2013 and earlier-Subaru Forester Prices Paid and Buying Experience

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Comments

  • troutaholictroutaholic Member Posts: 3
    Just started shopping for a 2009 Forester X with AT and premium package in Connecticut. Anyone have any info on deals they have been offered or what they have paid for 2009 Foresters (any model) by Connecticut dealers?

    Thanks,

    Steve
  • akdl07akdl07 Member Posts: 4
    Hi slaterac , were do you live?
    I'm in NYC.
    I ordered my 2009 forester/premium/auto/prez with no options for $23,135 ( inld destination) + tax + DMV.
    You should easily get the same or a bweeter price on yours.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    I live in Delaware. The taxes were included in the price but they "package deal" for 635 was not explained and they had a 800+ package that I have never heard of with mud flaps and I wasn't about to pay for that. They wanted 25,200 and I said no. On top of that when they wanted to offer 1500 below kbb for my fiances car that was the last straw and I walked out.

    Why would I get a subaru for 1000 more than the honda? That wouldn't make any sense.

    For those of you that have done in depth comparisons can you please tell me the difference between the two cars besides the name? Thanks!

    We don't mind waiting until the summer or later to get a new car because I've heard that subaru should have some incentives soon. That's from what I have read on here.

    Also, they wanted to give us an interest rate that was higher than the 4.5% that is offered nationally for the 09 forester.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    Also, I can get the Honda for 23,825 here not including ttl. That is 1000 cheaper to begin with than the subaru dealer here. Not to mention that they looked on kbb and were offering the price. So in all it could be 2500 cheaper.
  • phdhuskyphdhusky Member Posts: 116
    I know I am preparing to get a 09 X with premium AT and I've gotten 22,500, but that's doing quite a bit of work. Should be around 24,300 OTD
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    I would love to see those numbers. The one here isn't selling one for under 25k. They are adding things that aren't even packages online just to get more money out of it. The only way I can see getting one from that dealer, without going to another dealer, would be to go in there and show them all the paperwork and kbb and the invoice and msrp for their vehicle and tell them exactly what I want in the car. The one they had yesterday was 25,200 and that was ridiculous because invoice is 23,500 at most. I might just have to wait until they have incentives and then try and work a deal or go to the no hassle honda dealer down the road and pick up a crv.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We finally caved and ordered one. Blue Limited, PZEV, platinum leather, lots of accessories along with it.

    VIP price was $25.2k, but $1600 Subaru Bucks brought that down to $23.6k.

    We have to wait, but the good thing is that if any incentives appear between now and then they will apply to our deal. :shades:
  • craiglcraigl Member Posts: 12
    Seems steep and out of whack with the rest of the country. I've been getting quotes locally the last couple of days, and the upfront internet prices here are around invoice.

    The best price I got was for just over 300 under invoice on a automatic x premium with lots of add ons (tail pipe covers, cross bars, puddle lights, ipod connector, subwoofer, tweeters, cargo tray, bumper cover, maybe other stuff?) Invoice was 24,100. The dealership offered me 23,750 + ttl.
  • asdf9asdf9 Member Posts: 26
    How's just under 21K invoice for a base forester with a cargo tray and hitch bike rack? And why do they need a driver license to take a test drive. Are you going to run my credit, I asked the salesperson. No, we just use that to verify you can drive in the state. Is that B.S. or is that a legitimate thing. In any case the 2009 drove nice. My test drive stunk and I put only about 8 miles on the car. The automatic shifter has a sport setting, and I didn't get a chance to try that. I haven't felt ABS in like 2 years so that was a shock, and that nasty undercoating burning smell for the first 100 miles. That's annoying. But I'd rather by a 2009 Forester than a Dodge Magnum or any other 'wagon'.
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    phdhusky,
    where do you live? as that might matter. I've seen better quotes here in Colorado.
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Stoner,
    I believe they photocopy your license in case anything happens accident wise during your test drive, they have all your information. Some dealers will ask you to sign a liability waiver.

    Word of warning though. I just read something on identity theft and they recommend that you get that photocopy back from them before you leave the dealer...you never know how they dispose of it or who might have access to it.
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Judging by the general economic forecast...I totally agree they will be offering more incentives next month. I saw a $500 incentive on the 09 forester this month for just a couple days, then it disappeared...not sure where.
    I was checking out used car prices as well as new when I was doing my research. I found I can almost by a new vehicle for the price of a used one...sometimes one 3 years old with 40K...at least that is their asking price good indicator. that is the main reason I'll be buying a new one.
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Hi, slaterac,
    To get the best price be sure to do all your homework first and know exactly what you want and what you are willing to pay, not just the final price, but know the itemized prices as well. Take the time to do all the research, even thougth you do know more than the salesmen. ;-) They may not all come into play, but the more info you have in any negotiation, the better. Determining how much a specific dealer is willing to give up to you could be important.

    Get several internet prices for the exact vehicle you want before you even go into the negotiation. Read some negotiation books before you start if you are unfamiliar with methods and tactics. The worst part of dealing with the car game is that you are negotiating for yourself. However, the dealership puts the salesman between you and himself, the decision maker, giving him the advantage. There is nothing to keep you from doing the same thing. And it would help to keep your emotions, which get tied to the vehicle that you want, out of the game.

    Many times, long pauses can earn you a better deal. I had a dealer come down $1000 and throw in a bunch of stuff worth about $750 recently by hemming & hawing and not really saying anything. If you are too frustrated to do it yourself, there are people out there who will do the negotiation for you and get your price.
  • imm1962imm1962 Member Posts: 11
    I just got an online quote for:
    Year: 2009
    Manufacturer: Subaru
    Model: Forester
    Trim: 2.5X with Premium Package and VDC,AUTO DIMMING MIRROR W/COMPASS AND HOMELINK, PUDDLE LIGHT KIT
    Transmission: Automatic
    Odometer: 0 mi
    VIN: JF2SH63679H7XXXX
    Exterior Color: Sage Green Metallic
    Interior Color: Gray
    MSRP: $24,654
    Invoice Price: $23,066
    The sale price $23,483.
    Doc. Fee $399
    I need the car for the first week of August and I will wait to see if any incentives will be available in next 2 mo.
  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    That's $417 over invoice, which sounds high, and the doc fee of $399 sounds very high. What state are you in?
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Is the Doc fee for title transfer and taxes? Or is it some extra charge from the dealer?
    I agree with pgb, it sounds a little HI. If it is a dealer fee, it is a lot HI. what state?

    Get other quotes.
  • imm1962imm1962 Member Posts: 11
    I'm in Virginia. May be I will go to Fitzmall...
  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    The '09 LL Bean we bought in Austin a few days ago had about $180 in total fees: $50 documentation fee for dealer paperwork (max allowed by state law; they don't have to charge it but they almost always do); and the rest was state fees: title, license and the inaugural state inspection (which lasts two years on a new car). Some people argue against paying the doc fee. However, I figure by the time you get to that point, $50 one way or another is not a deal-killer, especially if you make your deal knowing that extra $ will be on the tab. But $400 sounds like the dealer trying to take you for a ride. Ask them to itemize it for you.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    Sgloon,

    Thank you for your help. I'm going to ask for internet prices right now for the dealers here in Delaware as well as the one in salisbury maryland and see what the prices are like. I bought my car two years ago and was able to get a great price on it from Mazda and now I'm looking at the 09 subaru for my fiance.

    I know how to deal with the dealers and just walk out if I have to but I'm going to do as you suggest and I'm going to print everything out as well and take it into my car so if they question me I'll show them the price on kbb for her car and all that.

    I really like the car and we would have gotten one on Thursday but that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop looking because that's no way to get the best deal possible.

    Thanks again for your help!
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    $417 over invoice sounds good to me since the current price is about $2,000 over invoice. I didn't get to really talk to the dealer one on one because there were family members there as well. I think I might go in tomorrow or something by myself and see what kind of deal I can get. I'm going to go online now though and ask for internet prices.

    Thanks again for everyone's help. I appreciate it!
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    What website do you go to to get dealer quotes for numerous dealers in the area? Or do you call them? I was going to call the one 30 minutes away and then the one in salisbury but I wasn't sure if that's what you all did or not. Thanks!
  • phdhuskyphdhusky Member Posts: 116
    So finally pulled the trigger and got the Forester. As I am graduating this Sunday my parents were up (CT) and we went to look for cars. I knew all my numbers and had my quote but ended up buying a model with a few more options. Got a 2.5X Premium with sport grill, wheel well molding, splash gaurds, rear bumper cover, spoiler, wheel locks for 23200. I thought this was a fantastic price as and it didn't take too long, just a little dealing from my father.

    I passed on the base premium with floor mats, rear bumper cover, and splash gaurds for 22500. So if you are in CT you can def get that or better if you do your hw and get a couple of dealers in the game.

    Harte Subaru is great to work with and the internet service is nice.
  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    Difference between MSRP and invoice is pretty much meaningless. MSRP is just that -- a "suggested" retail price. And the invoice doesn't tell what the dealer paid for the car. I got my '09 LL Bean week before last for $200 over invoice; others are getting even better deals, even below invoice, depending on where they live.

    Most pricing guides I see, including Consumer Reports, suggest that true dealer cost plus 4 percent is fair. I've also seen car-buying gurus suggest you settle for dealer cost plus 3 percent. Of course, these are only guidelines, since lots of things influence what a dealer is willing to take.

    I ran your specs on Edmunds and got the same invoice as you. Consumer Reports shows the dealer holdback to be $705. So the dealer cost should be invoice less holdback, or ($23,066 - $705) = $22,361.

    Allowing for 4% profit to dealer, your cost could be as low as $23,255, $228 less than the quote you got. That's less than one percentage point over invoice, pretty much exactly the same markup I paid for my LL Bean. I hope this information is helpful.
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    The best price quotes are generally on the Internet. Don't ask for a quote until you know exactly what you want. My local Subaru salesman just told me that as a floor salesman, he can't offer the lowest prices offered through his dealership, but the internet people can. Although, at another dealership, I have found a really motivated salesman who seems to have more leeway with dealing who is willing to beat the internet prices, and anyone else. So things might be different depending upon how each dealership operates.

    There are several websites that you can go to to get dealer quotes. A few are:

    Subaru.com - you can actually check each dealers inventory and ask for that car.
    Edmonds.com
    Cars.com
    Autotracker.com
    Invoicedealers.com

    Good luck!
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Your welcome, Slaterac!

    Sounds like you really like this car...just don't let them know how much! ;)
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Don't call them until after you have a bunch of internet prices. In fact, if you aren't happy with the internet prices, you can ask for a lower internet price. ya never get it unless ya ask.
  • victor_pvvictor_pv Member Posts: 13
    To slaterac:
    you can go to subaru.com, then go to "check inventory" or "find a dealer" and you will be shown all the dealers around you post code, from there you can open the dealer webpage, check the inventory, and if it have the model you are looking for, ask for a quote. I did that way, and some of them offered really good quotes for an Impreza WRX I was looking for, though now I am undecided between the impreza and the forester.
    For the forester 2.5X + premium package+fog light and a few more extras (worth about $1000), we have been quoted $23.500+TTL more or less, in the Austin area, and there is still room for negotiation, because a friend and myself could be buying a car each at the same dealer, but definitely, no way I would pay more than that even for only 1 car, and forget ridiculous fees. They should total no more than $200, then the taxes depend on the state you are so you and the dealer have no control, but must be the same in every dealer in the area. I wouldn´t stick to that dealer if you have others at 30min drive. You may be quoted as much as $2000 less, and for $2000 I would drive even a couple of hours. At the end the car is the same, and after you have it, you can service it anywhere.
    Get 3 or 4 prices asking through the dealer webpages, and then go back to that dealer and tell him no way you would pay more than that. If he doesn´t come down, go somewhere else.
    And post here the results ;)
    Good luck!
  • victor_pvvictor_pv Member Posts: 13
    Just a note, you can never know how much profit the dealer can get by selling you a car.
    Apart of some other bonuses, that run on a month to month basis, and on certain models, and particular to only an area, or only a dealer, Subaru has a program called Ascent, and another called Summit. They can be different depending on the area, but this is more or less how they work:
    Once the salesman has sold 3 cars in a month, he can get about 100$ for each car that month, if he sells, lets say more than 5 (the exact number can be different for different areas), then he gets 125$ for each car, for all the cars sold that month. If he sells 7, then maybe 150$, and if sells 10, then maybe 175$ dollars.
    So imagine your salesman has sold 9 cars so far that month, so he would get 9x$150=$1350, but if he sells you one, he gets to the next step, so would get 10x$175=$1750, so by selling you one car, he gets $400 more, apart of other profits they have, like holdback, etc.
    So this salesman knows by selling u that car he gets $400 extra, plus all the others bonuses for that specific car (holdback etc), maybe he is willing to give you those $400, to get all the other bonuses, or maybe he is willing to give you half, lets say $200, that he wouldn´t give you if your car is just the 2nd he sell that month.
    It is impossible for you to know what will he get with that car, and maybe the next dealer 10 miles away, can get even more by selling you the car, so you only know ur best deal by asking several dealers.
    I recommend you not to make any offer until you know the prices of several dealers, because if you try to calculate the price by adding a 4% profit over the invoice for the dealer, and you make that offer, then he will not go any lower, even if he is getting really a 10% profit thanks to that car, he knows you are willing to pay that, so why would he offer a better price?. Better ask for prices, compare them, and then try to get it the lowest the possible, when the dealer doesn't want to go any lower, if you like the price, take it.
    Different dealers in the same city can get different profits in the same car thanks to this programs, and even 2 different salespersons in the same dealer can have a different bonus, so though the sales manager will tell them the lowest they can get, maybe your salersman knows he will get more bonuses with just your car, and can push his sales manager, or give you some add-ons for free. You can not deal with 2 salesmen in the same dealer, but at least can check at different dealers and see what they can offer.
  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    Excellent points, victor_pv. I didn't mean that he should automatically offer 4% over dealer cost (not invoice, btw) and make the sales rep prematurely happy. What I tried to convey was that roughly 4% over dealer cost (or as close as we can get to what that figure is) is closer to a fair price than the quote he got. No doubt lots of buyers would consider even that highway robbery, so certainly, get as many bids as there are dealers in your area and offer as low as you feel comfortable with, and as low as your desire to haggle will let you begin. If the dealer won't even hit cost plus 4%, I'd try real hard to find another dealer. If you can get it for less, great!
  • phdhuskyphdhusky Member Posts: 116
    When I bought my car the reason we were able to negotiate the best deal was because I did my homework and had all the dealers wanting my business. Once you get your internet price you can always work down from it, as we did. Also try asking to speak directly to the manager as when we ask for the manager he quickly responded to our counter offer without having to go back and look at prices again. And yes he told us about the program where if he sold a certain amount of cars he would make an extra 100 on each car, etc. If you push them enough they tell your more info but they still make money from financing, service and such. You just have to be patient and know what you want.
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Have you figured out how to find out what dealer cost (not invoice) actually is?
  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    Sgloon, there is the known information and the unknown. For the known information, use a service such as Consumer Reports' car pricing kit, which doesn't cost much -- check out their Web site. That will tell you the invoice, holdback and any other available incentives or adjustments to dealer cost. The unknown factors, as victor_pv pointed out, are highly variable from dealer to dealer and among manufacturers. Check the recent posts for discussions on that aspect of the horse trade.
  • jverricojverrico Member Posts: 2
    I've settled on the '09 LL Bean model as the one that fits what my wife and I are looking for - I've test driven and researched about a dozen cars and small SUV's and the Forester is the right mix of all the must have items for upstate NY - awd, great safety rating, decent mpg, heated seats, room for kids/cargo, etc.

    However, I am not sure our local dealer is giving us good price quotes - I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts. Here's what we're being offered:

    LLBean with some basic options like all weather floor mats, aero cross bars, side molding, and a few other minor extras, purchase price $26,306. Lease quote is 42 months (?) and 15,000 miles w/$0 down, $439 month. Purchase quotes are 48 mos/$669 month and 63 months (another ?) for $529 month.

    Any thoughts on the lease quote. The residual is @$14,500 (don't have exact #) and I have not been told the money factor but it has to be around 7.2% rate.

    Thanks for any input, help, etc. I want to buy the car, but am not sure about those rates & prices.
  • snowbeltersnowbelter Member Posts: 288
    Take a look at the prices, online, at Vanbortelsubaru, near Rochester. If you're not too far away, your dealer ought to match their prices. Your quote may be a little high depending on whether you are including shipping and what those few "minor extras" add up to. Can't help you with lease numbers.
  • sgloonsgloon Member Posts: 323
    Yep! It is those unknowns which make it harder to deal. I have this gut feeling that there is really a lot more room to play with than we know. Definitely more than I know! I've worked in manufacturing in the past and it amazes me how much markup there is compared to actual production costs.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    Hello All,

    I just wanted to give you the latest information and see what you thought about this. The dealer that I might go see tonight, otherwise this weekend, is offering 1% over invoice, a good trade in value as long as the car is in fair condition (which it is), and a $250 gas card as well as a good finance rate for qualified buyers, I'm hoping we fit that because I don't know what exactly that means.

    What do you all think? I can get the Limited edition (that was the LL Bean before the name change) for under $26,000 and I've told him that if he gives me what we want for the trade in then we will get the Limited edition.

    Thanks for all your comments. I'll check back in a little bit as I have a meeting to attend.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    Pqb0517,

    Thank you for all your help. Can you look up a LL Bean edition for me as well. I unfortunately do not below to consumer reports. Also, The deal I was getting was after the trade in. They really wanted 25k+ for the car and I said no. So they really wanted $2000 more. Look at my last post and tell me what you think of that deal.

    They are going to give me the papers and show me the invoice price of the car and add 1%.

    Thanks again for all your help.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    sgloon,

    Thank you for all your responses. I talked to an internet dealer about 40 miles away and he gave me the offer I posted before. He said he doesn't play any games because he realizes that I'm not a person that would just walk onto the lot since I live 40 miles away. Let me know what you think of that deal.
  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    Several are asking for opinions as to whether a given price for a certain model with certain options is a good deal. Without knowing exactly what options or accessories you're talking about, it's impossible to answer, but I would like to suggest two ways you can get this information for yourselves. First, the free way: Go to Edmunds.com and spec the vehicle with exactly the stuff you want. It is very easy and steps you through the process. Choose your trim level (Premium, LL Bean, etc.). Then follow the big red boxes. It will tell you MRSP and invoice for everything. It won't tell you the dealer holdback, apparently. I have not found the Edmunds "TMV" cost to be very useful.

    Or you can go to Consumer Reports' Web site and buy a new-car pricing kit, which lets you choose options and see prices and CR reviews for as many cars as you want for three months. You can compare them side by side and save or print the reports. This will tell you the dealer holdback and other incentives. I found the $39 to be money well spent. You don't have to be a member of CR's magazine or full Web site to do this.

    I hope these tips help everyone fish for themselves.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 267,684
    If you are asking... at least include the MSRP..

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    Sales reps will try to flatter you. Ignore it.
    Keep the trade completely separate from the new car deal. Tell them you don't know if you will have a trade-in or not. Once you get a satisfactory deal for a new car cash price, then ask them to value your trade. That lets you compare the two separately. If they want to renegotiate the new car price after they agree to it, leave.
    Keep financing completely separate from the new car deal. Tell them you are financing separately and will buy from them on a cash basis. Again, once you settle on a cash price for the new car, you can ask them to provide financing options for you to compare. They make money on financing too, which is fine, so long as what they offer you is better than what you can get on your own. I found that the current Subaru 4.5 percent financing was much better than other offers I had, even through Costco with my good credit rating. If you don't know your credit rating, you're entitled to a free report from each of the three agencies each year, but you have to pay a few dollars extra to get the important FICO rating.
    You can Google all these topics for more details. Good luck.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    Thank you all for your help again. I think the subaru financing right now is pretty good. I know my rating but I'll have to look up to see who qualifies.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    It's been a little while since my test drive in the Limited edition and since this board seems to be quite I thought I'd ask what the main difference is for those of you that bought the limited vs. the premium model. I know it has leather but my question is was that the deciding factor?

    Another question would be for all those that have purchased a forester what was the deciding factor for you?

    Thanks again.
  • slateracslaterac Member Posts: 85
    Another question. It seems that everyone paid just around 26000 for the limited edition. According to edmunds that msrp and I was wondering if that's true or if edmunds is flawed because I've been offered just under 26000 for a limited and I don't think there were any extras. It says the msrp was 27500. So it might be that it has options that I did not ask about.

    A note: I haven't seen the car yet so I don't know of the options.
  • pgb0517pgb0517 Member Posts: 84
    The differences between the models are neatly summarized here:
    http://www.subaru.com/shop/model_consideration.jsp?model=FORESTER

    For us, the big thing on the LL Bean/now Limited was the power driver's seat. That was an option on the '08 Premium. If it had stayed in the '09 Premium we probably would have bought that instead of the Bean.

    We looked at several small SUVs and even small hatchbacks. Key for my wife: Visibility. All the other SUVs (and most other newer cars) have huge blind spots and sit way too high in back for safety (as evidenced by how many children are being backed over these days). They have little pinched-up windows in the rear. No wonder they need back-up cameras. The '08 Forester is a bit better than the '09 on visibility, but the '09 is still vastly superior to anything else in its class, so we decided early on that if we got an SUV, it would be the Forester. We decided we needed the extra cargo enough to justify the Forester over a smaller hatchback (although we really loved the VW Rabbit). Fortunately, visibility aside, the Forester still is a great value, has good mileage, nice features, great safety and good reliability ratings. We are very happy with our choice.

    Wish list: More features on the trip computer (distance till empty, mainly); softer seats (the '09 is better than the '08 but still could use improvement); rear air vents; body side moldings as standard equipment; and a hybrid model.
  • phdhuskyphdhusky Member Posts: 116
    As I just took delivery today I'm very happy with the forester. I chose it for the safety and good AWD. I also just liked the design of the car. I only got the premium as I just graduated from college and as this will be the first of many cars I don't really need the Limited package. The forester is definatly one of the best CUV's out there.
  • samirataustinsamirataustin Member Posts: 17
    The sales person I was talking to today said that the Subaru 4.5% for 60 months was for folks with credit score of 700 and above. For high 600s, the rate jumps to 5.5%. Don't know the floor for that bracket.

    I have not found anybody else lower than 4.5% for 60 months- local credit unions in general offer better rates than banks here in Austin- the lowest I found was 4.5% for upto 66 months from a neighborhood credit union.
  • samirataustinsamirataustin Member Posts: 17
    Resurrecting an earlier speculation... does anybody have any insight or comment on possible cash incentives from Subaru in June?
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    "... the Subaru 4.5% for 60 months was for folks with credit score of 700 and above. For high 600s, the rate jumps to 5.5%. Don't know the floor for that bracket."

    That bracket ranges from 699-660. You can see which credit scores qualify for which rates here:
    lhttp://www.cars101.com/subaru/rebates.html#rates
  • rpc2rpc2 Member Posts: 2
    Just picked up our Limited (originally ordered LL Bean) after 6 week wait. Our price was $500 under invoice, arranged through one of the dealer's internet managers. That price justified the 65 mile (each way) trip to the dealer.

    One of the key features for us was also visibility, but we also liked the safety, handling, and utility features of the Forester. Didn't really see any viable competition in this class for the features that were important to us. I wanted to like the CRV and RAV4 based on the reviews, but didn't even bother to test drive them after seeing their poor rearward visibility.
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