All I can say is I've driven my Legacy GT in and around Boston for the past 7 years, and if you want to see lousy streets, come here. Never had a problem bottoming out, or anything like that. I'm more interested in the Legacy's lower center of gravity, especially given all the "rollover" accidents I hear about daily on radio traffic reports. I could care less about "sitting up high." Looks are important to me too, and I just don't care for the cladding, white letter tires, and the other SUV-style accoutrements on the Outback. But to each his own. Outback's a great car..just not my style.
While I am definitely leaning towards the Outback over the Legacy wagon, just curious how much of an advantage the Outback has over the Legacy wagon with regards to handling inclimate weather. I live just outside Washington, DC we sometimes get snowfalls of 8-10" in a 24 hour period. While the Legacy be able to traverse through unplowed side streets with this much accumulation? What about handling rainy weather, does the Outback have an advantage?
"here are your instructions, this works, even though it does sound hokey.
1) Turn key to on position-don't start. 2) After first set of chimes click seat belt in and out 20 times within 30 seconds. 3) Turn off key. 4) (IGNORE THIS STEP!!!) [Repeat 1, 2, 3 again] 5) Turn key off and re-start
To clarify:
turn on car = on but not started beeping starts = first set of beeps when you turn on the car "
I am getting ready to take off for a week of (much-deserved) vacation, so I needed my last "Forum Fix" before I left!
Here are the latest Outback and Legacy reviews links. Please post any updates, additions or corrections you'd like to see. Geesh...this is becoming an encyclopedia!
The difference in ground clearance between the two vehicles is about 2.5" in the Outback's favor. The exact amount depends on which two models you are comparing.
I've found the ability to get through snow sometimes depends more on the type of snow (wet vs. powder) than a few extra inches of clearance.
Here's a great page that summarizes the differences:
If you liked your 97 you will absolutely love the 2005s, they are a giant leap forward for Subaru. But with that leap Subies now find themselves being compared to premium German sedans and people start to be a little more picky about the details.
I absolutely love my new Outback XT Limited 5MT and would buy it again without question. Does that mean I think it is perfect? Not by any means. But I do think it provides incredible performance, value, and capabilities. I have been nit picking the car myself on this forum, but generally it was just that, picking nits!
Lack of lights on the sunroof buttons? Who cares. Cheap stereo? Yeah it is not exactly premium but it is better than average, especially with CDs. I do find the FM radio a bit lacking. Lack of steering mounted radio controls? A small annoyance for sure, but I LOVE that Momo steering wheel and I wouldn't trade it for anything else. Narrow seats? I'm a big guy and I do find them a tad narrow, but they are certainly better than average and better than anything in this price class. Not Volvo seats for sure, but adequate.
Carpet hooks breaking? Yeah, broke off the first time I used the car, very stupid system. But hey, the carpets are staying put, so no big deal. Turbo lag? Well, it is a turbo, but lag is not noticable in most circumstances, and I'd much rather have that huge torque curve than no turbo. I think most people are actually bothered by the "auto tranny" lag; turbo lag is just a fraction of a second.
Automatic Climate Control? yeah, this one is bothersome. It is nearly useless and I found myself just not bothering with it anymore and doing my own climate controlling. I also wish it had a bigger gas tank and memory settings on the seats.
But look at it this way: you get significantly better performance than a BMW 330i for less than the price of a bare bones 325, and you get a lot more equipment, better reliability and AWD at that price too.
This criticizing is what Subaru gets for nibbling at the big boy's heels, so they do have a few small lessons to learn to survive those direct comparisons, but if you factor in the price, it is really no contest. The car provides smiles and enjoyment in spades.
Speaking of ACC, I have totally given up on it. It is a total piece of crap. I thought it was due to this being a new model year, but now I learn that Subaru has had similar issues with ACC for years, and that an individual even came out with a fix for the Foresters.
I find it hard to believe that Subaru's obviously very talented engineers are not capable of producing a decent ACC system. This is a disgrace on Subaru and the single biggest annoyance I have with my otherwise brilliant Outback XT. It should be renamed RCG for Random Climate Generator.
How about starting a petition and demanding that Subaru recall these units and provide a fix for the ACC? Afterall, when I bought this car I did expect an ACC and I paid for one. The fact that this ACC system is really worse than having none at all could be construed as false advertising.
I think we should all start writing to Subaru right now and complain about this useless ACC.
Can someone please summarize what exactly the problem is wth the ACC? As a new Subie owner of a VDC wagon, I have always found the air-conditioning work very well and cools the cabin quite effectively. Am I missing something? Is the "problem" limited to turbos only? I agree the buttons are a little confusing,though. Thanks. Snowbird.
I might be missing something here...but, by and large, my ACC has been working as 'advertised'/expected. It's at least as good, reliable and predictable as my Volvo XC ('99)...probably better. The only thing I have had to get used to is the cooler air that invariably comes out for a few minutes when I am getting going for the first time in the morning. My guess is that this is because the car is garaged and the garage temperature is usually quite different than the outside temp. Once I'm going, though, it's been fine. Making adjustments are pretty darn easy - turning a knob!! - and I actually find that I'm readily able to find a comfortable temperature. I suppose that I am making more adjustments than on the Volvo and, perhaps, that's because the sensors are more sensitive? All in all, though, it's been fine for me.
The main problem is that it overshoots it's set temperature by several degrees, and will often continue to oscillate up and down like that.
So if you set your temp at say 72, it will actually cool (or heat) several degrees beyond that before slowing down. It will sometimes go the other way too and oscillate like that. The results being that it is really never at 72 degrees. So I find myself having to fiddle with the temperature knob because I get way too hot (or cold) before it settles down. But sometimes, just moving the knob 1 or 2 degrees will cause a sudden blast of cold (or hot) air when it is neither needed nor wanted. I also often have to switch to manual because it is blasting cold air in my face when I don't need it.
It often gets fooled by sunshine and will blast cold air when the inside tmeperature doesn't demand it. It uses the A/C way more than needed: when the outside air is several degrees lower than the inside air, it should just use fresh air to cool things off, with out using A/C.
The other problem is that there is no temperature sensor on the passenger side, so it can't really control the temp on the passenger side, it seems to only output a "temperature difference" with the driver's side, which is often not right, since if the sun is on one side or the other, the cooling (or heating) requirements can be vastly different.
We rented a Volvo XC-70 last summer and we were able to set the tmeperatures once and forget about it, and we were neve uncomfortable because of excessive cold or hot air when it is not needed.
As it is on my Subie, it's a lot easier and more comfortable to just leave it in manual and make it do what I want. But even that can be a challenge, as simply pressing one button causes other settings to be set for you automatically.
Someone on another forum nicknamed his ACC "HAL", after the out of control computer in 2001 Space Oddissey who decided to take things into his own hands, because he "knew what was best for the mission". Someone here jokingly said that the problem was really with the owner, and that once the ACC had beated the owner into submission, things worked just fine.
I suspect that those who think it works fine live in hot climates where you can never get too much cold air. But here in more temperate climes, where it needs to produce only moderate cooling or heating (for now, soon it will get VERY cold), it overdoes it and takes way too long to settle down.
I also bought from metric. This was also my second in 2 years. Great salesman (Roland). Picked up my 05 Legacy GT Limited sedan beginning of July. They also have a great service department.
Thank you for taking the time with such a detailed explanation. While I think we're agreed that this is a terrific car, IMO it's also important to preserve objectivity and get the warts on the table as well.
Great, it's always nice to have a contact. Most of our previous purchases have been via a family friend who had a BMW / Honda Dealership ...got completely spoiled. When we were shopping around for my '02 we ran into some real "classic" car salesmen at a few of the Subaru dealerships we visted. It was disconcerting.
It's also nice to see that a number of folks have either bought a 2nd Suburu or recently traded up, makes me feel a bit better. Trading in my 02 will represent the first time that I haven't driven my car into the ground...
Oh, and dc_driver, I'm in the exact same boat you are except I'm in NYC. I'm starting to lean Legacy Wagon ...
Just got my brand new 2005 outback 3.0 r vdc limited a few days ago. I'm a big Sirius fan. Whether it's XM or Sirius you're into, installation issues are the same for now. The only option is FM modulation. Reason is the 05 does not have an aux. input nor does it have a cassette tape player, which are the only other two alternatives to getting audio from your sat. radio. The best option of course is the aux input. My only gripe with SOA is their lack of foresight into the growing popularity of satellite radio and how to accommodate those who like to listen to their fav tunes while they drive with minimal fuss. Ok, here's what my set up is: I've got the Kenwood Here2Anywhere (KTC-H2A1) portable sirius tuner and the FM modulator cradle Car Docking Kit (KPA-H2CFM). The antenna comes with the car docking kit. I placed the tuner in its cradle, turned on the fm mod switch, selected 88.1 switch on both the rear of the cradle and on the outback's FM stereo tuner (your selection may vary according to your area). Plugged in the antenna and the cig lighter power adapter. Unscrewed the base of the cradle so i could fit it into the sunglass compartment. Stuffed some pieces of black foam to keep it stable and not cover the ventilation on the tuner unit - very important. I ran the antenna wire down inside the glove box and up across the front passenger molding / totally non-invasive procedure, and set the antenna on top of the car, just behind the moon roof. While FM mod is not the best choice, it's all we've got for now until some third party or subaru comes up with a specific adapter to convert their present system to one that uses an aux input. By the way, I overheard my subie sales rep say that it was a panasonic system on the new 05 limited. Shop around for other FM modulation units, but keep in mind this one fits right into the sunglass compartment. If you want yours on the dash, or elsewhere, the unit's form is a factor.
Some Subaru owners were justifiably concerned when stories about privacy invasion surfaced in relation to OnStar. See http://news.com.com/2100-1029_3-5109435.html. The privacy issues still exist. At first I was disappointed that subaru had dropped OnStar on the 05 models. Then I learned why. Now I'm glad OnStar is out. Until they can guarantee there will be now invasion of privacy and no eavesdropping capability, OnStar is not an option as far as I'm concerned. See http://www.theharrowgroup.com/articles/20040329/20040329.htm#_Toc- 67729177 and scroll down to "Your Car May NOT Be Your Friend!"
I agree with Sduford, Subaru's ACC is inferior to other makers' systems. On my '99 Accord, I would set the temp at 72, and never have to adjust. My '05 Legacy's ACC needs constant adjustment.
But this is not my biggest complaint; my biggest complaint is toxic fumes coming in from the outside when the car is stopped.
OK, I'm persuaded. I've been deluding myself about the ACC. Clearly, it could and should be better - especially on a $34,000 car. It doesn't bother me that much, but you are right...one should be able to set it and forget about it. Oh well....
BTW, I live in New England, western Mass., near the VT. border...not exactly a 'hot clime'.
Strange. I think the Auto climate control works fine. Sure, I do need to adjust the temp by 1 or 2 degrees every now and then, but for the most part it's requiring far less adjustment compared to if it were a full manual system. That's my measure if an "automatic" system works well.
Honestly, I've yet to find any climate control system on a car that requires absolutely no fine tuning. Every system I know of uses just a few measurement points to try and estimate what's comfortable for the driver. It may also be that I don't expect an auto climate control to read my mind, similar to an automatic transmission.
sduford -- I wonder if maybe there's something wrong with either the cabin temperature thermocouple or the solar sensor on your vehicle. It's hard to believe we're talking about the same system!
In addition to the dealer checking those out, you may also want to look into the fix used by some Forester XT owners. One fellow added a very tiny fan to draw cabin air directly over the thermocouple. I don't recall where the modification was posted, however.
I just switched from a 2001 Audi allroad with 49,000 miles to a 2005 Outback LLBean. The Audi has a bit more interior room, more low-end power (from 2.7 liter turbo V6) and I guess it has a higher prestige factor. But my allroad was very unreliable: Replaced torque converter at 22K miles,constantly leaked oil, replaced brake rotors twice, impossible to balance wheels, and so on. Plus the allroad did not hold its value well at all. I'm much happier with the Outback, it's a bit slower off the line but catches up and surpasses the allroad quickly. If you go with the Outback XT you'll be even quicker off the line. The Outback is lighter and more nimble, seats are more comfortable and the H6 Outback gets 21 mpg vs. 18 mpg for the allroad.
My recommendation - a new Outback is easily a better choice than a used allroad.
You better read the article you linked to again. The reason the court ordered the FBI not to use it wasn't because the court felt it was an invasion of privacy - it was because by eavesdropping, it disabled OnStar's ability to monitor for an accident. The court felt that it would interfere with the contractual obligation between provider and subscriber.
The article states that if the FBI could listen in without disabling the emergency response capabilities of the system, the court wouldn't have an issue with it.
The auto climate control in my 00 Odyssey works flawlessly. I set it for 68 year round and leave it alone for the most part. I might help it along occassionally by turning on the rear HVAC.
Don't get me wrong, i'm most definitely in the Subaru camp!! In fact, if things fall my way (read: new job comes through!), i plan on upgrading from my 02 WRX to an OXT (still debating MT vs. AT). I just think it would be interesting to see a formal comparison between the two, but i'm also guessing that Audi wouldn't really like seeing their $50k flagship getting it's butt kicked by a car which costs $30k less!!!
Thanks for the info!! I'm jealous of all you new Outback/Legacy owners!!
Does anyone know why dealerships all over the northwest seem to have NO stock on the 05 Outback VDC model? I bought an 05 Outback LLBean and love it. A family member now wants the H6 engine, but is interested in red. The only way to get that combination is with the VDC. I've been watching dealership inventory all over Washington, Oregon, Nevada, and northern CA and haven't seen a VDC in stock yet. What gives?
Let me start off by saying "Been there, done that". My fiancee and I were contemplating the same thing; a C.P.O'ed Allroad looked like the perfect car for us. I guess the "mistake" I made was to spend some time researching Audi's reliability, cost of ownership, replacement parts and the general opinion of people who've owned these cars. Yikes! So much for that idea...
Just my $.02, but don't waste your time on an Audi Allroad...solid AWD system, but not-so-solid motor (I believe the 2.7T is 'history') and lots of neat gimmicks (like air suspension) which break and cost jillions to fix. Enter Subaru. Kinda' looks like a "poor man's Allroad" if you ask me, but that was one of the things which drew us to the 2005 OB. The performance, versatility and reliability was the deal-maker for us. Besides, an '01 Allroad was going for more than I paid for my '05 OBXT Limited!
I have PZero Nero M+S tires on my WRX (225/45/17) and have been very impressed so far. I haven't driven in snow yet, but they apparently do well. On the highway, they are very quiet and they ride great -- 2 things I didn't expect from high performance tires with a 45 percent aspect ratio.
Compared to the RE92's and RE070's I had previously, I feel these are much better tires for the types of driving I do (mostly highway).
Sduford, Let's not forget about the warm or hot air coming out of the vents when you have the CC on 65 and fresh air. And how about the exhaust fumes coming in the car when the sun roof is open and the car is put into medium or hard acceleration, and no memory on the power seats or no lights on the auto locks or interior lights, My wifes 04 Forrester Turbo has been trouble free from day one, but I sure can't say the same thing about my new 05 Leg. GT Ltd. with 1800 miles. The worst thing is that these same complaints are being said on a lot of other formus, which means the problems with the exhaust fumes and the warm or hot air is a design or engineering flaw which will have to be fixed by the mfg. This will more than likely take a long time, and I for one do not intend to drive a car with exhaust fumes, etc.. Subaru should be ashamed of themselves putting out a product like the 05 Leg. sedan GT.ltd. with serious flaws like exhaust fumes coming in the pass. compartment. And let's not forget no way to get vdc. on any except one model. (The Vdc wagon). I wish I had bought the Acura TL for a few thousand more. This is my opinion, I know some of you will not agree with me, but again, this is how I feel and you can't argue with the facts!
You are absolutely right. I'm now waiting for SOA to tell my service manager how to fix both problems. I'll post the answer on this formum. If it's not satisfactory, then I will expect Subaru to buy my 05 Leg. GT. LTD back. Can you imagine driving a new $30, 000 car with exhaust fumes coming in the passanger compartment, and no way to get cool outside air in unless the AC is on. I said it before and I'll say it again, Subaru should be ashamed of themselfs putting out a product like the 05 Leg. GT Ltd. with so many serious flaws, and such inferior engineering!
Well your problem with exhaust fume is certainly not normal and not something most of us are experiencing. So please do go see your dealer and get it fixed. I also have not noticed any problems with warm air coming in.
The lack of lights on some buttons doesn't bother me at all, they are all vey easy to find anyway, so it is a very minor annoyance at worst. As for the lack of memory on the seat or VDC, didn't you know that before you bought the car??? Yes, I would like to have both of those options on mine, and would have been willing to pay for them. But when I decided to buy the Outback XT I was willing to live without them. If you're not, then you obviously shouldn't have bought the car in the first place!!
I'm on the east coast. No VDC's here either. Been waiting now 8 weeks for mine. By the time the 05 gets here the 06's will be out. Talk about out-of-stock. Oh will should be here by the time the snow shows up in N.Y.
If you check out some of the other forums you will see there are many people experiencing the very dangerous fumes problem. My car is a 05 Leg. sedan GT. Ltd. And the warm air problem is being experienced by a lot of 05 GT Ltd. owners. I have been to the dealer and the Service Manager agrees that these 2 problems are design and or eng. flaws and is waiting for a way to fix both problems. You have a Outback xt and I am glad you are not having these problems, but me and a whole lot of other GT owners are. My wifes 04 Forrester has been trouble free from day one, but I can't say the same for my 05 Leg. GT Ltd. sedan. This is my opinion.
Well if it is a design flaw then I would be pissed-off too and I wish you good luck in getting it fixed. Exhaust fumes coming inside sounds like a very serious problem and one that warrants a recall or you could probably sue Subaru and get your money back.
The TSX is more comparable to the Legacy GT than the TL. The TL is not as sporty and more of a luxury cruiser. I have tried a TL myself and thought it was a very very nice car, certainly a notch above the Subaru in terms of comfort and luxury. However, you have to be willing to live with wicked torque steer and no AWD. I personally would much rather have AWD and no VDC or memory seats then the other way around!
Those are the "exact" reasons I bought the GT Ltd. instead of the TL. But I "never" expected to have fumes coming in the pass. compartment, or warm air coming out of the vents. Like outside air was 79 and the air coming out of the vents was 101. The readings were taken by my Service Manager at the dealership. And I took the Service Manager for a ride in my 05 GT Ltd. sedan and he agreed there was "not just a small amt. but a whole lot of exhaust fumes coming in the car under medium acceleration. By the way, my dealership is one of the best dealerships that I have ever dealt with. They are right there when you have any kind of a problem.
Why would exhaust be coming into the passenger compartment? The entire exhaust system should be pretty much enclosed from the engine to the tailpipe? If it's leaking something I would think you would hear it and it would alter the performance of the car. It can't be a design flaw because not all cars have it (mine doesn't, and I am very sensitive to airborne chemicals/smells/etc). Very curious.
I hope they find a fix for you, I agree, it not only shouldn't happen but is potentially dangerous (Carbon monoxide binds your blood much more effectively than oxygen- so it stays with you a long time!). If it makes you drowsy it's a potential liability for Subaru.
I would think your dealer could at least find a leak somewhere- even small leaks in the exhaust are quite loud.
I've owned my LGT wagon for close to 6K miles now and not once have I experienced exhaust fumes coming in from the vehicle. I've driven with every possible combination of moonroof and windows open/closed too.
I'm wondering if there is some leak either in the the exhaust or the turbo up/down pipe. Can you smell the exhaust fumes by the engine bay if you have someone rev the engine while in neutral?
The complaints I've heard about people getting warm air through their vents have mainly been from people not realizing that the HVAC unit, unless turned down to 65, will add some heat into the fresh air flow. Certainly not to the note of 101 degrees, however!
It is not dangerous. I have owned numerous musclecars with exhaust that terminated well in front of the rear axle and yes, you'll get some fumes when idling. Remember when you were a kid and EVERY car you rode in was like that, and every car you followed in tight traffic stunk up the air?
A new Subaru puts out nowhere near that level of emissions. And besides, you have to be in fully enclosed air for some time for carbon monoxide to be dangerous. It doesn't happen just idling in the street, no matter what you smell.
--Anyway enough about that. On this problem car, is the engine running OK? Good gas mileage, idles normally, strong acceleration, smooth operation?
Actually Colin, you're quite wrong about Carbon Monoxide poisoning. I know you're knowledgable about many things but CO poisoning kills people, approximately 500 every year in this country are unintentionally fatally poisoned. This doesn't include deaths from suicide attempts. There are 40,000 ER visits per year because of CO poisoning. Yes it 'helps' to be in a small enclosed space, but it can occur in large enclosed spaces, much bigger than the cabin of your car. CO is a byproduct of any combustion, not just engines. A common story of CO poisoning is people lighting small stoves inside to keep warm in the winter. But did you know just smoking a cigarette you will inhale enough carbon monoxide to decrease the oxygen to your tissues? Did you also know that, like I was explaining, Carbon monoxide binds to your blood 200 times stronger than oxygen- it doesn't want to let go, which means your blood is not carrying oxygen and you are not getting oxygen to your tissues, especially your heart and your brain, which is, to put it in simple lay terms, bad.
Carbon monoxide can cause cardiac depression to the point of causing heart attacks. Also considered bad. There are further disturbances on a biochemical level which I won't go into.
Please don't diminish the dangers of Carbon Monoxide. Will the CO coming out of your car kill you if you're young and healthy?- probably not. Is it unhealthy?- yes. Can small amounts make you sleepy and nauseous?- yes. Is this bad while driving?- yes. Are there neurologic deficits associated with chronic CO poisoning?- probably, there's some evidence to suggest this, but we're still finding out.
While we shouldn't be alarmist, we shouldn't take it casually either. CO exposure is a serious problem not to be taken lightly. Just because exhaust fumes were ok in the past doesn't mean it's ok today in a modern automobile, and I certainly wouldn't accept it in a car that I drive my children or parents around in.
Sorry for the long post.
Uh, I still really like my LGT Ltd. It really is fun to drive without being punishing. It's almost 2 cars (Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde), one a quiet, comfortable commuter, but it also can really tear up some road once you get the revs up!
Is the arm rest extension available through Subaru yet? I just ordered a new GT and decided to add the arm rest extension to it, but my dealer does not have any info on the item. They checked with parts but did not come up with anything. Anyone have any info on this item and its availibility? Thanks Don
that sounds more like religion than medical opinion, Tom. the absurdity of some of your examples has drowned out whatever you were attempting to communicate.
you *won't* die from carbon monoxide poisoning from any vehicle in the open air. have you ever been trackside at a motorsport event? nascar or NHRA, it doesn't matter, the air quality is AWFUL and yet strangely no one dies. headaches and annoyance, perhaps so.
also, did you notice that I was attempting to discern the nature of the vehicle's problem? I assumed that the problem was a severe annoyance, but still heartily refute that it is a *danger*.
Is the arm rest extension available through Subaru yet? I just ordered a new GT and decided to add the arm rest extension to it, but my dealer does not have any info on the item. They checked with parts but did not come up with anything. Anyone have any info on this item and its availibility? Thanks Don
I've heard of other owner's buying and installing this option by themselves. Apparently, it's very easy to do. You might want to check some dealerships that sell parts online like Carter Subaru: http://www.allsubaru.com
Colin, please don't take this the wrong way. There's no need to be condescending. I know you were trying to help, which we all are.
No, you won't die of CO poisoning at a Nascar event. But prolonged and frequent exposure to CO is probably not a good thing, whether enclosed inside your car or your home. That's all I was trying to explain. I'm sorry if you didn't understand it, but everything I quoted was medical science, not religion. If you have some scientific evidence to the contrary other than your own observations, I'd love to hear it. If not, please don't mislead other people based on your opinions.
I'm just trying to explain something with some simple facts so people don't get hurt, whether you are driving or trying to BBQ inside your house (which I don't recommend!).
Most of the time I like listening to your opinions and they're usually good ones, but in my professional opinion I strongly disagree with your this time. ;-)
Wow, are you having a bad day? Hope it gets better!
I just found the bit about cigarettes to be quite silly. I don't think anything less of you personally of course, and I hope you feel the same, but I thought your diatribe against CO was irrelevant in the context of one person's complain about a stinky Subaru.
~c ps, no I do not smoke. but yes I have been around high CO emissions a lot and am no worse for it.
I took a digital thermometer today and ran a little experiment. Today was a cool automn day up here and I needed to run an errand in town, so it was perfect for my little experiment.
The outside temperature was 9C (48.2F). I started the car and set the ACC to 22C (71.6F). After a few minutes of driving, once the engine was warmed up, as expected the ACC went to full heat for several minutes. It kept full heat on until it reached 26.5C (79.7F) at which point it started to gradually slow the fan down and reduce the heat. The inside temperature still increased a bit and peaked at 27C (80.6F).
The temperature then gradually came down and after about 6-7 minutes it settled at around 23.5C (74.3F). Note that is still 1.5C above the setting. Since I was wearing a jacket, this was a little too warm so I turned the dial down to 20C (68F). The ACC immediately switched to the face vents and turned the A/C on. So now I was getting some uncomfortably cold air blown straight in my face. The temperature dropped to 19.2C (66.5F) before the A/C turned off and the temperature slowly settled back up to 20.5C (69F). But it was still blowing air in my face, something I don't like or need this time of year, so I manually switched the mode back to feet and windshield.
What did I expect? Fast heating to about 20-21C, then gradual slow down until the temp settles at the requested 22C, and then stays there without further fiddling. If I have to fiddle with it, then what is the point of having ACC?
Comments
Looks are important to me too, and I just don't care for the cladding, white letter tires, and the other SUV-style accoutrements on the Outback. But to each his own. Outback's a great car..just not my style.
Thanks!
------------------------------------------------------
"here are your instructions, this works, even though it does sound hokey.
1) Turn key to on position-don't start.
2) After first set of chimes click seat belt in and out 20 times within 30 seconds.
3) Turn off key.
4) (IGNORE THIS STEP!!!) [Repeat 1, 2, 3 again]
5) Turn key off and re-start
To clarify:
turn on car = on but not started
beeping starts = first set of beeps when you turn on the car "
Here are the latest Outback and Legacy reviews links. Please post any updates, additions or corrections you'd like to see. Geesh...this is becoming an encyclopedia!
Enjoy! -KarenM-
http://members.cox.net/kamartin/2005outbackreviews.html
I've found the ability to get through snow sometimes depends more on the type of snow (wet vs. powder) than a few extra inches of clearance.
Here's a great page that summarizes the differences:
http://www.cars101.com/subaru_new.html#legacy-outback
Ken
As always, great job with the the summary!
Ken
I absolutely love my new Outback XT Limited 5MT and would buy it again without question. Does that mean I think it is perfect? Not by any means. But I do think it provides incredible performance, value, and capabilities. I have been nit picking the car myself on this forum, but generally it was just that, picking nits!
Lack of lights on the sunroof buttons? Who cares. Cheap stereo? Yeah it is not exactly premium but it is better than average, especially with CDs. I do find the FM radio a bit lacking. Lack of steering mounted radio controls? A small annoyance for sure, but I LOVE that Momo steering wheel and I wouldn't trade it for anything else. Narrow seats? I'm a big guy and I do find them a tad narrow, but they are certainly better than average and better than anything in this price class. Not Volvo seats for sure, but adequate.
Carpet hooks breaking? Yeah, broke off the first time I used the car, very stupid system. But hey, the carpets are staying put, so no big deal. Turbo lag? Well, it is a turbo, but lag is not noticable in most circumstances, and I'd much rather have that huge torque curve than no turbo. I think most people are actually bothered by the "auto tranny" lag; turbo lag is just a fraction of a second.
Automatic Climate Control? yeah, this one is bothersome. It is nearly useless and I found myself just not bothering with it anymore and doing my own climate controlling. I also wish it had a bigger gas tank and memory settings on the seats.
But look at it this way: you get significantly better performance than a BMW 330i for less than the price of a bare bones 325, and you get a lot more equipment, better reliability and AWD at that price too.
This criticizing is what Subaru gets for nibbling at the big boy's heels, so they do have a few small lessons to learn to survive those direct comparisons, but if you factor in the price, it is really no contest. The car provides smiles and enjoyment in spades.
I find it hard to believe that Subaru's obviously very talented engineers are not capable of producing a decent ACC system. This is a disgrace on Subaru and the single biggest annoyance I have with my otherwise brilliant Outback XT. It should be renamed RCG for Random Climate Generator.
How about starting a petition and demanding that Subaru recall these units and provide a fix for the ACC? Afterall, when I bought this car I did expect an ACC and I paid for one. The fact that this ACC system is really worse than having none at all could be construed as false advertising.
I think we should all start writing to Subaru right now and complain about this useless ACC.
Peace.
So if you set your temp at say 72, it will actually cool (or heat) several degrees beyond that before slowing down. It will sometimes go the other way too and oscillate like that. The results being that it is really never at 72 degrees. So I find myself having to fiddle with the temperature knob because I get way too hot (or cold) before it settles down. But sometimes, just moving the knob 1 or 2 degrees will cause a sudden blast of cold (or hot) air when it is neither needed nor wanted. I also often have to switch to manual because it is blasting cold air in my face when I don't need it.
It often gets fooled by sunshine and will blast cold air when the inside tmeperature doesn't demand it. It uses the A/C way more than needed: when the outside air is several degrees lower than the inside air, it should just use fresh air to cool things off, with out using A/C.
The other problem is that there is no temperature sensor on the passenger side, so it can't really control the temp on the passenger side, it seems to only output a "temperature difference" with the driver's side, which is often not right, since if the sun is on one side or the other, the cooling (or heating) requirements can be vastly different.
We rented a Volvo XC-70 last summer and we were able to set the tmeperatures once and forget about it, and we were neve uncomfortable because of excessive cold or hot air when it is not needed.
As it is on my Subie, it's a lot easier and more comfortable to just leave it in manual and make it do what I want. But even that can be a challenge, as simply pressing one button causes other settings to be set for you automatically.
Someone on another forum nicknamed his ACC "HAL", after the out of control computer in 2001 Space Oddissey who decided to take things into his own hands, because he "knew what was best for the mission".
Someone here jokingly said that the problem was really with the owner, and that once the ACC had beated the owner into submission, things worked just fine.
I suspect that those who think it works fine live in hot climates where you can never get too much cold air. But here in more temperate climes, where it needs to produce only moderate cooling or heating (for now, soon it will get VERY cold), it overdoes it and takes way too long to settle down.
It's also nice to see that a number of folks have either bought a 2nd Suburu or recently traded up, makes me feel a bit better. Trading in my 02 will represent the first time that I haven't driven my car into the ground...
Oh, and dc_driver, I'm in the exact same boat you are except I'm in NYC. I'm starting to lean Legacy Wagon ...
Jil
Shop around for other FM modulation units, but keep in mind this one fits right into the sunglass compartment. If you want yours on the dash, or elsewhere, the unit's form is a factor.
See http://www.theharrowgroup.com/articles/20040329/20040329.htm#_Toc- 67729177 and scroll down to "Your Car May NOT Be Your Friend!"
But this is not my biggest complaint; my biggest complaint is toxic fumes coming in from the outside when the car is stopped.
BTW, I live in New England, western Mass., near the VT. border...not exactly a 'hot clime'.
I like the HAL moniker. Ver funny!
Peace.
Honestly, I've yet to find any climate control system on a car that requires absolutely no fine tuning. Every system I know of uses just a few measurement points to try and estimate what's comfortable for the driver. It may also be that I don't expect an auto climate control to read my mind, similar to an automatic transmission.
sduford -- I wonder if maybe there's something wrong with either the cabin temperature thermocouple or the solar sensor on your vehicle. It's hard to believe we're talking about the same system!
In addition to the dealer checking those out, you may also want to look into the fix used by some Forester XT owners. One fellow added a very tiny fan to draw cabin air directly over the thermocouple. I don't recall where the modification was posted, however.
Ken
My recommendation - a new Outback is easily a better choice than a used allroad.
The article states that if the FBI could listen in without disabling the emergency response capabilities of the system, the court wouldn't have an issue with it.
Thanks for the info!! I'm jealous of all you new Outback/Legacy owners!!
Let me start off by saying "Been there, done that". My fiancee and I were contemplating the same thing; a C.P.O'ed Allroad looked like the perfect car for us. I guess the "mistake" I made was to spend some time researching Audi's reliability, cost of ownership, replacement parts and the general opinion of people who've owned these cars. Yikes! So much for that idea...
Just my $.02, but don't waste your time on an Audi Allroad...solid AWD system, but not-so-solid motor (I believe the 2.7T is 'history') and lots of neat gimmicks (like air suspension) which break and cost jillions to fix. Enter Subaru. Kinda' looks like a "poor man's Allroad" if you ask me, but that was one of the things which drew us to the 2005 OB. The performance, versatility and reliability was the deal-maker for us. Besides, an '01 Allroad was going for more than I paid for my '05 OBXT Limited!
Hope that helps knock you off the fence!
Rgds,
Tim
'05 OBXTL 5MT
Compared to the RE92's and RE070's I had previously, I feel these are much better tires for the types of driving I do (mostly highway).
Brian
The lack of lights on some buttons doesn't bother me at all, they are all vey easy to find anyway, so it is a very minor annoyance at worst. As for the lack of memory on the seat or VDC, didn't you know that before you bought the car??? Yes, I would like to have both of those options on mine, and would have been willing to pay for them. But when I decided to buy the Outback XT I was willing to live without them. If you're not, then you obviously shouldn't have bought the car in the first place!!
The TSX is more comparable to the Legacy GT than the TL. The TL is not as sporty and more of a luxury cruiser. I have tried a TL myself and thought it was a very very nice car, certainly a notch above the Subaru in terms of comfort and luxury. However, you have to be willing to live with wicked torque steer and no AWD. I personally would much rather have AWD and no VDC or memory seats then the other way around!
I hope they find a fix for you, I agree, it not only shouldn't happen but is potentially dangerous (Carbon monoxide binds your blood much more effectively than oxygen- so it stays with you a long time!). If it makes you drowsy it's a potential liability for Subaru.
I would think your dealer could at least find a leak somewhere- even small leaks in the exhaust are quite loud.
tom
Karl
I'm wondering if there is some leak either in the the exhaust or the turbo up/down pipe. Can you smell the exhaust fumes by the engine bay if you have someone rev the engine while in neutral?
The complaints I've heard about people getting warm air through their vents have mainly been from people not realizing that the HVAC unit, unless turned down to 65, will add some heat into the fresh air flow. Certainly not to the note of 101 degrees, however!
Ken
A new Subaru puts out nowhere near that level of emissions. And besides, you have to be in fully enclosed air for some time for carbon monoxide to be dangerous. It doesn't happen just idling in the street, no matter what you smell.
--Anyway enough about that. On this problem car, is the engine running OK? Good gas mileage, idles normally, strong acceleration, smooth operation?
~Colin
Carbon monoxide can cause cardiac depression to the point of causing heart attacks. Also considered bad. There are further disturbances on a biochemical level which I won't go into.
Please don't diminish the dangers of Carbon Monoxide. Will the CO coming out of your car kill you if you're young and healthy?- probably not. Is it unhealthy?- yes. Can small amounts make you sleepy and nauseous?- yes. Is this bad while driving?- yes. Are there neurologic deficits associated with chronic CO poisoning?- probably, there's some evidence to suggest this, but we're still finding out.
While we shouldn't be alarmist, we shouldn't take it casually either. CO exposure is a serious problem not to be taken lightly. Just because exhaust fumes were ok in the past doesn't mean it's ok today in a modern automobile, and I certainly wouldn't accept it in a car that I drive my children or parents around in.
Sorry for the long post.
Uh, I still really like my LGT Ltd. It really is fun to drive without being punishing. It's almost 2 cars (Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde), one a quiet, comfortable commuter, but it also can really tear up some road once you get the revs up!
tom, M.D.
I just ordered a new GT and decided to add the arm rest extension to it, but my dealer does not have any info on the item. They checked with parts but did not come up with anything.
Anyone have any info on this item and its availibility?
Thanks
Don
Don
you *won't* die from carbon monoxide poisoning from any vehicle in the open air. have you ever been trackside at a motorsport event? nascar or NHRA, it doesn't matter, the air quality is AWFUL and yet strangely no one dies. headaches and annoyance, perhaps so.
also, did you notice that I was attempting to discern the nature of the vehicle's problem? I assumed that the problem was a severe annoyance, but still heartily refute that it is a *danger*.
~c
I just ordered a new GT and decided to add the arm rest extension to it, but my dealer does not have any info on the item. They checked with parts but did not come up with anything.
Anyone have any info on this item and its availibility?
Thanks
Don
Ken
No, you won't die of CO poisoning at a Nascar event. But prolonged and frequent exposure to CO is probably not a good thing, whether enclosed inside your car or your home. That's all I was trying to explain. I'm sorry if you didn't understand it, but everything I quoted was medical science, not religion. If you have some scientific evidence to the contrary other than your own observations, I'd love to hear it. If not, please don't mislead other people based on your opinions.
I'm just trying to explain something with some simple facts so people don't get hurt, whether you are driving or trying to BBQ inside your house (which I don't recommend!).
Most of the time I like listening to your opinions and they're usually good ones, but in my professional opinion I strongly disagree with your this time. ;-)
Wow, are you having a bad day? Hope it gets better!
tom ;-)
~c
ps, no I do not smoke. but yes I have been around high CO emissions a lot and am no worse for it.
The outside temperature was 9C (48.2F). I started the car and set the ACC to 22C (71.6F). After a few minutes of driving, once the engine was warmed up, as expected the ACC went to full heat for several minutes. It kept full heat on until it reached 26.5C (79.7F) at which point it started to gradually slow the fan down and reduce the heat. The inside temperature still increased a bit and peaked at 27C (80.6F).
The temperature then gradually came down and after about 6-7 minutes it settled at around 23.5C (74.3F). Note that is still 1.5C above the setting. Since I was wearing a jacket, this was a little too warm so I turned the dial down to 20C (68F). The ACC immediately switched to the face vents and turned the A/C on. So now I was getting some uncomfortably cold air blown straight in my face. The temperature dropped to 19.2C (66.5F) before the A/C turned off and the temperature slowly settled back up to 20.5C (69F). But it was still blowing air in my face, something I don't like or need this time of year, so I manually switched the mode back to feet and windshield.
What did I expect? Fast heating to about 20-21C, then gradual slow down until the temp settles at the requested 22C, and then stays there without further fiddling. If I have to fiddle with it, then what is the point of having ACC?