The dial is somewhat flushed with the sides and about this -> size in diameter, if not a wee smaller. You would need a screw driver to make the adjustment.
I will look for the dial although I may need a lighted periscope to see anything under the driver's seat Can someone explain to me how the subwoofer works with the head unit? There was no docs with it (should there have been?) I mean - does the main bass control (in the head) affect the subwoofer at all? Is the bass from the main speakers filtered out since we have a sub to take care of some of the low frequencies? It's not clear to me how all of this works and where the crossover really happens.
There are two dials on the sub, I believe, one for gain and one to set the crossover frequency (when the sub takes over from the main speakers). Yes, tone controls on the head unit affect the sub as well. I just had the sub installed this morning, and it makes a significant difference. I'm very glad I added it.
Interesting... I really don't get it if the tone controls on the main unit affect the sub.... From an engineering perspective there should be a crossover that splits the "ultra" lows and sends them to the sub. The "mid-lows" and upward should go to the rest of the drivers. If the crossover (to the sub) happened before the main tone controls, then those would not affect the sub. Therefore, I can only assume that the crossover is after the tone controls. Now - if the sub crossover is also after the main power amp, then the main volume should not affect the sub either. Is this the case? Since this is a powered sub, can we assume that the split point is after the tone controls but before the power amp? This may sound nit-picky but it's not clear what's the best way to adjust the crossover point, subwoofer gain AND main tone controls without endless experiments. If there are any settings of these three parameters that look useful to you, I'd love to hear about them at least as a first cut. Off the shelf, with the main bass at "0", the system sounds (to my ears) way too bass-heavy. The problem again is figuring out a recipe of the three variables we have....
Having said all of this - it may be that most people are happy with the stock sound and that's absolutely fine. I play musical instruments and so my ears unfortunately make me do extra work. It's a curse.. and a blessing
OK, now I remember there's two dials. One for "gain" which controls the output volume of the sub., and the other to adjust the High Cut [crossover frequency?].
Avi- it would be likely that you'll be spending quite a bit of time in the car.
1a - shut yourself in the car windows up. 1b - pick a tune you're very familiar with that has a broad frequency range. 2 - turn the volume up to your listening liking. 3 - set all the tones flat ["0"] and turn the sub volume down all the way, and maximum High Cut. 4 - begin adjusting your High and Bass, Midrange if any to your liking. My headunit doesn't have midrange, but that can be adjusted by fading the rear speakers. That reduces the head in a hollow oil drum echo effects. 5 - now adjust the sub volume and High Cut till desired or at least optimum. Oh, after each adjustment(s), pull the passenger seat back over the sub then listen before adjusting again.
Did I mention you should be at the driver's seat while doing all this?
The sub harness goes inline with the main radio harness -- it grabs 12V and ground, and picks the speaker level signals from the rear speakers. So the sub is downstream of the radio's tone controls. There is no crossover to the main speakers -- they continue to get the full spectrum.
In a case like this, you can lower the bass seting on the head unit, thus alleviating the main speakers of producing a lot of bass. Then dial in the gain on the subwoofer to compensate to your taste.
I have found that it's good to start with the gain and low-pass knobs set in the middle, listen to the sound on a few songs of your choice, and then adjust as needed. I'm afraid I don't have the endurance for the more rigorous procedure Dave suggested :-p
The sub knobs may be hard to get to in the case of the 05 Legacy/OB, but they have a phillips "slot" and can probably be adjusted with a long screwdriver, perhaps while you are sitting down in the driver's seat!
Avi, if the system sounds bass-heavy to you, then try cranking the gain down a little. I would only mess with the crossover knob if the sub is audibly producing too much mid-bass (say, enough to interfere with male voices on talk radio) or not enough mid-bass (no kick to drums). I'm not even sure what frequency ranges are covered by the Subaru sub, but it is clearly more of a low-mid bass device than the typical low-only subwoofer.
If you insure with Geico, on new cars they offer a bumper to bumper 8 year, 100K warranty, 250 dollar deductable for $34 dollars a year. That's right $34/ year for my 05 Legacy GT Limited and it covers everything expect wipers, tire, oil. Check it out.
Actually I didn't do it all in the driver's seat, I just got lazy getting out and get into the rear passenger area. It's rather difficult to adjust the sub from the driver's seat though.
My local dealer has a bunch of them here in Chicago. I don’t think they are selling too well and it’s disappointing to me that a brand new car is selling at invoice a month or so after it’s introduced to the marketplace. I think that’s a clear indicator that the demand for the new Legacy is very low. It’s a good car and probably priced right, but I think most people considering a $25-30K sports sedan are not considering a Subaru. Let’s face it, Acura, Honda, Infiniti, and Nissan have most of the market share in this arena.
I still go back to my original thought about this car being too bland. Subaru needed to do something above and beyond the competition to draw some attention. Most of us on this web site are true car buff’s and know the new Legacy is a great car because we know what goes into a good car. The boxer engine, AWD, large brakes, etc. all make up a pretty decent sports sedan. However, the Legacy GT has lots of competitors offering just as much or more (at least on paper) and the competition is already well-established in this market segment of vehicles. AWD does help them be different, but lots of avg. car buyers could care less about which wheels propel the car. AWD marketing is only going to be successful in certain geographic areas of the country.
250 hp isn’t much compared to the competition and it’s coming from a 4 cyl. engine. Turbo or not, lot’s of people see a 4 cyl as a weak engine and want the assumed additional power of a 6 cyl. It’s a hp. game these days. Subaru could have easily made the GT hp. rating north of 275. Perhaps they were concerned that would steal away WRX STi buyers. No navi. option doesn’t help them either. Subaru could have also put Brembo brakes on the GT. Brembo seems to be pairing up with OEM automakers more and more lately (STi, Acura TL 6sp, 350Z, G35 Coupe, Evo). The Brembo name would attract more sports car folks towards the GT model. And lastly, styling of the GT is boring. It doesn’t look bad, it just doesn’t look sporty. Non-GT and GT models hardly look any different from each other (other that the 17” wheels, what’s different from an exterior appearance?). I saw a silver Toyota Camary this morning and I seriously had to do a double take because I thought it was the new Legacy. That’s not a good thing.
And Subaru increased prices substantially when you consider rebates on the 2004s hit $2000 in some cases. So sales prices are still $2500 higher than last year.
You might lose some volume when that happens, and that's why I'm sort of against this whole "upscale" move.
AWD and 0-60 in the 5s make it unique if you ask me.
Navi and Brembos would only push the price higher. Subaru teamed up with MacIntosh for the stereo on the VDC early on and prices were so high that model never sold well.
Subaru will likely have to start the rebate game. This is why I was hoping they'd set prices lower to begin with. I've seen $200 under invoice, already.
-juice
PS Keep in mind July was a record for Legacy sales, August is vacation time
Just make sure they don't scrape the ground since the ground clearance is different.
Here in the NW they don't make a difference- cutting down a little of the splatter from your own tires doesn't do a thing for all the stuff coming from the cars around you. The difference between 80% and 100% dirty is minimal. ;-) They may save you from a small rock or two though.
The results of the first comparo is in that I am aware of.Heres how it goes. 1.Acura TSX 2.VOLVO S40 3.LEGACY GT 4.AUDI 1.8T Really I find it hard to believe b/c I tested all of these before my decision on the GT.To me the legacy is the hands down winner which all that really counts I guess.Any thoughts?Oh YEH 5.7 0 TO 60 AND 14.2 1/4.
I don't think they will -- the Outback has lower cladding which changes the shape of the fenders/wheelwells and rocker panels where the flaps would fit. The two cars don't have the same shape in that area.
Subaru of America never released flaps for the WRX -- I had to import them from the UK!!
Dave- wow- that's a lot for some small pieces of plastic! ;-) It's probably worse now that the dollar has gone down. I was wondering about trying to get a small lip spoiler for the trunk of my GT LTD to replace the big one on the trunk now if they are available in other countries.
Ray- some people here have had coupons available and have been giving them to people. There might not be very many left though.
Need your expertise/opinion! (or just pick one as if you have to!)
I finally decide to get the Sube Outback after living in NYS snow beltway and to serve glowing family needs. (only a single child so far but she has so much baggage already!)
Here is my dilemma...
Our family budget is ~26K (before tax and title) for our next vehicle. We have narrowed down to 2 models, 04 LL Bean and 05 2.5i. The price difference is ~$3000
Please provide your feedback and opinions! Many thanks.
Pro: * H6 * Leather and all other luxurious items. * Proven design
Con: * Out dated design * Inferior interior compare to 05. (IMHO, out right ugly. Worst offender!) * No local dealer has it. Need to drive ~70 miles (not too bad)
05 2.5i (auto) ===== Price: Invoice ~$23,400 (didn't negotiate too much yet)
Pro: * Newly designed! * Love the interior * lot of standards for the price
Con: * Newly designed. (bugs are to be worked out) * H4 * Non-luxurious items
Are extended warranties good value? I've been told they are just like insurance policies provided to help companies make money. Subaru has a great reputation for durability. If it is, do I really need an extended warranty? What are the odds it will pay off because future repair costs go sky high? Do any meaningful statistics exist?
I have also noticed the engine stutter. Just bought a 2005 legacy gt limited with 5-speed. Seems to happen most in 3rd and 4th gear with early acceleration, produces 3-5 stutters during acceleration, the power is strong, but interupted by these pauses or stutters. I saw some links about grounding etc., but nothing definitive. Any other thoughts? Thanks, otherwise love the gt, quick and fun to drive.
Extended warranties can be beneficial, it just depends on your priorities. One thing about them though is that in my opinion you should never purchase one until the original manufacturers warranty is about to expire. You don't need to buy them at the time of purchase. After you've had your vehicle a few years, you'll have a better feel for whether an extended warranty will be worth it.
The Legacy GT appears to be a slow mover in my area--not a surprise because New England/New York, while it is Subaru territory, is dominated by the Outback. Any word on how the Outback XT is selling? There seems to be less real competition in that market segment, as compared to the Legacy GT. So far, I've seen a number of '05 Outbacks (2.5i) already--but no other XTs.
My recommendation would be to drive the '04 Bean and '05 2.5 i, and make your decision on that. Drive them several times if need be. However, if your looking for my gut opinion: the '05 2.5i would most likely be my choice. Why? It's a newer more advanced vehicle in just about every way, even if the power and luxury is down a bit from the older Bean.
Yesterday, Subaru Canada introduced special financing for all 2005 Outback and Legacy models:
2.9% up to 24 months 3.8% 36 or 48 months 4.8% 60 months
Their standard, non-discounted financing was set at 5.5% across the board.
Guess what I will be doing sometime over the next couple of weeks?
You got it...hopping off the Soob fence. Question is whether it will be on the Legacy or Outback side.
Love the Legacy GT exterior, not crazy about all black interior. Outback, not crazy about two-tone (monotone only avail on OB XT LTD), but like slightly gentler ride, road clearance, and availability of 3.0 with taupe cloth. I think LTDs are out of my range right now....maybe next one.
I received a subaru maintenance coupon on any new legacy or outback purchased or leased through Novemeber 1st after participating in the Car and Driver Ride and Drive event last weekend in Chicago. If anyone is interested in it send me an email at trevian2 at yahoo dot com.
get the ll bean. Of course take a test drive in both, But the bean sounds like a better value and should have good resale. Love the perforated leather, and the 04 body style is handsome-not to mention the proven flat six-no contest unless you must have the new look of the 05.
Thanks for your input. I really do like the new interior look of the 05. Subaru really did fantastic job this time. Comparing the interior, the 04 seemed cruel. It seemed it was put together at the last minute.
Nonetheless, I do agree with you; the Bean is better value in terms of price.
Could you (or anyone else) elaborate bit more on the new-advanced advantage?
Perhaps it's time I drive ~70 miles for the dealership who has the LL Bean so that I can compare the 2. My local dealership is all out on 04s.
I did test drive the 05 LL Bean and used 03 H6 Sedan (similar class to LL Bean with leather, Onstar, etc.) and found 05 to be much better IMO. The rides were much plush yet the car seemed to corner well. The 05 H6 engine was much stronger when going uphill. The new tranny is also smooth yet lively. If not somewhat touchy (maybe we're not used to each other yet)
This test drive along with checking out the interior made me longing for 05 H6. It offered both power and style we are looking for.
Alas, our budget is 26K and we have to make sacrifice somewhere... powerful, luxurious and ugly (interior) of 04 LL Bean? standard, "can I haul all this and tackle on uphill" power and beautiful 05 2.5i...
Craig, did you ever get the coupon thing straightened out? Also, did you get the touch up paint off your back window?
BTW, the shipping from the UK must've been more than the cost of the flaps! ;-)
Yeah, I paid about the same as Dave for the WRX flaps. Luckily there's a fellow in the US that imports them and I have a feeling he gets a better price for us by buying in volume and having a crate shipped here. I think the price is up to $220 now...
I didn't bother messing with the coupon dilemma once I learned there is not a 3K service on the new cars and remembered that I would likely be doing the 7500 mile service myself! (just because I like changing oil on a new car). So the missing 7500 coupon won't be missed...
Paint is off the glass, and I am leaving the few remaining speckles on the trim. It's not very noticeable and I'd rather not "pick" at the problem (for the benefit of my own mental health).
Could you (or anyone else) elaborate bit more on the new-advanced advantage?
It's an all-new model and benefits from everything Subaru has learned over the past 5 years or so.
The automatic has a manual SportShift mode. It's quieter and more refined, plus there are many details that have been improved upon. For example, the front intermittent wipers now have 9 or so speeds whereas the '04 model has only 3 speeds. The heated seats now have 4 heat settings, whereas the the '04 model had only 2 settings. It can tow more (2700 vs 2400). There are many more subtle examples like this. Granted these are 'details,' but the sum total of these small advances often adds up to a much more satisfactory ownership experience IMO.
As to luxury, you may want consider the 2.5i Limited. It's probably right at your price limit, or close enough to it for you to adjust that limit slightly if need be. Plus you might be able to negotiate a better price on it? The Limited offers leather, moonroof, turn signals in the outside mirrors and other goodies.
If the interior of the 04 is really that offensive to you, I wouldn't even consider the car. The 04 is only a better deal if you love the car, and it doesn't sound like you do. I've found that even little things that bother me on test drives can turn into major annoyances down the road.
I owned an 01 Outback with the same drivetrain as the 2.5i you're looking at; I put about 60k miles on that car before buying my WRX. During the 2 years I owned the car, we took several road trips with the car loaded down and the roof rack full of gear and the car never once left us wanting for more power.
The 2.5l engine is amazingly torquey and flexible, and once up to speed it will cruise all day long at super-legal speeds. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Subie with that engine, and the $23k pricetag of the new models strikes me as a great bargain!
Well, I had an 02 LL Bean and now have an 05 XT-Ltd.
The older Bean's H6 engine is a real gem -- smooth, quiet, and very fuel efficient. It will basically give you the same or better mileage than the H4 in the 2.5i model. So I consider the engine to be a huge plus, but the ONLY plus!!
In every other respect, I feel that the 05 2.5i model is superior, especially its refinement and handling. While Subaru added a bunch of insulation to the previous generation Bean model to make it quiet and refined, the new models -- even the base 2.5i -- are as good or better. In terms of handling, the new models are leaps and bounds ahead of the old models. The have a more sporting suspension and the steering response / accuracy is spectacular. The steering on the older Outbacks was pretty bad -- wishy-washy, no strong on-center feel, and kind of "ambivalent" feeling. It always bothered me, and I was glad to see it fixed in the new models.
I think the styling and looks of the 05 are much better too. Honestly, I was happy with my 02 -- it was like a comfortable plaid shirt -- but the 05 is dead sexy inside and out. I always thought the 00-04 Outbacks looked outdated even by 2000 standards. In contrast, the 05 looks very modern to me, and it has a lot of the features you would expect on an 05 model.
My advice is to get the 05. If you want some luxury features from the 04 Bean, consider stepping up to the 05 2.5i-Ltd. In the long run, the added cost will seem like peanuts compared to your happiness!
Craig, Ken and a few others here, being new owners of '05 models and/or previous owners, are great resources as to the subtle differences between the old and new models.
I personally would go with the 05 model, not simply because it's new and better looking, but because the chassis was designed specifically to accomodate the higher ground clearance of the new OBs.
The previous generation models, once you stripped away the taller suspension and body cladding, very similar between the Legacy and OB. Basically, the design was centered on the Legacy and then modified to become an OB.
For the 05 models, Subaru did more extensive redesigning just for the OB line. The chassis between the Legacy and OB are no longer identical which is a good thing for the higher center-of-gravity OB model. It's these fundamental improvements that result in the handling improvements Craig highlighted.
Also, the previous H6 was nice, but the HP was quite peaky. I think the combination of the lighter 05 chassis and improved transmission will narrow the true performance gap.
One last item -- if you don't like the looks of the 04 model now, you'll be kicking yourself when all you see are the 05+ models in a few years.
Don't buy a car you're not happy in, no matter what. You don't like the '04 interior so that should rule it out, period.
The H6 engine is a gem, but remember the H4 will be pulling a lot less weight. 168hp to 212hp is not that big of a step up, and you will be using less gas and regular gas to boot.
Extended warranty? Do you want roadside assistance? Because that's included for free. Also, it might help resale. We have a 7/100, when it's 6 years old and has 80k miles, don't you think it'll be easier to sell with 20k miles and a year left on a bumper-to-bumper warranty? Bet we'll recover $300-400 right there.
I don't get how the S40 rated so highly in C&D. I thought the whole bottom half of that cockpit felt cheap, maybe 2-3 steps below the Legacy's fine interior. Go price a V50 T5 AWD and you'll faint.
ateixeira, I agree with you about the Volvo.My wife and I test drove one and were really surprised how cheap the bottom half of the cockpit looked. The Volo dealers are not to keen on dealing. Was told the best they could do on s40 awd was $700 off of sticker and the v50 awd would be sticker price. My biggest problem with the legacy GT is whether to go with a sedan or wagon.
Well, I read the article and can't say I was impressed.
The final C&D point standings were: 1. TSX- 212 2. S40- 196 3. LGT- 193 4. A4- 178
so the LGT was close to the Volvo, but far behind the TSX despite being the fastest.
The LGT lost points to the TSX: 2 for driver comfort 1 for the trunk (how different can the trunk be?) 3 for features/amenities 2 for fit and finish 1 for styling 2 for the tranny 1 for handling and 2 for ride 3 for "gotta have it factor" 2 for "fun to drive"
plus a few other points lost here and there. I think you could easily argue 10 points as quite biased, I mean, "gotta have it?" the TSX is nowhere near the top of my list. It's also interesting that despite the far more powerful engine, the LGT only beat out the TSX by 1 point. Hmmmm.
BTW, the Volvo gained 2 points on the trunk alone.
They clearly didn't like the "plasticky" interior, the frameless doors, and the 'heavy clutch'. They thought the suspension was a little soft, but docked it points for the ride. It sounds like they were looking for a luxo cruiser, not a sports sedan.
It's too bad it lost out to the Volvo by such a small margin. 2nd and 3rd sounds like a much bigger difference than it was.
Oh well, I was hoping for a good review but instead got a bunch of complaints. One good thing about the article is that it's clear the GT needs better tires. The volvo killed the 3 other cars in breaking from 70.
I am anxiously awaiting my C&D, but I can tell you, based on the experience with my wife's TSX and my many test drives in the Legacy, that I think C&D is way off on the score differences Tom mentioned. They must have some bias towards Honda/Acura.
On fit and finish, I have re-fit and tucked in 3-4 pieces of the TSX interior. The exterior body panels fit well, but so do a lot of other cars.
I agree the TSX has more features, but styling is subjective. I think I like the Legacy GT look better.
I would think the TSX would be up more than 2 points on tranny -- it is way better than the Legacy (at least MT -- I bet the Legacy would rule if autos were tested).
On handling I can see 1 point, but on ride they are dead wrong. The TSX rides firmer than the Legacy and it has a lot of road noise and vibration coming up from the tires. No way it rides better than the Legacy, it's not in the same league in my experience.
I have the 2.5 GT w/5EAT. I, too, notice the stutter but in top gear at 60 MPH under acceleration that's hard but not hard enough to invoke a downshift. Once I get to 65 MPH it ceases. RPM is around 2350. It does not occur in 4th gear at that speed nor RPM. I had the local service manager for a ride and we experienced a roughness there (almost a shaking) but not the stutter. I was unable to duplicate it on the local back roads but always have it on the highway after sitting at 60 MPH for a while. Anyway the service manager was going to talk to the SOA rep today. Unfortunately I missed his call but will get with him Tuesday and hope that we can pursue and resolve this. I'll keep you posted.
Comments
Thanks,
Avi
Ken
You would need a screw driver to make the adjustment.
-Dave
Clues anyone
Avi
Getting to the sub, push the passenger seat all the way forward and access from the rear passenger.
-Dave
Having said all of this - it may be that most people are happy with the stock sound and that's absolutely fine. I play musical instruments and so my ears unfortunately make me do extra work. It's a curse.. and a blessing
Cheers
Avi
One for "gain" which controls the output volume of the sub., and the other to adjust the High Cut [crossover frequency?].
-Dave
it would be likely that you'll be spending quite a bit of time in the car.
1a - shut yourself in the car windows up.
1b - pick a tune you're very familiar with that has a broad frequency range.
2 - turn the volume up to your listening liking.
3 - set all the tones flat ["0"] and turn the sub volume down all the way, and maximum High Cut.
4 - begin adjusting your High and Bass, Midrange if any to your liking. My headunit doesn't have midrange, but that can be adjusted by fading the rear speakers. That reduces the head in a hollow oil drum echo effects.
5 - now adjust the sub volume and High Cut till desired or at least optimum. Oh, after each adjustment(s), pull the passenger seat back over the sub then listen before adjusting again.
Did I mention you should be at the driver's seat while doing all this?
-Dave
In a case like this, you can lower the bass seting on the head unit, thus alleviating the main speakers of producing a lot of bass. Then dial in the gain on the subwoofer to compensate to your taste.
I have found that it's good to start with the gain and low-pass knobs set in the middle, listen to the sound on a few songs of your choice, and then adjust as needed. I'm afraid I don't have the endurance for the more rigorous procedure Dave suggested :-p
The sub knobs may be hard to get to in the case of the 05 Legacy/OB, but they have a phillips "slot" and can probably be adjusted with a long screwdriver, perhaps while you are sitting down in the driver's seat!
Avi, if the system sounds bass-heavy to you, then try cranking the gain down a little. I would only mess with the crossover knob if the sub is audibly producing too much mid-bass (say, enough to interfere with male voices on talk radio) or not enough mid-bass (no kick to drums). I'm not even sure what frequency ranges are covered by the Subaru sub, but it is clearly more of a low-mid bass device than the typical low-only subwoofer.
Craig
It's rather difficult to adjust the sub from the driver's seat though.
-Dave
-Dave
I still go back to my original thought about this car being too bland. Subaru needed to do something above and beyond the competition to draw some attention. Most of us on this web site are true car buff’s and know the new Legacy is a great car because we know what goes into a good car. The boxer engine, AWD, large brakes, etc. all make up a pretty decent sports sedan. However, the Legacy GT has lots of competitors offering just as much or more (at least on paper) and the competition is already well-established in this market segment of vehicles. AWD does help them be different, but lots of avg. car buyers could care less about which wheels propel the car. AWD marketing is only going to be successful in certain geographic areas of the country.
250 hp isn’t much compared to the competition and it’s coming from a 4 cyl. engine. Turbo or not, lot’s of people see a 4 cyl as a weak engine and want the assumed additional power of a 6 cyl. It’s a hp. game these days. Subaru could have easily made the GT hp. rating north of 275. Perhaps they were concerned that would steal away WRX STi buyers. No navi. option doesn’t help them either. Subaru could have also put Brembo brakes on the GT. Brembo seems to be pairing up with OEM automakers more and more lately (STi, Acura TL 6sp, 350Z, G35 Coupe, Evo). The Brembo name would attract more sports car folks towards the GT model. And lastly, styling of the GT is boring. It doesn’t look bad, it just doesn’t look sporty. Non-GT and GT models hardly look any different from each other (other that the 17” wheels, what’s different from an exterior appearance?). I saw a silver Toyota Camary this morning and I seriously had to do a double take because I thought it was the new Legacy. That’s not a good thing.
You might lose some volume when that happens, and that's why I'm sort of against this whole "upscale" move.
AWD and 0-60 in the 5s make it unique if you ask me.
Navi and Brembos would only push the price higher. Subaru teamed up with MacIntosh for the stereo on the VDC early on and prices were so high that model never sold well.
Subaru will likely have to start the rebate game. This is why I was hoping they'd set prices lower to begin with. I've seen $200 under invoice, already.
-juice
PS Keep in mind July was a record for Legacy sales, August is vacation time
Here in the NW they don't make a difference- cutting down a little of the splatter from your own tires doesn't do a thing for all the stuff coming from the cars around you. The difference between 80% and 100% dirty is minimal. ;-) They may save you from a small rock or two though.
tom
1.Acura TSX
2.VOLVO S40
3.LEGACY GT
4.AUDI 1.8T
Really I find it hard to believe b/c I tested all of these before my decision on the GT.To me the legacy is the hands down winner which all that really counts I guess.Any thoughts?Oh YEH 5.7 0 TO 60 AND 14.2 1/4.
I think they carry them for the '05 Legacy, or coming soon
-Dave
I don't think they will -- the Outback has lower cladding which changes the shape of the fenders/wheelwells and rocker panels where the flaps would fit. The two cars don't have the same shape in that area.
Subaru of America never released flaps for the WRX -- I had to import them from the UK!!
Craig
Craig, did you ever get the coupon thing straightened out? Also, did you get the touch up paint off your back window?
BTW, the shipping from the UK must've been more than the cost of the flaps! ;-)
tom
They'll have to be imported from UK.
~ GBP100 for front and rear which is ~USD180. Tag on shipping and possible tax, we'll be looking at ~USD200
Anyway, I think AZPInstalls is coming out with local mudflaps for the '05 Legacy.
Tom-
the WRX mudflaps cost me USD190.
-Dave
Ray- some people here have had coupons available and have been giving them to people. There might not be very many left though.
Tom
Need your expertise/opinion! (or just pick one as if you have to!)
I finally decide to get the Sube Outback after living in NYS snow beltway and to serve glowing family needs. (only a single child so far but she has so much baggage already!)
Here is my dilemma...
Our family budget is ~26K (before tax and title) for our next vehicle. We have narrowed down to 2 models, 04 LL Bean and 05 2.5i. The price difference is ~$3000
Please provide your feedback and opinions! Many thanks.
04 LL Bean
=======
Negotiated price: $28400 + tax + title - $2500 rebate
Pro:
* H6
* Leather and all other luxurious items.
* Proven design
Con:
* Out dated design
* Inferior interior compare to 05. (IMHO, out right ugly. Worst offender!)
* No local dealer has it. Need to drive ~70 miles (not too bad)
05 2.5i (auto)
=====
Price: Invoice ~$23,400 (didn't negotiate too much yet)
Pro:
* Newly designed!
* Love the interior
* lot of standards for the price
Con:
* Newly designed. (bugs are to be worked out)
* H4
* Non-luxurious items
Dave
Mike
Zman
Bob
Yesterday, Subaru Canada introduced special financing for all 2005 Outback and Legacy models:
2.9% up to 24 months
3.8% 36 or 48 months
4.8% 60 months
Their standard, non-discounted financing was set at 5.5% across the board.
Guess what I will be doing sometime over the next couple of weeks?
You got it...hopping off the Soob fence. Question is whether it will be on the Legacy or Outback side.
Love the Legacy GT exterior, not crazy about all black interior. Outback, not crazy about two-tone (monotone only avail on OB XT LTD), but like slightly gentler ride, road clearance, and availability of 3.0 with taupe cloth. I think LTDs are out of my range right now....maybe next one.
Jay
Thanks for your input. I really do like the new interior look of the 05. Subaru really did fantastic job this time. Comparing the interior, the 04 seemed cruel. It seemed it was put together at the last minute.
Nonetheless, I do agree with you; the Bean is better value in terms of price.
I'm really torn!
Thanks for your input!
Could you (or anyone else) elaborate bit more on the new-advanced advantage?
Perhaps it's time I drive ~70 miles for the dealership who has the LL Bean so that I can compare the 2. My local dealership is all out on 04s.
I did test drive the 05 LL Bean and used 03 H6 Sedan (similar class to LL Bean with leather, Onstar, etc.) and found 05 to be much better IMO. The rides were much plush yet the car seemed to corner well. The 05 H6 engine was much stronger when going uphill. The new tranny is also smooth yet lively. If not somewhat touchy (maybe we're not used to each other yet)
This test drive along with checking out the interior made me longing for 05 H6. It offered both power and style we are looking for.
Alas, our budget is 26K and we have to make sacrifice somewhere... powerful, luxurious and ugly (interior) of 04 LL Bean? standard, "can I haul all this and tackle on uphill" power and beautiful 05 2.5i...
Thanks and keep it coming!
BTW, the shipping from the UK must've been more than the cost of the flaps! ;-)
Yeah, I paid about the same as Dave for the WRX flaps. Luckily there's a fellow in the US that imports them and I have a feeling he gets a better price for us by buying in volume and having a crate shipped here. I think the price is up to $220 now...
I didn't bother messing with the coupon dilemma once I learned there is not a 3K service on the new cars and remembered that I would likely be doing the 7500 mile service myself! (just because I like changing oil on a new car). So the missing 7500 coupon won't be missed...
Paint is off the glass, and I am leaving the few remaining speckles on the trim. It's not very noticeable and I'd rather not "pick" at the problem (for the benefit of my own mental health).
Craig
It's an all-new model and benefits from everything Subaru has learned over the past 5 years or so.
The automatic has a manual SportShift mode. It's quieter and more refined, plus there are many details that have been improved upon. For example, the front intermittent wipers now have 9 or so speeds whereas the '04 model has only 3 speeds. The heated seats now have 4 heat settings, whereas the the '04 model had only 2 settings. It can tow more (2700 vs 2400). There are many more subtle examples like this. Granted these are 'details,' but the sum total of these small advances often adds up to a much more satisfactory ownership experience IMO.
As to luxury, you may want consider the 2.5i Limited. It's probably right at your price limit, or close enough to it for you to adjust that limit slightly if need be. Plus you might be able to negotiate a better price on it? The Limited offers leather, moonroof, turn signals in the outside mirrors and other goodies.
Bob
I owned an 01 Outback with the same drivetrain as the 2.5i you're looking at; I put about 60k miles on that car before buying my WRX. During the 2 years I owned the car, we took several road trips with the car loaded down and the roof rack full of gear and the car never once left us wanting for more power.
The 2.5l engine is amazingly torquey and flexible, and once up to speed it will cruise all day long at super-legal speeds. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Subie with that engine, and the $23k pricetag of the new models strikes me as a great bargain!
Brian
The older Bean's H6 engine is a real gem -- smooth, quiet, and very fuel efficient. It will basically give you the same or better mileage than the H4 in the 2.5i model. So I consider the engine to be a huge plus, but the ONLY plus!!
In every other respect, I feel that the 05 2.5i model is superior, especially its refinement and handling. While Subaru added a bunch of insulation to the previous generation Bean model to make it quiet and refined, the new models -- even the base 2.5i -- are as good or better. In terms of handling, the new models are leaps and bounds ahead of the old models. The have a more sporting suspension and the steering response / accuracy is spectacular. The steering on the older Outbacks was pretty bad -- wishy-washy, no strong on-center feel, and kind of "ambivalent" feeling. It always bothered me, and I was glad to see it fixed in the new models.
I think the styling and looks of the 05 are much better too. Honestly, I was happy with my 02 -- it was like a comfortable plaid shirt -- but the 05 is dead sexy inside and out. I always thought the 00-04 Outbacks looked outdated even by 2000 standards. In contrast, the 05 looks very modern to me, and it has a lot of the features you would expect on an 05 model.
My advice is to get the 05. If you want some luxury features from the 04 Bean, consider stepping up to the 05 2.5i-Ltd. In the long run, the added cost will seem like peanuts compared to your happiness!
Craig
Bob
I personally would go with the 05 model, not simply because it's new and better looking, but because the chassis was designed specifically to accomodate the higher ground clearance of the new OBs.
The previous generation models, once you stripped away the taller suspension and body cladding, very similar between the Legacy and OB. Basically, the design was centered on the Legacy and then modified to become an OB.
For the 05 models, Subaru did more extensive redesigning just for the OB line. The chassis between the Legacy and OB are no longer identical which is a good thing for the higher center-of-gravity OB model. It's these fundamental improvements that result in the handling improvements Craig highlighted.
Also, the previous H6 was nice, but the HP was quite peaky. I think the combination of the lighter 05 chassis and improved transmission will narrow the true performance gap.
One last item -- if you don't like the looks of the 04 model now, you'll be kicking yourself when all you see are the 05+ models in a few years.
Ken
Also as it's an '05 it won't depreciate as fast as the '04 (unless you keep your cars a very long time)
Good luck
tom
The H6 engine is a gem, but remember the H4 will be pulling a lot less weight. 168hp to 212hp is not that big of a step up, and you will be using less gas and regular gas to boot.
Extended warranty? Do you want roadside assistance? Because that's included for free. Also, it might help resale. We have a 7/100, when it's 6 years old and has 80k miles, don't you think it'll be easier to sell with 20k miles and a year left on a bumper-to-bumper warranty? Bet we'll recover $300-400 right there.
I don't get how the S40 rated so highly in C&D. I thought the whole bottom half of that cockpit felt cheap, maybe 2-3 steps below the Legacy's fine interior. Go price a V50 T5 AWD and you'll faint.
-juice
I agree with you about the Volvo.My wife and I test drove one and were really surprised how cheap the bottom half of the cockpit looked. The Volo dealers are not to keen on dealing. Was told the best they could do on s40 awd was $700 off of sticker and the v50 awd would be sticker price. My biggest problem with the legacy GT is whether to go with a sedan or wagon.
Your inputs has helped us make our decision to pursue either 2.5i or 2.5 Limited wagon.
Now choosing between the above 2 is another story
The final C&D point standings were:
1. TSX- 212
2. S40- 196
3. LGT- 193
4. A4- 178
so the LGT was close to the Volvo, but far behind the TSX despite being the fastest.
The LGT lost points to the TSX:
2 for driver comfort
1 for the trunk (how different can the trunk be?)
3 for features/amenities
2 for fit and finish
1 for styling
2 for the tranny
1 for handling and 2 for ride
3 for "gotta have it factor"
2 for "fun to drive"
plus a few other points lost here and there.
I think you could easily argue 10 points as quite biased, I mean, "gotta have it?" the TSX is nowhere near the top of my list.
It's also interesting that despite the far more powerful engine, the LGT only beat out the TSX by 1 point. Hmmmm.
BTW, the Volvo gained 2 points on the trunk alone.
They clearly didn't like the "plasticky" interior, the frameless doors, and the 'heavy clutch'. They thought the suspension was a little soft, but docked it points for the ride. It sounds like they were looking for a luxo cruiser, not a sports sedan.
It's too bad it lost out to the Volvo by such a small margin. 2nd and 3rd sounds like a much bigger difference than it was.
Oh well, I was hoping for a good review but instead got a bunch of complaints. One good thing about the article is that it's clear the GT needs better tires. The volvo killed the 3 other cars in breaking from 70.
Something to add to my wish list. ;-)
tom
On fit and finish, I have re-fit and tucked in 3-4 pieces of the TSX interior. The exterior body panels fit well, but so do a lot of other cars.
I agree the TSX has more features, but styling is subjective. I think I like the Legacy GT look better.
I would think the TSX would be up more than 2 points on tranny -- it is way better than the Legacy (at least MT -- I bet the Legacy would rule if autos were tested).
On handling I can see 1 point, but on ride they are dead wrong. The TSX rides firmer than the Legacy and it has a lot of road noise and vibration coming up from the tires. No way it rides better than the Legacy, it's not in the same league in my experience.
Craig
I have the 2.5 GT w/5EAT. I, too, notice the stutter but in top gear at 60 MPH under acceleration that's hard but not hard enough to invoke a downshift. Once I get to 65 MPH it ceases. RPM is around 2350. It does not occur in 4th gear at that speed nor RPM. I had the local service manager for a ride and we experienced a roughness there (almost a shaking) but not the stutter. I was unable to duplicate it on the local back roads but always have it on the highway after sitting at 60 MPH for a while. Anyway the service manager was going to talk to the SOA rep today. Unfortunately I missed his call but will get with him Tuesday and hope that we can pursue and resolve this. I'll keep you posted.
DM