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Comments
Everything went well until I had to make a modification to one of the rear hanger brackets, Borla packed two of the same type brackets. After two calls to Borla to confirm that they did not include a part, I knew what had to be done. This slowed my job down by over an hour. But after 3 plus hours the job was done. If I had the right bracket, the job would have taken two hours. Try drilling into this brittle cast steel, you need good drill bits.
The instructions should have been better, they probably expect that if you do not know what you are doing you should not attempt this installation. The performance shop I purchased this from wanted $200.00 to install but advised it is not a hard job. Of course to them this is not hard, they put these on every day.
Removing the factory exhaust system's rubber grommet hangers and the rear flange is a little labor, not hard but requires a little effort. The Borla system goes together really well, the clamps need 32 - 35 ft. lbs of torque. Had to lower the spare tire for clearance to tighten a clamp. Put everything together with a loose fit to be sure everything is correct, then tighten the four clamps and front flange.
The result of this installation is an outstanding sounding and great performing system. I only have 520 miles on my truck so I did not push the rpm's over 4000. The response at the low end is immediate, you can really feel the difference. Borla claims a 7 - 10% HP and torque increase, I'm sure I am getting all of that. Can't wait until this is broken in after 1000 miles, then I will take this for a real drive.
The Borla free flowing system with its deep throaty sound may not be for everyone, it does draw some attention. But you will not get this added performance without this very good sound.
Just a suggestion....If quiet is what you want, you do not want this Borla. The factory exhaust system does a good job keeping this truck quiet. But if you like the sound of what someone posted earlier about the Borla ''what a V8 should sound like'', then this may be the upgrade for you. It is not loud, it sounds good.
And I will post if I have any sulfur odors. The rear tail pipes push the exhaust away from the truck, much better design than the factory set up. If the side port exhaust is the answer to fix the odors, then this modification should be easy for Toyota to do.
Sprayed some WD40 on the hanger tips and they went through tight but much easier. When you get to that step it will be obvious.
Also used bungie cords to hold the rear pipes up while aligning the system before tightening.
1) What legal obligation does Toyota have to correct the situation?
2) What recourse does a buyer have while the vehicle is in full warranty?
3) Has anyone received any SUBSTANTIVE reply from Toyota as to what they intend to do?
4) Does the government have any jurisdiction in this area?
It seems totally unbelievable that you can spend over $30,000. on a supposedly benchmark vehicle and be subjected to this kind of mess. Hell, I can get the same smell for free by sitting next to our city severage treatment plant. I wonder if that is where Toyota is manufacturing the 4Runner.... Any response will be appreciated.
Kinda like talking in circles.
I tried the Borla exhaust system. It didn't help.
I have reported it to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. No response yet.
I tried trading it in on something else, but the $8500 loss makes me sick.
I guess the next step is arbitration and Lemon Law proceedings.
I am like you... I could use some help with this situation.
I know that this is not a real solution, but it might make your life a little easier while you wait for the US to go to low-sulfur fuels in 2005. There are a host of other short-term fixes detailed in back posts here, including sealing off the back vents entirely.
Best of luck.
tia,
metmdx
If you use recirculate you will be more likely (very likely?) to bring exhaust into the truck through the back vents - if you have the sulfur problem you will smell it, if you do not have the sulfur problem you will not smell it.
The sulfur problem will end in 2005 when all gas in the US is low sulfur. The exhaust entering the truck through the rear vents will not end unless Toyota redesigns the exhaust/vent system, the probability of which is vanishingly small.
> cabin air on recirculate
> cabin air with recirculate off
> back window down
> all windows plus back window and sunroof open
> accelerating hard and coming to a stop
this truck to date has no odor problems.
Have only used premium gas, the last fill up with Sunoco 94. With the Borla exhaust that was installed last week, I may never have this concern. Hope this has nothing to do with the seasonal reformulating of the fuel, will know for sure in the spring.
Before purchasing I was told by Toyota service technicians to use premium fuel. They both advised that the few people that have had odor problems with a variety of vehicles at their dealership were using low octane discount gas.
Maybe the fuel quality (sulfur content) is a regional problem. I have talked with a few folks that own new 4Runner's and only one person has had a concern with the odor. But that person is not going to give up the truck, not when everything else is near perfect. Maybe he was using the discount gas??
Check octane recommendation:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- - - =20044runner_s
What brand and grade of gasoline are you using?
I am using Sunoco 94 in my 04 AWD V8 with no odors at all. After 28 days of ownership mileage is 1258.
Read somewhere that Sunoco was a low sulfur fuel so I decided to use it. With the Borla system, this truck is a rocket, the premium fuel probably does not hurt so I will stay with it. Decided not to experiment and try to create the odor by using regular grade 87 or another brand.
Anyone using a regular grade with no sulfur odors?
I don’t care about Borla. If the fix were that easy, Toyota would have made the change. For the wannabe “to fast to furious” speed junkies, the performance increase from the new exhaust is not noticeable.
I think highlander7 said it best under #.594
"The folks that are getting this sulfur odor into their cabin have a problem that Toyota needs to correct."
From the looks of it Toyota intends to do nothing. I guess they did teach their service managers how to get a stupid look on their face whenever someone brings up the problem.
How appropriate is it that the 4-runner shows up in the worst category in consumer reports for the first time in forever. If everyone fills out their consumer reports forms next year, the 4-runner could end up being rated worse than this year.
Check this one out:
EG003-03 FEB 03 Exhaust System - Sulfur Smell
I didnt notice t`hat being their a few months ago, I am sure I overlooked it.
If they weren't corrected at midyear are the 2004's V6 and V8's have a problem?
TIA
I own 2004 4 Runner SR5 V-6. i have experienced this sulfur smell 2-3 times, when i was using 87 octane Chevron. 5000 miles uptill now and for the past 2500 miles i am using 87, 89 octane Shell. No sulfur smell since then. i am happy to some extent. For exhaust in cabin, dont use recirculation too often.
Just take it easy, other SUVs smell too.
Good post.
Maybe the problem is the manufacturer of the fuel. Have driven 1620 miles and have been using Amoco Ultimate 93 and Sunoco Ultra 94 with no problems. Amoco Ultimate has 30 ppm sulfur content, the regular and midgrades have a higher sulfur content.
lpm141,
Are you using a regular grade of gas? This is good news, the problem went away after 7500 miles.
Sounds like it has more to do with the engine design or the vent placement.
Several posts here implied that it was the V6 or V8 engines only that have the sulphur problem. Not true, as many 03-04 Corollas have it, and are famous for it, and of course the Corolla does not have a V6 or V8 engine. After much research I believe it is the "new tech" catalytic converter. When my shop changed the whole exhaust system and cat converter they of course put in the same kind so there was no improvement. My next step (unless I sell the car first) is to get an old-style converter put in, if they will do that.
BTW...A large majority of fellow Runner owners that I see have the Borla or TRD, same thing, as their exhaust. A local dealer sells the setup from the port, where I got mine. So maybe it is just a regional phenomenon.
Anyway, I haven't yet read all of the posts here and don't know if anyone has come up with a solution but I thought that I'd post this just to let you know that the old 4-runners can stink too...Be careful with repairs, I spent close to $1K trying to diagnose and solve the problem with no progress.
In all honesty, I don't know what kind of problem we're dealing with here. The smell has kind of changed; it doesn't smell purely of sulfur anymore, it kind of smells like a hair salon, like the chemicals they use to do perms. It's weird and it concerns me greatly.
Look for Toyota to do something shortly regarding the sulfur issue, by the way (I have this from an inside source).
Test drive your vehicle and see if it has a bad smell. If it does, don't buy it. Bet it doesn't.
Buy a vehicle without a test drive and you get what you get.
Granted, its not as bad as some of the owners, but its still annoying. I usually keep the back window shut during driving and leave the ac on (recirc off)and this seems to prevent the smell from entering the cabin (most of the time). I usually end up gagging if I have to go take something from the rear after stopping.
I have been considering a tail pipe extension. rcgator, Thank you for posting that it has not worked. I can avoid wasting my time and money.
I have driven 2150 miles using Amoco Ultimate 93 and Sunoco Ultra 94 with no problems. Amoco Ultimate has 30 ppm sulfur content, not sure what Sunoco is but understand it also has a very low content vs. the other brands.
I used Mobil and Exxon in my 2002 4Runner and never had a problem with odor. After reading the negative posts in this forum and discussing with various owners I decided after purchasing my 04 Runner that I would use a low sulfur grade gas. Now that I have broken in my truck with known low sulfur grade gas I may try (test) a couple of tankfuls of Mobil or Exxon. My wife uses Mobil in her Avalon with no problems, not sure if my ultra low emission 4Runner will act the same with Mobil?
If you do change brands it may take a few tankfuls to eliminate the odor. It may be worth a try, sure hope this works!
As far as eliminating the odor by changing to low-sulfur gasoline, running the truck on the highway with some decent acceleration bursts will go along way toward cleaning the catalyst.
Ironically, tonight I jumped on the highway and got a whiff of exactly that smell. I looked in front of me, gunned it and caught up to the vehicle that was entering the highway in front of me.. to my dismay, it was a 4Runner. Hopefully not a bad omen.
xgrid, I can't say for sure if the extension never works, but it did nothing for us.
BTW, can you say any more about your experience? Did the extension change the intensity or frequency of the odor inside? Do you have any idea how long the extension was, and whether it now goes out the side or still to the rear?
Thanks again for making the attempt.
No, neither the intensity not the frequency has diminished at all since the extension. The techs. keep telling me it's not sulfur because it doesn't smell strictly of rotten eggs, but kind of a rotten egg/perm solution mix. Does this sound totally insane, or does anyone know what I'm talking about?
The person I have been dealing with (I don't really want to divulge names or anything, but he is definitely in the know inside Toyota) told me that Toyota will be replacing the catalytic converter and another part, I'm sorry I can't remember what it was called, early this year. I'm sorry not to be able to say more, but I don't want to get into any details because I am still dealing with Toyota to try to reach some kind of agreement regarding this truck. And it's not just 4Runners, it's also Sequoias and several others. I don't know if it's going to be a full-blown recall, or a per-case type situation, but something will be done soon.
I really wish we could get this taken care of quickly.
SULFUR-LIKE SMELL FROM THE EXHAUST SYSTEM (Porsche Technical Bulletin)
Contributed by: Ray Calvo
(For all models)
A sulfur or rotten egg smell might not indicate any problem with the vehicle, but is likely a fuel problem. Sulfur found in gasoline is normally converted via combustion and the catalytic converter into sulfur dioxide (SO2). Under certain operating conditions (when engine is running rich, such as heavy acceleration or under a heavy load), hydrogen sulfide (H2S) might be formed instead, which gives off the sulfur/rotten egg odor. To what extent this occurs depends upon the sulfur content of the fuel and the operating condition of the catalytic converter.
If a car is exhibiting this phenomena, first thing to do is to run an engine diagnostic to ensure that the mechanical and fuel systems check out OK. If no problems are found, it is then advisable to switch gasoline brands.
Porsche has noted that if there are no problems found in the engine or fuel/emissions equipment, replacement of such components as oxygen sensors or catalytic converters will not reduce the smell, and will therefore not be considered a warranty matter.
We're long past common sense explanations of this problem, and these guys don't want to believe that every other manufacturer has vehicles that give off a sulphur smell at times...
I gave up on this many moons ago.
But hurry and call Toyota to let them know this isn't a problem for you; maybe they won't implement the fix they have proposed.
People keep eluding to this fix that is coming out, where did you hear it from?
I have ranted now you can flame.
I think it is clear that not everyone agrees that sulfur in the gas is the problem.
Also, some people cannot seem to keep the smell our of their vehicles no matter that all the windows are closed and their a/c is on fresh air intake.
Obviously, they feel it is Toyota's problem and not a generic sulfur-in-the-gas problem.
I have been posting the past month on why I believe my 4Runner does not have the sulfur odor. Either my truck is one of the many that does not have the problem or it is because of the low level sulfur gas the truck has been using since new. I along with some others have advised people to try a low sulfur grade gasoline, have no idea if any of these folks considered this.
My dealer's Service Manager advised me to use a good grade of premium gas and to stay away from the discount brands. He would not mention brand names, possibly for legal reasons?
I'm guessing that Toyota is planning to change one or more of the catalysts. There are four on the V6s and 3 on the V8s. For example, there are reports that adding nickel will prevent the formation of the stinky sulfur compounds in the converters. That might reduce or eliminate stink, but doesn't change the problem of getting exhaust gases in the cabin when on recirculate.
Thanks for your reports in any case. Please let us know what you learn from here on out.
Just another "what if it helps" idea. I think popular consensus is that the interior smell is caused by the air being drawn back into the cabin through the rear vents (whether caused by recirc mode or other)What if somebody were to take 1-2 pieces of some of type of dryer ducting or PVC pipe or something like it and route it to the front of the vehicle half way maybe by transfer case etc. or up under the hood or all the way to the front behind the grill. I don't think you would need to actually need to "seal" it to the vents but have it at least terminate right by them. This forced ram air effect should provide a source of fresher air and maybe help direct the exhaust away from them.
I know it's not "our" problem or job to fix a design issue but if it helps solve the problem I think it's better than just complaining or threating lawsuits etc. Of course those that can't or don't want to deal with the problem should do what is best for them up to and including getting rid of it whether it's at a $ loss or not.
Another idea is like ????? had done and tape off the vents. You still need some way for the air to escape when doors shut etc. We just changed the brake lights in my Dad's Chevy Express Van, the vents are located behind the taillights rubber flap and all they're about 3 inches wide and 12 long. Maybe they (or another vehicle like it) can be custom fit to go behind a different vertical surface on the 4Runner?