Lexus GS 300/GS 430

alpha01

"The First Thing: Alpha is right (for once)!"

 

Ouch!

 
What have I been wrong about?

 

~alpha

bartalk2

Playing devil's advocate. The M-35 and RL have bigger engines, but their gas mileage is poor: epa 18/24 or 26. If the GS300, with its smaller engine and 6-speed transmission, has significantly better mileage, at $2+/gallon, perhaps to many people it's worth .5-1 second lag to 60mph.

 

By the way, the new Avalon 3.5L, at 3,600 pounds, has an epa rating of 22/31!

00boxsters

I had considered the three engine range German line up but did not think it was Lexus' plan because of their home market intro begining with the 3.5L.

lexusguy

The other possibility is that the GS350 will only be sold here in the states as GS450h. Lexus has never said the US will in fact get a regular GS350.

callmedrfill

Didn't want you to get all sensitive, I was just playing.

 

  Maybe the 450h will have the power of a V8 and the economy of a 4-cyl?

 

  Wouldn't that make the V8 obsolete?

 

   

  DrFill

alpha01

Dude, I was just joshin with ya

 

:P

 

~alpha

lexusguy

The GS450h is supposed to have like 450hp some horsepower I think. I really dont know what the plan is. Perhaps the GS will stop offering a V8 when the hybrid gets here? Perhaps it will be GS300 or GS450h? The V8 has never sold in any numbers anyway.

oac

Although as alpha and DrFill puts it makes it ring true, I am still not buying it. Can 40hp differentiate these two sufficiently ? Price point will be KEY. If priced wrongly, it'll be hard to sell the 3.0L trim in any great number. The GS350 will make so much sense seing that most of the competition is already putting down 250-280hp anyway (TL, M35, 530, G35x).

boomsama

I don't think the 3.0L will be in the same market with the 3.5L V6. Infact, I reckon that the new 2.5L engine appearing in the next IS250 will act as the GS' base model. This engine is already in use in the current Toyota Crown Athelete. The 2.5L engine has 158kw (212hp) and 260Nm (192lb/ft) of torque. This would compete with the likes of the BMW 525i and the E240. Secondly, with rumours of the GS350GT (300hp 3.5L V6 + 170hp electric motor to create 470hp), I don't think that the GS460h will have an output of 460hp, but would have something a bit lower. Lexus still need room for their M dividsion/AMG competitor to stretch their legs. So finally, what I'm saying is that there would be 3 engine grades like the germans, the GS250, GS350 and the GS460h. Finally there would be a top of the range M/AMG competitor.

callmedrfill

 

 

  Lexus CANNOT MATCH BMW offerings, they must show a clear advantage because BMW holds the market (with Benz). They must underprice AND outperform/coddle to remove this deathgrip on the market.

 

  The last GS was AS GOOD AS the 5-series, and cheaper, and was still easily beaten after a good two year run!

 

  If Lexus puts out the 3.0 with the GS, that engine will stasy in the lineup, come hell or highwater, as to not devalue the model and hurt owners. This is a new engine tech that they want in the line, it will not fad-out.

 

  I can't see them going down to 210HP, when a ES has 225HP.

 

  I can see them dropping the eight down the line.

 

  DrFill

boomsama

As Lexus is becoming a highly regarded manufacturer, along the likes of BMW and MB, I think that a GS250 would sell as many people still buy cars for the brands. There are lots of people who are bored of BMW and MB as they are too "mainstream" and seek something else.

mariner7

Avalon 3.5 makes 280, GS300/430 make 250 & 300. Does that make sense to anyone besides Toyota? Maybe GS will have different engines than 3 & 4.3!

lexusguy

None of us get it. The debate just keeps going.

boomsama

They say the GS350 may eventually reach other parts of the world. A new replacement for the 4.3 is coming soon, the 450/460h. Somehow I think Toyota and Lexus know that it's strange that the Avalon will have more power, but don't forget that it only has 5-speed auto while the GS has 6-speed auto and is also a smaller car, meaning it should be able to go faster 0-100km.

00boxsters

I agree that the engine thing makes little sense to any of us.

 

I think the 6 speed automatic made about a 0.5 second difference for the better in the LS430 as memory serves.

 

Besides the AWD option on the GS300, anyone else thinking that the LS430 at nearly the same price would be a better way to go? I'd bet that the discounts available on the LS (since there is a big revision coming) and great residual will bring the monthly lease price Very close to the new non-discounted GS300AWD. I saw a number of 36 month leases in the LS 'prices paid' area in the mid $700's.

psychoart

"You are not alone in this feeling. It is preposterous that Lexus will treat the NA market with such disdain with a 3L motor, while releasing a higher output/displacement 3.5L in Japan !!! I am pissed big time... I think it is a potentially HUGE mistake, especially having Toyota release a 3.5L engine in the lower-grade Avalon (relative to the GS).

  

I hope that when it comes to the LS, Lexus better get it right. No screw-ups permitted."

-------------

You have to remember that Lexus is a subdivision of Toyota, which is the actual family name. The Avalon is the proof of the very top model of Toyota in the US, minor some very expensive features that can only be found in Lexus. But it's a Toyota, nonetheless. Even a Lexus GS owner cannot look down on a Toyota (i.e. Avalon).

lexusguy

What about IS350 though? That would be the same as if BMW offered 325i and 330i, and 525i and 545i, with no 530i available

mariner7

What you say is true enough. In the real world, nobody goes 0-60 in those times, and uses 280 hp, luckily for all of us. But because it's easy to remember, people and advertisers remember the hp, not the sprint times. Image is everything, kind of thing!

mariner7

Yesterday I picked up a Japanese auto magazine, and saw a Toyota just introduced, Mark V. I think it's almost identical to the future GS. The interior is different, not nearly as nice as GS. It's funny how rebadging is an anathema, but will be practiced at the highest level by both Toyota (Mark/GS, Crown/LS) and Nissan (Fuga/M). It's because some companies try to rebadge junk, but GS and M are obviously hi quality products. So it's not rebadging by itself that destroys the brands, it's the junk products!

boomsama

If you're talking about the Crown Athlete/Royal, it's the same platform as the GS. Are you sure you don't mean the Mark X? I'm pretty sure the LS is not the top Toyota, I think that title belongs to the Crown Majesta. Don't forget the LS is still sold in Japan as the Toyota Celsior.

00boxsters

Have the 2006 preview spec's been on the US website long?

callmedrfill

LS=Celsior

 

  At least as of this past generation.

 

  DrFill

speedlux

For the last time people, Lexus is No Longer toyota Rebadge, so let goes of it's past. They promised it's nothing like Lexus we known in drivng experience before.

 

I don't know about Infiniti, there is no confirm about it's no longer nissan Rebadge.

callmedrfill

Rebadging is what Caddy did (not too long ago) with Tahoe and Escalade.

 

   There are degrees of rebadging, and doing it well. You can make two cars, of the same size and platform, engine, and give them vastly different looks and personalities.

 

   The Lexus ES and Camry is done very well, as evidenced by the mighty sales of both. Their identity don't wash over each other. Each buyer gets a look and identity for the car that is suitable for the price paid.

 

   You sit in an ES and you don't think this is a Camry at all!

 

   Everybody does it, but few do it well.

 

   DrFill

lexusguy

It depends on what's implied by a "rebadge". If it means GM and Ford's "badge engineering" then no, Toyota doesnt do that. If it means platform and some part sharing, then yes, Lexus still has plenty of platform shared Toyota cars. All of the SUVs, and ES come from NA market Toyotas. Thats probably going to change in another 10 years or so, but for now they are doing a pretty good job of making Lexus appear to be worth the additional cash. An example of a bad job is the Infiniti I30\I35, which was literally a dead ringer for a Maxima GLE.

kfhmail

IMHO...

 

The ES and the Camry look alot alike on the outside.

mariner7

In my book, ES/Camry is an example of rebadging. But Toyota does it very well, making ES luxurious interior worth the upgrade.

 

Passat/A4 is another example of very successful rebadging, but I think the two are moving to different platforms.

 

New Lexus design made in Italy?

 

http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=46933

merc1

The Passat and A4 are not a simple badge job. There are many more changes than that. Ditto for the ES330 and Camry. These two are examples of platform sharing. Though I'd say the A4 and Passat are further apart in looks than the ES330 and Camry, but thats neither here nor there. For 2006 the Passat switches to the Golf platform which has nothing to do with the A4 or A6.

 

A badge job is the current Cadillac Escalade and its Chevy cousins, same vehicles right down to the body panels. Another badge job is the Saab 9-7x, a rebadged Chevy Trailblazer and Saab 9-2x which is a rebadged/grilled Subaru WRX.

 

M

callmedrfill

How's it goin'? Been a long time.

 

  Funny article I read about GM's outlook on '05, with high Health care, no new cars till late in the year, and the full-size makeovers in Spring of 2006. Sales of Full-size SUV's down 5% in '04.

 

  GM's GM shrugs it off, blames Expedition for the drop (down 12% for the year), and sees a bright, stable future for GM's biggest SUV's.

 

  Betting their farm on that is....interesting.

 

  DrFill

lexusguy

You'll notice that both GM and Ford have been forced to make Highlander competitors though (albiet not very good ones). I think both are in for a bit of a surprise, the Excursion was DOA, and people just dont want a Suburban anymore.

callmedrfill

If they lose big trucks/SUVs, game over!!

 

   DrFill

merc1

Yeah I'd figured I would drop in to see what all the posts were about.

 

I must say that all the guessing about the GS' future engines is interesting reading to say the least. I can't believe you guys don't see what they're going to do its clear as day to me....lol.

 

M

lexusguy

Oh by all means then good sage, please enlighten us.

merc1

I think its pretty simple. Lexus isn't going to do a GS350 until the next generation V8 debuts in the LSxxx. When the next V8 debuts, then and only then will the GS350 come to the market. You know 280 and 300 hp totals are way to close to justify anyone buying the GS430.

 

The hybrids and where they fit are a seperate issue. Those who say Toyota didn't develop a new 3.0 direct-injection V6 for nothing car are correct, then engine will live on in other products. Possibly the next Camry where mpg matters more than in a 280hp GS350 because they hybrid GS450h will be the one for mpg seekers.

 

 

Now what I don't understand is why anyone would buy a ES330 now with the new Avalon coming. It has the same interior look, more power and more room, only thing its even uglier.

 

M

lexusguy

Yeah that is a good question. The '05 Avalon has heaps more power, more room, and in Limited trim, basically 98% as much luxury. I have to wonder in '07 when the ES gets redesigned, why Lexus wouldnt base an ES350 around the Avalon, rather than the Camry.

callmedrfill

Furst, Two Tings:

 

   Furst Ting: I said that a while ago!

 

   I have already stated that the 3.5 should make it's debut in the GS 'round the LS introducion in Fall of '06.

 

   Second ting: There are reasons to buy the ES!

 

   Obviously the service, the fact that a lot of people don't want to buy a first year car (yes, even a mighty 'Yota!), and obviously the look is more upscale, not as generous and conservative. Driving a Lexus adds prestige to any driveway (despite what Merc would have you believe).

 

   I wouldn't throw away an ES just yet, as evidenced by the HUGE sales spike in '04 with the upgraded engine! The ES will be just fine. Many makers wish they could sell one sedan, one trim level, and scored 75k a year!

 

   DrFill

merc1

I guess I don't see any prestige in two very, very unattractive cars, therefore the one that represents the better value should come to the front, the Avalon...imho. Come to think of it I don't see any prestige any Lexus until you reach the GS,SC,LS level because the Avalon could just be rebaged as a Lexus and ES330 buyers wouldn't know the difference. Lots of serious overlap going on between what is supposed to be a regular Toyota and a exclusive luxury brand.

 

callmedrfill,

 

"I have already stated that the 3.5 should make it's debut in the GS 'round the LS introducion in Fall of '06."

 

Sorry I didn't see where you said that already.

 

M

callmedrfill

You also missed the "Who rebadges" discussion as well?

 

   I don't know if it was in this topic, but it should be common knowledge (by now) that 'Yota/Lexus doesn't "Rebadge", they share platforms and engines, but make truly different vehicles off a given platform.

 

   GM is still trying to emerge from the rebadged womb, if you will.

 

   DrFill

merc1

Well I wasn't saying that is what Toyota does, I'm saying that if they did re-badge the 2006 Avalon as a Lexus, Lexus buyers wouldn't know the difference mainly because of the interior amd exterior designs. That and the fact that it is bigger and more powerful makes the supposed to be better luxury-branded ES330 look a little obsolete imo. There certainly isn't a styling advantage on either either side of the fence either.

 

 

Actually Toyota does do some rebadging, specially with "Lexus" vehicles being the same and simply badged as "Toyota" in Japan, yes I know that is about to change. There is no difference between whatever the LS is called in Japan, the Toyota "......" and the Lexus LS430 sold everywhere else, that is badge work.

 

 

I agree about GM, they're famous for it. What they're doing to Saab is about the worst thing I can think of on the automotive landscape.

 

  

What are the specs on the GS450h? V8+electrics or V6+electrics???

 

M

callmedrfill

China I care about. Why?

 

   Remember the huge cement short a couple of years ago, that slowed our housing starts in this country? China is building all the highway they car to become the #1 car market on Earth.

 

   I wonder who will really win there. I guess by 2015 we should get a sense for it.

 

   If you rebadge cars in the same country, then you have a beef. If you rebadge something no one here has eber seen, it's all butter, baby! That's called smart business.

 

   Anyway, the Avalon is way too big to be an ES, as it would step on the LS's size.

 

   DrFill

lexusguy

What you get with the ES over the Avalon is the service that comes with a Lexus badge. Toyota dealerships are rediculously busy, and Toyota certainly doesnt come to your house and pick up your car for service or anything like that. The '05 Avalon really is a better value than the '05 ES, but you dont get the "Lexus experience" with an Avalon.

merc1

I guess that could be a reason, but still.

 

M

lexusguy

I definitely agree that Lexus will need to move the ES a bit further upmarket if they dont want the new Avalon to start canibalizing sales.

callmedrfill

The ES has a larger, happier customer base to sell to.

 

  The Avalon is positioned as a family car, but now with excellent luxury.

 

  I don't think any Lexus customer will leave Lexus to go to a Toyota store, just on service.

 

  I don't even believe Toyota cares! As long as they keep the sale in the family, the margins are similar, price similar.

 

  Avalon's conquest sales should be LaSabres, Bonnevilles, Maximas.

 

  I don't expect more from the next ES than the 245HP 3.0.

 

  DrFill

sorter

Auto market is very segmented. ES330 and Avalon appeal to different customers with the same price (limited and ES). But while having both cars, Toyota win more customers. If there is any true to the thinking of Merc1, then there will be no avalon XL and Camry XLE.

 

Remember, Toyota will have 9 SUVs, and toyota is winning.

bartalk2

According to the Jan. 24 issue of Automotive News, the trade journal of the auto industry, Lexus will release the "GS350 and GS460" in the U.S. this spring.

 

What's the story?

00boxsters

I spoke to my local Lexus salesman who was at a RX400h class last week. While there he was able to check out (but not drive) the 2006 GS. He told me it was a 3.0 liter V6 and not a 3.5L. He (not unexpectantly) raved about the cars features and design. When I asked if there was anything less than stellar about the car he said it was 'not the most roomy' car.

 

Lexus' tight lipped nature has gotten the customers and the press fouled up with misinformation, which is going to co$t them...

bartalk2

I contacted the fellow who wrote the story in Automotive News about the forthcoming GS350/460, and he replied

 

 "those are the trademarked names for the new vehicles, as appplied for by Toyota to the US Patent and Trademark Office."

 

Go figure.

 

Also announced (or trademarked by Lexus):

 

IS250/IS350 Fall '05

ES350 Spring '06

GS 450h Spring '06

LS 460 Fall '06

callmedrfill

ES customers aren't buying the car for speed. They might detune the engine to around 250, then give it full power in a facelift. I'd be pretty surprised if they go straight to 275HP+.

 

   These sound credible to me. I had an inkling the IS might go around the 3.0, but it should be used by some Lexus. But this navigates around the 258HP in the 330i.

 

   I would guess a the price difference in the GS300 and GS450 or 460 would be quite a chasm, so I still expect the 3.5 to make it a well-rounded group.

 

   If they are using the IS250, then weight should be pretty similar to the current car. Hopefully they maintain the price.

 

   DrFill

callmedrfill

The LS is gonna be big, with a LWB model, so what's the problem?

 

   The E-class has a big back seat.

  

   DrFill