic XT experienced a problem with the transmission hunting between 3rd and 4th gears when cruising?

nicdmx

Well I finally got around to test driving an XT down in Long Beach this weekend....wow the thing is fast!!! I am having trouble deciding between the auto and the manual however. The manual seemed like it would be hard to drive in traffic due to the fact that it is somewhat jerky in first if you are trying to do anything except accelerate quickly (what it does best). Does anyone have any experience with this and could lend their opinion as to driving a manual like this in SoCal traffic?

ballistic

The shift from 1st to 2nd on my MT XT is more difficult to make smoothly than just about any other manual transmission car I've ever owned. This is in part because of the huge gap between 1st and 2nd (77%) and in part because of the absurdly low axle ratio (4.44). For a car with performance like this to redline in 1st at only about 31mph is ridiculous.

jb

ballistic

But no earth-shaking new revelations.

http://www.fyilondon.com/wheels/

ballistic

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/autos/reviews/subaru/story/11632- 79p-1386193c.html

ballistic

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/classifieds/automotive/6233861- .htm

ateixeira

That 2nd article just used Subaru's official estimate for 0-60. I'd like to see a few more instrumented tests.

The other two articles didn't even mention it.

-juice

ballistic

http://www.motorists.org/ericpeters/foresterxt.html

This one does mention 0-60 - 6 seconds. Did the writer lift this from SOC's 0-60 kph in 6.1? Who knows?

lbhaley

Looks like the XT that the tester drove was not a good example. He complained about lack of smoothness and turbo lag! These are two things that almost all the other XT tests praised. Cars do vary. That's why is mandatory to drive the actual car that you are buying before signing on the dotted line.

I don't understand why some people think that Foresters are ugly. As small UTE styling goes, I think the Forester is one of the better looking designs. The Pontiac Aztec is ugly, the Forester is not.

I stopped by the Subaru dealer this weekend and asked my salesman how XTs are selling. He said there is not yet as much interest as he had expected. I am kind of suprised to hear that. I am on the east coast and near sea level. maybe XTs will sell better at higher elevations. The more I drive mine the better I like it.

lfdal

Not sure if this is the best place for posting this, but was wondering how accurate other XT shoppers have found the Edmunds's invoice price for the XT's to be when going shopping?
I know its generally pretty accurate, but I'm getting a lot of "Their price is way to low" from my local Subaru dealers. I Suspect that they're just trying to get a higher markup over invoice. I can live with that if they just tell me up front. Yeah, I know they're car salesmen.....
Any input appreciated.
Larry

ateixeira

Forester is not as tall as people expect it to be. The rear window is also very low for better visibility. From the rear view, it almost looks like an SUV that is kneeling down so passengers can get in easily (or so it does not roll over).

It's not ugly by any means, just utilitarian. Function over form.

-juice

ballistic

Larry: Invoice is invoice. If you check each of the various new-car research sites (edmunds, carsdirect, autosite, autos.yahoo, kelleybluebook, autotrader, and a host of others) you get the exact same invoice prices (and MSRP) everywhere. The only thing one must be cautious about is to make certain whether the destination charge is or is not included.

If I encountered a dealer who claimed that my 'invoice price' is "way too low", I'd go back with detailed printouts from three or four different sites, and say "OK, show me where these are all wrong". Or I'd point him to the website, cars101.com . This is maintained by a Seattle Subaru dealer, and provides complete MSRP and invoice pricing detail for all new Subarus.

dcm61

The dealer's invoice usually has an advertising fee that is charged to the dealer by Subaru. IIRC, my '03 Outback that I bought last August in SE PA had a $125 advertising fee. This particular fee is a legimate charge and is usually not included on the car research sites.

DaveM

stever

Please report on your buying experience here:

Subaru Forester: Prices Paid & Buying Experience

(let us know that it's the XT Turbo flavor too - thanks!)

Steve, Host

ballistic

"my '03 Outback that I bought last August in SE PA had a $125 advertising fee. This particular fee is a legimate charge and is usually not included on the car research sites."

I would not regard an 'advertising fee' as legitimate. I paid no such add-on for the XT I bought a month ago. I paid straight invoice price, exactly as published on the various websites (including cars101.com, operated by a Seattle Subaru dealer), plus dealer cost for each option I chose, plus exactly $100 over invoice.

jb

dcm61

I paid straight invoice which in SE PA has an advertising fee that is charged to the dealer.

DaveM

ateixeira

It's possible you are both correct, and that it varies by region. For instance, all cars destined to the NE go through a different distributor, and prices do differ from those in DC, for instance.

-juice

dcm61

It probably does differ by region. I have a copy of the actual invoice and this was a bonafide dealer invoice charge, not a dealer made up "pad the profit" charge. FWIW, I'm in the Penn Jersey region of Subaru of America distribution. Further north of PA (not sure where the line is) they are distributed by Subaru of New England which is a whole different animal.

DaveM

lfdal

Unfortunately, Subaru of New England is the one I'm dealing with.....

Larry