Lexus GS 300/GS 430

00boxsters

Nice interior....suprise!

 

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3790

bartalk2

For those who have waited patiently for the new GS300 and want to buy one, is it possible that that 3.0 V-6 engine is a one-year lame duck, to be replaced as early as next year with the 3.5? Hmmm. Besides less than stellar acceleration, what will that do to the resale value of this "transitional" model?

lexusguy

I'd say thats definitely a possibility. The 530i is kind of a lame duck as well considering the new engine is due very soon too isnt it? That doesnt seem to have hurt it too badly.

00boxsters

How does Lexus come out of this possible deception smelling like a rose if not releasing the 3.5L GS in March? Particularly with articles and pictures showing the Lexus brass standing in front of GS350s.

 

If they just came out with the 3.0L with respectable specs then it would suffice maybe. However if they came out with the 3.0L for the true loyalists and preorders and in a year upgraded the engine to 3.5Ls then they would smell like crap. Folks would not soon forget.

 

Because of the 3.5L Acura, Mercedes and BMW, Lexus has nowhere to go but 3.5L in March the way I see it. We are all concerned/suspect because of the actual cars with GS300 tags showing up though at shows and a dealership in CA. I just cannot see such a thoughtful company disappointing with a 3.0L in March.

lexusguy

Keep in mind that the LS430 hardly leads the world with displacement and horsepower, but Lexus is having no trouble with sales. Also, BMW has added around 250hp to their 3.0L, but they are not increasing displacement. Audi's new engine is also only 3.1L (badged as 3.2)

 

So, if the car does show up here in the states as GS300, which I believe it will, it will be competitive power wise with 530i, A6 3.2, and STS, but down on power compared to E350, M35, and RL. Traditionally, competitive but not class leading power has been good enough for Lexus, the company has never felt they need to get into a war with Nissan and Honda. I think Lexus should go straight to GS350 in ALL parts of the world, but that may not be what their plans are.

oac

I still habor a sneaky feeling that Lexus will instead debut the next GS with the 3.5L. It will make the most sense, imo. It will be preposterous to have an IS350, an ES330 and have a GS300 !!! Just doesn't make too much sense to me. I am on my way to the auto show. I will be definitely interested to find out anything to shed light on this GS engine snafu !!!

bartalk2

I can't see Lexus pulling some kind of magician's stunt and pulling a surprise 3.5L out of the hat after they had promised a 3.0. I don't think car manufacturers do things like that. Much more likely, in my view, is a later introduction of the 3.5.

 

Lexusguy, the 530 situation is somewhat similar but this is the second year for that same engine in the redesigned model, so buyers haven't gotten the feeling that the current engine was just a temporary plug. And that engine was standard on the previous model for years. Also they are giving advance warning about the new replacement engine.

pearl

the D.C. autoshow. I spoke to the Lexus rep at some length about the 3L vs. 3.5L issue and he said that the car is definitely going to debut with the 3L/245hp engine (with the 4.3L as an option). I asked what he thought about being at a disadvantage vs. his competitors with 3.5L engines and he said that it would be an issue and that "many" people had mentioned it to him. The car did look very good - I liked it better than any of its competitors except the M35/45 which I thought was about a draw in terms of styling. All of that said, I don't want a V8, but would hesitate to buy the GS given that it will arrive with the 3L and then almost certainly change out to the 3.5L in for the 07 model year. Frankly, I think that Lexus was crazy to offer this car with the 3L to start in the U.S. market and should have just made the 3.5L standard.

lexusguy

I assume the rep had no info on when the 3.5L would take over?

pearl

No, he did not have any specific date, but said that a 3.5L would be coming. If Lexus has the engine ready, it would seem odd if they did not get in out as soon as possible given that the competition already would be there. I doubt that they would change in the middle of a model year, so given that the "06" will be out for about a year and a half before the "07's" debut, that would seem like a good time to bring out the new motor - just wish they were doing it from the start.

oac

I just returned from the SD auto show and pretty much heard the same thing as pearl described. I am shocked at the low level of information the Lexus reps had or willing to share. One I talked to was very snooty.... Kinda laughed at my mention of a 3.5L motor saying he never heard of that engine. So I asked him to tell me what engines will come in the redesigned IS. The same snooty rep told me it will have the same 3.0L V6 as in the GS. Then it was my turn to laugh at him. I told him that I am surprised he still had a job with Lexus seeing how little he knows about his job and the cars he is trained to sell. Read off a number of auto mag reports he needs to read to be aware of the patent filings, the 2.5L, 3.5L, 4.6L, 4.5H and maybe a 5L.... He just stared at me like I was crazy or something !

 

On a side note, I sat in a base (v8) LWB Phaeton today. What a car ! That it is a VW is probably the single biggest reason why it is a sales disappointment! Put an Audi or a Bentley on that car, and up the price to 100K+, and you'll get the traffic and the buyers in a NY minute ! The sales guy told me unfortunately, the Phaeton is on its way out due to lack of interest from the public Sad, really.

 

Back to the GS. I finally saw the '06 in person. Let me put it this way, it is not bad looking, but did not move me to get behind the wheel. It is like a typical Lexus - not too flashy, not too daring, just a solid car. Period. Would I buy one. Nope. But I am not a GS customer anyway. My sight is on the LS, and surprise surprise, no info on the '07 LS from the Lexus folks at the auto show. Bloody waste of my time talking to these people since I know a lot more about their cars than they do.

 

So, the long and short of my post is that I am NOW leaning towards a GS300/GS430 in the March 2005 debut. Not the most competitive, solid step Lexus should be taking, but then, with so much money in the kitty, they may not care much. Maybe their primary concern is the splash earmarked for the MY2007 LS to re-define Lexus once again. We'll see, but I am not a happy Lexus camper right about now !

 

lexusguy

The Phaeton is a flop for a number of reasons, its Volkswagen badge being just one. For one thing, the Audi A8 already weighs a million pounds, and since VW couldnt use the ASF (they are already stepping on A8s toes badly enough with the car) it is mostly steel and weighs a BILLION pounds. All that heft equals poor handling, there's just no way around it. Combine that with awful controls and very mediocre reviews at launch, and it makes a tough sell. It also looks like a Passat that ate too many meat lovers Pizzas. Absolutely zero style of any kind. The A8 is a MUCH more attractive car.

oac

Agree on the Phaeton. Trouble is, the Friday crowd at the SD auto show had little interest in Audis, while traffic at the VW booth was much larger comparatively. Other cars not getting much interest include Subaru, Volvo, Mitsu (large collections of worthless (imo) cars/trucks at the show) and the Koreans. Infiniti had a pretty nice booth with many variants of the G. I do like the G35x, but its price tag of $39K was discouraging. Fun looking car tho'. The RL was disappointing. Too cramped in the back seat for a $50K 4-door family sedan. I'm probably going to make it to the LA show. Hopefully there'll be far more savvy Lexus reps out there to shed some light on their future plans into MY2007.

 

Happy New Year everyone.

bubble_gum

Hey guys,

 

Recently, I asked two Lexus salesmen about the possible 3.5L for the new GS.

 

Their answers, "Not at this time."

 

So I asked, "If not at this time, then will there be one in the future?"

 

Their answers, "I do not know."

 

Geez.

00boxsters

http://lexus.jp/

callmedrfill

The last two LExus GS models had strong two-year runs, then faded fast, so they probably will hold the 3.5 until Fall of '06, when the Launch momentum starts to wane. A analytical, calculated move than can work if Lexus gets enough right to cover this gap in the lineup.

 

   I have seen the car at the NYIAS and I don't like it, but I also like the current GS better, and the new M45 and A6 also leave me cold. The RL looks like a really good $40k car. And I sat in the RL at the Orlando Car Show. The dash is pretty sweet, the back seat is straight out of an Accord.

 

   The Germans are prettier to my eyes, but according to the mags, have sold some soul for some more hi-tech acrynoms. I'd avoid this market class all together and git a 2-year old A6 2.7T 6-speed, but that's just me.

 

   I think Lexus is very confident in the new GS with the LS on it's last (EXTREMELY strong) legs, and the IS still almost a year away. So the IS will have the 3 and 3.5 at launch? 245Hp and 2--HP? Will it have more than the Avalon? More than the G35? would expect a BMW 3.5 to be around 300HP. I haven't heard any quotes on that.

 

   I'm guesing the LS 2007 will base around $60k, and will totally rock, so the V8 GS better have a pretty strong stake in the ground if it wants any play. A Hybrid option for '07 (before the LS launch) would help.

 

   I'm disappointed by the styling,and people will probably step right over it to get to the new LS, so I don't see GS fortunes turning after it's first 2 years.

 

   DrFill

jrock65

So the Japanse Lexus GS will start as a GS350.

 

My guess is that Lexus already built quite a few of the 3 liter V6 engines, and are going to put em in the US Lexus GS versions to use them up. Then they'll go to the 3.5 next year.

 

Can't think of any other reason. Maybe some cost savings too.

cove148

Do you think the Lexus 3.5 engine will be the same as the one coming out in the Avalon next month?

jrock65

I think so. It might have different hp ratings (I think 280hp in the Avalon), but probably the same engine.

 

No reason to waste money on two completely different 3.5L engines.

lexusguy

The only problem with that is the RL is a $50K car, not 40. You...know how awful a car the old A6 was..dont you? It's one of the worst Audi's ever in terms of reliability and recalls, and the 1.8T and 2.7T engines in particular are gluttons for their owners punishment. The IS will have 2.5 and 3.5 engine options. The 2.5 should be 215-220hp, about the same as the outgoing engine. The 3.5 I think will be roughly 270-280hp.

sorter

according that Lexus offical site in Japan, there is one more engine on the list. Due 06. It must be the hybrid.

callmedrfill

Lexus' plan to have a Hybrid engine in the GS for (calender year) 2006.

 

  I'd expect this to happen before the '07 LS is introduced, adding feul to the GS fire before the revolutionary LS takes over, again. Timing here will be crucial.

 

  DrFill

lexusguy

Yeah I remember reading something from Danny Clements about how Lexus needs to be more "German" in the way that they introduce models and engines. He said that introducing a model and letting it sit for 5 years and then a refresh and then two more years isn't working, they need to do something to keep getting on the covers, ala BMW and Mercedes.

oac

Aha....

 

That's it ! Now I remember that quote exactly. It will then make sense out of this sheer senseless of the 3L and 3.5L motors..... You and DrFill have put it right. The 3L will run aprox 18 months, the AWD comes in, and then mild refresh with the 3.5L engine upgrade. In the meantime, the 3.5L would have been released in Japan (needed a BIG release to launch lexus in the home market), with the NA market receiving this engine later. Darn Lexus to trick us out like this ! Why their BIGGEST market gets treated like second class beats me. That 3.5L should debut in the US since this is the biggest competitive field with the Germans.

lexusguy

Not... really. Lexus has been the #1 luxury brand in the US for quite awhile. Where Lexus REALLY needs to gain strength is home in Japan and in Europe. It really does make sense if you think about it. The RL has already launched, and the M35\45 is due at the same time as the GS. The RL should be getting an A-spec package sooner or later, but thats it. The M should sit unchanged for quite awhile. Meanwhile, in a year, Lexus introduces new, more powerful V6. Lexus introduces new V8. Lexus introduces GS450h. They keep grabbing headlines, and Honda and Nissan sit and watch.

jfz

I'm new to this site. But I am surprised to read the panic in the use of the 3.0L V6. Note that this engine is a direct-injection gasoline engine. This system usually has a 15-20% advantage over a port-injected engine of the same displacement in HP, torque, and efficiency. For the GS product line, 245 hp is not a bad entry level when Lexus can offer the 430 V8 as the compliment.

00boxsters

Not panic but some may be (very) disappointed because of the potential of buying the newly redesigned 2006 GS300 only to be trumped by Lexus itself in 2007 by the GS350. Additionally, with most of the competition either at or very shortly upgrading to 3.5L engines, further disappointment is quite possible in head to head performance comparisons (personal and published).

jrock65

I don't think upgrading the engine from 3.0 to 3.5 will make much of a "splash", especially when most of the competition is already at 3.5. About the same impact as offering some kind of "sport" version of a car.

 

A hybrid with more power will definitely raise some eyebrows though.

callmedrfill

Lexus may even intoduce the Hybrid for '07, and the 3.5 for '08, REPLACING the 3.0 altogether.

 

  3.0 and V8. Then 3.0, Hybrid, V8. The 3.5, Hybrid, V8.

 

  Then Hybrid V8?

 

  It looks as if Lexus is doing so many other thngs right, what happens to this model is just gravy. It's look still disappoints.

  

  Releasing the 3.5 and Hybrid engine in the same year makes no sense. So either one will be available at launch, or they will be introduced in stages.

 

  DrFill

lexusguy

I'm thinking stages, but the hybrid comes out for '08. If you think about it, the 2007 LS should hit with a new bigger and more powerful V8. It makes sense for the GS to get that new 8 the same year. Once GS460 has 330hp+, Lexus can introduce a 270hp+ GS350 without worrying about performance being too close between engines. I dont think there will be a V8\hybrid, at least not for GS. I'm pretty sure the GS450h will be based around the 3.5L V6, with probably something like a 170hp electric for 450hp.

oac

I'm pretty sure the GS450h will be based around the 3.5L V6, with probably something like a 170hp electric for 450hp

 

Lexus already suggested releasing a hybrid-V8 with "a v12 performance and a v6 fuel economy". So this may not support your point here, unless such a v8-hybrid engine will be in a *new* UL (super)-Lexus trim above the LS500 in a future release ??? Of course, that would then mean 3 hybrid engines - 400h (RX), 4.5h (GS) and ??? (LS). Make any sense ??? Not to me .... So I am going to speculate that the 4.5h will be the v8-hybrid motor with the ~500bhp (330hp from the gas-engine v8 + ~170bhp from the battery) That is my speculation !

boomsama

A V8 with V6 economy? That by itself I find is really good.

lexi4life

Yes, but remember it's gonna offer the power of a V12 to compete against the M5 with V6 economy. So it's better than V8 power with V6 economy. Also, I don't think Lexus is gonna lose it's time and money on building and all new V8 just for the needs of the hybrid version. They're just gonna simply take the new 4.6 and add hybrid to make the GS500h. That'd be stupid to build a new 4.5 (0.1 liter less) for the hybrid. And even if they said they're wouldn't have any hybrid IS, I think it could be great for them to match the 3.5 V6 with electric motors to simulate the power of a V8 (compete against S4, CTS-V, future M3, and C55 AMG) with inline 4 economy (!) That'd just be crazy!

lexusguy

Everybody wants a hybrid IS, but at least for the moment they've said no. The reason I thought the GS450h was going to be using the 3.5L is Lexus seems to be using the "h" badge to mean "virtual displacement" ala RX400h. Thats not a 4.0L in there. If GS450h is real, the 3.5L V6 is the only engine that makes sense.

lexi4life

But I thought Lexus wanted to use the 4.6 V8 combined with electric motors, not the 3.5 V6!? They say: V8 with V12 power and V6 economy if I understood well. Your theory about virtual displacement seems right, though.

boomsama

If you remember all those rumours about the GS350GT, everyone said it was to be a 3.5L V6 with a 170hp electric motor.

bartalk2

The Dec. 13 issue of Automotive News, trade journal for the industry, reports that the new Lexus GS will feature either a 3.5L V-6 or a 4.6L V-8. Very strange.

lexi4life

Yeah I remember. But there's something I don't understand: will Lexus offer a sporty version of its GS using hybrid technology + V8 or an economic version of the GS using hybrid + V6 or both? If they built a sporty version it'd be called the GS***GT and if it was an economic and ecologic version it'd be the GS***h (like the future RX400h, which isn't called RX400GT, but RX400h, so it probably means it wasn't built to be sporty, but ecological and economic. I'm kind of all mixed up.

boomsama

I think they'll have the GS350, the GS350+hybrid (GS350h), and then finally the GS450h. I think there will only be ONE GT car for each model, i.e. the GS350GT will be the ONLY GT car involving the GS, so thus it's like the E55 and the M5. You don't see an M530i, M545i and then the M5, (not meaning the M Sport Package).

 

You guys may be wondering why would they use the GS350 for their GT car instead of the GS450? Well there maybe some evidence in the market to support this. The Subaru Liberty (or Legacy in other parts of the world) has their most powerful car as the Liberty GT with 190kw from a 2.0L, while they also have a 3.0L 6cylinder in the lineup, but that only produces 180kw. Thus the GT is more for spirited driving, while the 3.0L is for comfort. Which brings me back to the point that the GS450h may be the comfort car while the GS350GT will be the top sports vehicle.

lexusguy

There hasnt been any information on "GT" Lexus cars for quite awhile. I'm hoping that doesnt mean that Lexus has abandoned the idea of making "in house tuner" cars. However, I dont think the Legacy has anything to do with it. If they want to compete with E55 and M5, they need 400+ hp, which means only one thing, V8+hybrid. The GS350GT may never have existed at all outside of the auto journalist sewing circle.

callmedrfill

Mind you I said the information about Lexus putting a hybrid engine in the GS in 2006 (calender year) was extrapolated by a reporter covering Mr. Cho's year-end conference on the state of Toyota. No direct quotes were used in regards to this issue, but that's what he felt confident reporting.

 

  The way I see it, the 3.0 will lead off followed by the Hybrid 3.0/Intro 3.5 around this time next year, then the 4.6 for 2007 with 340-350HP (to stay AHEAD of 545/A6), then a 450HP Hybrid V8 for 2008.

 

  The only thing is Lexus will NOT have FIVE engine variations in the GS (3, 3.5, Hybrid V6, V8, Hybrid V8). So I would guess by 2008 the 3.0 will be dropped, and the 3.5 will be the base engine.

 

  BUT, Lexus made this all-new 3.0 for a reason. It HAS to be in the IS or GS long-term to make any sense economically. The only reason it can work is that it will be the basis for all future Lexus Hybrid V6 models, and the 3.3 will be phased out.

 

  My understanding is the 3. is a super modern plant, that is lighter and more efficient than the 3.3, which I believe is a bored and warmed-over last-gen 3.0 that has been in the Toyota family for many years. And is too close to the 3.5 anyway!

 

  Consider the fact that the 3.3 Hybrid in the RX400 only makes 25HP more than a unfitted GS300 (245HP).

 

  Toyota made this 3.0 for major work in the future.

 

lexusguy

Oh I definitely believe that the new 3.0L has a long future with several Toyota models. NOBODY spends all that money developing a brand new direct-injection V6 with a new VVTi system to just throw it out in a few years. However, as you said, think it has a short future in the GS, and based on current info, the IS will not get it at all. I would expect the redesigned ES to get it, as well as whenever the next RX shows. Additionally, it should serve in basically every Toyota V6 powered model except for Avalon.

boomsama

I believe that even if the 3.0L V6 is no longer used in the GS, it will still be used in the Toyota Crown.

callmedrfill

Now I'm thinking this may hint at the next Lexus ES! It is only slightly longer and wider than the current ES. And the highly swept styling is a nice evolution of the current car.

 

  It wouldn't make it here as an LS, it is 3" shorter thasn the current LS.

 

  The real car would be taller than 54".

 

  Why does the concept sport a V8?

 

  DrFill

lexi4life

Yes I don't think Toyota built this new engine just for fun. They're gonna use it in the future that's sure. Here is what I think is going to happen:

 

2006 GS: 3.0 and 4.3 engines (245/300)

2006 IS: 2.5 and 3.0 (200/245)

2006 RX: new 3.0 along with hybrid 3.3 (245/270)

2007 ES: new 3.0 (245)

2007 GS: new 3.5 and 4.6 engines (280/350)

2007 LS: new 4.6 (350)

2007/2008 IS: upgrade 2.5, new 3.5 (220/280)

 

2006 Avalon: 3.5 (280)

2006 Highlander: new 3.0 along with hybrid 3.3 (245/270)

2007 Camry: 2.5 and 3.0 engines (180/245)

2007 Solara: 2.5 and 3.0 engines (180/245)

2007 Sienna: new 3.5 (280)

 

This is pure speculation.

lexusguy

That looks about right, except for a few items. The IS is getting the 3.5L from the beginning, and the 3.5L would be seriously overkill for a Sienna. I dont see a reason to keep the old 3.3L around once the RX gets the 3.0L, especially since the 3.0L is a more advanced and more powerful (and more efficient) engine than the 3.3L. It will probably be a 3.0\3.0h, with 245\290 or something like that.

alpha01

I disagree that the 3.0L will be the new engine for the RX and Highlander. 228 foot pounds of torque already seems high from that size displacement so I dont think it will be stretched much more, and thats a drop of 12 foot pounds from the current engines. The 3.0L likely needs more revs to hit that number too.

 

I think the 3.5L is going to find its way into the RX and HL, if not the Sienna. The Ody has 255 hp, so why is a 3.5L in the Sienna out of the question?

 

~alpha

speedlux

there will be GS V6 hybrid, but not v8 and LS V8 hybrid.

 

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101546

 

I'm thinking if GS3.5L 280hp from new Avalon plus hybrid of 170hp well then this GS GT will be 450hp isn't bad after all. There also a confirmation from Lexus that 3.5L will be in fall 2006. Lexus is smart first they release 3.0L and 4.3L then when 3.5L come they will move to a bigger V8. Then there will be 4 engine just like BMW having 2 V6, V8 and M.

 

Does any one known if there will be any use of alluminum on GS?

lexusguy

Interesting, thats basically what I figured, that GS"450h" was going to be using the 3.5L. Alpha, I suppose its certainly possible that Toyota could detune the 3.5L to maybe 250hp or so for Sienna duty. I just dont think there will be a 280hp minivan anytime soon. If RX and Highlander do get the 3.5L with its full muscle, that will be quite interesting. It will be enough to match M35, and stomp all over the German V6 SUVs.

callmedrfill

One, I'm pretty sure I've said previously the GS should get a hybrid V6 before the next LS debuts, so this doesn't surprise me

 

   I will be, no, the LS WILL DEFINITELY have a hybrid V8 engine by 2009. Period. That's done.

 

   EVERY Lexus (or 'Yota) will go Hybrid within 5 years.

 

   The LS will extend it's leadership as the most efficient gas V8 luxury car in America, if not the world. I predict Corolla economy (32-35MPG) from a 400HP V8 hybrid, selling for around $85k in 2009!

 

   It seems Lexus plan is to introduce something new to the GS every 18 months, a sound scheme. New design, then new hybrid model, then new V8, then V8 hybrid.

 

   The looks disappoint, but should carry it until the hybrid forces renewed interest.

 

   And I vote detuned 3.5 in Sienna over a full-bore 280HP. AND a hybrid 3.0 by '07.

 

   DrFill