Sulfur Smell from Toyota 4Runner

rcgator

You are right, just because something smells, it does not mean it's toxic. Just like some things that are toxic don't smell (CO). But there is a world of difference between smelling manure and the methane gas produced by cows and routinely breathing in hydrogen sulfide and carbon monoxide. The former is annoying and sometimes even overpowering, the latter is toxic and can lead to real health problems.

I agree that sewing the company on these grounds is pointless, but it doesn't mean it's not a valid concern and a problem that needs to be addressed.

corancher

fl4runner, your experience would tend to support some previous suspicions about the smell coming from the cabin air exhausts and/or the sunroof drains. You said:

"I think exhaust leaks in around the back because if I run with the AC on fresh, the cabin smells clean. So I doubt exhaust is coming in from the front (near the air handling piping) or else I would smell it coming out of my air vents. I strongly suspect it is seeping in from the back hatch (wherever the exhaust circulates around after exiting the tail pipe)."

There might not need to be any problems with door or hatch seals for the smell to get in. For more on this see posts 156 and 275-278 in this thread.

I'm still not sure about the ultimate cause, or why some vehicles smell and others don't, but it will be interesting to see the info from those that plan to try extending/redirecting the engine exhaust. The older 4Runners that I've seen recently, BTW, exhaust to the side.

lpm141

flrunner #443 was a great post and very well put!

tshockey

Have an 03 sport edition with 2700 miles.At about 500 miles i had the smell while pulling into my driveway and stopping.This was using 87 octane gas.I tow a small camper from time to time and fill up with 91 octane for that reason.I have only had that smell the one time in the driveway and now use 89 octane for all driving.My runner was manufacture in July 03.I asked the dealership where i bought mine about the smell and his reply was they had a complaint about 1 month ago but since then the smell went away from that runner also.Just throwing in my two cents.Purchased my runner in MD.

fl4runner

I performed an experiment today when I should have been kayaking on the beautiful water (my day off). I turned the fan on full, put it on fresh, and shut all windows. I wanted to search for air blowing out of the 4runner. I figure that if air is blowing out, then air could get in the same way. I found air blowing out the tire wells of both rear tires. Further investigation and partial removal of the rear bumper exposed vents, blowing air like nobody's business. I was able to remove the covers to the vents, taped the slits shut, and returned them to their location. Now when I have my air on fresh, the truck whistles like crazy. The thing is close to air tight. I feel strongly that the exhaust was traveling back through these vents and getting into the cabin. I will try it for a while to see if I can live with no vent (required for pressure stabilization i.e. for when the last door is shut or the vent is on fresh). If I need to, I can cut a vent and get a grate with a flap, like those used in dryer vents for your house, but smaller. I would place this vent in the engine compartment or other location away from the rear where exhaust can creep in. To prove my point, put your truck on the highest fan setting, open it up to take in fresh air, and make sure all windows and doors are tightly shut. Put your hand behind the rear tire well but in front of the rear bumper cover. You should feel a strong rush of air on both driver and passenger sides. There is a small gap, only big enough to fit your hand, in this space. If you partially remove the bumper cover right behind the rear tire well, you will find the vent I speak of. I also plan on trying that elbow tail pipe extension later. Maybe then I could use my rear window down while driving? Who knows. I will drive over the weekend and call Toyota Monday with my findings if I feel I cured my stink problem.

tacoviva

during my arbitration the Toyota manufacturing rep told me that the exhaust is coming from the rear vents. It was in a previous post. Toyota knows this already. They don't know how or haven't found a cost effective way to fix and may never do so. It's a design oversight by the 4Runner and Seq. team (assuming they use the same genral venting points)

jfeger

Well,
Without seeing the vents, would it be useful to try some directional caps. Dryer vents were mentioned.....something like this in place in the rear vents. The idea is to have the air get blown upwards, so the exhaust raising up past them cant get allowed in. I know I am not being clear, but think of it as an upside down elbow for a second. Put the elbow on the vent, with the open end facing the sky. This esentially would make it so any air/exhaust trying to enter the vehicle would have to come down into the elbow. Since the exhaust is technically warmer than the surrounding air, it should rise safely past the elbow, and not get diverted into the cab.

I know I am rambling, and it isnt clear...but I am sure there is a workable solution with this....

corancher

jfeger, I suspect it would be easier to relocate the engine exhaust outlet tip than to mess with the cabin air exhausts. The air back there is probably pretty turbulent and so you might not be able to depend on hot exhaust rising.

In addition, there has been some speculation earlier in this thread that the smell may be (also?) be entering through the sunroof drain tubes, which leave the vehicle in the same vicinity. See posts 275-278, as mentioned above.

fl4runner has performed some interesting investigations, and they support previous speculation. If one wanted to drive with the rear window rolled down, I'd be inclined to focus on diverting the exhaust to the side of the vehicle, like the previous generation 4Runners.

fl4runner

No smell and I drove around all day. Let me tell you, my cabin is air tight now. Your ears pop if you take in fresh air with fan on high and open or close the window. I can live with this because it's better than exhaust smell and I always use recirculate (no ear popping there). The vents in the rear use very thin flaps of plastic, like tarp used to cover a boat or heavy duty disposable picnic table cloth (plastic). I am sure these flaps get stuck or allow the by-directional airflow. They are very low tech. I taped the vent slats closed with duct tape, worked well. I still plan to use the elbow to redirect exhaust to see if rear window down when driving can become an option. I would really like that, the further away the opening is the less turbulent the air "in your face" is. The sunroof can get very noisy because the airflow over the roof is very high speed (airfoil concept). I may never bother to relocate a vent (to equalize pressure in cabin). My 4Runner now reminds me of an old Toyota Tercel I had in 86, no vents and whistled when I shut the door (airtight vehicle too). I lived with that and had no problems.

Sounds like the rear air vents are definitely the problem. The fix I did is cheap but took me about an hour to do and a little experience in taking stuff apart and putting it back together. You average handy-person can do it but I would not recommend this procedure to someone who doesn't know what a Phillips #2 is. (BTW you'll need one or a socket driver)

fl4runner

The location of the rear vents was a very bad design decision. There is too much turbulence and mixing of exhaust back there. It seems like too much trouble for me to relocate them on my own. I will live without vents. I don't think it will be an issue. If so then I will approach the dealer about it. I bet you Toyota relocates them to the front or mid-section of the vehicle in the future.

In reference to the air leaking up the sunroof drain, I really doubt that could happen. The tube is so small in diameter and so long that minimal airflow takes place. The vents blow air like a hair dryer on medium (each!) The rear vents contribute 99.8% to this problem IMHO. We shall see as I drive my de-stinked vehicle for the next few weeks. Now back to screwing around with the elbow extension project...

fl4runner

I agree with rcgator, sewing Toyota us useless. All we'll succeed in doing is needling their lawyers and maybe if we are funny we'll have the jury in stitches. But with the right evidence we can have this case all sewn up.

My attempt at pathetic humor...

alfster1

Thanks for the tips. I know what I'll be doing after work tomorrow Now, I think I have #2 Phillips somewhere....

rcgator

You know, I noticed that reading back my own message, right after the thirty minutes to make corrections was up. It is pretty amusing, though .

tacoviva

The real fix would be to put a check valve type of vent in the rear. I wouldn't "tape" or seal the vents. They are there for safety, ironically. Again, there is really only a couple of solutions..port the exhaust out in to the slip stream (side exit=Borla) or put check valves in place to allow air out but not in, knida of like an airlock. If you brew beer you know what I mean. Basically, it lets CO2 out and keep all the bad stuff from getting in. Pretty simple, but Toyota should be having the conversations...not us! Good luck to all.

jfeger

You mention check-valves. Without seeing the vents, I wonder if something like a through-hull exhaust flap from a boat would work. They are made of a rubber and do exactly what you are talking about. They let exhaust out when under pressure, but close when water tries to come back in.For that matter, even a flap of rubber or plastic from a cat door hinged at the top of the vent would work.

user777

good job!

of course, you've found something which only mitigates the effects of part of the problem space...

i hope you (or someone else willing to do some "lifting") do try the venting to the side experiment and let everyone know the results. with the vents covered in your car, i don't know how you'll determine if it benefitted the situation at all.

(some of us might remember encountering situations were we were being told to run experiments and when serving the results up to another experimentor after all our hard work, were merely told: "that's fine, now run these different experiments").

oh joy.

ideally you (or someone else) would proceed to the next step - and try to determine, to the best of your ability the root cause of the high concentration of sulfer smell...presumably your vehicle isn't running like others are running. i assume this is true because not all drivers report this problem.

so while you have demonstrated clearly that the location of the vents on the vehicle and the config of the tailpipe results in exhaust gasses being pulled into the cabin compartment...

((and that I think is a VERY important result for other drivers))

...what you haven't uncovered is what is ultimately responsible for the high-sulfer smell to begin with - and that's an important part of the overall equation / experiment, isn't it?

again, assuming the gas formulation / branding / octane / break-in / driving habits arguments didn't hold up in the practical world where you live.

if your car is still producing exhaust with what is apparently a high sulfer content, and while you might now be able to drive without the smell in the cabin (that's good), you might also be driving with a condition which might lead to premature failure of some part of the emissions control system (that's not good)...and let's not forget - your exhaust is now someone else's problem!

ok - so why not pull into an emissions testing center and see if there is something which stands out re: how the emissions system is running? i'm not sure if that would uncover much - but it would be another step i would take in your situation.

if something is blatently off-scale - i'd bring that result to the dealership along with the modified vent configuration. maybe they would be sympathetic and agreable to swap out some O2 sensors, look for indications of rich operation, check for evidence of stuck injectors, incomplete combustion and examine the condition of the CAT convertor.

i don't know why but i'm still hooked (for some reason) on what's happening on the combustion and emissions / controls side.

best regards.

tacoviva

Toyota revealed the location of the vents and identified them as the avenue for exhaust entering the cabin. Furthermore, the sulfur smell does come from the fuel. It doesn't happen all the time and here's why. Under "normal" driving (nominal acceleration), sulfur compounds from the fuel build up inside the catalytic converters as a byproduct of combustion. It remains there because it requires a higher temperature to be burned. Now, when you accelerate hard, the catalyitc converter is heated rapidly thus igniting the sulfur compounds and releasing Oxides of Sulfur.....SO2, HS2, etc.

Again, Toyota knows this so don't beat your head against the wall trying to figure this out. It's already been done. What hasn't been done is a cost effective fix. The best fix is a side port exhaust. The cheapest is a check valve inside the vents. I wouldn't use the flap idea because it adds another moving part that can fail and may produce noise very time you stop and go (depending on the ventilation setup. Look at designs that no moving parts.

fl4runner

User777, I am not as much concerned about the sulphur smell as I was about the fact that exhaust was getting into the cabin. I have been using Hess 87 octane gas and it makes less sulphur smell than the others. But when I accelerate harder it generates a brief smell of sulphur and goes away somewhat quickly. Someone else explained why, gunning it causes a rich burn which creates sulfur dioxide (I think). I see this in all new vehicles to one extent or another. If anybody hears something wrong with the 4Runner exhaust system please post. I blocked my rear vents and I am now happy, Zero stink for me inside the cabin. The location for the vents was really bad, there is turbulent air and exhaust located too close to them. The vents have flaps to prevent backflow, but they are cheap. Maybe they get stuck open, maybe they allow air to backflow before closing completely, maybe they don't seal well to begin with. Either way I taped them shut and am happy with the result. I still plan to try to channel the exhaust to the side like other trucks do.

But I have other 4Runner issues that annoy me. Often my sunroof rattles like a [non-permissible content removed]. It can be very annoying and sometimes quite loud. I heard others complain about it too. That is one where I doubt the dealer will ever get right. The sunroof is very hard to gain access to. I also notice when I steer to one side quickly (hard turn at slow speed usually in parking lots) I hear a rather loud and disturbing "clunk" coming from one of the tire wells in the front. The new 4Runner is a nice vehicle, but boy there are a lot of lose ends to fix. Also have a squeak I have determined is caused by the rear seat latch when it is in the upright position. Drop the seat and put it back, and the noise goes away for varying periods of time, only to eventually return. But that squeak is really minor compared to the rattle of the sunroof!

jfeger

Several people have had their sunroof rattle/headliner rattle fixed without a problem. I think there was even a TSB issued by Toyota for it. Its worth having the dealer take a look at it.

user777

yeah - i'm with you on your focus on your car.

it wasn't ever clear to me if the problems people were noticing was just during heavy acceleration, or at other times...

anyway, i was wondering if a rear vent alternative might be workable in the doors, specifically, seeing that most doors in most cars have holes at the bottom to allow water running down the windows to exit the doors.

then i got to thinking - maybe if there were speaker cavities in the doors, maybe a modification could be made to them as opposed to the firewall?

lastly, that got me thinking - maybe if you close your doors too fast, you might over-stress your speaker cones if your car is exceptionally air-tight???

regards.

tacoviva

I was on my way in to work this morning and a Durango was in front of me. I noticed something between the bumper and the Left Rear tail light moving. I first thought it was another example of shotty work from Dodge. To their credit and upon closer inspection, it was a flap over a vent. I actually watched as it flapped up and down blocking backdrafts in to the vehicle.

Toyota, ARE you LISTENING (reading). I think someone thought of this already and I recommended against it. I still do, but at least Dodge thought about this. Anyway, there it is.

user777

well - noone took the bait w.r.t. speaker cones... that was a semi-serious thing I thought worth consideration if you made your cabin nearly air tight.

the follow-up was going to be - you probably don't need to worry as much about your speakers as you should your ears.

there's got to be other considerations w.r.t. having an air tight cabin.

regards.

jfeger

Heh. Overdrive speaker cones......not likely. The days of paper cones with weak rubber around the frame of the speaker are gone. I doubt the JBL systems have top notch speakers, but even if they are average in today's world they have a neoprene/rubber surrounding with a plastic-ish cone. The speakers could care less about the air. You mention ears.....THATS what I would be worried about. Take these high-end speakers and drive them hard...guess what....speakers move air....and if the vents are closed, the ear drum takes the hit.

My buddy had some subs with cones made from kevlar (spelling?), I am guessing if a bullet cant hurt them, an airtight car wont either.

ohello

I was reading the manual on my new 03 4Runner and noticed something relevant in the A/C section. It says that if you are on a dusty road, you should turn the A/C to fresh to ensure that dust does not enter the vehicle through the rear vents.

This seems to be exactly what so many people have been talking about – that when you have the A/C set to recirculate, air is drawn into the vehicle through the rear vents. Seems logical that if dust can get in, exhaust can too.

It is right there in the manual….

driftracer

swschrad

user777

rogers12

driftracer

rogers12

I just was making a comment on the information in the owner's manual (as stated by ohello). Since they have addresses this issue by warning about dust getting in the cabin under some circumstances, it might be tough to hold them liable for other stuff getting into the cabin in a similar way.

sacstate1

Please, report your Honda's activity in the Honda Pilot section. I am sure your new Honda friends will be pleased to hear of your accomplishments.

My in-laws new Pilot had the power steering pump die after 1,300 miles. Good luck.

You have to change the oil in your diffs at 7,500 miles. Honda uses a clutch pack diff, as opposed to the sturdier Toyota gear driven diff. If you tow, your diff change should be more frequent.

corancher

mylasttoyota, perhaps one problem is your original choice of vehicles. If what you really wanted was a raised AWD minivan, many of us would have directed you to the Pilot in the first place.

Instead you came to this discussion complaining about the smell problem (and your treatment by the dealer) and appeared to take no action on possible fixes recommended by the folks here. Then in post 358 you made an accusation "How many of you people posting work for Toyota?" It seems fairer to ask if you are now working for Honda.

There is apparently a genuine problem with a small minority of 4Runners, but you sure don't seem to be doing anything to help.

The Odyssey-based Pilot seems to be a good vehicle, though I suspect you already know it has some quality and reliability issues if you've read the Pilot discussions here. It is comfortable inside and has great visibility, though it's pretty darned wide for my taste. I drove Pilots a couple of times as I was beginning to shop and learn about the choices out there, and it really isn't the same sort of vehicle as the 4Runner.

I don't claim to speak for others, but I will say I'm not interested in the results of your 5000 mile maintenance. Perhaps your 50,000 mile maintenance, though.

tacoviva

Why is it that some of the folks on here think it's their problem? It's not! This is Toyota's problem and they need to fix it. Yes, they are liable. The fix is already posted here. Install the one way vent, or replace it with a side port Borla exhaust. All the other stuff (tailpipe ext. etc.)is BS. It's a great vehicle, aside from the stink. I'll buy a used one when my Taco wears out, if they fix it.

Kirstie_H

Keep in mind that "liable" is basically a legal term, meaning they are legally responsible, and that hasn't been determined yet!

Has anyone been successful in getting Toyota to assist? Or do they deny the problem?

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

sacstate1

If it is Toyota's problem, I bet they are not up late at night worrying about what 'tacoviva' is thinking and his/her problem. I guarantee you that it is not Toyota's problem when it comes time to send in the monthly payment. I think it is your problem, and a few of the other people you keep categorizing into We vs. Toyota.

I find it quite amusing that you are still here harping on this 'Toyota conspiracy'. You have wasted countless hours, seconds and days of your life beating a dead horse. If you think it is Toyota's problem, guess again. Since you are so persistant in fighting windmills, why not put your good energy to use in overhauling the federal tax code and Medicare? That ought to keep you busy for awhile. Now that is a problem.

tacoviva

Here's why it's Toyota's problem. Ask yourself the following:
What is the root cause of the problem? The root is where the design engineer placed the vents. Toyota said that not me. Who owns the design? Toyota. Since the problem is the design and Toyota owns the design they own the problem. Simple. Now, we (you) are the ones affected by this "problem" and we may own the vehicle, but Toyota owns flawed design.

Well, I don't even own a 4Runner, so it's not my problem. If it's not their problem then Toyota will never fix it, right? We'll see. However, I bet they fix it. Do you really think they'll do nothing? At least by next redesign they'll think "maybe we should put a flap on that vent".

And it's not wasted energy if only 1 person decides not to buy a Toyota because of this. That's a whole bunch of money for a few hours worth of "work".

Furhtermore, how on earth could an owner be liable for this problem? It doesn't even make sense that you could blame the owner for the exhaust getting sucked in to the cabin. Rediculous.

Cheers and good luck.

sacstate1

I don't have a problem, therefore, Toyota doesn't have a problem. Simple.

I drink tap water with too much chlorine in it. I eat peanut butter with USDA approved rodent feces in it. You and I sleep in hotel beds that have human body fluids dried into the carpet, sheets, pillows, etc. Even though it looks 'clean'. You wear clothes that are treated with Formaldehyde during the manufacturing process. yada, yada, yada.

Bottomline, you are exposed everyday to chemicals and pathogens that are just as harmful, if not more, than what you claim to have smelled in your vehicle. Go find the peanut butter forum and complain about the amount of rodent feces and rodent hair in your Skippy. Reading about your constantly broken record vendetta against Toyota is lame.

Didn't you buy a Honda? Go over there.

tacoviva

you can make reference to all those rediculous things mentioned above, but remember what this forum is about. And remember I can write in this forum or any other one here. It's not about the water, PB&J and all the BS you list above. It's about Sulfur inside the 4Runner.

I don't have a vendetta either. I'm an engineer and I recognize where the problem is...the design.

Just because you don't smell it, doesn't mean that it isn't there or you don't have a vehicle with a bad design. I guess your 4Runner has different vents, huh?

I didn't bring up all the other stuff and I stick to the subject so maybe you should take your Jiffy and head to the PB forum, pal. Or stick around and write something meaningful and helpful.

sacstate1

Why don't you take out your frustration by writing a letter to Toyota? Or if you are an engineer as claimed, apply for a job at Toyota. We could use another good engineer designing our wonderful Toyota vehicles.

BTW...I am not your pal.

motownusa

People who have 4Runners with the sulphur smell might also be inhaling something that is far more sinister. I learned from chemistry class that when octane is burned, the major by product is carbon dioxide and a minor trace quantity is carbon monoxide. If the problem is as serious as some owners claim it is you should immedietly press Toyota for a fix. Trust me you don't want to inhale carbon monoxide. It is a dangerous, odorless gas. The sulphur smell might be least the of your concern.

user777

yeah - in a strange way, the sulfer smell is actually alerting owners to the possibility there is exhaust gasses in the cabin.

i find it interesting, if true, the owner's manual actually mentions dust getting into the cabin and recommending use of the "fresh" setting...

i suppose in that scenario, you're never supposed to be driving down a dusty road with another car in front of you.

tacoviva

Well, you made one good point, I'm not your pal. Then again, it was a joke. Lighten up....dare I say pal.

I did write a letter and I'm very happy at my current job.

Be constructive and help the folks here. Enough of the nonsense.

To all the rest of you, you have a right to be concerned.

motownusa

I am not bashing Toyota anyway. They make outstanding products. My parents and I have been driving Toyotas since the mid 1960s. I don't own a 4Runner so I cannot tell how serious the problem really is. All I am saying is that a car's exhaust under no circumstances should come inside the cabin through the vents. Cases can be documented where people have died from inhaling automobile exhaust. Some people have committed suicide that way.

rogers12

It is a fact that under the right circumstances, alot of exhaust can get into a vehicle. These vents just make the situation worse. Imagine the effect of being stopped for a while, with the engine running to get heat, in a snowstorm and having the wind pile up snow behind your vehicle. The exhaust may be kept behind the truck in a small area with little wind available to disperse the exhaust. It doesn't have to be trapped, just protected from the wind. Under this circumstance (and possbly others like it) with the HVAC on recirculate, you may be asphixiated by the CO in the exhaust because of the rear-facing vents. I think they should be relocated.
JMHO

Mr_Shiftright

If the problem were definitely the vents, how can we explain that some vehicles never exhibit the symptoms, even though they have the exact same vents as the "defective" vehicles?

This seems counter-intuitive at any rate.

I'm still leaning to a combination of circumstances that may indeed include the vents but does not rely solely on a vent defect.

At least that's what I can cull from all your comments and my own well-behaved 4runner rental vehicle.

pat84

Maybe a good intermediate fix would be to make judicious use of the re circulate feature in certain conditions.
  The poster who closed his rear air vents, reminded me of my then new 1968 VW bug. It was so air tight it was difficult to close the doors.
   BTW why close both rear vents and not just the right rear one near the exhaust ?

     One possible explanation why some 4Runners stink more than others could be different tolerances. All massed produced vehicles have tolerances to allow parts compatibility. A small per centage may have a combination of parts that make for stinkers. That would also make it somewhat out of control for specific fixes on individual vehicles by Toyota.
      I am a recovering engineer. ;-)

sacstate1

"I did write a letter and I'm very happy at my current job."

But you are an activist! Who cares about money? If your main goal in life is to 'punk' Toyota and potential Toyota buyers by your ramblings than you cannot be fully happy with your current job. You are in this one chat room continuously chatting about a moot point and you don't even own a Toyota 4Runner! What is your definition of an activist? If you really want to enjoy a job, to make the world a safer smell good place, and to protect people from themselves, I say you are a good fit to be an engineer at Toyota.

I am pretty knowledgeable on current events and world reports. I have not run across ANY people who were asphyxiated by their 4Runner parked [non-permissible content removed] end in a snow bank. Sorry to break your bubble, but this is reality.

rogers12

You're right in that it is not only an issue with the vent location. Relocating the vents to the side would potentially solve the problem with exhaust getting into the passenger compartment. The real problem is the smell (hydrogen sulfide) creation in the cat converter.

Part of the problem with the smell creation is related to driving habits. From a link in a previous post, the explanation of sulfate build-up in the cat converter and subsequent release of hydrogen sulfide under the right conditions would explain the smell associated with higher than normal accelerator use followed by stopping. Anyone who consistently smells the hydrogen sulfide in the exhaust may be so consistent in their driving habits that their cat converter is saturated with sulfates and is giving off the hydrogen sulfide at a steady state.

Those who never smell it may either use low-sulfur gasoline or have an engine that doesn't deposit sulfates on the catalyst.

The 24-thousand dollar question is: Why don't the majority of vehicles smell bad? or restated, what is different about the few that smell bad?

It is certainly not only the 4Runner that give off this smell. I was seriously gassed by a V8 Sequoia the other day. This is the only time in my life I have smelled this exhaust. I would have remembered otherwise. I always drive in traffic with outside air coming in through ventilation, so I would notice any car in front of me that smelled that bad.

Sorry, the above is just speculation.

rogers12

You're right in that the majority of the problem comes from the vent nearest the exhaust pipe. When you're driving, the flow of air over the back of the truck will cause both vents to have exhaust gases enter. I suppose one more than the other.

Use of recirculation is a problem for any length of time since the air inside the cabin becomes stale quickly and may deposit water on the windows. Not to mention the problem associated with terrible body odor...

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, let's try to maintain a basic level of courtesy in our responses. I know this is hard in the heat of debate but it's important that we do this.

thanks

Shifty