Subaru XT Turbo Forester

miamixt

everything happens so quickly in the XT, it's the Torque that's the killer! However it is a trade off, at higher Freeway Speeds you will notice a second or two of Lag before you hear the Turbo Whine, no "Roar". The big difference the "Roar" at higher speeds is the WRX STI Buzzing by!

corkfish

The 444:1 gearing also helps overcome lag.

edunnett

I notice a bit of lag on my '04 Forester XT. However, it's not nearly as bad as the '02 WRX's. The difference is in the lower range torque as others mention. The low range torque carries you over until you are at in the RPM range where you can feel the turbo. Torque on the F-XT is 235 ft-pls at 3600 RPM but (I hate to say it) on the Legacy GT it's 250. I'd bet you'd be less happy with the turbo lag in the Forester if you were disappointed in the GT. :-\ If you were test driving an automatic, I would think the lag might be more apparant though. In a manual, at least you can control the RPM and gearing better, taking more advantage of the torque. (Legacy GT also kicks us in HP - 210 compared to 250.
Elissa

hypov

Legacy GT also kicks us in HP - 210 compared to 250.

Actually, the F-XT puts out more than the literature and same as the GT.

-Dave

bobshere1

MTNGAL: I drove an Outback before giving FXT a go. I thought the Outback (these are '04 I'm talking about) handled better in the twisties. Nevertheless I got FXT knowing I could cure this fault with different tires. It worked very well indeed! My FXT has Plus Sized wheels (Rota SDR) [17 inch] and MUCH better all-weather Falken Ziex 512 tires. The addition of a ~$100 STi rear anti-swaybar was the icing on this cake. I'm not a performance nut, but I did go for FXT's performance over Outback. These changes brought handling up to the other capabilities of FXT. With these small mod's I wouldn't think about an Outback over an FXT. I'm not sure I'd even go for a Turbo Legacy either.

          Bob

PS: Has anyone heard of a Legacy GT out-running an FXT? I haven't. Subaru's own adverts had FXT faster with 0-60 @ 5.3 seconds (same as Car and Driver's review).

ateixeira

The Forester's engine has less boost but spools up a bit quicker. Drive it with the 5 speed and you won't really sense any significant lag.

With the auto you notice it more, but it's still quicker than you'd ever really need a vehicle to be. If you compare automatics, the Legacy has a 5 speed and it might match the Forester XT.

Remember something, on the dyno the Forester XT is making 240-250 hp, the Legacy about 260. Torque is also only about 10 lb-ft behind on the dyno (not some marketing brochure).

When you factor in weight, the Forester probably has a better power/weight ratio, which is why it's quicker. C&D had it 4 tenths ahead to 60, about the same amount ahead at the 1/4 mile too.

Both are just plain stupid-fast, I can't imagine even thinking they'd be lacking in the acceleration dept.

-juice

once_for_all

doesn't get the mpg of the Outback XT, despite being lighter in weight. Lots of factors here, my guess is that the 5 EAT is a more efficient transmission, but on the other hand the Outback manual XT gets better mpg too.

John

ateixeira

Forester is very short geared. Mileage improved for 2005, too.

-juice

lark6

Don't forget aerodynamics: aquiline Outback XT vs. bricklike Forester XT.

Ed

samiam_68

The FXT manual gearing is 4.11, not 4.44, AFAIK. Here are some data fot the FXT-MT:

Tire Information
Tire P-nbr (MM) 215
Tire Ratio 60%
Tire Inner Diameter (in.) 16
Tire Outer Circumference (in.) 82.17614799
Tire RPM/mile 800.2322037

Conversion Factors
MM/Inch 25.4
Inch/Foot 12
Feet/mile 5480

Redline 6500

Gearing Ratios
Final Drive 4.11
Gear# Ratio Factor MPH@1000RPM RPM@60MPH MAX MPH
1st 3.55 0.0686 5.15 11659.34 33.45
2nd 2.11 0.1153 8.65 6939.69 56.20
3rd 1.45 0.1678 12.58 4768.98 81.78
4th 1.09 0.2232 16.74 3584.96 108.79
5th 0.78 0.3119 23.39 2565.38 152.02

These numbers match what I observe on the speedo and the tach.

bluesubie

The FXT might handle better than the Bean, but not the OBXT IMO.

Even with the STi swaybar on my FXT, I felt the OBXT had less lean and better handling. Probably a combination of the 17's and a tighter suspension. I'm sure when I get 17's my FXT will handle better.

-Dennis

boomerbubba

Feet/mile 5480

That is an interesting conversion unit. Statute miles are 5,280 feet where I live.

5th 0.78 0.3119 23.39 2565.38 152.02

What did yours feel like at 152 mph? I thought the governor kicked in at 129.

samiam_68

5480 must be a typo. I found these numbers on some tech web site and just cut and pasted. I did more searching, and there are conflicting specs - some sites have 4.11, some 4.44. Don't know which is right.
By matching, I meant only at some speeds, i.e. at 60 the actual RPM are about 2500, at 70 about 3000, at 80 about 3500.
C&D lists it at 4.44. These guys have it at 4.11 - I'm confused now...
http://www.engine-power.com/subaru/forester_2.5xt.html

ateixeira

That site is run by a teenager that I met at NAIAS. It's not guys, it's guy. )

I think the X/XS is 4.11:1, but I thought the XT was way up there around 4.7:1.

-juice

corkfish

Once again, here's the C&D article clearly highlightling the 444:1 ratio. Perhaps they de-tuned it for the 2005 models. Too bad for them!

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_- id=6854&page_number=4

ateixeira

Stop teasing me. 20 lead-foot mpg and 5.3 seconds to 60.

Amazing.

-juice

troop2shos

With my FXT AT, I notice the lag much more from a standing start with temps in the 90's+ or due to heat soak...can't wait for cooler weather to wake it back up.

Any timed test is subject to many factors, but R&T just came out with a comparison test between the TSX & the Legacy GT Ltd. - both MT's. In this test, the GT posted a 0-60 time of 5.6 turning the 1/4 in 14.3 at 96.2 mph. There are reports elsewhere breaking into the 13's with a stock GT.

p0926

Did I mention lately that my overall mpg avg is up to 24.1 now :-)

-Frank

ateixeira

All righty, STOP IT! ;-)

-juice

gotsprings12

After reading all these posts I am leaning away from the Legacey GT and towards modding the Forester. Sway bar and new tires huh... I could do that.

dsjeepti

Just got back from local Auto Mall and they got in a trade for a black 04 XT Auto, Premium Pkg. and several other cosmetic add-ons. It has 2K on it and looks new. Dealer is about to send to auction as they feel they can get more for it that way (not a Subaru dealership). They were asking $22,900 but will likely take $21,000. This puts me in XS price range. My concern is with how it was broken in, know one but previous owner would know this. I will try to test drive tomorrow (up on a storage lift for transport to auction). Does this sound like a good deal or should I stick to new?

Any comments would be appreciated,
DS

edunnett

A friend of mine recently purchased a new civic that was involved in a serious accident in its second week; the accident bent the frame, sent off the airbags, etc. He had it repaired since the insurance company wouldn't total it out. On his way home from the repair shop the check engine and check airbag lights went on and the engine started smoking. Figuring this car was permanently effected by the accident, he traded it in with only about 1000 miles on it, before the accident hit car fax. No one was the wiser at that point in time. The dealer didn't question why he was trading up after only 1000 miles and some poor soul bought that POS car.

I would be worried that your lightly used F-XT might have befallen a similar fate. If you cannot take it to an independent shop for a THOUROUGH once over before making a decision, I'd be inclined to avoid it and ask yourself why they are auctioning off or selling for $21K a car that has a retail blue book of $25K or private party value of $22K. Check the carfax report. Call DMV. Have it inspected someplace else and don't be rushed or you could regret it. Make sure you know the original purchase date, warranty information, ask for an extended warranty for free ;-), you should see the title (make sure it's not salvage) first too.

Good luck! I hope it's just a super good deal and you get a great, inexpensive Forester!

Elissa

miamixt

Something seems wrong with a current Year model winding up with the "Beaters" and "Wreckers"? Sure the Sales Person might of told you that to jump quicker. Personally I would not want a used XT, mine came with 30 Miles of use, and I figure about 30 people tried it before me, even my XT was damaged or defective ( Rack & Pinion). And the XT is driven hard by 9 out of 10 XT owners, perhaps that is why my average mileage is now 16?

dsjeepti

Dealer actually says they move out low mileage used cars to auction since in this part of Brooklyn, they sell more lower priced cars. This Auto Mall carries Toyotas, Hondas, Acuras, and Mazdas. I was looking at the M6 wagon and liked the XT better. The salesman pulled me over to the used lot yesterday to look at the "just traded in XT" It was dark and rainy so I couldn't see it that well. I took my wife by today, only to hear it was going to auction and was already moved to the lot down the street. I left when I couldn't easily get into the car. I may test drive tomorrow if it's not gone.

I too agree that a low mileage used car is risky, especially a high performance turbo. I believe in cautiously breaking in a car. I will only test drive (hard) a vehicle I won't actually be getting. When ready to purchase, I'll come back and lightly drive the one I plan to get.

The price is what got me. Manager claims this trade in for a Highlander was due to space needs and the XT was in great shape. He claims to have paid 20,500 or so for it. To good to be true?

miamixt

I thought it is a good idea to drive a crummy Car in the City? I was told this by my Friend who took me from Newark to JFK in his Forester. The same Friend who told me not to go Turbo, you don't need it. I think of him every time my Turbo kicks in! You mentioned an Auto Mall & Brooklyn. If you see the name POTAMKIN, run, don't walk to the next Mall! Good luck with your XT purchase, at Work tonight mine was Sandwiched between a CRV and a RAV 4, and the Forester stands out, it's so tiny!

corkfish

CARFAX may be able to shed some light on it.

edunnett

As per my story above, I think carfax can get their information too late to be of use to this buyer. I checked for 4 weeks after my neighbor nearly totalled his Civic to see what carfax reported for the aibag deployment, DMV report, etc - nothing. It's been two months now, maybe it's shown up at this point.

stever

You can add the information to the Carfax report yourself, but you have to buy the report first before you can submit the info (link).

Damage reports (minor wrecks?) are only available from certain states, so that may be one reason Carfax isn't reporting this particular accident (link). Major wrecks usually result in the title getting branded and Carfax reports those (link), but the turn around time depends on how fast the DMV is.

Steve, Host

njswamplands

its the perfect size for nyc as i continue to shuttle in and out of the city for my friend who is taping today for the millionaire show. accelerates great to make those openings in traffic. squeezes nice between the cabbie, buses and horse carriages. great for parking. excellent visibility. stops quickly. that acceleration on the rainy roads without tire spin is a great confidence.

perfect car to be in gotham with.

bluesubie

Just get home before Ivan leftovers arrive. It's unfortunate that everyone doesn't drive a Subaru! Probably gonna be a long commute.

-Dennis

once_for_all

sounds like the FXT would make a great Bat mobile too. LOL.

John

njswamplands

lol it is black, hmmmmmmm.

njswamplands

doubt it, got broadway tickets for tonight. so bring on that highwater, da batmobile is ready.

this car is just so rock solid in bad weather. my first awd and i am never going to buy another vehicle without.

coming home Wed around 19.10 it took 45 minutes to go 6 blocks. greatest city in the world, hahahahaha.

edunnett

My point being, no owner of a previously wrecked car is going to add that to their carfax report so that the new buyer can be better informed.

stever

lol, good point. I could see doing it for a lemon return or buy-back since some of those don't get reported.

Guess you still need a mechanic to look a used car over and check for new paint and bent frames.

Steve, Host

edunnett

I want to start using synthetic (Amsoil or Mobil1) in my XT when it hits the 10,500 mile oil change interval. I have read on other Subie forums ( to remain nameless ;-) that while Subaru requires 5W30 viscosity oil in the engine, that synthetic 5W30 is actually too thin at startup and won't offer enough protection for the engine. I've visited Amsoil's site and used the product application guide - that recommends 5W30 too. Any thoughts here on why 5W30 synthetic would be a bad choice for the XT when it's driven in temps between 10 degrees and 110 degrees?

One more add-on question - I also want to start using synthetic in my 1986 Civic too and would love to use the same viscosity as the F-XT. But I'm worried that a 5W will be too thin for the Civic's engine and won't protect on startup when driven in temps from 50 degrees to 110 degrees. It might need something more of a 10W30 for that? Thoughts?

Elissa

samiam_68

DO NOT use syn oil on an old car such as your 86 Civic. Syn oil will literally clean out the engine, and open up all kinds of oil leaks that are currently sealed by the crud buildup from the regular dino oil.
I had that experience once. Lesson learned - start using Syn early (before 30K miles), or don't use it at all.

miamixt

What about a 5W/30 Synthetic Blend? I was told only to use Synthetic Oil, and then I find out it's a Saab blend, whatever?

Elissa, you remember how bad you felt getting some Free Service attention from your Dealer. Now that they know you, let them do the Oil Change, perhaps they will send you a Coupon. When I was a Kid I would do anything to save Money, now that I'm not a Kid, and have some Money, the last thing I want to do is work on my Car. I concentrate on keeping the Black XT Shiny & clean which is very hard when it Rains every Day, and my Leather loves the Lexol attention I am giving it!

edunnett

Now that they know you, let them do the Oil Change, perhaps they will send you a Coupon.

What the heck do you think I bought an 86 Civic for?! I LOVE working on cars! Love it love it love it! When I change the oil on the Subie, I get a chance to check out the exhaust, CV boots, look for little leaks... it was through changing the oil on my last Subie that I spotted the leaking oil pump, piston pin access hole cover, drive axle joint, water pump, etc. I get to learn a lot about my car down there. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. But thanks for the suggestion :-)

Elissa

lucien2

My XT was great in Gotham too. And since I drive around Baltimore, all day, the XT has turned out to be exactly the excellent urban fighter I thought it would be

dsjeepti

I finally got to drive (with wife) the used XT. Had 2,300 on odo. From outside, there were noticeable swirl marks, I assume from waxing the black paint. Also had a few minor surface scratches on side and on rear hatch. Had one bruise on rear bumper (size of quarter) that was likely from parking. Interior was fine except for small scratch on arm extension. Dealer was willing to compound the scratches (couldn't help with bumper).
Once on the road, the engine was smooth and powerful. Wife loved the power too. Auto shifted smoothly (no jerky downshift as I found on a new "X" I last tried). Sales person let me take it for an extended drive (about 30 min.)couldn't go past 50 mph due to traffic. The only real deal breaker, besides not knowing how it was "broken in" was that there was a definite creek in the moonroof. I mentioned this to the salesman and he said he would have their shop spray some silicone or something to alleviate that. It was for me a real issue as it was constant with every bump (in NYC, that's often). Didn't notice when roof was open though. I didn't see the Carfax but dealer says they ran one and it was clean.
So I left reluctantly, not sure what to do. It's supposed to go to auction tomorrow. Judging by the amount of (minor) surface damage, could this XT have had it'd odometer rolled back? Went to local new dealer and could get same car in silver for 24,800, after $1250 rebate (about $300 below invoice). Is it worth the extra $3800 for new 04? Like the electric seats in 05, but not worth the $800 more in MSRP, as price will put me out of XT territory.

Going crazy in NY,
Dan

paisan

Dan when you get one, let me know we should hookup tons of little things you can do to your XT when you get it

-mike

edunnett

the fact that there are minor surface scratches does sort of rule out a major recent accident. if it had just been fixed up by a body shop, you wouldn't see evidence of use. that, at least, is a good thing. for $20 you should do yourself a favor and run the carfax too. perhaps the "going to auction tomorrow" was a sale tactic to give you urgency to buy. you should never be rushed into spending $20K+. If you can't fee certain about in the time you have, let it pass you buy. Buyers remorse is a terrible thing when we're talking that much money.
elissa

miamixt

first, there is no such thing as a lightly used XT. More likely an abused XT. Second the Mileage Indicator is troubling, 2500 Miles tells me the Car might have been out of service for a while? Go for a new 2004, even though I see an 05 in your future?
Glad to see you noticed a Rattle in the Moonroof, that is one of the common complaints with this Model. Oh and HAL, the Auto Climate Computer will drive you nuts!

frog

Get a new subie. Check around other dealerships for pricing-may be worth driving to a state such as NH? where there is no sales tax. Not worth the risk in my opinion. Also, wait a few months and go for the 05! Enjoy.

bluesubie

During a trip to SC in July, I got a very loud knock when I started the engine during 100F ambient temps. I don't know for sure if it was the oil (M1 5W30), but I won't use that again in the summer. The temp. chart in the manual shows that 5W30 is ok up to about 104F and M1 is thinner at operating temp than some conventional oils.

The manual says that 5W30 is "preferred" for best mileage and goes on to say that a higher visocsity oil (10W30, 10W40) is required to properly lubricate the engine in hot weather.

Between Amsoil and Mobil1, Amsoil 100% synthetic is the thicker oil during high temps (comparing cSt @ 100º C).
M1 5W30 http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-3- - - - 0.asp
Amsoil XL7500 (Group III like Syntec)
http://www.amsoil.com/products/xlf.htm
Amsoil 100% synthetic
http://www.amsoil.com/products/asl.html

-Dennis

edunnett

Thanks Dennis - what will you be putting in your car from now on? -elissa

bluesubie

I picked up German made Syntec 0W30, which is different than the U.S. stuff. It's even thicker at operating temp than the Amsoil 5W30 above and is great for low temps. I'm not sure if I'll keep it or not because I don't recall seeing the API starburst.

In the summer, I'll use M1 10W30 (at minimum) or I may try the M1 5W40 (Truck & SUV).

-Dennis

pon1

Sorry for slow reply, been offline for a couple of weeks.

Canadian 2004 XTs have a 1500 manufacturers incentive if you dont take Subaru finance, plus you should be easily able to split the difference on invoice vs MSRP. You need to get at least 3000 off MSRP.....

I'd expect something extra special for those 200kms, and the fact that the 2004 is still around.

JP

milashka

test drove a Subaru this weekend. Fell in love with the car, although I think they could definitely make it look better.
made a "mistake" of test driving an XT in addition to the X, and now I want the XT. The biggest problem to me is the gas mileage. From what I understand, I will need premium fuel (is that the top or mid grade?), and also the mpg's of the XT are so much lower than my Mazda Protege's. But I got to admit that I loved the feeling of power in this car. I did not get to go on the highway, but even as I pushed off from standing position, I could feel that it was so much more powerful and responsive than the base X. I also love the seat warmers/heated mirrors...
Here's my dilemma. We're a new family, expecting a child (that's why I love Subaru's safety features), and in need of saving money for a house. The 2004 FX is being offered to us right now at 18,995 (no hassle) with no miles on it. These cars are branded by Subaru as environmentally damaged (the dealer claims that that's a gimmick to get rid of the 2004's). The only thing is that due to this claim, the paint warranty is voided. But the car is being sold at $1000 below invoice.
The 2004 XT has 6k miles on it. It was a loaner to Enterprise. The dealer listed it at 21,995, since I participate in a discount program, he is offering it to me at 20,790.
I am torn. On one hand, I want the added power and comfort features. On the other hand, with my tendency to get carried away (ie speed) and the increased price of gas, maybe the base model is more of what I need. Plan on using the car mostly for commuting (stop and go), and some road trips. Plus the additional 2K price tag.
So what would you do in my place?

Also, if I do decide to go with the base model, where should I look for well priced aftermarket parts? (would like to add those seat warmers, you know )
Thanks,
Olga