Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

rob_m

What is an 'R' sedan?

dcm61

'R' sedan refers to the Outback 3.0R (H6) sedan. The one and only Outback sedan for '05.

DaveM

paisan

As I noted: to gearheads, torque is important. To the vast majority of the buying public, torque means squat. People would cross shop an AWD TSX with an AWD Legacy GT. They are in the same price area, have the same EPA classification, and similar features.

They may not care about torque #s however americans judge it by off-the-line which is ALL TORQUE. If you have a TSX that is slow off the line due to AWD and no torque.... Americans won't buy it cause it's gonna be slow as ballz.

-mike

krzyss

Ford Taurus (I know poor car)
VW Passat

are available as wagons.

Krzys

kyfdx

The TSX was a cheap way for Acura to get another car in the line-up.. It is the Euro-Accord.. You won't see it with AWD, unless they start offering that in the Accord for the Japanese and Euro market.

Also, adding AWD would just push it up closer to the TL price.

I'm betting you won't see AWD in this generation TL, either.. Honda will sell the cars for five years or so, then introduce another model. If they do it, it will be much cheaper to design it into an all new model.. But, I don't think they see their future in AWD.. It was put into the RL to differentiate it from the more expensive competitors. It probably won't filter down the line-up.

regards,
kyfdx

c_hunter

Interestingly, Ford dropped the wagon in the Taurus' overlap successor (the Five Hundred). Instead of having a Five Hundred wagon, they have the Freestyle "crossover" SUV.

Craig

robr2

They may not care about torque #s however americans judge it by off-the-line which is ALL TORQUE. If you have a TSX that is slow off the line due to AWD and no torque.... Americans won't buy it cause it's gonna be slow as ballz.

I'd have to say that most American drivers could not tell the difference between 6 seconds and 7 seconds between stoplights. And whose to say that the TSX engine couldn't be engineered to provide more torque. Honda did it for the S2000 in year 3.

robr2

The TSX was a cheap way for Acura to get another car in the line-up.. It is the Euro-Accord..

That's right it was and a successful decision at that. The goal was sales of 15K and they sold almost double that IIRC. Lots of manufacturers do that.

Also, adding AWD would just push it up closer to the TL price.

The 04 TSX starts at $26,500 - let's bump to $27K for the 05. The 05 TL starts at just under $33K. Do you think the addition of AWD would add $6K?

But, I don't think they see their future in AWD.

Didn't someone here just post a link this week to Acura's announcement of going AWD?

Again, I'm just pointing out the Acura could be an alternative to the GT and/or GT Ltd. Honda is quite capable of engineering an AWD with the proper power to move it.

kyfdx

They didn't get more torque out of the S2000.. they put a bigger engine in it. I'm guessing that the 2.4 liter 4-cyl that Honda uses in the TSX is about as big as they want to go with a four. To go with AWD and not be too slow for that market, I think they would need to turbocharge or go to a V-6. Not sure if they offer a V-6 in Europe, but that sounds like a lot of expensive re-engineering for a current model.

The TSX is a great car.. It was a smart move by Honda.. not arguing any of that..

The TL and TSX are almost exactly $6K apart in '04 price ($33,195 vs. $27,045).. Price differentiation is important.. Just from looking at automakers that have AWD optional, it would add around $2K or more to the price of the TSX... Doesn't meant they can't do it.. Just makes it unlikely..

They make a wagon in Europe that with a bigger engine and AWD would be a great alternative to the Subaru.. I just don't see it happening with the current model..

I don't see them doing it with the current TL either... '05s are out now.. They'll probably have an all new model in '08.

There might be something from Honda about AWD in the TL or TSX, but I haven't seen it.. Maybe someone can re-post?

regards,
kyfdx

robr2

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101000

is the link for AWD and Acura.

You never know with the TL. Perhaps they designed in the ability to add AWD based on the RL design priorities. Afterall they are only one year apart and engineers do talk to each other.

Don't forget that the main criticism everyone has against Acura/Honda is the lack of RWD. Honda has publicly said that RWD is not for them - but they didn't say anything about AWD!!

Anything we do here any ways is speculation. How about a Subaru Outblazer?

kyfdx

Sounds kind of non-committal.. But, without firm plans at this time, I speculate (naturally), that you won't see it for awhile..

I think it is smart for them to differentiate their offerings from Honda, though.. Lexus and Infiniti are trying hard to do that, and I think it helps their marketing image.

regards,
kyfdx

robr2

But isn't Honda always sort of non-commitral. The 05 Odyssey really didn't exist except on internet boards!!

kyfdx

Yeah.. all the talk, then the result was kind of underwhelming.. I fail to see any big changes there.. at least not compared to what Toyota and Nissan did with their new vans.. Of course, they had much farther to go..

Back on topic.. Why doesn't Subaru come out with an AWD minivan?

once_for_all

bit off topic, but they are coming out with their new AWD pickup (Sport Utility Vehicle)called the Rockline (name as yet not finalized) in May of '05.

It has a 5,000 lb towing, so you can bet there is significant power transfer to the rear axle. In other words, it probably isn't a wheel slip only rear drive product.

Note, it is on the Pilot chassis, so expect similar offerings in that lineup.

John

rsholland

It may employ of version of the AWD now found on the Acura RL, while full-time AWD, has a RWD power bias by default. Hope they add a low-range feature to the pickup version.

Bob

locke2c

we're like waaaay OT, but I do think it will be tricky to put a powerful V6 in the TSX without cannibalizing TL sales.

~c

rsholland

Well that would have to get more powerful too, as would the new RL.

Bob

rwoods

I thought this was a Subaru Outback message board. Seems Acura has crept in.

I am picking up my new 05 Outback XT Ltd Wagon, white with taupe interior, subwoofer and compass tomorrow morning. Nothig beats the thrill of a new car. Wish me luck.

Bob

kens

Jay,

Are you using the middle shoulder belt to secure the seat or a latch system?

I'm not to the point yet of booster seats, but I did notice that the manual recommends the left or rightmost positions for car seats before the middle.

Ken

luck11

Ken,

Yes, using the middle shoulder belt for his booster seat, which means each time he gets in and out, I have to buckle/unbuckle the belt. I guess it wouldn't be that big a deal for a baby seat if you only have to buckle/unbuckle every once and a while (ie seats that have their own 3-point harness etc), but my son has out-grown the booster seat harness. It is a battle to buckle
everytime he gets in the seat...it is truly frustrating!

I picked up on the recommendations in the manual, but the fact of the matter is that a child is safer in the middle seating position (because a child is further from either side door in case of a colision involving the side of the vehicle). Police/fire recommend middle seating position when carrying only one child. Obviously, where a family includes two children, then one has no choice but to use the right and leftmost positions. The fact that the manual suggests the left and right positions is almost an admission by Subaru that they designed the rear seat with safety NOT in mind, or their simply so clued out not to understand the safest seating position for a child. Either way, unacceptable in my opinion.

I guess I feel burned because safety was the primary reason why I switched to Subaru almost 5 years ago and repurchased another less than a month ago. I admit though, partly my fault for not being more diligent in checking the fit of the booster seat as I did before I bought my 2000 Outback.

Cheers,
Jay

05gtwagon

While I did not like the car, my 2001 Audi A6 had a real set and forget ACC. My 1992 NSX had a decent one as well.

michael2

Not to debate this to an extreme,but my values are based upon 40 years as an aircraft structures designer, where sweating the details is task one.
First the myth about the superiority and luxury of european cars was dispatced upon the introduction of Lexus and Infiniti. I doubt any european car can match either brand for quality,reliability or luxury. Secondly Volvo, Bms 3 series and the a4, are hardly what i call luxry automobiles, you might as well throw in the passat if you think they are. Japan, has produced some of the most relibile, competitive and in many cases superior cars in the world. I doubt, no I know that volvo,bmw and audi can't match the reliability and quality surveys of the Lexus or Infiniti, and definitely know they can't match the subaru in reliability, as i have friends who own these european cars, and I hear their complaints. As for seats,I guess that's a personal prejudice, as i did drive all three of these cars, had a lease ready to go on the s60,and find the seats in the gt great. my scorecard, was getting the most reliable,quality built awd car at the most reasonable price, and subaru fits this to a tee.If I want a luxury awd car, I'll opt for the G35x,the Acura RL, or the new Lexus GS series which will have AWD , at least I'll know the car will spend the majority of its time on the road, and in not the dealers service bay.

jim1969

Which will be out next fall is rumored to have V-6 putting out 245hp with AWD. There's competition. I'm sure it will have memory seats, telescopic steering wheel, HID's, ACC that works well and a nav option. I love my GT but the IS 300 is nice looking IMHO and with the above mentioned upgrades would be awsome!

lumbar

I agree but at what price? It's not that hard to include those items if you are not, as Subaru apparently is, trying to hit a particular price point.

luck11

Hi folks. Been a while since we've heard from owners that were experiencing stuttering with their O5s. I am still experiencing slight stuttering upon acceleration in my 05 OB XTL 5MT, but have not hit the break-in point yet.

Would you folks that were experiencing this problem please update us on where things stand (ie. if the prob has subsided or not) and how many miles on your vehicle?

Thanks.
Jay

locke2c

Jay-- using premium fuel?

~c

ryanl1

Michael2,
Totally agree with your post.

Sduford,
Remember why most of us bought the GT for the awd,power and performance and a decent interior.
Remember when you were cross shopping all other awd competitors and decided they were priced too high or weren't reliable enough.
Your points about the ACC are valid but it's low on the priority list of most buyers.

luck11

Yep, premium only. Car has only been to the pumps twice since I picked it up new, plus the fill up by the dealer for delivery. Dealer confirmed they put in premium. Regardless, by now the fuel the dealer pumped is gone and car is running on premium that I have pumped (car has hesited slightly(between 2k - 3.5k rpm) since day 1.

Some people posted that the hesitation smoothed out and was not noticeable after about 2000 miles. Just wondering if any others are still experiencing this while, as you point out, using premium fuel.

locke2c

heavy or light throttle from 2k to 3.5k rpm?

or both?

~Colin

luck11

Hmmm...If I remember correctly, its both...more noticeable under heavy throttle, less noticeable under light throttle. I'll have to pay a bit more attention next few times I'm in the vehicle.

Cheers,
Jay.

beanboy

After how long?

Garnet red Legacy GT wagon 5MT is on the way. Excellent.

mjc440

Thanks for the AWD Acura link.

I believe the TL will get AWD before the TSX because the AWD system fits 3.0 liters (V6) or more. It would be easier to the fit the TL with AWD over reconfiguring the TSX for the 3.0 V6.

Legacy GT Limiteds are approx $31-32K; the TL is about $33K, so if the AWD adds about $2K to the price, then we're only talking about a difference of $3-$4K. Not too bad.

I still stick to my prediction that 2007 TLs will have AWD.

bruce3

I have a Legacy GT 5MT with 3800 miles in 3 months and have noticed the stuttering. Although many people say premium gas is all the same I never noticed any stutter when I use 76. It may be the oxygenated fuel additives that each brand uses here in California, 76 was the first brand to stop using MTBE. I did get some ARCO a few times when 76 wasn't convinient and the stutter is still there, but isn't as pronounced. Also the idle is smoother with 76. Can't explain it and don't think I am imagining it. About the only change one can make on a performance engine like this is to change the spark plugs or make sure the gap is correct, everything is pretty much controlled by the engine computer.

dmagoon

At 7400 miles the problem is still there. I've used only premium Citgo, Mobil, Exxon. Still pursuing with dealer service manager (who was able to recreate the problem) who is pursuing with SOA. No updates yet from either. Car's in for 7500 service tomorrow AM, so will get with the service mamager then and see where we stand.

c_hunter

After how long?

Garnet red Legacy GT wagon 5MT is on the way. Excellent.

Awesome! Lets see some pics when it arrives.

Craig

finked

because we're not allowed to link to other forums, all i can do is provide you with a quote from another forum. i hope it helps.

"I talked to the local Subaru master tech about this [stuttering] last week and he says that the new Subarus (all of the 04 and newer Turbo models) have a 1500 mile ECU "learn" cycle before they are finally "burnt in" (my terms). This is the guy that the other regional techs and reps turn to for their information so he's got this stuff down. The reason it's hiccuping is that the ECU has detected something "not right" about the timing/air/fuel mixture at that acceleration point and is quickly readjusting everything to protect the engine in anticipation of additional inputs, e.g., warm-up, throttle, speed, etc.

Give it some time to break in but also document the "when" and under what "conditions", e.g., cold, slightly warm, hot engine, off-idle, stop and go, cruising, WOT, etc - just make a log. Then, when you take it to the dealer, point out the when/conditions under which [the stuttering has] occurred and offer to demo it for the service writer/technician if you don't think that they can replicate it. You know your car's operating charateristics better than anyone else so don't let it continue if it's not abating/stopping. He indicated that an ECU reset is sometimes all it needs but in some cases a complete reflash will be required. Also, if you don't get it resolved to your satisfaction, give 1-800-Subaru3 a call and open a case file for that particular issue."

63corvette

I have a new (04) Outback. It is only the base 2.5L engine (manual 5 spd) but I am very unhappy with the "Non-liniarity" of the throttle input. It has big holes (hesitates) in the power delivery. It is more noticable on hard throttle than gradual input, but very noticable on both, and moreso on hard throttle. In my opinion, it is a fuel mapping problem. Corvette Z06 forums and other hot rod links all have "LS-1 edit" and other "tuner tricks" to correct things like this, but since this is an "economy car" there doesn't seem to be the interest in correcting this, and so I guess we'll just have to put up withit.
Comment?
GArrett Waddell

subiedog

In case this is of interest . . . I have an '05 Outback LLBean. My only complaint is the seats. The foam sides are rock hard, and the angle is steap. On short trips, no problem. But long ones leave me seriously uncomfortable. Something in the seat somehow impinges on some nerves. I figured I was stuck, but when I mentioned it to my saleman (we were talking about adding a hitch), he seemed to know exactly what I was troubled by. He said: "Don't worry. We can fix that" and proceeded to explain that if there was a problem with the seat, they would make it right. I said how. He said by changing the foam and making other adjustments through a specialty shop auto upholstery shop, explaining that the leather can be pulled off for the "innerds" to be adjusted. I said: How much will that cost? He said: Nothing. If the seat's not right, it's a Subaru issue. They'll cover it.

So I'm waiting to see how it all works out. This began as the best car buying experience I've had. It may end up being the best car warranty experience I've had. Meanwhile, I got the distinct impression that the dealership had dealt before with concerns about the seats in the 05 OB and knew exactly what to do to fix it. Time will tell.

In case that helps . . .

dcm61

Have you talked to the dealer regarding the hesitation? I have an '03 OBW A/T (manuf. date = 6/02) and it would hestiate after a warm start. I took it to the dealer and they sent the computer out to be reprogrammed. Seems to run fine now. This may not fix your particular problem but it might be worth a try.

DaveM

locke2c

wow that's quite a dealer, subiedog!

as far as pulling off the coverings-- absolutely true, it's not that difficult. but to hand-modify the foam padding at no charge to you, this is really a dealer going above and beyond. great stuff.

~c

ateixeira

Sorry I've been absent, had a crazy couple of weeks.

Acura's ticket to true credibility among enthusiasts (who generally prefer RWD) is AWD. If the RL is popular, we'll surely see it spread.

Larry: I guess I'm lucky but besides a minor recall my Forester has not seen the dealer in 6+ years. So to answer your question, I'd still pick the better car over the car with the better dealer network.

But we are spoiled, we have both in DC. There are 7 Subaru dealers close to me to choose from.

Sorry to rehash an old topic, but back to the whole AWD vs. S/C argument, I really think that if you have all 4 wheels spinning on an AWD car, that is intentional, i.e. you are having fun.

I still would like S/C but give me an off switch so I can turn off the electronic nannies, and I mean OFF, not "higher treshold".

Congrats to the new buyers, be sure to join the Subaru Crew threads also.

-juice

needanewcar2

We are very close to purchasing an '05 Outback VDC model. One nagging concern- do you think this car is structurally as safe as a Volvo? Time magazine Aug 04 said the Volvo V50 has a safety cage for extra crash protection. Is the Outback as safe?

zundapp

We have a 2005 Legacy and I understand your difficulties with the seat. This is our fifth new Legacy in the past 14 years and it will be our last. The seat bolsters feel as if they are made of wood and prolonged contact with them is most uncomfortable. Good luck with your modifications. You are fortunate to have an understanding dealer.

Dave Holley

luck11

OK, paid a bit more attention to conditions of stuttering on my 05 OB XTL 5MT. Seems stuttering starts just before 2500 rpm and peeters off around 3000 rpm. It happens when the engine is cold (ie within the first couple of minutes after starting), and when it has been driven for 5-10 minutes (normal op temp). It is much more noticeable (ie. you can feel the car jerk more) under heavier acceleration (I don't mean gunning it...just a smooth accel, as you would when passing someone on a four lane highway), than a light gradual acceleration. In fact, with light acceleration, sometimes you can barely notice it. I don't drive far to and from work, so I have not tested when the car is really hot. But if memory serves, still noticed it when the vehicle was good and warm (ie after 20 minutes of driving). This is all I have for now.

I suppose gas could be an issue, but having bought from the biggest retailers up here, I don't know where I would get any better grade gas!

BTW, i noticed this accel stuttering on the O5 GTs that I test drove months back.

Cheers,
Jay.

c_hunter

Almost all new cars have a safety cage of some sort (including the Outback). I know the Outback is pretty safe, but not sure how it compares to the Volvo. Volvos have a reputation for being pretty tough, but I assume that has been diluted now that they are sharing common platforms with Ford.

The Outback did get the highest possible crash ratings in Australia and the US (5 stars ib NHSTA tests) if that means anything. Do a little research, look at the facts for yourself, and you should be able to find the scores for both cars to compare.

Craig

stantont

I'm torn between getting a Legacy ST wagon and GT wagon. Decided on a MT in either case. The puzzle is the MPG difference: the normal engine is EPA rated 23/30 mpg city/hwy, while the GT is rated 20/25. I know the hp difference is huge, but the base engine and trans is the same (other than slight gearing differences), so why should adding a turbo increase fuel consumption so much if you drive the same? If I drive gently most of the time and only stomp on it on rare occasion, shouldn't I get approximately the same fuel consumption with either?

I know there are several of you out there who now have a few miles on your new Legacies. Would you mind posting your highway MPG and which engine you have? I don't want to compare city mpg because it is so dependent on local traffic and road conditions.

I guess the cleanest comparo would be: GT or ST, which trans, how many miles on vehicle and trip mpg at what cruising speed.

How about it, folks? Would be Subie-owners want to know - or at least this one does. ;-)

tsy

Like Craig said, the Legacy has a safety cage also and had the highest rating ever of any car in Australia's crash tests.

In the IIHS crash tests the legacy (OB has not been tested, neither was the wagon) did very well in the offset frontal test, but only marginal in the side impact test.
The S40 likewise did well in the frontal and a little better (acceptable) in the side impact test.

In the NHTSA crash test, the OB was 5 stars in every category(frontal and side), while the S40 (v40 has not been tested) was 5 stars in every category except driver front impact, in which it got 4 stars.

So which is safer? Depends on what kind of accident you hopefully don't get into! Either car will be quite safe if it comes down to it, but ultimately it depends on how lucky you are.

Now remember, this is all passive safety. The OB has AWD so unless you buy the V40 with AWD, the OB will have the advantage when it comes to active safety.

Finally, remember the laws of physics. The bigger you are, the less of the impact you will absorb. Hence, if you collide with a semi truck, it probably doesn't matter what you drive. If you collide with a full sized SUV, you are at a definite disadvantage (unless you can avoid them!).

Good luck on choosing. My best advice is drive carefully and defensively! You are the most important safety feature of your car! ;-)

tom

tsy

Stanton, just so we understand each other, I think you mean the base legacy, which is the 2.5i, vs the GT, which is a 2.5 intercooled turbo.

The turbo will cause you to burn more fuel (also more expensive fuel, it needs premium gas) which of course produces more power. Significantly more power, which is why it uses significantly more fuel. ;-) But if you compare the 2.5 T to 6 cylinder engines which make the same kind of hp/torque, it's about the same. There's no such thing as a free lunch!

All this being said, my GT ltd sedan 5MT cruising on the freeway gets about 26-27 mpg, depending on how fast I'm cruising (60-80mph)

It's funny you ask this question. I've tried on this tank of gas to see what kind of mileage I'd get if I drove like a granny. My computer is reading about 21-22, which is usually off by 1 mpg. So figure you could probably do this if driven really conservatively (I drive up and down a lot of hills, so my mileage is usually much worse than EPA figures).

I think for most people in average daily driving the 2.5i is more than adequate. The GT is more fun, the acceleration is quite fast and somewhat intoxicating ;-), but you pay for it at the pump!

Hope this helps.

tom

needanewcar2

thank you Tom and Craig. Good advice and sage words.

Now, do either of you have the experience with the seats that we have been reading here?
It seems horrific. Especially since we want the car for long road trips.

Ro

c_hunter

I sat in the driver's seat of my OB XT for about 4 hours straight a couple weeks ago when we went on vacation. I don't have any complaints. The seats are definitely better than my previous Outback (02 LL Bean) but I still think the seats in my 03 WRX were the best ever (sadly, they replaced those in 04 and later WRX models, with wider and less supportive seats). Anyway, I know what it's like to have uncomfortable seats on a long trip, and I definitely don't have those problems with the seats in my OB XT.

The Legacy GT and the Outback XT share the same exact seats. Not necessarily so for other models, so my comments may only apply to the Legacy GT and Outback XT.

Craig