By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
Merc1: You may not believe it, but any Lexus is looked at as prestigious, be it an IS or an LS. Your friends don't say, hey you only drive an ES or IS so that don't count as a Lex ? Do they ? Ditto for an MB. Most people simply say I drive an MB, even when they drive the lowly C240!
WRT Avalon-v-ES330, Avalon buyer demographics is slightly older than most Yota cars. The ES sells to upper middle class guys who would rather be in a Lexus than a souped-up Toyota; the latter remains the lesser-named brand, obviously.... Even if the Avalon gets a 300hp engine, the ES will continue to sell as briskly as it does. Lexusguy is correct, buyers here are not buying the Lex for the speed, its the total package of owning a Lex that is more appealing to the buyer here.
The whole issue with the introduction of Lexus in '89 was the fact that the marketing teams had to break the perception that Japan couldn't build a luxury car to compete on the same level of prestige and (better) quality with the Europeans. To that end, there were to be NO Lexus dealerships that shared any correlation with a Toyota dealership.
Where is this Toy/Lexus dealership you speak of? I've never seen one, and I thought the Toyota Motor Corporation had explicit rules against this type of franchising?
I'll look for the exact page, but I swore I remember reading this in 'The Lexus Story'. (Its excellent, btw, and I really recommend that any Lexus fan pick it up... handsome 'L' logo on the cover as well).
~alpha
Since you asked: Grad school in 1991-95
Where is this Toy/Lexus dealership you speak of? I've never seen one, and I thought the Toyota Motor Corporation had explicit rules against this type of franchising?
The Lex dealership was across the street from the Toy shop hence my loose association as Toy/Lex (owned by the same guy), and the Sales Manager used to work in the Lex dealership before moving across the street to the Toy shop. This happened when he worked at the Lex shop. As he stated it, he couldn't find the ES300 the guy wanted, and suggested if the buyer would consider a LOADED Camry as a worthy replacement (it's right across the street, literally)?
~alpha
Oh I believe it, you have badge people for every brand, but in the case of the Avalon and the ES330 there isn't any substance over the Avalon to warrant any prestige imo. The ES330 is imo just that, a tarted up Toyota compared to the Lexus GS,LS,SC models and now it isn't even superior to the lesser "Toyota" once you look past the badge.
M
GS460 Fall '06
But why release the 3.0L for only one MY for the GS ? No sense in that whatsoever, imo.
He said the 350 and 460 will be "mid-cycle upgrades" to which I replied that "mid-cycle" is perhaps a slight exaggeration, considering that it may be only 6 months or a year, thus putting the forthcoming 300 and 430 in a kind of resale limbo.
H
Now that makes a lotta sense especially as Lexus wants to compete against the engine variants of the BMW.
Is the 40HP gonna make you sell the car after a year? Is that THE reason you buy a car? I don't understand that perspective. If you would buy the car with 245hp, that's enough power for you. Why lose thousands trading for 35-40hp?
HP can't be why you are buying this car.
DrFill
If Infiniti advertises the M as they did for the Q45, it will guarantee it to FAIL. That much I can surmise.
But we digress, this is a forum about the new GS afterall. As long as the GS comes with the 3 (or 4) engine variants - 3L/AWD, 3.5L, 4.6L, and 450h, Lexus will do just fine.
Also, Nissan seems to be becoming the Japanese Pontiac, with all sorts of boy racer designs. The current Maxima, e.g., is, frankly, weird and over the top and almost vulgar in design, and I don't think as durable as earlier models.
"Infiniti: it ain't a Lexus" How is that a bad thing? Lexus has all sorts of concerns to worry about in terms of its image, how its typical customers will react to sport vs. luxury, etc. Lexus tried to make a sports sedan and it was a flop. Nobody knew Infiniti existed until G35 hit the scene. Infiniti has no image of cars to protect. They are free to do what they want, and they are selling G35s and FX35\45s by the boat load. I dont think M sales will be trouble for them at all. I think Acura is probably shaking in their boots right about now, though.
Even if the GS does match the new M (which I doubt) how does Lexus market the IS and GS it along the very staid and boring LS and ES all the while maintaining the traditional Lexus values? Lexus is trying to have it both ways, only time will tell if they can.
I also think Acura's RL will have its coming out party ruined by this time next year.
M
While I agree that Audi is in similar postion I think they have a better chance to grow once they get some more 2-door models and crossovers in the lineup, that and their styling which unlike Acura's does cause a reaction..whether good (A8) or bad (A6's grille). At least it is something to talk about, Acura's styling is still very much forgettable across to board, imo. Audis are too imo just as luxurious as any Mercedes, especially the A6 and A8, but they haven't matched BMW yet on the sport side. When they do it seems that they miss the right balance between ride and handling, per some recent roadtests of the A8 and new A6. I seem to read where the ride is either too soft of too hard.
Acura seems to be content with the 25-40K market with one 50K car. We could be talking about a "problem" that Acura doesn't feel they have or see a need to address. Just a thought.
M
Here, in West L.A., where there is an abundance of wealth and a premium placed upon style, it is not difficult to understand why there is a lack of Japanese luxury vehicles rolling along the Sunset Strip. With Mercedes' unbeatable cachet, advanced technology, and success in the horsepower battle, along with BMW's nonpareil driving dynamics and quality interiors, and the Range Rover as the unequivocal off-roading luxury SUV, why would any of Southern California's elite settle for something as bland as Lexus or as ugly as Infiniti? Mercedes and BMW are their cars of choice. And the uppercrust prefers brands like Bentley, Maybach, and Rolls-Ryce, which are actually owned by German luxury companies anyway.
Thats no longer true. It doesnt sound like the particular drivers your speaking of are concerned with sporty driving anyway, they are solely concerned with the badge on the front of the car, and continue to fork over $5-10K more for it. As for the US as a whole, it used to be much the same way around 15 years ago. Mercedes was invincible. Lexus showed them a thing or two. Guess who's the #1 seller now? I'll give you a hint, its not German.
My wife owns a Lexus. No trouble and an absolute pleasure to have it serviced. (My extended family owns two other's with the same experience.)
Back in 1989 or 1990 my father was choosing between the just introduced Lexus LS and an Infiniti Q. We drove both and at the time he was 100% Lexus and I was the opposite. I believe it was then that I realized that Lexus was emulating Mercedes and Infiniti was emulating BMW with their philosophy and products.
I now find Lexus to be a more reliable and better valued Mercedes in a way. This is also why I am upset over the GS300awd engine being left behind by the E350/awd as well as its Japanese 3.5L GS counterpart, the RL/awd and the M/awd. Why not put your best foot forward Lexus?
Maybe they have when they the new avalon rolls into the dealerships next week. This would also solve your reliability issue with the E. I have an E for the MRS. but can't keep her out of my avalon, maybe it just seems that way since the E spends a lot of time in the shop.
They are smart, but too smart for their own good. They think they know more than the buyer. Sure-fire way to underachieve.
Infiniti's ceiling is the extent of the first (rotten) impression they made on the US market. Lexus doesn't sweat Infiniti, nor should they! They are Audi-esque (remember the Audi 5000 debacle). They can make great cars, but they are their own worst enemy.
And even though I am no big fan of the new GS, it is LIGHT YEARS better-looking than the M. The way Nissan styles there cars just turns my stomach. They've had some stunning successes recently, but when they are bad, they are AWFUL!
I'd rather be conservative than just rancid! They just throw darts at a board sometimes!
You know what I wish Lexus would do.
Split the company into subdivisions, with seperate marketing budgets, and seperate agendas and specs based off each other. Have the ES/LS as the luxury sedan clique. Have the GS/IS as a sports clique (and get the SC there QUICKLY). And Group the SUV's together, like they already have in last year's successful ad campaign. Then in a few years, market the Hybrid class together.
And build that SUV from the '03 Auto show circuit! That was sweet! And big! It was bigger than a SRX, but just so elegant. That would be huge here!
So in closing, Acura is a non factor. Infiniti is deadman walking (the G35 is the seeing-eye dog). Audi is a borne second-fiddle, and VW is dumbing it down. And once Lexus sharpens this sporting edge it's considering, and brings out the hybrids, this game is all over but the crying.
DrFill
"Lexus doesn't sweat Infiniti, nor should they!"
"And build that SUV from the '03 Auto show circuit!"
I assume you mean the LF-X? Those two statements seem to contradict each other. Lexus very much sweats Infiniti. Just glancing at the LF-X and its pretty obvious that it is aimed directly at the FX45. The G35 crushed the IS300, and now Lexus is remaking the IS to better compete with G35. Infiniti essentially made no impression on most of the American market until the G35 hit the press. I dont think they are worried about 3 people that might remember the M30 and J30.
The G has been a great success, but isn't a class-altering success. The 3-series is STILL the benchmark, in sales and dynamics, and that is where Lexus is swinging.
The LF-X is MUCH bigger than the FX, as I said, bigger than the Caddy SRX too (slightly).
It wouldn't be a hardcore performer like the FX, it would be a larger RX with an edge to it.
The FX is successful, but again, it is not THE CLASS, just one of many fine choices. The LF-X brings something new to that class, if it were built. It seems unlikely before '07.
DrFill
Tested are the M35, RL, 530i, A6 3.2, STS V6, S-Type 3.0, and NO GS300. Anyone wonder if Lexus wants to Avoid a direct comparison so soon?
I won't give away the winner for those who are expecting this issue in the mail.
However, I thought the omission of the E class curious, and I wonder why MT didnt just wait until the GS debuts.
People who are "pooh-poo"ing a particular vehicle from a particular competitor would be wise to check out the article.
~alpha
I imagine no E320 because MB wanted to hold off until the E350 was ready.
As for why MT didn't wait, they probably just wanted to be the "first" to be out with a comparo in this new hot segment. They're competing for readers with C&D, R&T, and Automobile Mag.
Also, the LS crushed the Q, and the RX easily outsells the FX, and will to a greater extent when the hybrid version comes out.
Comparing Lexus and Infiniti is like comparing apples to oranges. If Toyota would tighten up some screws with the new GS, they just might hit paydirt. Then again, Infiniti probably will do well with the M as well.
But the thing that I keep on forgetting is that a lot of people (who don't research cars) would pick an E-Class or a 5 Series automatically. Lexus needs to prove that they can have a degree of sportiness not as extreme as BMW's, but at least able to throw about.
The main problem I have with Infiniti is that the styling of their cars is odd. Not bad, but the new M looks a lot like the G. Also, Infiniti does not have the reliability record that Lexus does. If you were a little old lady and had a bit of money, would you pop for a GS or an M?
GS is my guess.
Exactly why I wouldn't buy a Lexus. Why would I as a young professional want to drive the same car as a an old lady? When I tested the RX vs FX that is exactly why I bought the FX. The RX was just all around too soft. The only cars that Lexus makes that I like are the GS and LS. If they wussify the GS by bringing over the underpowered 3.0 they will again lose another 40k+ of my dollars and I will be driving a new M
Very interesting suggestions. Interesting indeed. Maybe Lexus is listening ?? But, I agree with lexusguy, Lexus won't do it. It simply does not jell with their business model. Kinda waters down the brand somewhat. Remember, their is strength in numbers !
Lexusguy:
chris65amg said it best. Lexus and Infiniti don't (yet) play on same field. Until Infiniti can sell a full-size luxury car, they are not yet a serious contender in the luxury market that Lexus is designed for.
Let me ask you a question: Of ALL Infiniti cars/SUVs, which of the styling do you find appealing ? Look at ALL of Nissan cars/SUVs, the Alt and Xterra are OK-looking, the Max/Sentra/Murano/Quest all suck, and I find the Z the best of the bunch. The trucks (Titan and Armada) are just plain awful, BIG, Yes, but awful all the same.
I digress again: The GS will compete against the M, but I doubt if it will make that much dent in the 5 and E. These two will continue their reign in the lux-sport space. When the GS350/460/450h arrives by MY2008, then the space will change and the field will level a whole lot. Would Infiniti fix their Q troubles ? Not likely in the short term, and therein lies their archiles heel. Lexus is running away with the luxury market in the US, and doesn't look like they will relinquish the title anytime soon.
FWIW, Infinti just spanked the 5-series BMW in the most recent issue of Motor Trend, topping the field. This is a car that will continue the strong momentum and increasing respect of Infiniti
brand.
And, besides... its only a matter of time before the Q is replaced.
For me, this new M is a true luxury-sports entry, one that Lexus will do well to pay attention to.
~alpha
Beating the 5 does not necessarily translate into a higher prestige than the Bimmer in *most* of the buying public's mind. BMW made its money on reputation, and they are no where losing that for now. As long as Infiniti is not considered at the same brand-recognition level as BMW, it can win as many comparos, won't change the market dynamics that much, imo.
Overall I see the "regular" luxury brands in this order:
1. Mercedes-Benz........then BMW.
2. Lexus-Audi-Jaguar-Cadillac-Infiniti (all trying to get to next level overall, imo)
3. Volvo-Saab-Lincoln-Acura
4. ?
At the end of it all its still Mercedes and then BMW, and then all the rest..when you look at the overall brand, imo.
I see Audi and especially Infiniti stars rising, especially amoung enthusiasts over the next few years. The only way for Lexus to gain any more clout or prestige outside of their most competive cars (the LS430) is for the new GS and IS to be a hit with enthusiast, not the Consumer Reports crowd. They already own that group, but it isn't going to mean anything if Infiniti keeps their same CR/JDP standings while providing the "sport" and styling that Lexus is sorely missing right now.
M
Source: Thecarconnection.com
M
Today, everyone in the US knows that Lexus is the epitome of luxury and reliability - real or perceived. BMW has performance, and MB has marque brand cache. Infiniti is not in the same breadth of these three brands. To be mentioned, a luxury brand must have a higher entry car which defines its brand. Neither Infiniti nor Acura has one, but Lexus does. Therein lies the difference.
There is no way a brand that is the undisputed #1 luxury BRAND in sales volume 5+ years in a row be considered a second-tier luxury brand. I suggest you put down the pipe/koolade Merc1. And please let us not start talking about trim levels, again. Its old news and well worn debate.
Sales, btw are only one component and they aren't the sole factor in determining image. Cadillac was the best selling luxury brand for the previous 40 years until Lincoln beat them in 1998, but their image was in the toilet.
I agree that Lexus has a leg up on Infiniti, and that Acura isn't even close, no argument from me there. Lexus however still isn't at Mercedes' or BMW's level overall. Your guy that runs Lexus even says the volume isn't the end-all, image is and when it comes to that Lexus is still behind MB and BMW, once you get past their reliability ratings, which is equally old news. The L just doesn't have any excitement to it, yet.
M
~alpha