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Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,435
    On their side in the basement... with cardboard between the basement floor and the bottom tire..

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    subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    wheels for our MPV: stored in the garage on their side on cardboard, wheels are cleaned and marked with the location they came from with chalk on the tread

    -Brian
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    What are winter tires? ;-p

    Ken
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,800
    Hahhah.... yeah, I was going to say, "I keep mine mounted on the car."

    Admittedly, though, I will probably go with a dedicated winter tire on the next vehicle I purchase, just to see how they do.

    My guess is that the manner of storage is probably more important for unmounted tires, as they are more subject to weight loads deflecting the tire. In that case, I would say that stored on their tread, with no weight on top of them (in other words, refrain from using them as a shelf!), is probably best unless you can store them on their sides without stacking anything (including other tires) on top. I would go with the custom shelving option and just roll them underneath the bottom shelf or have a "skinny" shelf for each tire if lying them on their sides. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    ssmintonssminton Member Posts: 155
    My '05 VDC has 55K miles on it. In the past few months, I have had a steady decrease in gas mileage performance. In the early months of ownership back in 2004, many VDC owners were complaining about the mileage performance. I used to get 25mpg consistently on the highway, even 24mpg w/ a ski box. Today, I am lucky to achieve 22mpg on the highway and 17mpg in city driving. Other than I have been living in London for the past year and developed a bit of an aggressive foot that might explain the "city" number, any thoughts on why I might be seeing this decrease in mileage performance?

    thank you!
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Hard to say. Lots of things can affect gas milage:

    - Tire pressure
    - Ambient temperature
    - Oil viscosity
    - Air filter
    - Gas quality
    - Driver style
    - Driving type

    Any of these change in the last few months? My guess is that the engine management unit learned your more agressive style and is sacrificing fuel efficiency for your heavy foot. One little experiement you can try is to reset the ECU by removing the negative battery terminal for 30 minutes. You'll see an initial drop in gas milage then a gradual increase as the unit leans out the mixture. Or, you can simply drive more gently and it'll learn that way too.

    Ken
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    kmcleankmclean Member Posts: 173
    Since it's the time of year where many of us are considering dedicated winter tires, you might check the latest (November) issue of Consumer Reports to see what they have to say about winter (and other flavor) tires.

    Ken in (cool but dry and sunny) Seattle
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    garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    They tested Snows last winter. But unlike just about any other publication, they do not publish the raw data and rank tires based on other data not shown. They'd be all over anyone else for doing that.

    In tests by the German Auto Club ADAC and the Norwegian magazine Motor, the Nokian RSI ranked tops and the Michelin X-Ice was a close second of the tires available here. We have both and they are both good. We also have Nokian WR's on our Mazda MPV - an All Season tire with the Severe Duty Snowflake rating.

    I'd rather have a FWD with dedicated snows than a Subaru with A/S - that's how much of a difference they make.
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    c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    You can expect a fraction of a drop in MPG (0.2-0.5 MPG or less) from the new 10% ethanol blends that have been phased in over the last few months. Are the tires inflated properly? That's the only major thing I can think of...
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline so it takes more to make the same power. That is a very good point Mr. Hunter.

    Tires should be properly inflated and heading the same direction. If there was a mishap with a curb or similar, it could knock the alignment off and affect tire wear and fuel mileage. You want the tires going like this || not like this /\ or \/.
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    robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Oh and just a couple of things. I too mark the tires with chalk as to where I want them to go next time - that's my version of rotating the tires. They get washed and waxed before storage as well - except the steelies. They just get washed.

    The custom shelving system was simply a bunch of scrap 2x4's for a frame and some 1x6 stock for the shelves. Each shelf holds one time to keep the alloys from getting scratched and I line the shelves with cardboard.
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,800
    How about spark plugs and fuel injectors? Have you noticed any other changes other than just decreased fuel mileage?
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    toolmaker1toolmaker1 Member Posts: 7
    I to own a 2005 VDC with 19000 mi. Best highway mi. 25.7 mpg
    city 21.5 mpg But when the cold weather hits around late november it drops to 17 mpg city.Done it two winters now.
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    saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    That's about the same as my best highway miles per gallon....25.8. My city mpg is about what Consumer Reports listed at 13. Suburban mpg is about 17. The odometer is just under 10,000 miles.

    Very high speed trips at just under 80 mph yield about 24.4 mpg which I consider excellent.
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    locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    this would be oxygenated fuel. now imagine running E85 all the time... :blush:

    ~Colin
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    dbike1dbike1 Member Posts: 7
    There are probably too many variables involved with city driving to realistically compare mileage numbers. That probably holds true for "mostly" highway driving, as well.

    What is meaningful is 100% highway driving, that is to say one (or more) tankfuls of steady highway miles, with complete warmup, and without the effects of persistant winds (either head or tail) and hills (either up or down).

    If you pull off the interstate, fill up the tank, reset the computer, drive 300-400 miles and then fill up the tank, you should get a fair representation of the vehicle's economy with that type of fuel, AS YOU DRIVE IT.

    As for our 05 VDC (20,000 miles), almost all the miles are highway miles, a majority of them on long-haul trips. The best we have done is 27.9 on the computer, but I think manual calculation yields a slightly higher number. My guess is that at 60 mph on a flat interstate highway the VDC will get 30 mpg

    There are a few things that I think will help you get the best mileage:

    1. use premium fuel. I believe that mileage is better with incresed octane, so that the money you lose in $/gallon is recaptured by increased miles/gallon.

    2. Keep the tires inflated as high as possible.

    3. Lose anything on the outside of the car that will cause drag. Specifically, any rack or box on top is subjected to magnified wind drag. I have even removed the factory cross-bars. An added advantege is that the car handles better at high speed. There is something about the way the transmission is geared that makes aerodynamic drag especially important. This was not the case with our 98 OB, which seemed to be unaffected by all sorts of cartop appendages.

    4. Observe the instantaneous MPG numbers on the computer as you drive to notice how your driving style affects efficiency. If you care about efficiency, learn to drive conservatively.

    Just my 2 pennies worth.

    DB
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    garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    1. use premium fuel. I believe that mileage is better with incresed octane, so that the money you lose in $/gallon is recaptured by increased miles/gallon.

    That's odd - I own an H6; I've logged every gallon of fuel used since new; alternated between high test and regular every few thousand miles (because you can't reset the new ECU like the old one). There's no difference. What do your fuel/mpg logs show?

    2. Keep the tires inflated as high as possible.

    Underinflated tires decrease your mileage. Overinflated tires do not increase your fuel mileage. Most new tires can be run at 35-40 psi cold with no trouble.
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    dbike1dbike1 Member Posts: 7
    There was a time in my life when I kept a car journal, logging everything imaginable. I have long since let go, so I cannot cite any hard statistics.

    Suffice it to say that the car will run on 87 octane but it has less power and a mighty hesitation when it downshifts. It likes 89 better and 91 even more. If you alternate between 87 and 91 then your tank is probably filled with 89, which I would call middle-grade. I don't think it is advisable to go any lower than that.

    --------

    One downside to running tires at 40 psi is that the ride will be harsh. We have these old concrete highways out here in Washington that have been worn down to cobblestones and even in the best of cars the noise and vibration is numbing.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    ... and a mighty hesitation when it downshifts

    Why would/does that happen? I have an 06 3.0 and I have started to use premium exclusively because I have noted that from a stop I have a hesitation if I get on the throttle too hard if I do not use premium. If I use 91 octane or above I have no issues.

    I don't understand why lower octane would cause a hesitation from a stop.

    Any insight?

    Karl
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    c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    The ECU retards timing when lower octane is detected. Hesitation is exactly the symptom you'd get with retarded timing.

    My previous Outback was an 02 LLB with the last generation H6. One time my wife filled the car with regular gas, and I noticed right away (enough of a difference to ask her what gas she put in, and then it all made sense). So I definitely appreciated the recommendation for premium in that vehicle. Subaru quoted a measly 4HP drop in peak power without premium fuel, but the overall feel of the engine was more of an issue to me than the 4HP. Like many engines designed for premium, the H6 is just not as smooth with lesser octane. I think what it really means is that they are on the ragged edge of performance/tuning with the premium fuel.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    How is it detected? I thought higher octane prevented pre-ignition of the fuel, thus allowing higher compression ratio's. Does some sort of sensor detect knocking upon hard acceleration, or what happens?

    Thanks for the education.

    Karl
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    c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Most modern cars have had knock sensors for years, which will retard the timing if knock is detected. I don't know if that is the primary means of adjusting to lower octane on the H6 though -- the knock sensor is really a catch-all way to detect knock (for any reason) and retard timing to prevent engine damage. There may be a more direct way to detect lower octane before knock happens, but I am not aware of one. So my assumption is that the knock sensor handles it.

    On a side note, more than one Subaru has been known to have a bad knock sensor, and will knock all the time. Usually replacing the sensor (an accelerometer bolted to the engine block) solves the problem.
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    garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    There was a time in my life when I kept a car journal, logging everything imaginable. I have long since let go, so I cannot cite any hard statistics.

    Suffice it to say that the car will run on 87 octane but it has less power and a mighty hesitation when it downshifts. It likes 89 better and 91 even more. If you alternate between 87 and 91 then your tank is probably filled with 89, which I would call middle-grade. I don't think it is advisable to go any lower than that.

    I do keep a log - no difference.

    More power? I also put my 3.0 on a chassis dyno - running Regular. No evidence of detonation, nor was the spark retarded - I checked the logs (which took as long as the run).

    Here's what SOA says:

    ########
    Thank you for taking the time to contact us. We hope that you have been enjoying your 2006 Outback 3.0R Wagon.

    The 3.0-liter H6 engine is designed to operate using unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 91 AKI or higher. Regular unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of 87 AKI or higher may be used. This is not just for emergency situations. You can use regular unleaded fuel in your vehicle on a regular basis. However, for optimum engine performance and driveability, it is recommended that you use 91 AKI or higher grade unleaded gasoline.

    You may experience reduced output, poor accelerator response, and reduced fuel economy when using gasoline with an octane rating lower than 91 AKI, depending on your driving habits and conditions.

    If you experience any of those conditions while using a lower octane rated fuel, you may want to return to using 91 AKI octane rated fuel as soon as possible. Additionally, if your vehicle knocks heavily or persistently, or if you are driving with heavy loads such as when towing a trailer, the use of 91 AKI or higher grade unleaded gasoline is required.

    Thank you for the opportunity to be of assistance. If you need any future assistance, please feel free to contact us again.

    Best wishes,

    John J. Mergen
    Subaru of America, Inc.
    Customer/Dealer Services Department
    #######

    All that said, some of the alcohol-blend Regulars seem to have very low Octane. We are getting pinging with some brands even in our trucks. So try changing brands if you experience knocking.
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    rkrurkru Member Posts: 16
    I get a hesitation when driving in the city but always associated it with the automatic on my 05 VDC. I use sport mode when I want quick acceleration.

    I'm in Canada & we pay a real premium for 91 octane: its over 10% more than 87 octane, so with the price of gas being what it is, I've settled on 89 (its only 6% more). With 87 I notice pinging under acceleration on an incline which disappears with 89.

    I ran 91 on a trip this summer though Nevada & Arizona & was getting 25 - 27 mpg running at 80 mph. I'm sure it would be better if I was driving 65 mph, but I don't seem to have the patience for a full tank.

    Ethanol gas is available all year round at some stations & you can buy 90 octane for the same price as 87. At first I thought it was a deal, but found that the price advantage was offset by lower milage (I keep logs). City milage (and I mean real city driving, lots of traffic & lights on my morning 9 mile commute) has always been terrible - it was in the 11-12 mpg range when new & is now in the 13mpg range. The poor gas milage has always been my main beef with the subie!

    I'll have to try the 91 again (no ethanol) and see if the hesitation goes away.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    I have a 2006 3.0R wagon. At one point in the middle of nowhere this weekend my trip odometer read "Er HC". I was wondering to myself what it meant when I looked down and saw my thermostat pegged on high. I quickly pulled over and popped the hood. The vehicle seemed fine. I read the manual and could find no reference to the code anywhere so I turned the car back on. The error code was gone and the thermostat was right where it should have been.

    Any idea what the code means, and are they documented somewhere in the manual that I missed?

    Thanks.
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    kmcleankmclean Member Posts: 173
    OK, I just have a 2.5 OB designed for (and run on) regular grade fuel. But an earlier experiment might pertain. In 1997, while living in Texas, I bought a new Nissan Maxima. Premium was recommended (but regular allowed), and I'm cheap. This was my first car with a sophisticated ECU.

    I had a very standard drive (30 miles one-way with little or no traffic), and standard summer weather (hot and humid). So I decided to see if premium was worth it. I started with premium fuel, ran three tanks of it noting the mileage. Then I moved to mid-grade, running a couple of tanks to "flush" out the premium. Three tanks of of mid-grade and mileage noted (each tank of any grade yielded about 350-400 miles). Same thing for regular - then back for another premium round (to compensate for any break-in changes). Bottom line: the mileage with premium was sufficiently greater (a bit over 10% compared to regular - with mid-grade in the middle) to just about make up the difference in price ($1.05, $1.15, and $1.25 at the time). And the performance with premium was noticeably better - purely a subjective assessment. That mileage difference would be even more significant at today's gas prices, which still seem to be about $0.10 per grade different depending on where you are).

    This was the only place I've ever lived that I could do what I considered to be a fairly reliable comparison. So take it FWIW. Hope this helps a bit.

    Ken in (amazingly, still sunny) Seattle
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    bblachabblacha Member Posts: 160
    my guess would be, an error (Er) caused by a bug in the computer. Assuming you got home all right?
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Once I restarted the car everything was fine, so getting home was not a problem thankfully. I assumed Er was error, but I could not guess what HC meant - Heating/Cooling or ??/Cluster.
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    luck11luck11 Member Posts: 425
    Ghost in the machine? I had a strange electrical glitch occur in my 2005 OBXTL on the way home from a trip this summer. Stopped to get gas and when I got back on the highway, noticed no radio, no climate control....but, the a/c was running at the same level prior to turing off the engine at the pumps. The whole centre console was dark.

    Got home, turned off the car, turned it on again, and bingo....all back to normal. In hindsight, I should have pulled over immediately and tried turning the car off.

    This was about two months ago....hasn't happened since. Of course, the dealer had no explanation

    Cheers.
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    rob_mrob_m Member Posts: 820
    This seems to be a known issue. Many reports from LGT owners of this happening just once, and never again.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Thanks. I am not too worried about it at this point. Do you have any idea what the HC stands for?
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    saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Could HC be for hydrocarbons? In other words an emission problem.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Who knows, but I wouldn't expect the temp gauge to peg because of that.
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    jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    HC = Hot Car? :D
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    saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Who knows, but I wouldn't expect the temp gauge to peg because of that.

    I wonder if there is a loose common ground....which has been known in Subarus.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    HC = Hot Car?

    As good of a guess as I have heard so far. :D
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,435
    As long as we are guessing...

    HC = HicCup?

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    toolmaker1toolmaker1 Member Posts: 7
    Own 2005 VDC Had the same thing happen. Only the radio still worked but climate control was dark but ac still on.
    I got the same warning a couple of times before everything went dead for good. Dealer replaced the head unit.I drove the car for four days with a big hole in the center consol.Also with ac on max. If some day they replace yours dont forget to take the cd's out of your radio.Because the head unit is the radio and the climate control. Happy Motoring.
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Ok I'm confused. The one time mine has done this I don't think I had any radio or HVAC issues, but I am also not sure either one was on. Did you have this same code displayed or some other one? Also, did you notice your temp gauge - was it high?

    Thanks for any additional help.
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    garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    OK, I just have a 2.5 OB designed for (and run on) regular grade fuel. But an earlier experiment might pertain. In 1997, while living in Texas, I bought a new Nissan Maxima. Premium was recommended (but regular allowed), and I'm cheap. This was my first car with a sophisticated ECU.

    I had a very standard drive (30 miles one-way with little or no traffic), and standard summer weather (hot and humid). So I decided to see if premium was worth it. I started with premium fuel, ran three tanks of it noting the mileage. Then I moved to mid-grade, running a couple of tanks to "flush" out the premium. Three tanks of of mid-grade and mileage noted (each tank of any grade yielded about 350-400 miles). Same thing for regular - then back for another premium round (to compensate for any break-in changes). Bottom line: the mileage with premium was sufficiently greater (a bit over 10% compared to regular - with mid-grade in the middle) to just about make up the difference in price ($1.05, $1.15, and $1.25 at the time). And the performance with premium was noticeably better - purely a subjective assessment. That mileage difference would be even more significant at today's gas prices, which still seem to be about $0.10 per grade different depending on where you are).

    This was the only place I've ever lived that I could do what I considered to be a fairly reliable comparison. So take it FWIW. Hope this helps a bit.

    If you conduct this experiment with your Subaru, it won't be accurate. That's because you cannot reset the ECU on the newer Subarus like you can on older ones. I notice you don't give a range or actual mpg - why not? When it comes to fuel economy, the #1 variable is the driver's right foot. Not even oil companies claim better mileage with high test.

    Based on your hypothesis, which tanks are Regular and which high test in this log of an actual Subaru H6?
    image">
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    kmcleankmclean Member Posts: 173
    My data stand. The mileage range was approximately 26-29 (it HAS been nine years, so I had to go look it up), which meant that for each of the four trials (premium-mid grade-regular-premium) I traveled approximately 1000-1200 miles under very comparable conditions (obviously, I could not control - nor did I attempt to account for - variations in temperature or wind; but they were minor and would tend to average out). My description of the trial, while brief, was accurate. I did not over-interpret the results, but I did attribute them to the one identifiable primary variable (fuel grade). The mileage yielded by the first and last "premium" trial was nearly identical (within 0.2 mpg). My right foot played a minor role since approximately 28 of the 30 mile trip was on cruise control at 60 mph (not too tough for a former fighter pilot to manage accurately).

    Since I am (obviously) not an automotive engineer (just a simple medical researcher), I am not familiar with the inner workings of ECUs - I had been under the impression that they adjusted spark timing to compensate for octane changes. There were no operator-available ECU adjustments involved in my trials.

    I understand that the primary reason for building engines that use premium fuel is increased power production from the same displacement engine, but I am unaware of any oil industry studies on octane/mileage so I can't comment. This experiment may not be reproducible in Subarus, but I didn't make that claim. The essence of science (when it comes to data) is knowing what to pay attention to and what to ignore.

    I can't address the question about your mileage from "mixed" driving because there are likely too many variables that I am unaware of that affected the outcome. I only take responsibility for (and attempt to interpret) studies that I have conducted or overseen. The point of my post was that this was (for me) a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to conduct a test that might yield useful information. Obviously, I could never repeat this trial in Seattle.

    Ken in (now rainy) Seattle
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    edwardsfedwardsf Member Posts: 190
    HP was boosted to 175 from 165 (I believe). Did that extra 10 HP help? Many '05 Legacy Outback 2.5i owners have reported that acceleration is just acceptable with the AT. Since it is 5 mpg and around $4000 difference between a loaded 2.5i Ltd. and the XT, I was hoping that the extra HP helps.

    Also, is the California version of the 2.5i a PZEV? (Partial zero emission vehicle.)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    PZEV makes 168hp. Don't quote me on that, though.

    -juice
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    saluki89saluki89 Member Posts: 5
    I also have a 2006 3.0R - love it, great car (or truck ;) ). I had that exact same experience - only one time - when the car was only a couple of months old. Dealer had no idea initially, called me back to say that they believe HC meant heater core. Since it hasn't happened in at least 9 months, dealer thinks it is a bug in onboard firmware code. They didn't find anything wrong upon inspection. Dealer did mention to me the last time I was in, that Subaru was working on a computer patch to address concerns around the HC issue and other oddities (elapsed time problems, other electronic issues).
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    zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    Great. Thanks for the info. Heater core would make some sense since my thermostat was pegged - at least they are part of the same system.
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    jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    One site I frequent describes the California spec Legacy as PZEV, Super Ultra Low EV.
    Not sure which one's better, Partial Zero or Super Ultra Low (these names are kinda silly!), or if the same engine can have both ratings. Maybe the 2.5i gets the better rating, and the turbo gets the next one down? :confuse: Prob'ly not much help. FWIW, I've also read the Cal-spec cars develop peak torque at slightly lower RPMs.

    Horsepower did jump a little starting in '06 with the introduction of AVCS (active variable valve control system). I think it's a noticeable improvement. AVCS also increased the city MPG slightly. I have an '06 Legacy sedan (2.5i SE w/AT) and think the acceleration is pretty sprightly. Guess it all depends on what you're used to, though. No complaints about the power, but the 5-spd AT would be welcome. Incidentally, our real-world fuel economy has been better than I anticipated. All Subaru turbo models require premium fuel, so the 2.5i would also save you a little at the pump.

    Subaru did a few safety improvements starting with the '06, allowing it to ace the side impact tests and boost it to the best possible rating for front, side and rear impacts. Only car in its class to ace all three. Better than Volvo, even.

    The top safety rating, better-feeling power and slightly better fuel economy starting in '06... I think it's worth going for an '06 or '07 rather than '05. Other '06 improvements in the Outback include standard air filtration, standard engine immobilizer key (which should lower your insurance!) and standard 17" alloy wheels. Sorry to be so long-winded. Whew! :blush:
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    edwardsfedwardsf Member Posts: 190
    Thanks Jeff! Very helpful info. What is the website for that PZEV info?
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    jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    There's a ton of info at the site below, if you care to scroll/navigate through all of it. The mention of PZEV/SULEV occurs on each page right above the pricing table (which includes CA-spec pricing).

    '07 Outback: http://www.cars101.com/subaru/outback/outback2007.html#prices

    '06 Outback: http://www.cars101.com/subaru/outback/outback2006.html#prices

    This CA gov't site confirms non-turbo Outback & Legacy as PZEV:
    http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/en/gv/vsearch/cleansearch_result.asp?vehicletypeid=- 16

    And this Subaru press release has a good section of info on their PZEV vehicles, if you scroll down, as well as some impressive Subaru environmental info right below that:
    http://www.subdriven.com/news/publish/Subaru_News/article_449.shtml
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    kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    That's because you cannot reset the ECU on the newer Subarus like you can on older ones.

    How so? Do you mean pulling the battery terminal won't reset the ECU?

    Ken
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    garandmangarandman Member Posts: 524
    Correct
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