Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

poisson

nice pictures - the subwoofer is under the driver's seat....

c_hunter

Your observations are inline with mine. I typically adjust the temp up/down a notch to fine tune it to my tastes a few minutes after it gets going. Sometime it can get too hot or too cold before settling out. Then again, it could just as easily mean that we have selected too high or too low of a temp relative to our comfort level. The climate control system is just trying to reach the set point as quickly as possible.

Craig

c_hunter

On the VDC, the sub is located in the cargo area somewhere. I was hoping we could figure out exactly where in the cargo area! Apparently the wiring harness is there on all Outbacks, so it makes for a nice easy upgrade on non VDC models....

Craig

samiam_68

Looks like the OB/Legacy has the same retarded Climate Control as the Forester. Wait till you folks start getting real cold weather... A lot of threads on this on other forums. Also, my own fix for the POS climate control on the Forester:

http://www.geocities.com/samiam_68/SubaruCCS/SSC_Fix.htm

Don't know if this will work on the Legacy/OB.

c_hunter

I think it's new owner inexperience. After the auto climate control system on my 02 Outback trained me, I have been OK in the new 05 (and my wife's previous 03 Forester). So once you get beaten into submission, the systems work just fine....

Craig

mylegacy

in addition to the Ford 500, here another..

Lexus: The revamped GS300/ GS4340 arrive later in the model year
as the first Lexus sedans offered with all-wheel drive.

doug1

The subwoofer in the VDC models fills the right side storage compartment in the hatch area. A grate replaces the door to what is storage in the other models.

Doug

bat1161

Rwood: I agree that you should not take that at all. You have the right to go else where. I know that this past weekend I was at Richard Lucas Subaru on RT 1 in NJ, and they had 2 or 3 XT LTD on the lot. The car is out there, so they can't hold you over a barrell.
   Also, make sure you complain to SOA, both via their 800 number, and email. No dealer should treat it's customer that way.

Mark

bat1161

Snowbird:

Nice pics! Congrats again, and enjoy.

Mark

saedave

Juice

The Haldex's actions are completely programmable: More rear drive is commanded by rapid accellerator depression or changes in other chosen parameters such as yaw, application of brakes, etc. In next generation VW AWD models with ESP (their VDC) all of these control signals are present. A side note is the minimal price for ESP: About $200 in any VW model, even the cheapest.

There may ultimately be a consumer preference for the no-care nature of Haldex: easy towing and lack of sensitivity to tire differences.

Haldex may or may not be sporty according to the programming. Some manufacturers may opt for maximum fuel economy (almost all front wheel drive)instead.

Since Subaru offers a variety of AWD systems from which to choose, we can pick a model with the system of our choice.

ateixeira

The 500 is so big, I don't perceive it as being remotely sporty, so forget about comparisons to the GT. The regular Outback, maybe. But even then, 93% of Outbacks are wagons.

Which brings us to the Freestyle, but that's even bigger than the 500, heavier, 6-7 seats. Quality problems have already crept up and Ford is holding back delivery:

http://www.blueovalnews.com/2004/cars/fivehundred.quality092804.h- tm

So if you want a large fleet car that isn't remotely sporty and appears to be off to a typical-for-Ford low quality start, by all means, go for it.

If you want something smaller, sportier, more refined and much higher in quality, then the Subie is a natural choice.

-juice

snowbird

I went through a similar experience with my dealer in Canada. I put in my order for my VDC (now safely home in my driveway) in July. After 6-8 weeks, I phoned my dealer who was "wishy-washy" about the ETA of my car. I then asked him the phone # of "Consumer Support" of Subaru Canada. I did not want an 800 number and persisted until I got a direct tel. number. I then called and got help from a very helpful lady at Consumer Support. Thanks to her, I got my car 2 weeks later. I think the trick is - reach the top people, even the CEO of Subaru America, if you can, because most of the time, these big shots have no ideas what's going on in the dealerships. I would bet that if you send a letter to the CEO about your problem AND copy it to
your dealer, your would get a response pretty quickly. Good luck. Snowbird

saedave

Juice

I would be the last one to choose a Ford 500 or its wagon cousin...for all the reasons you state. But enthusiasts should not brush off vehicles with Haldex; think of VW's R32!

VW Passats with Haldex will be readily available next spring, so we'll see how well it works in something other than a Swedish boat or bloated Ford.

One advantage some of these other AWD vehicles have is ready availability of an electronic stability program. My current choice from Subaru is the Outback H-6 VDC, but my local dealer essentially says they are not available. Note the delivery problems that others have posted.

ateixeira

I didn't mean to brush it off, in fact the Haldex in the S60 impressed me a *lot*, in fact I would not get a Volvo without it.

I drove the FWD Volvo back-to-back and it was far less neutral with much worse understeer, plus poor take-off traction.

Still, without dismissing the Haldex completely, I maintain my clear preference for AWD systems engineered from the get-go to be truly full-time.

-juice

ateixeira

ateixeira "Town Hall Test Drive Team" Jul 29, 2003 10:57am

AWD? Even though it was a reactive system, starting at 95/5 front bias, it did react fairly quickly and felt different during my hot lap. Noticeably less understeer. Better off the line with power sent to the rear axle instead of wasted with brakes heating up (traction control).

So, better launch, better handling, no noticeable torque steer. A solid test that once again proves that I hate the way FWD feels and that AWD is better in almost every way, easily worth the $1750 they charge.

I gotta watch what I say! I quote myself a lot! LOL

But in honesty nothing in there contradicts what I've been saying here, Haldex is among the best of the FWD-based systems, but full-time AWD is even better.

Stability control is another issue entirely. I like that too, but not as much as I like AWD. SC makes the most of available traction, but AWD actually increases it.

-juice

sduford

Well said Juice. I agree with everything you said, however, I think Dynamic Stability Control is even MORE important on an AWD. Why? Because AWD, as good as it is, gives you a false sense of security on icy roads. Up here in Eastern Canada where we get more then our fair share of very slippery roads ranging from snow-covered to black-ice, I see more AWD vehicles in the ditch then anything else.

With a good AWD system you often do not notice how slippery the road has become, and you "over-drive" for the conditions. So you see lots of folks driving their AWD vehicles way too fast, and then they end-up in the ditch or in the back of another vehicle. I almost got caught myself a few times, even though I am well aware of this phenomenon, and I always use premium winter tires.

So I strongly believe that DSTC is a good way of keeping you out of trouble (or taking you out of it) and gently warning you that you are being stupid and driving too fast.

We have an old saying here: Driving an AWD means you will be going a lot faster when you skid off the road.

lfdal

juice - I agree with your assessment, but let me riddle you this one - would you rather have a car that's on the mediocre side, but with a great dealership, or a great car that every time it has anything the least bit unusual go wrong with it forces you through the pains of Hades to get fixed?

Rant on ....

You're surrounded by good Subaru dealerships, count your blessings. A lot of us aren't. My biggest, actually only, hesitation about recommending the brand to anyone in my area is the dealership's service.

Between the OBW and 2 Foresters I've learned way more than I wanted to know about working on new Subarus. I'm just glad I can do the work myself.

Puttering around is one thing, fixing warranty problems yourself because the dealer can't (won't) is another.

Rant off......

I'll be all better after the OBW's alarm gets fixed and the XT's coolant doesn't disappear.

Larry

lumbar

I've got to say I think the viability/benefit of AWD should rise and fall based on the system itself and not necessarily the manner in which it is driven by a wide variety of people. I've always felt that the "false sense of security" argument seems to punish the concept for the mindset of the driver, and is not really directed at anything inherent in the concept itself.

sduford

I'm not sure what you are getting at. I wasn't attacking the concept of AWD, not by a long shot. I was just suggesting that for AWD to truly be a big safety feature, we need to have DSTC paired with it.

It is also not just a question of driver mindset as you suggest. Even though I myself am very prudent in the winter, I have been caught off-guard by black-ice that I didn't even know was there because of my AWD's traction. Once I got home and my neighbour was commenting about how bad the road was, and I had not even noticed!

saedave

Well said. A four wheel drive vehicle can be LESS stable than front or rear drive if all four wheels are spinning: Reference the Fugi technical paper on VTD with VDC.

My Passat W8 AWD wagon is able to continue in a straight line in accel on snow with ESP on; with ESP off it tends to wiggle like a snake.

So when will Subaru make VDC truly available? I suppose we could move to Australia to get a new Legacy 3.0 VDC.

sduford

If like me you were disapointed that the top-rated Pirelli PZero Nero M+S was not available in the right size for the 2005 Outback XT (225/55-R17), do not despair!

Just for fun I started comparing the actual dimensions of the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S in 225/55-17 vs the Pirelli in 235/55-17. Turns out they are of identical diameter (27.1") and thread width (9.2"). The Pirelli even requires a few more turns per mile (968 vs 964) indicating that it is actually just a smidgen smaller than the Michelin. Best of all, it is $60 cheaper than the Michelin!

Does anyone see a problem using this tire?

kens

I agree that DSTC is a great safety feature to have when at the limit. My one big beef with Subaru is that they have not yet proliferated their VDC system to other models. Since VDC requires VTD and probably is costly, I've suggested they combine a more basic DSTC system with existing AWD systems.

However, the dark side to DSTC is that car manufacturers can mask poor handling by using it as an electronic band aid. As demonstrated in the C&D/R&T ride and drive event, the Volvo S60 when DSTC was turned off understeered badly through turns. The nice thing about Subarus is that they out-hussle many vehicles with DSTC on.

Ken

tsy

If you're stupid, even AWD + DSC won't save you. If you're on a big patch of ice, they won't save you either. Luck may save you, but even that runs out after a while. There will always be SUVs stuck in ditches as long as people equate 'AWD' with 'invincible'.

The best safety device is the one planted on your shoulders.

It's not that I'm against all this electronic intervention in my life, but in all my years of driving cars with electronic skid control of one sort or another, I had to try to get them to kick in and do something (just to test it). I've actually had more unsafe situations where my skid control kicked in at a bad time (trying to merge into traffic) because the computer was confused. I'm just not sure the complexity of these systems is worth whatever safety value there may be.

As a safe and controlled driver, give me full time AWD, ABS, and good judgment over DSC, ASC, VSC (or whatever else you want to call it) anytime.

tom

kyfdx

I know that is what the specs say.. but, I would take that with a grain of salt.. In general, the difference between 225/55-17 and 235/55-17 should be nearly 0.5 inches.. But, Michelin only shows a difference of 0.2 inches between the two sizes for their Pilot A/S. I doubt the difference in width will matter, but I wouldn't count on the two sizes being interchangeable in height.

I'm thinking the Michelin numbers on Tirerack for the 225/55-17 are wrong..

regards,
kyfdx

sduford

Well, good point.

So I went on the Michelin and Pirelli websites and checked their specs, and they macth what Tire Rack says.

I then went on the Bridgestone website to check the specs of the OE RE-92A tires.

Turns out they are 26.9" high and 9.0" wide, so .2" smaller in both directions. The Revs per mile is 775, or 7 more then the Pirellis. So with the Pirellis you would see less than a 1% reduction on the spedometer/odometer.

Sly

bkaiser1

Having just put new 225/45-17 PZero Nero tires on my WRX, I can say that the tread is noticably narrower than the RE070's of the same size that I replaced. Some tires tend to run larger than others, and the RE070's were definitely meatier than the PZero's of the same size. I'd tend to believe the numbers: the 235/55's might well be that close in size to the 225/55's.

Brian

ozman62

Tom, you couldn't have said it better. Besides, there are times when you 'might' want to hang that back end out a little...
Owen

sduford

Well if you think it's just a matter of having a head on your shoulders, then you've obviously never experienced black-ice. By its very nature, black-ice is very sneaky as conditions usually go from a slight coat of moisture on the pavement to black-ice, but it still looks like just slightly wet pavement. When this happens, we usually get dozens of accidents.

I'm neither stupid nor careless, but there were conditions where I sometimes did not realize what the conditions were really like, and AWD makes it even harder to detect. Having DSTC kick in a couple of times and the light flashing; that is an excellent way to tell you that something is going on with the road conditions.

I'm not advocating DSTC as a way to allow people to drive carelessly, and people should never rely on it, or on AWD, or on ABS for that matter. However, these are all things that can take you out of trouble when you occasionally get caught off-guard.

As such, if Subaru is really as concerned about safety as they say they are, then they have a duty to make DSTC available on all models, at a reasonable price.

kens

If I'm not mistaken, there is an AWD indicator light on the dash of my 05 LGT wagon (5EAT, however). I wonder if it's supposed to go off whenever it's active. If that is the case, then it could also be as effective as the DSTC light going off.

Another helpful tool is your temperature gauge. I believe it starts blinking when it measures an exterior temperature of 35 degrees or less.

Black ice is scary. It really looks like wet pavement, but you start going sideways on it. However, no AWD or DSTC is going to help you when all four tires have zero friction.

Ken

tsy

Driving safely means driving more carefully and SLOWLY when black ice is a possibility. I lived for many years in the NE and yes have seen black ice, experienced it once. That was enough. Hence, driving more carefully and looking for it (or even where it could be) I never experienced it again, although I attribute part of this to luck. Ice is no fun, even if you have AWD and DSC, you will move in the direction of your momentum when you hit the ice, and hopefully can get some control when you leave the patch of ice before going into a ditch (or something worse).

Please don't misunderstand me, I don't think DSC is a bad thing for most drivers, and if you're careful it may help you, but it's not going to save you from yourself (not you, sduford, this is not a personal affront) if you lack judgment.

Owen, I agree, it is fun to hang it out sometimes! In a very controlled manner, of course. ;-) I thoroughly am enjoying this car!

tom

hypov

I think what Tom is saying is ultimately it is still up to that coconut on our shoulders.

Having DSTC kick in a couple of times and the light flashing; that is an excellent way to tell you that something is going on with the road conditions.

But by then one would already be in knee deep.
With those flashing light, one would still be caught off guard. Black ice is sneaky

DSTC, AWD, ABS, etc... can assist one in getting out of trouble, but defintely cannot take one out of trouble.

-Dave

tsy

Yeah, what he said. ;-) Thanks Dave.

DSTC, AWD, ABS, etc... can assist one in getting out of trouble, but defintely cannot take one out of trouble.

Or prevent you from getting into trouble!

tom

aussie outback

FYI - we have digital speedo checkers in Australia on the roads every now and then.

If I recall, the last time I drove through one of these contraptions, the speedo was reading 108km/h, the actual speed was 100 km/h. So the over-read is 8% (on correctly inflated tyres with 3000 miles on).

So a 1% change to the speedo is not only neglible, but if is a reduction, then a bonus.

- Aussie Outback

kmclean

File this one in the "lessons learned" folder.

If you didn't specify a "not-later-than" delivery date, then you don't have a leg to stand on (hence their attitude). Now you know better for the next car (or anything else) purchase.

If you did specify a date, contact the NY State Attorney General's Office of Consumer Fraud (however they describe it) and have at it.

Contract law exists for a reason. Let the ignorant beware.

Hope this works out in your favor.

Been there - done that.

Ken in (cynical and wet) Seattle

c_hunter

Hmmm, very interesting. The only question I have -- the Michelins were spec'd on 7" wide wheels, while the Pirellis were spec'd on 7.5" wheels, so the section width number may not be directly comparable. Otherwise, the tires look very close. I think the 235 Pirellis would probably work out fine, but it would be good to call the TireRack and talk this over with a sales advisor.

Craig

rsorganize

Just wanted to get back to the question of winter tires for my '05 VDC. Getting close to the snows, so would really appreciate thoughts on/experiences with best winter tires.

Pushing 11,000 mi. Car great. One small point, besides the narrow seat (tempur-cushion doing the job) and hook on driver-side floormat breaking off: stereo/climate control lights has gone out a few times, while the temp/display lights remain on; a couple of taps bring them back. No big deal, should be easily fixed. Oh, and maybe a slight click/knock when the drivers window goes down. Pretty good, I say.

One more thing: anyone install satellite radio? Curious on 'how' this was done?

Peace.

sduford

Well, first of all, I never said that DSTC would do miracles and allow you do drive like a maniac or get you out of any sitution you get into. but it is a nice additional piece of safety equipment that can make a huge difference in some situations.

What I meant about the light flashing is that usually, before you hit a big patch of black ice, things slowly start to get icy, and that is when the system would give a warning, well BEFORE things get really serious.

The temperature indicator is nice, but if we just followed that out here, we would never drive in the winter! Because of all the road salt being used on the roads up here, you often have wet pavement even though the temperature may be 20 degrees below freezing. That is not the condition that normally causes black-ice.

doug1

I'm planning on getting Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50s for my Outback XT. In the interest of saving money, I'm going to get 16 rather than 17" wheels, with the tire size being 225-60, 16 (like with the base Outback). Haven't decided yet if I'll get steel or alloy wheels for the winter. Tirerack has some decent looking alloys for a little over $100 each.

I've had WS-50s (and the preceding WS-15) previously on my old '96 Legacy. They were incredible winter tires. Very good on ice and snow, and the tire wear was surprisingly good. I got 5-6 seasons out of them, and I left them on from Thanksgiving to sometime in April (often out of laziness rather than need).

Doug

rsorganize

Thanks, Doug. I'll check them out.

Do you really think it necessary to use different wheels? With our Volvos, the dealer always said that the different wheels would hold up better than the original. But, the tire dealer I go to - a great and honest guy - always said the opposite (even though he sold wheels...for much less than the dealer). His view is that the original wheels rarely are problematic. With our '96 960 Volvo, we bought the 'winter' wheels. With my '99 XC, we did not buy them...and, there was never a problem through 5 pretty long New England winters.

rob_m

Using different wheels might be a convenience issue when it comes time to change over. Also, I am not sure if there are issues when having tires mounted and re-mounted multiple times.

sduford

Rob is correct: frequent tire mounting/unmounting can damage both the tires and the wheels. Also, with the cost of mounting and balancing tires, you will pay for about one steel wheel every time. Most shops also charge extra for mounting tires on alloy wheels and/or large diameter wheels.

I'm also planning to get 4 Blizzak WS-50s with wheels for my car, they are awesome on snow and ice. But I'm thinking I might use the stock wheels for winter and order some fancy wheels when I buy ultra-high performance tires next summer.
If you do more highway driving on dry pavement (I drive in the mountains and on dirt roads, so I need all the traction I can get) then you should also look at the Dunlop Winter Sport M3 which is not quite as good as the Blizzak on ice and snow, but provides a quieter ride and better handling and steering response on dry pavement.

rwoods

I agree completely with tsy and wish to add one thing. Excellent tires, properly inflated add much to overall safety. I suspect that the Firestone/Ford Explorer fiasco was caused by drivers with old tires, improperly inflated with overloaded vehicles. When bad things happened, the lawyers piled on and Ford and Firestone got slammed.

rwoods

Ken,

You are correct. I did forget to specify a "not later than" date. The small print in the contract specifies that the contract can be voided if the dealer fails to deliver the car 30 days after the "promised" date. In my case that was "4-5 weeks". So if 9 weeks passes I think I would have a good argument to get the deposit back.

That said, I still really want the car and will be patient. I feel that they ultimately will deliver it but it burns me to see them with the upper hand. Perhaps there will be a dealer rating sent to me from Subaru and I will have a chance to zing them.

kens

Regardless of what was specified, you should be able to get your deposit back even before the vehicle arrives. The vehicle isn't sold until you finish the paperwork. Also, the dealer really doesn't lose out -- they still get the vehicle delivered to them and it's free for them to sell anyway.

Do you have any other dealers nearby?

Ken

snowbelter

I was at my dealer today for service and out of curiousity asked a saleperson about the lack of VDCs on the lot. Haven't seen any for months. I was told that VDCs were "on allocation" as SOA wasn't planning on making many as they are pushing the LLBean as the "top of the line luxury Subaru". When VDCs first came out this dealer stocked six or so at a time. In the past year they have only had one at a time. I was told they just didn't sell and that the dealers traded amongst each other for a particular color when someone wanted one. My wife and I each have a VDC and we're probably one of the few households with more than one.

timo1745

Hi Gang-

I've been following the 'winter tire/wheel' discussion closely, too. I've only had my '05 OBXTL 5MT for a month, and haven't had it in snow yet. Overall, I'm fairly happy with the OE Bridgestone RE-92A's on dry & wet pavement. I will say, ever since I got a set of studded snows on steel wheels for my '91 5-Series last winter, I've become an advocate/believer in what a good set of snows can buy you on snow/ice. So, I guess I'm saying that I'm torn on what to do now that I have an AWD car, and no money for a new set of snows.

I'm not a huge fan of the OB XT wheels, and thought I might just mount my buddy's set of used Michelin Artic Alpins on them, then re-mount my stock Bridgestones onto some new BBS if I have the $$$ come spring-time. Problem is, the Alpins (used 2 seasons)are size 215/45-17. I calculate this is about a 5MPH difference at 65-70MPH, which I could probably live with for 3 months, especially for the $150 he wants for them.

Any thoughts?

Tim G.

ps: If anyone wants my $.02 worth on an awesome snow tire, pick up a set of Nokian Hakkapalita Q's (studded). Absolutely incredible, and not like the ol' obnoxious studded tires many of us grew up with. Wish we could fit 15" wheels on these cars, so I could reuse mine!

khallock

My husband and I have been talking about winter tires for my new LLBean Outback also. We live in northern Vermont so I think we are going to bite the bullet and buy a set of snows. I've had great luck with Cooper Weathermasters on my old Corolla so we might get a set of those. Saw them somewhere online for $93 a tire. Might spring for another set of rims also, just because it sucks paying for tires to get mounted 2x a year.

My LLBean has 17" wheels so the tires are pretty $$. I dont want to risk not getting snows though, and perhaps wrecking my new car if I end up sliding on ice.

rwoods

Ken,

I do have a number of dealers nearby but the truth is that I priced this vehicle around and my dealer was $1,000 below the best price I found. I wonder if they may be having second thoughts on the price they gave me and now might want to have me "go away". But this is just my Irish paranoia.

Bob

jchu

Dealers have connections to each other, to get more sales, they always treat between. They should have no problems to get a car for customers. It happens in here (Massachusetts) all the time. I bought my silver OBXTLtd in Natick, Mass, but it was not in the stock when I asked sales person for a silver. He told me that is not a problem at all. He can get what I want. Then the car was there with 2 days, which was transferred from New Hampshire (the window sticker showed the original stock location). I also had same experience with Toyota dealer. May be it’s different in your area. But they do want to make money, don’t they? Hope you can get your car soon. Good luck!

John

rsorganize

I kinda like the wheels on my VDC. When my tire dealer said that winter wheels weren't really necessary on my Volvo XC, I'll admit I felt better...not just because I actually saved money (inclduing mounting/re-mounting) but the Volvo winter wheels were just plain ugly.

So...if there is an emerging consensus on getting the winter wheels: any good ideas on wheels that look good?

Peace.