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Comments
-Dennis
Now, where do I start?
Lucien - Great info - Thanks. Actually, I am planning on keeping it as stock as possible, and just enhance the responsiveness of the vehicle as a whole.
I know these engines are severely overengineered and understressed in an FXT, I just want to release a few extra ponies, without adversely affecting liveability and reliability.
Thanks for the tire info - I'll probably run Nokian WR's, 225/60-16 on the O.E. rims as my year-round tires, and get snows (Nokian 'natch!) mounted on O.E. steel 15" rims.
MiamiXT - I can't find my doc's at the moment, but I will say that after I joined the Sales dept, they asked me if I wanted to see what I REALLY paid for the car - I declined!
Actually, they let me know that although they made "a little" money (through "hidden" profit areas), that I actually paid "less than $500 over invoice".
I was satisfied with that.
Basically I have really learned that cars Sales is a tough gig. Instead of deriding car salespeople, please appreciate that they are hard-working people, just trying to get by.
I also learned that a buyer should do as their homework on the car, and come to the dealership armed with info.
As far a getting a good deal? Basically, if you are around $500 over generally published "Invoice" (average of 3) price, you'll get a good deal and everyone will be happy.
My best suggestions for (potential) customers:
Do your homework before you go shopping.
Prepare to be greeted the moment you get out of the car.
Be nice to the salesman, but direct; Tell him what car(s) you are interested and essential basics (auto trans, leather, sunroof, color, etc).
Prepare to get "turned" to another salesman, in order to try to close the sale - This is not in and of itself a BAD thing, just go with the flow.
If you are ready to buy, say so! The salesman will appreciate it, and the statement will have NO IMPACT on your negotiations.
When you get to the booth you'll get a credit app, even if you state that you will pay by cash; The store uses it to collect all of your info, etc. If you actually ARE paying in cash, simply instruct them to NOT run a credit check (although they probably will anyway if you are paying by personal check).
Now, since you've done your homework, you can simply make an offer of "$500 over this price".
Remember that an auto dealer is a business like any other (including one's own employer), so they are entitled to make a fair profit, and need to keep the doors open for service, warranty claims, etc, as well also paying the corporate hq all sorts of costs for advertising, lease, etc.
I think in general, $500 over generally published Invoice price is fair to both the buyer and the dealer.
The entire process is an ordeal for the salespeople and the buyer - It helps if everyone is clear and direct with each other.
Bob - No, I didn't think of copying and pasting until about page 260...
D'Oh!!
Yes - An STi rear swaybar will be the very first mod, following tires. I had heard (read?) about problems with the O.E. end links, so I'll get aftermarket items. Suggestions?
I'm sticking with O.E. so it appears fully stock.
Actually, I prefer to use O.E. upgrade parts whenever possible to ensure reliability & compatibility.
As far as track time/driving schools I couldn't agree more!
Although my life-long passion has been auto racing, I seem to missed my calling. I have not thus far been able to attend any advanced driving/racing schools, although I do have quite a bit of tracktime & training for motorcycle roadracing, as well as military police training for high-speed pursuit, VIP defense/protection, evasive driving, etc.
I was stationed in Germany for 6 years, where I acquired extensive high-speed dring on the autobahns, and of course dabbled on many of the racetracks over there, including Nurburgring, Spa, Hockenheimring and Assen, as well as many smaller local racetracks sprinkled throughout the country.
I won't get started on my soapbox about lane discipline and tiered-licensing!
I'm a 40ish guy who has learned to appreciate speed and power, but also wise enough to do it safely, and to "fly under the radar"!
Thanks again guys - I'll be out of town for a couple days, but i'll get caught up when I get back!
Does your trailer have brakes?
Thanks again,
Don Luce
Thanks,
Don Luce
"The 2.5 Liter turbo engine is designed to operate using premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 AKI or higher. If premium unleaded gasoline is not available, regular unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 87 AKI or higher may be temporarily used. For optimum engine performance and driveability, it is recommended that you use premium grade unleaded gasoline."
You could probably get away with midgrade for a while. But really, it only adds up to a couple hundred dollars more per year to run the *correct* fuel. It's worth it.
If you're worried about the fuel costs, perhaps the normally-aspirated Foresters (X, XS) would be more suitable.
-Brian
A quick glance shows this survey to be very negative, and it doesn't differentiate between problems that may have been caused by dealer prep as opposed to coming from the factory. It smacks of "Well, besides that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"
Ed
John
Personally, I can't concur with a "fair" profit of $500. Sure, I agree you do need a profit. A loss drives you out of business. But my understanding is that the real money in dealerships is not made in sales, but service, finanacing, etc.
The "fair" profit is purely a function of supply/demand for each vehicle. Some go "under invoice" and some are marked up over MSRP. I got my FXT for $200 under invoice. I didn't feel like I was driving the dealership out of business by negotiating hard.
Yes, I did my research. And I SHOPPED the car. Others may not have the time or energy to do this. I was more concerned with not buying another vehicle like the Explorer I was getting rid of (3 transmissions, first required @55k miles) and buying something I could enjoy and keep for many years (I don't turn over my cars and always pay cash for them).
Cheers,
Bob
PS: GOOD LUCK IN YOUR NEW JOB !!!!
The XT's endlinks are very similar to the STi's. IIRC, all of the problems that I've seen have been with swaybars other than the STi.
-Dennis
Regardless, I love the new car. Just wanting to make sure they were being honest with me...
Also, dealer incentives can be used in many way, often they use them to pay for advertising ("Great deals on left over 2004s").
$500 under sounds good, that's basically the entire holdback. Whatever incentives they had pays for the ads, the salesman's commission, and maybe there are about 3 cents left for the dealer's profit. ;-)
-juice
The salesmen are the ones getting the pennies!
Anywho,
I'm back - We just did a 602 mile overnight roadtrip from Portland to Seattle and back.
First long roadtrip with the XT- Abolutely no problems.
('05 XT PP Auto)
I know that rattles and fuel mileage have been two hot topics here for some time.
My findings:
All of the rattles and other noises from everything packed in the car for such a distance (or more), especially on quite a bit of old/chewed-up pavement, quickly drowned out any actual sounds from the structure of the car itself. Decision: Moot for me.
On the other hand, I noted a moderate amount of exterior wind noise at 70ish, due undoubtedly to the blocky shape that we love so much. Decision: Worth it for the way it looks. Especially the (functional) hood scoop! :-)
Fuel mileage: 602 miles of roughly 80% freeway with the CC set for "70ish" (67-73 to suit the conditions), and 20% surface streets and traffic of the general Seattle area.
Also included about 10-12 miles of actual stop-and-go conditions.
Occasional moderate to near-w/o acceleration to merge onto packed freeways and such. Perhaps 4-5 incidents total.
The car was loaded with 2 adults, 60# dog and toddler, with sufficient clothes and other supplies for all for a several-day trip (loaded, in other words).
Total final calculation, for all mileage was: 24.6.
I had removed the crossbars, and set the tires at 38psi/F, 37psi/R.
I'm satisfied with that.
It seems fairly good compared to some others here, and it's improved significantly from a terrible 13mpg on the first tank.
My around-town mpg seems to be settling on 20ish.
The car now has 2124 miles, as of returning to the garage tonight (where the odo had been zeroed before starting the trip), so it had 1522 miles when I started out.
I broke it in moderately aggresively, but not abusively, and did the first oil change at 500 miles.
Based on what I've read here, I've tried to accelerate fairly briskly to 3000rpm, then cruise. I seem to recall scientists way back in the 70's concluded the same strategy for best mpg.
I generally drive briskly, but smoothly. Safely but with purpose and focus.
Conclusions:
All in all, not quite as good long-road-trip car as the '01 Leg GT, but much more nimble and entertaining in dense urban traffic. Pretty good feedback without being tiring. very agile and athletic feeling - feels like it wants you to play Petter Solberg!
Fun car, and I do not regret my decision to get it.
That's my update!
ps - I didn't think I'd find much value in the seat heaters, they turned out to be very effective at reducing our back strain, even (especially?) with the A/C on.
I don't think we'll ever own another car without them!
Ah ha! Yet another convert who's discovered the secret benefit to having seat heaters :-)
-Frank
I live in Houston and didn't think I would ever use the seat heaters. I guess I will give them a try.
Thanks again.
-James
-Frank
Welll then you don't know what you're missing ;-) Seriously though, lumbar support is certainly important but it's very common for folks past a certain age to get stiff backs after sitting for a prolonged period of time (regardless of how comfortable/supportive the seat is) and that's where the seat heaters help out.
-Frank
-Frank
I guess a better salesman would have said... "sure its called the Forester XT."
I have been driving a 95 Acura Integra GS for the last 9 years. My job has changed to the point where I need a little more room. The WRX wagon seemed like a natural step up, or maybe lateral.
What I was looking for is...
Better foul weather handeling = All Wheel Drive
More space but not SUV like = Wagon might be nice, but the Forester seems better.
More Scoot = 200 something horses with a Turbo.
Still trying to get a test drive. My local dealer is annoying. Won't let me drive because he claims... "hes (refering to me), not serious." NEXT SALESMAN PLEASE!
I drove the WRX wagon and was not thrilled. Liked it but wasn't really... "my car", you guys know. Drove the WRX Sedan and it was a step up from my Integra but had less cargo space. Drove great thou.
Waited for the Turbo Legacy to come out. Drove the GT sedan and was all but sold. I mean I really liked driving the car. If I had to pick a car based on what I wanted with no regard for work.... this was the car. Everything about it felt right. Alas I HAVE TO WORK!
Decided to look into the Forester after waiting several months for a Legacy with the color and options I wanted to come in.
Coworker, one I actually harbor some respect for. Really got on my back about getting a larger vehicle. I was very limited by what I could haul around if if I needed too. The biggest issue being snow. when it snowed the ACURA stays at home. I have had bad experances in the snow with it. Infact I was more comfortable driving the old 91 Accord LX in the snow.
So I have been very interested in and following all the discussions about the Forester here. I have started reading about the mods and access ports and sway bars and and and... I spend too much time in research mode.
When I went to my local to drive a Forester... they ignored me. I MEAN IGNORED ME. I was there with my girlfriend who is the most impulsive person I know. We spent 45 mins staring at the website listings at there showroom with ZERO help. We were glad handed and told to sit over there... HOW SWEET! She bought a CRV that afternoon.
I don't like leather. i don't like maintaining things that should be fine on there own. I wanted a sunroof thou.
So I was looking for a Forester XT with a Sunroof and Cloth.... ERRRR WRONG ANSWER. They don't have a XT with Cloth and Moonroof. Moonroof is on the XS BEAN AND PREMIUM. Want a Tubo you get leather... crap! Ohh well. Would have been nice if the 4 dealers I visited had told me that you can't get that combo.
JIM DELGADO. Emails me and says... sorry but they don't actually make a XT with a moonroof and cloth. THANK YOU JIM! Why can't you be at a closer dealership to me!
Mind you I have only driven a 2000 Forester non turbo. It is my friends and I drove it around arlington to pick up his friends for the party.
I could get in the new forester and just hate it! Could be the worst match for me and my driving habits ever. Looks great on screen, err paper thou. I really wanted to track down the car I wanted. So if I really liked it... just pay for it that day.
What I thought I wanted
White, Manual, Turbo, MoonRoof, CLOTH!
After market plans... bigger tires to handle my bad habits like turning late.
GPS as I drive EFD for work.
Access port to tune up the engine and get better Gas Milage and Power. (doesn't yet work with 05s?)
Sway bars to minimize the rolleffect... remember I have been driving a low to the ground car for nearly 10 years.
The Cloth thing is a maintainance thing. I get in the car wet all the time. I want to take Kyaking back up and this will add to those occasions. I also play competative sports 2 to 3 times a week at night. Just think that leather would be trouble for me. Whipe that up... conditioning blah blah blah.
Want the roof. never use my AC in my Integra and just about always use my roof to vent the car. Just a habit.
White color... white looks fine covered with dust and dirt. I am not a go out and wash my car everyother day sort of guy. Scratches are not so obvious on white painted cars. How would one of the silvers do with this...?
Wich should I give up... moonroof or leather? Cost is not the issue. Convienance and durability is.
I too was dissappointed at first with the low gas mileage, but now with 17,000 miles on the car, i routinely get 25+ mpg with fairly aggressive driving. In the past year of driving i have had zero mechanical problems with my car, but lately have noticed some increasing harshness when the tranny shifts between 2nd and 3rd. This seems to go away after the car has been driven for about 10 miles, so i'll watch this to see if it gets any worse since others have had tranny problems. The only other issue i have had with my car during the past year is a design flaw with the tires and mudflaps. After driving my car one day on roads that had been sanded due to icy conditions, the sides of the car had been sandblasted down to the primer because the front tires are to big for the fender design and the mudflaps are too small! The dealer replaced all of the side moldings on the car, then i had 3M clear protective sheets put on the sides and replaced the front mudflaps with aftermarket ones that were bigger which solved this problem.
I'm not to thrilled with the climate control system, never seems like its easy to regulate the temp, and the wind noise is a bit much from the roof racks, but other than those two things, the car is about perfect for me. I have been fairly hard on the XT this past year with many truck passes that required foot to the floor redline power, driven through three foot of snow, many icy roads, and have also enjoyed quite a few blast to over 110 mph! My Forester XT has never let me down, runs better than ever, and still puts a smile on my face every time i drive it!
The moonroof prevents the feeling of driving in a cave & helps illuminate the instrument cluster.
Going to larger rims & tires could increase the unsprung weight & reduce acceleration. If snow is a real concern for you, going to wider tires will spread the vehicle weight over a larger tire contact patch, increase rolling resistance & reduce traction.
Having driven many sports cars & performance sedans over a lot of years, the suspension on the XT is very good stock & IMO, needs nothing. Adding the rear swaybar will increase roll stiffness & could get away from you at the limit if you're not prepared for it...I have no problems in getting oversteer with the stock suspension. If you regularly participate in auto-x's, then the rear bar may be of use but not on the street or the track. I also appreciate the XT's long travel suspension. I would drive the XT for awhile before you consider adding any suspension mods - all it needs is better tires.
My son drives a silver XT cloth & it's a good color on this vehicle.
I recommend you get the moonroof. Even though you can get an aftermarket one it won't be nearly as big as the OE moonroof. In fact if you're deadset on cloth upholstery, you can go the aftermarket route for it (won't help your resale value though). I think a more practical option might be to just get seat covers for the front seats. Of course you realize that many people consider leather to actually be lower maintenance and more durable than cloth?
IRT color... silver is perhaps even better than white at hiding dirt but both are good choices.
-Frank
LOL! You're kidding right? Yes the moonroof is huge but even without it the Forester has more glass area than the just about anything else on the road.
-Frank
My Troop. has more glass surface area (especially with its large moonroof) & it's nice having the square surface area for improved visibility.
I guess I still miss my old British sports car rag-tops & don't like the enclosure from above...
Can anyone suggest other dealers I should check out on the East Coast?
Thanks,
Donluce
No coolant loss that I can find, and I know its not going in the oil. Phooey.
Anyway, expecting that the dealer won't find a leak, I'm wondering if the Subaru "special" coolant sealer that's being used for the head gasket leaks on the regular 2.5L engines can be safely used in the XT's engine. I'm concerned about the cooling of the turbo being negatively impacted.
I've e-mailed SOA with the same question, but haven't heard back yet (can't complain about response time, only e-mailed them this morning).
All thoughts welcome.
Larry
Mysterious, Larry. Don't know if I'd want the additive. Have you ever seen the temp go up beyond normal?
-juice
If the weather holds this weekend I'm going to drop the splash shield and take another look.
Re: the additive, that's why I want an answer from SOA before the dealer tells me its the "preferred" solution for this problem. I'm really not wild about adding it, especially after the crud I cleaned out of the OBW's recovery tank.
Larry
-juice
As for the conditioner, I'm sure it won't reduce the cooling properties. Here's what I know: water has the best cooling qualities of any substance. Some race cars use nothing but water and conditioner (like water wetter) in their engines. However, water boils at too low a temp and freezes at too high a temp to be a good all-round cooling alternative in most climates and applications. In comes coolant/antrifreeze. It lowers the freezing temp and raises the boiling temp. That way, your engine won't freeze and you won't be boiling over. Conditioner just makes water more... "wet", hm... what do I mean by that? In some engines, the coolant takes a path through the engine that could cause it to have reduced flow in some places and or get air trapped in other places. That can cause "hot spots" that will eventually cause head gasket failures if the head gasket gets too hot and warps. Conditioners keep the water flowing more smoothly and keep the air bubbles that MIGHT form smaller so they are less likely to form as hot spots. I think you'd be fine with the conditioner in there. I'll update more after my appt on Thursday if they find a leak.
I'm bringing bagels for 20 so hopefully they'll figuer it out :-)
Elissa
My days of cooling system conditioner hail back to the original 'Stop Leak'. It would indeed stop leaks, in about any cooling system you used it in. It would also create such a coating (it had to "coat" something or it wouldn't stop the leak) that it would block small passages in an engines cooling system and could, once in a while, lead to permanent engine damage. Usually we used it in engines that already had lots of miles so it didn't really matter if it shortened the life expectancies of the systems.
I'm sure Subaru has come up with a clever chemical - maybe something that only interacts with gasket material and coats or swells it enough not to leak. The problem I have is that the turbo's cooling system has already been highly engineered to work a certain way and I want to make sure there's nothing in the additive that will shorten the life expectancy of the turbo.
In a perfect world, the dealer will just find the leak and fix it. Who says I'm too old to still have some illusions? :<)
Larry
Jim
I guess the overwellming thought is that I should just get the leather and have the roof.
in 29 years of life I struggle to recall getting in a car that is more than 3 years old without busted, cracked, pealing, flacking off like so many paint chips, leather. This is the reason I so against it.
I understand that things comeapart over time and that you have to take care of things. My problem is that I am not aware of how to take care of such things and I have no friends to ask for advice... look at there cars?
Almost everyone I know has cloth. DAD, MOM, Volleyball teammates, coworkers, friends??? not really, Family friends all lease.. so they never have a car over the age of 3.
I have a 9 year old car that I rarely even wash. Let alone get in there and condition/treat anything. And people offer to buy it all time time. It is a n Acura Integra 95. So its always kids and tuners who want at it. But the condition of the vechicle is not that bad at all. Switching is purely a profession based thing.
If you can find the time to rub some conditioner on it about once every six months it will last - just use a good conditioner like Lexol, who also makes a good cleaner. In general, stains wipe right up w/nothing needed but a damp rag.
I do my seats twice a year. It takes about a half hour total to do both front and rear. If you're in the car by yourself most of the time, a damp wipe of the rears and then conditioning them will take about 5-10 minutes. And I have arthritis and a bad rotator cuff. You young agile types ought to beat my times considerably. :<)
Do not do what a lot of dealers and some detailers do to make the leather look good - they use windex. Looks wonderful but really dries the leather something awful. I suppose you could get away with it if you layered on the conditioner afterwards, but easier to do it right in the first place.
Everyome has their own preference for a conditioner, but few will disagree Lexol is at least a decent product. In fact a lot of saddle manufacturers recommend it for saddles that cost upwards of 3-4 k. It's the same stuff I use on my wife's saddle and that sees a lot of hard use, and still looks great.
HTH
Larry
As far as I know, ZERO coolant loss is normal. Any coolant loss indicates a leak someplace in the system - either external (bad) or internal (worse). It's not like gas that you expect to consume a lot of or like oil that you expect to consume a little of. Coolant I expect to consume none.
I suggest you do what Larry and I did - get a piece of masking tape and apply it to the side of the reservoir by squeezing the tiniest hand you can find (your own or someone elses) into that very small gap. When the engine is completely cold - like after sitting overnight, mark the coolant level on the tape with a pen/pencil/marker. After every few hundred miles at least, check the level against that baseline. Only ever compare it when the car has sat overnight. When an engine gets hot, the pressure in the cooling system increases and coolant will spill over into the overflow reservoir. As the engine sits and cools down, it will suck what it needs back up from the reservoir. So if you measure it while it's still even slightly warm, it will appear as though you have more coolant than you do. Hope I didn't just tell you 20 things you already knew...
Elissa
First, if there are air pockets in your cooling system, the coolant level will appear to drop, even though it's functioning as designed, i.e. suck in more coolant if/when air is bled off.
The other condition is when you are at or above the fill mark. As temps make the coolant inside the radiator expand and retract, it's normal for some coolant to flow into the reservoir, and then back into the radiator once it cools back down.
The reservoir has an overflow that basically leaks out any excess coolant, once it goes beyond the "fill" mark (exactly where will vary by car).
So it might be full to begin with, then leak a bit when it expands, then it would be below the full mark once it contracts.
-juice
I think there is an additional vent hole in the reservoir that I can remember seeing when I was cleaning them and actually had them out of the car.
I think the 03 OBW is the same. In fact, I'm pretty sure of it.
Larry
2005 FXT in Crystal Gray, 5MT, cloth.
Anyone want to try and upsell me on any accessories? The Canadian base XT is already well equipped with some items not on the US model (e.g. moonroof, roof spoiler, step pad).
Considering:
- alarm upgrade (vs just the standard immobilizer)
- OEM rubber mats (vs Wallmart equivalents)
- ??
Also, how much 3M film to order..where is the best cost:benefit??
Hood only?
Hood and fenders??
Will be getting tint. Will also hold off on the OEM dog barrier this time as would like to keep the cargo cover.
Will keep it stock for the winter, then consider tires and a sway bar.
JP
PS: What's the final word on HAL in the 05s?
What options listed can be installed by dealer?
What options listed do you like, and are worth the extra money?
We are planning to order in next couple months,
Thanks,
Don Luce
Elissa
Elissa
-Frank
-Frank